*** Misconceptions of the SF4 Game System Mechanics - GREAT READ ***

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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    And are you sure about the leniency of the :d: of the shoryuken? I think it's strict, because wouldn't spamming :r: and :df: give out a shoryuken then? Last time I checked, this did not give a srk, but I can't test it right now. But if it doesn't, that means the :d: is a strict input. Also meaning :df: x 3 is not a shortcut for a srk
    There's a bit of ambiguity with diagonals as they pertain to shortcuts and I'm not quite sure what the rules are regarding them. But the :d: on DP's is definitely lenient. It's why you get teleport when you try to do Bison's Ultra from a crouch block position and end on :df:
    Wow, but the rest of your post is perfect. I always wanted to know exactly how many frames the game "remembers" the inputs. Do you happen to know a site where it lists all of these input windows for every move?
    The values I got were actually recorded by noodalls using frame-accurate hardware macros, but you can examine the inputs (in hexadecimal) if you hack apart the files from the PC version. The value for the delay is coded on every input, but I'm not sure if it's a 1:1 relationship between the actual hex value and the with the number of in-game frames. (EDIT: I checked the file and the delay values for SRK appear to be 0x08, 0x08, 0x0C, which translates into 8, 8, and 12 delay frames respectively)
    Oh, and thank you for pointing out the reversal windows. And do you have your source for this also? It's not that I don't believe you; I just want to read up more on what that site/thread has to say. Much props to you.
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7442205&postcount=47
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7621688&postcount=367
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Ughhhhhhhhh, why is Yeb so godlike?! And it was fun playing against you. I hope you like Tiger Uppercuts even more now. :razzy: But you are even gdlk in your knowledge. Thank you.

    And thanks ilitirit as well!
  • a falling mangoa falling mango NO-YOU-CAN-NOT Joined: Posts: 709
    Another extremely common example is when a player tries to walk forward and immediately do a crouching forward cancelled into a hadouken. So, you're giving the game engine the input of :r::d::df::r: + :lp:. As many of you probably know by now, if you try to do this, all you will be getting is a crouching forward cancelled into a shoryuken, NOT a hadouken. That is because a shoryuken has more move priority then a hadouken. The way to avoid the shoryuken and get the hadouken instead is to walk forward, then WAIT (have your stick anywhere except :r: or :df:), and then do the qcf+p. The reason you wait is to have the game engine "forget" that you pressed the first :r: and will not confuse your motion to become a dp.

    You do not have to pause before executing :r:, :d::mk:, :qcf::lp:

    :r:, :d::mk:, :d::mk:, :qcf::lp: will always give you hadou

    EDIT: To clarify, double tap :mk:
    "At least [Vega] was a FUNCTIONAL fagg in ST" - wrrza AV by csphere
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I have one nitpick about your first post: light attacks cannot be plinked into one another effectively.

    Consider the input display of a typical plink:

    B A
    A

    If you timed your link properly, you will get button A and you would think that your plink was effective. However, if you timed the a frame early, A+B will come out. In effective plinks, button A is a stronger attack than button B so that A always wins out when both buttons are pressed at the same time in any other situation.

    Long story short: Zangief will eventually get a whiffed throw if he attempts to plink his low Shorts.
  • LollaffLollaff Joined: Posts: 217
    Great stuff. Could you add something about stuns aswell? I mean how to most efficiently get out of them, if there's a difference between stuns(birds, stars, skulls) etc.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    I have one nitpick about your first post: light attacks cannot be plinked into one another effectively.

    Consider the input display of a typical plink:

    B A
    A

    If you timed your link properly, you will get button A and you would think that your plink was effective. However, if you timed the a frame early, A+B will come out. In effective plinks, button A is a stronger attack than button B so that A always wins out when both buttons are pressed at the same time in any other situation.

    Long story short: Zangief will eventually get a whiffed throw if he attempts to plink his low Shorts.

    But if you're crouching, :lp:+:lk: is like a crouch tech, which gives out a short (because you cannot grab while crouching). So, standing/crouching jab and standing short cannot be plinked. Only crouching short can be plinked.

    But thanks, Jinrai for the post. You're the one I learned much about the 3s game mechanics! :china:
    Oro ftw btw. :rock:


    Great stuff. Could you add something about stuns aswell? I mean how to most efficiently get out of them, if there's a difference between stuns(birds, stars, skulls) etc.

    Oh yeah, I remember finding some info about this. I believe the stun animation of bird, stars, etc. is determined by the last hit that hits them and character-specific. But I'm not too sure; I'm pretty sure Jinrai would know this though. What's the answer? :wonder:
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I'm an idiot. Yeah, there's that whole crouching thing to think about. However, CHAINED moves still cannot be plinked.

    As far as dizzies go, I would imagine they act similarly to 3S in that the game randomly assigns a set number of frames for you to recover without mashing, while each button/joystick input reduces that amount by an additional frame. I doubt that there is any difference between birds, stars, and skulls like there is in ST because IIRC the arcade version only had stars.

    In 3S, the move that stuns you affects the relative severity of the stun. I don't know if that's the case in SF4, but if it is you should be able to notice a difference if you try dizzying with a Jab, Fierce, special move, throw, or special throw several times each.
  • scaryxitedscaryxited Joined: Posts: 16
    So, with Super/Ultra motions the game will remember your inputs for quite a while. So, if you mash every directional input (aka 360's clockwise) fast enough, the game will finally register those 6 (or 5 with the shortcut) directional inputs you need for the super.
    So it basically looks like this:
    :d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf: :r: :df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df:
    *..........................*.*..........................*........................*....

    About this. If the quick string of stick inputs contain the motions for both Goukens counter and ultra does that mean you could simply press p then 3p to get the counter to cancel into ultra? Or does the game forget the prevous inputs once a special comes out? It shouldn't thou since you can do Roes spiral to super with only 2 qcf.
  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    About this. If the quick string of stick inputs contain the motions for both Goukens counter and ultra does that mean you could simply press p then 3p to get the counter to cancel into ultra? Or does the game forget the prevous inputs once a special comes out? It shouldn't thou since you can do Roes spiral to super with only 2 qcf.

    Well given that Akuma is the only character that can cancel into their ultra...
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    About this. If the quick string of stick inputs contain the motions for both Goukens counter and ultra does that mean you could simply press p then 3p to get the counter to cancel into ultra? Or does the game forget the prevous inputs once a special comes out? It shouldn't thou since you can do Roes spiral to super with only 2 qcf.

    Well it doesn't forget the inputs, and I think goukens counter works like this as well: Akuma can somehow cancel his shaku into another special move where the flame from the shaku comes out, and then the other special move executes over top of it. I'd like some one to explain how that one works in the SF4 engine.

    All of akumas special moves can do it, including a flaming dragon punch, super/ultra. The easiest one is flaming ex tatsu = :df: :qcb: :lp:, :lp: :lk: :mk:, where the punch is plinked with the kicks.
  • a falling mangoa falling mango NO-YOU-CAN-NOT Joined: Posts: 709
    snip

    Could be an Akuma specific glitch or something. Just like how Ken's CH SRK leads to full Ultra juggle.
    "At least [Vega] was a FUNCTIONAL fagg in ST" - wrrza AV by csphere
  • fegisfegis The Wan Ton Boxer Joined: Posts: 116
    I can only neutral rep too so ill rep later but big thanks from me!!! very useful and well thought and laid out guide.

    People's Elbow, i love reading about it haha.
  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    Checked and couldn't find it mentioned here already, so...

    The odd properties of landing frames seem to allow a character such as ryu to do a triple option select. The 3 options are jumping attack connects/j.wiff, dp/j.wiff, block. The later two options depend on how fast the opponents invincible move can hit. (This is reproducible within training.)

    The theory as I understand it suggests that a wiffed jump-in still allows trip guard. (I guess after the first 2 frames?) A fast (but slower than 3 frame) invincible move would hit the trip guard, resulting in block status. A slow invincible move, or backdash, would only come out after trip guard is ended, allowing the dp with invincibility to come out.

    I'm not 100% sure about the explanation above. So I'd appreciate a myth check.

    And yeah, that's really weird about lightning legs. Perhaps it has special chainable status that's just not reported in frame data? (Such as ryu standing lk chaining from other chainable lk/lp normals, but not being chainable itself.) There might be a whole column of data missing from what we have that's usually redundant.

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    Checked and couldn't find it mentioned here already, so...

    But the game itself doesn't track inputs and moves at any speed other than 30 frames per second. All the other frame data you see works on this. So the charge time would actually be just under 2 seconds. The amazing uses that charging moves are sometimes put to depends solely on how soon the player is able to start charging again after they've lost it.

    The information you posted is slightly incorrect. 2 seconds is way, way more time than you need to charge anything.

    This whole idea that the game runs at 30 frames per second, causing charge moves to require nearly 2 seconds of charge, is entirely bogus. I'm not hating on you, but just the fact that people would make that leap without actually testing it is the very reason dumbfucks still think :df::df::p: works as an SRK input.

    Took me all of, literally, 15-20 seconds (the AI kept hitting me so I had to get him at a range in which he'd just sit there so I could time it properly) to debunk that claim.

    Clock hit 80, I held back, just as the clock hit 79, press forward and punch, Sonic Boom. No, charging doesn't take anywhere near 2 seconds to complete, it's actually just under 1 second.
    Well it doesn't forget the inputs, and I think goukens counter works like this as well: Akuma can somehow cancel his shaku into another special move where the flame from the shaku comes out, and then the other special move executes over top of it. I'd like some one to explain how that one works in the SF4 engine.

    All of akumas special moves can do it, including a flaming dragon punch, super/ultra. The easiest one is flaming ex tatsu = :df: :qcb: :lp:, :lp: :lk: :mk:, where the punch is plinked with the kicks.

    This is, essentially, kara-cancelling a special move into another special move. As you mentioned, yes, Gouken's counter can do so as well. I wonder what other special moves are kara-cancellable like that..
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    Checked and couldn't find it mentioned here already, so...

    "And since the game engine runs at 60 frames per second, it actually requires less than a second for gaining the charge."

    Technically, frame rate of the game is 60 frames per second as far as visuals are concerned.

    But the game itself doesn't track inputs and moves at any speed other than 30 frames per second. All the other frame data you see works on this. So the charge time would actually be just under 2 seconds. The amazing uses that charging moves are sometimes put to depends solely on how soon the player is able to start charging again after they've lost it.
    This is completely wrong.

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=178322
  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    Hmm, fair enough. Editted.

    Perhaps a note to indicate that certain information widely available is actually invalid may help this from happening in the future.

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    Hmm, fair enough. Editted.

    Perhaps a note to indicate that certain information widely available is actually invalid may help this from happening in the future.

    It doesn't help, certainly, that they label it as 2 seconds pretty much everywhere. 55 frames isn't even the universal charge time: Vega only requires 42 frames for his charges (according to SF-Wiki, which I feel is valid, given that you can df.rh > rh.st, which is pretty ridic).
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    I'd like some one to explain how that one works in the SF4 engine.
    It's a kara cancel, and it's not limited to Akuma. Ken kara cancel can his air EX-Tatsu into a normal tatsu so that it maintains the arc of the EX version.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Have you ever noticed that if the opponent uses a 2-frame (ie 1+1) super within its initial hitting range, you can block on reaction but you can't press any buttons?

    My theory is that super freezes cause button inputs to drop for 2 frames. Try it against Chun's and Sagat's supers, both of which are 2 framers. If you're point blank, you can block or let go of block, but you can't do anything that involves buttons on reaction to the super freeze. Against characters with 3 frame supers like Dhalsim, though, you can block and let go of block and also do things that involve buttons.

    For some reason you CAN do buttons against Ken's super even though the jab version is listed at 2 frames, so that's weird. James Chen guessed that maybe that means that the frame data is wrong.
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  • gilleygilley 3D Aminator Joined: Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    For some reason you CAN do buttons against Ken's super even though the jab version is listed at 2 frames, so that's weird. James Chen guessed that maybe that means that the frame data is wrong.

    People suggest the frame data is wrong all the time. The best way to prove it is correct(or wrong) is to test it against a bunch of other situations. Ken's LP super for example, you could test against all other attacks that leave the opponent at -2 and see if you can hit them. Then test against all attacks that leave them at -1. There's lots of these wierd situations for specific moves in SF4. Guile/Fuerte's super is one of them. They can punish certain moves on block, they normally shouldn't be able to punish according to the frame data. Have you ever wondered why Ryu can punish a point blank blocked low tiger shot from Sagat with his c.rh but not his c.forward? They both have the exact same startup and it looks like Ryu's foot is in range for both attacks. Testing Ryu's c.rh and c.forward against other situations show that the frame data is correct. SF4 is just really really wierd.
    It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. --Mark Twain
  • Sh33pSh33p New Age of Rubbish Rifling Joined: Posts: 407
    Out of interest, is there any difference between the PAL versions of the game and the NTSC versions, frame data wise, since one runs at 50Hz and the other 60Hz?
  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    People suggest the frame data is wrong all the time. The best way to prove it is correct(or wrong) is to test it against a bunch of other situations. Ken's LP super for example, you could test against all other attacks that leave the opponent at -2 and see if you can hit them. Then test against all attacks that leave them at -1. There's lots of these wierd situations for specific moves in SF4. Guile/Fuerte's super is one of them. They can punish certain moves on block, they normally shouldn't be able to punish according to the frame data. Have you ever wondered why Ryu can punish a point blank blocked low tiger shot from Sagat with his c.rh but not his c.forward? They both have the exact same startup and it looks like Ryu's foot is in range for both attacks. Testing Ryu's c.rh and c.forward against other situations show that the frame data is correct. SF4 is just really really wierd.

    Perhaps it is some sort of hitbox glitch? As opposed to inaccurate frame data.

    But I guess this isn't the thread for speculation...

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • chopperbyrnechopperbyrne Joined: Posts: 1,242
    Out of interest, is there any difference between the PAL versions of the game and the NTSC versions, frame data wise, since one runs at 50Hz and the other 60Hz?

    For close to ten years now, PAL SD televisions have been capable of running at 60Hz.
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  • DorqueDorque PSN: Dorque Joined: Posts: 13
    Thanks Richard Nguyen, this is really great information.

    I want to add something that I discovered and am hoping for a discussion. I stumbled upon a thread somewhere that mentioned you can dash out of a focus attack by pressing :qcf::qcf: but I tried it and it doesn't work so I went experimenting and found out something interesting.

    To dash, you press :r::r: or :l::l:. You can't dash by pressing :r::l::r:. However, from experimenting, I found out that you can dash by pressing :r::l::r: during a focus attack. From this I tried dashing out of a focus attack by pressing :db::qcf::db::qcf: and it worked.

    I was testing this with Ken and Ryu and in both cases after the dash, all I needed was to press :3p: for their ultras to come out.

    So that means you can FADC to ultra with any characters who have a :qcf::qcf: ultra by doing:
    FA, :db::qcf::db::qcf:, :3p: or possibly FA, :qcf::db::qcf:, :3p:

    Correct me if I'm wrong.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Have you ever noticed that if the opponent uses a 2-frame (ie 1+1) super within its initial hitting range, you can block on reaction but you can't press any buttons?

    Hello, UltimateDavid. :wgrin: Very weird findings you got there. Just tested it out myself and it holds true. One of the mysteries of sf4 I guess.
    snip

    I just tested it and Ken's LP super is indeed 2 frames startup. Also, I previously read about your tests with Guile's MK super against Boxer's dash punch. Another weird thing.

    Oh, and I think Ryu can't punish the low tiger shot with the cr. mk because he gets pushed too far causing the first few active frames of the cr. mk to miss Sagat's hitbox. I have tested this out before and it just looks and sounds like the cr. mk is making contact later than usual.
    snip

    I probably do not have the correct technique down, as I have been messing up like 99% of the time doing your way. :rofl: I do believe it's true though with my few successful attempts.

    The concept of the unusual dash inputs during the focus attack has also been brought up by Javits in the Boxer forum regarding a backdash to ultra to punish air tatsu's. I guess the focus attack allows to "remember" the inputs for the dash longer. Another mystery. :sweat:



    But sorry guys for not contributing to this thread recently. I wrote a section for kara's like last week but it got deleted as my browser closed. :arazz: Shoulda wrote it in Word. Haha, well I will probably be writing that up again. Dang, I just remembered something else I was gonna do but I forgot...
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    Perhaps you should add the misconception about DP FADC. It's actually -1 on block.

    http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?184624-FADC-Frame-Advantage-Disadvantage-Possible-to-Calculate
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    this is like all crazy to understand
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I argue that the :df: :df: :p: shortcut works. It's just not that good compared to a 3 move shortcut. My theory is that the :df: :df: registers as :r: :d: :r: :d:, with the second " :r: :d: " counting as a :df:. The timing needs to be faster than the 3-move version, or the normal dp for some reason though.

    I guess what I'm saying is, if the shortcut doesn't work how come it does?
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    I argue that the :df: :df: :p: shortcut works. It's just not that good compared to a 3 move shortcut. My theory is that the :df: :df: registers as :r: :d: :r: :d:, with the second " :r: :d: " counting as a :df:. The timing needs to be faster than the 3-move version, or the normal dp for some reason though.

    I guess what I'm saying is, if the shortcut doesn't work how come it does?

    It doesn't work. Diagonals are unique inputs. They do not have horizontal or vertical components (in the same way that a horizontal has no vertical component and vice versa). The reason they appear to is because that is the way the game is coded. The motion for a DP is hardcoded as 3 inputs. There's no way you can get around that.

    If :df::df: appears to works for you, then you must have inputted another motion somewhere along the line. Try doing it Training Mode with input display on. You'll see it's impossible to get a DP from just two directional inputs.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    yo guys... anybody can give me a hand on where I can find information about armor breaking??

    I mean, why some moves that are not armor breakers, sometime breaks your armor (when focusing)???

    By the way the info about the landing frames is true cause I have noticed that when I hit somebody's jump ins on Blanka's slide (df.HP).... if the opponent starts any move when airborne he cannot block, however if he jumps in without any move, he blocks it!!
  • a falling mangoa falling mango NO-YOU-CAN-NOT Joined: Posts: 709
    ^ When performed as a REVERSAL, some - if not all (?) - specials break armor
    "At least [Vega] was a FUNCTIONAL fagg in ST" - wrrza AV by csphere
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    With Reversal, all specials except projectiles become Armour BReaking
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    -If you attack in air and then attempt to attack during your landing frames, the attack will be buffered and performed as soon as the landing frames are over.
    I don't think this applies to special moves. From what I can tell, if you attack in the air and it whiffs, the game allows you to buffer the motion and button press before you land (I'm not sure how many frames before you land though), and the special will execute on the second landing frame (that's why you can get hit by sweeps). If however your aerial attack connects, then you can buffer the motion, but the game will ignore any button presses until the first landing frame. In either case, the special will execute on the second landing frame.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    With Reversal, all specials except projectiles become Armour BReaking
    ^ When performed as a REVERSAL, some - if not all (?) - specials break armor

    thank you guys... you helped me a lot...

    anyway, I still hate this function! hahahah....
  • ky0faceky0face Joined: Posts: 271
    Horizontal charge motions usually only have leniency set on :l:, will the :r: is usually set to strict, or it's replaced with a lenient :uf: (I'm not 100% sure, but leniency on diagonals prevent mirror motions, so :db: :df: won't work for charge motions, but :db: :uf: or :db: :r: will. But again I'm not 100% sure). .

    Not sure if anyone's touched on this, but I'm just gonna verify. With Chun-li I cancel cr.mk into super like this:

    :db::d::df:+:mk::db::r:+:mk:

    However, if I used :df:+:mk: at the end, the super wouldn't come out.

    So when charging for a move there's leniency on the charge input (could be :db:,:l:,:ub:) but the input to release the move must be a true horizontal. Specials will come out when the last input is a diagonal that is also registering a horizontal. Like for her ultra:

    :l::r::l::r::df:+:lk::mk::hk:

    Don't know if that helps, just sayin.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    The input leniency for the generic charge :l::r::l::r: super motions are lenient for the first three directions but not the last :r: (which is restricted to :r: or :uf:).

    Input leniency for charge special moves depends on the move itself. So, Blanka's horizontal ball is a strict :r: while Dictator's scissor kicks is a lenient :r:.
  • ky0faceky0face Joined: Posts: 271
    The input leniency for the generic charge :l::r::l::r: super motions are lenient for the first three directions but not the last :r: (which is restricted to :r: or :uf:).

    Strange, I can't pull out an ultra with :uf: at the end without there first being a :r: then :uf:...

    So just from testing it, I guess it may be Chun-li specific where using an :uf: motion to finish an ultra or super won't work.

    This works :l::r::l::r::uf:
    But I can't get this :l::r::l::uf: or this :l::r::l::df: to work.

    Also note that her kikouken has a lenient back charge motion but is strict to :r: when releasing, like Blanka. The characters that have a lenient :r: are lucky. I wonder what boxer is like.

    [edit] Sorry, I should clarify that I've only tested charge moves with Chun-li, I'm interested to check everyone else out later though.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    I think you can end a special on any motion as long as the button press follows a legal end direction within a certain number of frames (and of course you're in a state to perform it). These frames are hardcoded onto each motion itself. So basically, it seems like the end motion for a horizontal charge move has to be :r:, but you can input anything afterwards as long as you press the button quickly enough. That's why pre-charging works.

    :l:, :r:, :l: + :p:
  • ky0faceky0face Joined: Posts: 271
    I think you can end a special on any motion as long as the button press follows a legal end direction within a certain number of frames (and of course you're in a state to perform it). These frames are hardcoded onto each motion itself. So basically, it seems like the end motion for a horizontal charge move has to be :r:, but you can input anything afterwards as long as you press the button quickly enough. That's why pre-charging works.

    :l:, :r:, :l: + :p:

    That's what I said earlier, for the special to come out, your input can be :uf: or :df: at the end as long as it immediately follows a true horizontal :r:, but from testing, ending only in a diagonal (no horizontal before that last input) will not work.
  • Severin-XSeverin-X Joined: Posts: 1,872
    I am sorry if this is stupid and has been touched on but there is a ton to read here. Am I correct then that you can never safe jump against Ryu no matter what since his DP comes out in three frames? So any jump attack would actually be hit? So if I throw and go for a jump in any attack I will eat SRK? Only neutral jump timed properly would be "safe"?
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