*** Misconceptions of the SF4 Game System Mechanics - GREAT READ ***

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  • a falling mangoa falling mango NO-YOU-CAN-NOT Joined: Posts: 709
    snip

    Could be an Akuma specific glitch or something. Just like how Ken's CH SRK leads to full Ultra juggle.
    "At least [Vega] was a FUNCTIONAL fagg in ST" - wrrza AV by csphere
  • fegisfegis The Wan Ton Boxer Joined: Posts: 116
    I can only neutral rep too so ill rep later but big thanks from me!!! very useful and well thought and laid out guide.

    People's Elbow, i love reading about it haha.
  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    Checked and couldn't find it mentioned here already, so...

    The odd properties of landing frames seem to allow a character such as ryu to do a triple option select. The 3 options are jumping attack connects/j.wiff, dp/j.wiff, block. The later two options depend on how fast the opponents invincible move can hit. (This is reproducible within training.)

    The theory as I understand it suggests that a wiffed jump-in still allows trip guard. (I guess after the first 2 frames?) A fast (but slower than 3 frame) invincible move would hit the trip guard, resulting in block status. A slow invincible move, or backdash, would only come out after trip guard is ended, allowing the dp with invincibility to come out.

    I'm not 100% sure about the explanation above. So I'd appreciate a myth check.

    And yeah, that's really weird about lightning legs. Perhaps it has special chainable status that's just not reported in frame data? (Such as ryu standing lk chaining from other chainable lk/lp normals, but not being chainable itself.) There might be a whole column of data missing from what we have that's usually redundant.

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    Checked and couldn't find it mentioned here already, so...

    But the game itself doesn't track inputs and moves at any speed other than 30 frames per second. All the other frame data you see works on this. So the charge time would actually be just under 2 seconds. The amazing uses that charging moves are sometimes put to depends solely on how soon the player is able to start charging again after they've lost it.

    The information you posted is slightly incorrect. 2 seconds is way, way more time than you need to charge anything.

    This whole idea that the game runs at 30 frames per second, causing charge moves to require nearly 2 seconds of charge, is entirely bogus. I'm not hating on you, but just the fact that people would make that leap without actually testing it is the very reason dumbfucks still think :df::df::p: works as an SRK input.

    Took me all of, literally, 15-20 seconds (the AI kept hitting me so I had to get him at a range in which he'd just sit there so I could time it properly) to debunk that claim.

    Clock hit 80, I held back, just as the clock hit 79, press forward and punch, Sonic Boom. No, charging doesn't take anywhere near 2 seconds to complete, it's actually just under 1 second.
    Well it doesn't forget the inputs, and I think goukens counter works like this as well: Akuma can somehow cancel his shaku into another special move where the flame from the shaku comes out, and then the other special move executes over top of it. I'd like some one to explain how that one works in the SF4 engine.

    All of akumas special moves can do it, including a flaming dragon punch, super/ultra. The easiest one is flaming ex tatsu = :df: :qcb: :lp:, :lp: :lk: :mk:, where the punch is plinked with the kicks.

    This is, essentially, kara-cancelling a special move into another special move. As you mentioned, yes, Gouken's counter can do so as well. I wonder what other special moves are kara-cancellable like that..
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    Checked and couldn't find it mentioned here already, so...

    "And since the game engine runs at 60 frames per second, it actually requires less than a second for gaining the charge."

    Technically, frame rate of the game is 60 frames per second as far as visuals are concerned.

    But the game itself doesn't track inputs and moves at any speed other than 30 frames per second. All the other frame data you see works on this. So the charge time would actually be just under 2 seconds. The amazing uses that charging moves are sometimes put to depends solely on how soon the player is able to start charging again after they've lost it.
    This is completely wrong.

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=178322
  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    Hmm, fair enough. Editted.

    Perhaps a note to indicate that certain information widely available is actually invalid may help this from happening in the future.

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    Hmm, fair enough. Editted.

    Perhaps a note to indicate that certain information widely available is actually invalid may help this from happening in the future.

    It doesn't help, certainly, that they label it as 2 seconds pretty much everywhere. 55 frames isn't even the universal charge time: Vega only requires 42 frames for his charges (according to SF-Wiki, which I feel is valid, given that you can df.rh > rh.st, which is pretty ridic).
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    I'd like some one to explain how that one works in the SF4 engine.
    It's a kara cancel, and it's not limited to Akuma. Ken kara cancel can his air EX-Tatsu into a normal tatsu so that it maintains the arc of the EX version.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Have you ever noticed that if the opponent uses a 2-frame (ie 1+1) super within its initial hitting range, you can block on reaction but you can't press any buttons?

    My theory is that super freezes cause button inputs to drop for 2 frames. Try it against Chun's and Sagat's supers, both of which are 2 framers. If you're point blank, you can block or let go of block, but you can't do anything that involves buttons on reaction to the super freeze. Against characters with 3 frame supers like Dhalsim, though, you can block and let go of block and also do things that involve buttons.

    For some reason you CAN do buttons against Ken's super even though the jab version is listed at 2 frames, so that's weird. James Chen guessed that maybe that means that the frame data is wrong.
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  • gilleygilley 3D Aminator Joined: Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    For some reason you CAN do buttons against Ken's super even though the jab version is listed at 2 frames, so that's weird. James Chen guessed that maybe that means that the frame data is wrong.

    People suggest the frame data is wrong all the time. The best way to prove it is correct(or wrong) is to test it against a bunch of other situations. Ken's LP super for example, you could test against all other attacks that leave the opponent at -2 and see if you can hit them. Then test against all attacks that leave them at -1. There's lots of these wierd situations for specific moves in SF4. Guile/Fuerte's super is one of them. They can punish certain moves on block, they normally shouldn't be able to punish according to the frame data. Have you ever wondered why Ryu can punish a point blank blocked low tiger shot from Sagat with his c.rh but not his c.forward? They both have the exact same startup and it looks like Ryu's foot is in range for both attacks. Testing Ryu's c.rh and c.forward against other situations show that the frame data is correct. SF4 is just really really wierd.
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  • Sh33pSh33p New Age of Rubbish Rifling Joined: Posts: 407
    Out of interest, is there any difference between the PAL versions of the game and the NTSC versions, frame data wise, since one runs at 50Hz and the other 60Hz?
  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    People suggest the frame data is wrong all the time. The best way to prove it is correct(or wrong) is to test it against a bunch of other situations. Ken's LP super for example, you could test against all other attacks that leave the opponent at -2 and see if you can hit them. Then test against all attacks that leave them at -1. There's lots of these wierd situations for specific moves in SF4. Guile/Fuerte's super is one of them. They can punish certain moves on block, they normally shouldn't be able to punish according to the frame data. Have you ever wondered why Ryu can punish a point blank blocked low tiger shot from Sagat with his c.rh but not his c.forward? They both have the exact same startup and it looks like Ryu's foot is in range for both attacks. Testing Ryu's c.rh and c.forward against other situations show that the frame data is correct. SF4 is just really really wierd.

    Perhaps it is some sort of hitbox glitch? As opposed to inaccurate frame data.

    But I guess this isn't the thread for speculation...

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • chopperbyrnechopperbyrne Joined: Posts: 1,226
    Out of interest, is there any difference between the PAL versions of the game and the NTSC versions, frame data wise, since one runs at 50Hz and the other 60Hz?

    For close to ten years now, PAL SD televisions have been capable of running at 60Hz.
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  • DorqueDorque PSN: Dorque Joined: Posts: 13
    Thanks Richard Nguyen, this is really great information.

    I want to add something that I discovered and am hoping for a discussion. I stumbled upon a thread somewhere that mentioned you can dash out of a focus attack by pressing :qcf::qcf: but I tried it and it doesn't work so I went experimenting and found out something interesting.

    To dash, you press :r::r: or :l::l:. You can't dash by pressing :r::l::r:. However, from experimenting, I found out that you can dash by pressing :r::l::r: during a focus attack. From this I tried dashing out of a focus attack by pressing :db::qcf::db::qcf: and it worked.

    I was testing this with Ken and Ryu and in both cases after the dash, all I needed was to press :3p: for their ultras to come out.

    So that means you can FADC to ultra with any characters who have a :qcf::qcf: ultra by doing:
    FA, :db::qcf::db::qcf:, :3p: or possibly FA, :qcf::db::qcf:, :3p:

    Correct me if I'm wrong.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Have you ever noticed that if the opponent uses a 2-frame (ie 1+1) super within its initial hitting range, you can block on reaction but you can't press any buttons?

    Hello, UltimateDavid. :wgrin: Very weird findings you got there. Just tested it out myself and it holds true. One of the mysteries of sf4 I guess.
    snip

    I just tested it and Ken's LP super is indeed 2 frames startup. Also, I previously read about your tests with Guile's MK super against Boxer's dash punch. Another weird thing.

    Oh, and I think Ryu can't punish the low tiger shot with the cr. mk because he gets pushed too far causing the first few active frames of the cr. mk to miss Sagat's hitbox. I have tested this out before and it just looks and sounds like the cr. mk is making contact later than usual.
    snip

    I probably do not have the correct technique down, as I have been messing up like 99% of the time doing your way. :rofl: I do believe it's true though with my few successful attempts.

    The concept of the unusual dash inputs during the focus attack has also been brought up by Javits in the Boxer forum regarding a backdash to ultra to punish air tatsu's. I guess the focus attack allows to "remember" the inputs for the dash longer. Another mystery. :sweat:



    But sorry guys for not contributing to this thread recently. I wrote a section for kara's like last week but it got deleted as my browser closed. :arazz: Shoulda wrote it in Word. Haha, well I will probably be writing that up again. Dang, I just remembered something else I was gonna do but I forgot...
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    Perhaps you should add the misconception about DP FADC. It's actually -1 on block.

    http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?184624-FADC-Frame-Advantage-Disadvantage-Possible-to-Calculate
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    this is like all crazy to understand
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I argue that the :df: :df: :p: shortcut works. It's just not that good compared to a 3 move shortcut. My theory is that the :df: :df: registers as :r: :d: :r: :d:, with the second " :r: :d: " counting as a :df:. The timing needs to be faster than the 3-move version, or the normal dp for some reason though.

    I guess what I'm saying is, if the shortcut doesn't work how come it does?
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    I argue that the :df: :df: :p: shortcut works. It's just not that good compared to a 3 move shortcut. My theory is that the :df: :df: registers as :r: :d: :r: :d:, with the second " :r: :d: " counting as a :df:. The timing needs to be faster than the 3-move version, or the normal dp for some reason though.

    I guess what I'm saying is, if the shortcut doesn't work how come it does?

    It doesn't work. Diagonals are unique inputs. They do not have horizontal or vertical components (in the same way that a horizontal has no vertical component and vice versa). The reason they appear to is because that is the way the game is coded. The motion for a DP is hardcoded as 3 inputs. There's no way you can get around that.

    If :df::df: appears to works for you, then you must have inputted another motion somewhere along the line. Try doing it Training Mode with input display on. You'll see it's impossible to get a DP from just two directional inputs.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    yo guys... anybody can give me a hand on where I can find information about armor breaking??

    I mean, why some moves that are not armor breakers, sometime breaks your armor (when focusing)???

    By the way the info about the landing frames is true cause I have noticed that when I hit somebody's jump ins on Blanka's slide (df.HP).... if the opponent starts any move when airborne he cannot block, however if he jumps in without any move, he blocks it!!
  • a falling mangoa falling mango NO-YOU-CAN-NOT Joined: Posts: 709
    ^ When performed as a REVERSAL, some - if not all (?) - specials break armor
    "At least [Vega] was a FUNCTIONAL fagg in ST" - wrrza AV by csphere
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    With Reversal, all specials except projectiles become Armour BReaking
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    -If you attack in air and then attempt to attack during your landing frames, the attack will be buffered and performed as soon as the landing frames are over.
    I don't think this applies to special moves. From what I can tell, if you attack in the air and it whiffs, the game allows you to buffer the motion and button press before you land (I'm not sure how many frames before you land though), and the special will execute on the second landing frame (that's why you can get hit by sweeps). If however your aerial attack connects, then you can buffer the motion, but the game will ignore any button presses until the first landing frame. In either case, the special will execute on the second landing frame.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    With Reversal, all specials except projectiles become Armour BReaking
    ^ When performed as a REVERSAL, some - if not all (?) - specials break armor

    thank you guys... you helped me a lot...

    anyway, I still hate this function! hahahah....
  • ky0faceky0face Joined: Posts: 271
    Horizontal charge motions usually only have leniency set on :l:, will the :r: is usually set to strict, or it's replaced with a lenient :uf: (I'm not 100% sure, but leniency on diagonals prevent mirror motions, so :db: :df: won't work for charge motions, but :db: :uf: or :db: :r: will. But again I'm not 100% sure). .

    Not sure if anyone's touched on this, but I'm just gonna verify. With Chun-li I cancel cr.mk into super like this:

    :db::d::df:+:mk::db::r:+:mk:

    However, if I used :df:+:mk: at the end, the super wouldn't come out.

    So when charging for a move there's leniency on the charge input (could be :db:,:l:,:ub:) but the input to release the move must be a true horizontal. Specials will come out when the last input is a diagonal that is also registering a horizontal. Like for her ultra:

    :l::r::l::r::df:+:lk::mk::hk:

    Don't know if that helps, just sayin.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    The input leniency for the generic charge :l::r::l::r: super motions are lenient for the first three directions but not the last :r: (which is restricted to :r: or :uf:).

    Input leniency for charge special moves depends on the move itself. So, Blanka's horizontal ball is a strict :r: while Dictator's scissor kicks is a lenient :r:.
  • ky0faceky0face Joined: Posts: 271
    The input leniency for the generic charge :l::r::l::r: super motions are lenient for the first three directions but not the last :r: (which is restricted to :r: or :uf:).

    Strange, I can't pull out an ultra with :uf: at the end without there first being a :r: then :uf:...

    So just from testing it, I guess it may be Chun-li specific where using an :uf: motion to finish an ultra or super won't work.

    This works :l::r::l::r::uf:
    But I can't get this :l::r::l::uf: or this :l::r::l::df: to work.

    Also note that her kikouken has a lenient back charge motion but is strict to :r: when releasing, like Blanka. The characters that have a lenient :r: are lucky. I wonder what boxer is like.

    [edit] Sorry, I should clarify that I've only tested charge moves with Chun-li, I'm interested to check everyone else out later though.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    I think you can end a special on any motion as long as the button press follows a legal end direction within a certain number of frames (and of course you're in a state to perform it). These frames are hardcoded onto each motion itself. So basically, it seems like the end motion for a horizontal charge move has to be :r:, but you can input anything afterwards as long as you press the button quickly enough. That's why pre-charging works.

    :l:, :r:, :l: + :p:
  • ky0faceky0face Joined: Posts: 271
    I think you can end a special on any motion as long as the button press follows a legal end direction within a certain number of frames (and of course you're in a state to perform it). These frames are hardcoded onto each motion itself. So basically, it seems like the end motion for a horizontal charge move has to be :r:, but you can input anything afterwards as long as you press the button quickly enough. That's why pre-charging works.

    :l:, :r:, :l: + :p:

    That's what I said earlier, for the special to come out, your input can be :uf: or :df: at the end as long as it immediately follows a true horizontal :r:, but from testing, ending only in a diagonal (no horizontal before that last input) will not work.
  • Severin-XSeverin-X Joined: Posts: 1,872
    I am sorry if this is stupid and has been touched on but there is a ton to read here. Am I correct then that you can never safe jump against Ryu no matter what since his DP comes out in three frames? So any jump attack would actually be hit? So if I throw and go for a jump in any attack I will eat SRK? Only neutral jump timed properly would be "safe"?
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  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    It does not have to be a neutral jump in order to block/attack the instant you land.

    You just cannot throw out a midair attack without being vulnerable for 2 frames, or being unable to attack for 4 frames, on landing. And because of this, anything that hits in 3 frames, or has invincibility and grabs in 5 frames or less, will connect no matter what you attempt. (Has to also become active later than 1 frame. Zangief super and ultra will whiff on safe jump reversal because you are still in the air.)

    I don't think this applies to special moves. From what I can tell, if you attack in the air and it whiffs, the game allows you to buffer the motion and button press before you land (I'm not sure how many frames before you land though), and the special will execute on the second landing frame (that's why you can get hit by sweeps). If however your aerial attack connects, then you can buffer the motion, but the game will ignore any button presses until the first landing frame. In either case, the special will execute on the second landing frame.

    Ok, this throws a wrinkle into my explanation. Does the special really come out on the 2nd landing frame? Or is that just a horrible interpretation of what you're saying?

    Has to be the latter. I haven't noticed anything deviating from the 2/4 frame guard/action breakdown in my experience. But I've been horribly wrong before...

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • Jay WangJay Wang FrameDatas! Joined: Posts: 665
    subbing
    i def have some things that i want to add / comment on but have to run off to work atm

    also work blocked srk so i have to do it when i get home / on the weekend

    :(
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  • Smileymike101Smileymike101 Joined: Posts: 1,139
    Just want to say regarding the op that f.lk with sagat on counterhit gains at least +2 ,not +1, as he can do CH f.lk ~ hard kick and that not every other move( special or medium or hard nomral) gains +3.(Fireballs gain +2, and i think that so do medium normals).Also, are there any cancelable command normals besides ryu's f.hp and viper's f.hk?
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Snip.

    Whoops my bad. I just tried testing again and you're right. I guess I was hitting the :r: without realizing it during my previous tests.

    Just want to say regarding the op that f.lk with sagat on counterhit gains at least +2 ,not +1, as he can do CH f.lk ~ hard kick and that not every other move( special or medium or hard nomral) gains +3.(Fireballs gain +2, and i think that so do medium normals).Also, are there any cancelable command normals besides ryu's f.hp and viper's f.hk?

    Ooh, wow good find, man. Well, I just tested stuff out, and Sagat's f.lk gives exactly 2 more frames of hit stun on counterhit, fireballs also give 2, but medium normals still give 3 extra hit stun frames.

    I'm not sure about the cancellable command normals, but I think those are the only two.


    Edit: Oh, and I've found some other stuff out as well, and I will be finally be adding them as well as updating the first post after this long while.
  • cftkarltrancftkarltran Joined: Posts: 41
    i likey. cosign with good read
  • MetroxylonMetroxylon Missing link? Joined: Posts: 2,628
    Can you please remove that bit about "Ken's DP on counter hit can lead to full ultra"? That's a flat out lie. I've seen more than enough vids in which a Ken landed counter hit DP then canceled into ultra and it was the same lower damage version.

    The full ultra is a matter of distance in which you hit (Like Gouken's). So if this thread is truly a guide and a great read because it debunks myths, it very well shouldn't add to the myth list because one person said something about it and didn't know any better and the thread creator didn't bother checking the legitimacy of it.
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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    The full ultra is a matter of distance in which you hit (Like Gouken's).
    Are you saying that it's possible to get the full Ultra off a normal hit if the spacing and timing is correct? I'd like to see this setup.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Snip.

    Okay, so in order to get the full Ultra, the opponent must be in a "float" state. That is, if you could be hitting your opponent with normals within the juggle, they're in that state. So, if you do :hp: srk without counter hit and FADC on the second hit, try to like standing jab or whatever. You will see that it's unable to hit.

    But now do a counter hit :hp: srk and FADC on either the first or second hit. Now, you can see that you can juggle with normals, as well as anything else. I also know that the first hit of an antiair (normal or counterhit) :hp: srk also creates this juggle state. Also, a regular jump is considered a "float" state. Ken might have a few more that creates this juggle state, but I am unsure.

    You do have to wait a tiny bit to get the full ultra. Getting the "floating" :hp: srk and then immediately FADC and ultra will result in the short, crappy one.

    But please, show me all of these videos that you are talking about.
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Can you please remove that bit about "Ken's DP on counter hit can lead to full ultra"? That's a flat out lie. I've seen more than enough vids in which a Ken landed counter hit DP then canceled into ultra and it was the same lower damage version.

    In truth, you're claim that "You've seen enough vids" is rediculous. Do you think Richard, myself& all the other people testing this stuff sre watching videos to gauge our results?
    The full ultra is a matter of distance in which you hit (Like Gouken's). So if this thread is truly a guide and a great read because it debunks myths, it very well shouldn't add to the myth list because one person said something about it and didn't know any better and the thread creator didn't bother checking the legitimacy of it.



    Woah, question it before you accuse people of lying.

    Attacks have juggle properties, each individual hit of an attack has juggle properties.

    Imagine a ficitious counter, this is what determines juggle capability, each hit of each moves (Including normals) has this number. Now Kens HP SRK is fairly advanced, so i'll start with something similair.

    Do Sagats HP SRK, this creates a standard knockdown, most normals won't hit during standard knockdown, but Sagat has exceptions.

    EX: SRK -> FADC -> Jab = doesn't hit

    His exceptions, are the commonly known Forward Roundhouse, & the not so well known left/right Jump + MP (The godly elbow)

    this is a basic exmple of the juggle counter.

    Now back to Ken, the important thing about Kens HP SRK is the second & third hit do not alter propperties wether it hits counter or not, it's all down to the first hit. The first hit, normally doesn't raise the opponent, do HP SRK for 1 hit then FADC, the enemy stays standing, now on counter it causes a Float knockdown (Anything can hit them out of it, even normals) Also known as JP0, almost exactly the same as a neutral jump. Thats the first hit explained, the second hit, if it hits a grounded enemy causes a standard knockdown, if it hits an aerial opponent it causes a Float Knockdown RESET, this means if the enemy is in Float knockdown, this will hit them & KEEP them in float knockdown, meaning with infinite meter, you could do a HP SRK indeffinately so long as you always hit the enemy with the second hit of his SRK, test it out. The first hit, though it causes Float knockdown on air opponent DOES NOT contain the RESET which allows it to be done over again & again.

    Now as for Kens Ultra, the first hit is JP 0, just like most normals, meaning it WILL NOT hit an enemy in standard knockdown, every hit after however has a massively high JPmeaning it'll most likely always hit an enemy no matter how much he's been juggled. if you do a counterhit SRK you still have to perform the Ultra quite low as if the enemy is to high the first hit will whiff, initiating the weaker Ultra



    Check the first combo, LP SRK MAkes standard knockdown, first hit of EXSRK is JP 0 meaning it doesn't hit. second hit of EX SRK has a unique property, it has Float Knockdown Reset, but also hits on JP 1, so if you hit on JP 1 & FADC, the counter stays on JP 1 meaning the enemy stays in standard knockdown. This can be done indeffinately, i do this till the enemy stuns. Then i do a LEvel3 Focus attack, wait until the enemy is in stage two of focus crumple, this means the first hit of the HP SRK raises the opponent,basically emulating the effects of a Counter HPSRK, i FADC, then the second HP SRK hits on the second hit of the SRK, re-resetting the counter. Which then, as you can see leads to full Ultra.

    I can promise you, it's not just positioning, you could do LP SRK 100 times then perform an Ultra & not one of them would lead to a full Ultra.

    Hope that's easy to understand, KEns HP SRK is in the deeper end of understanding juggle mechanics in SFIV
  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    Can you please remove that bit about "Ken's DP on counter hit can lead to full ultra"? That's a flat out lie. I've seen more than enough vids in which a Ken landed counter hit DP then canceled into ultra and it was the same lower damage version.

    The full ultra is a matter of distance in which you hit (Like Gouken's). So if this thread is truly a guide and a great read because it debunks myths, it very well shouldn't add to the myth list because one person said something about it and didn't know any better and the thread creator didn't bother checking the legitimacy of it.

    Blatantly incorrect. Which video? I can think of one and it wasn't a proper Ken full ultra FADC setup. In the video in which Damdai fp.srk's someone's focus attack, the first hit--you know, the one that actually matters in whether or not the counter-hit puts them in float state--gets absorbed, the SECOND hit counter-hits (which doesn't do shit mind you) and Damdai gets a half ultra.

    Unless the first hit counter-hits or hits them in mid-air or hits them after they've dropped to their knees after a focus attack, you will -not- get Ken's full ultra. Anti-air, counter-hit, and Focus Attack Crumple are the -only- 3 ways to land a full ultra off of a fp.srk FADC.
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • MetroxylonMetroxylon Missing link? Joined: Posts: 2,628
    But please, show me all of these videos that you are talking about.

    That's a pretty big demand. I haven't been watching much lately, but since you asked, I had to find at least one.



    I think you said something about anti-air SRK FADC into full ultra. I must apologize for misspeaking. I didn't mean to express doubt of the possibility for a counter-hit SRK comboing into full ultra. I suppose I wanted a more in-depth explanation of all those possibilities that Kick and Richard Nguyen mentioned just now (well in the past couple days) rather than giving me the impression that only if a DP counter-hits will you be able to get the full ultra.

    Now if you want me to find a video in which a Ken gets counter hit DP that doesn't combo into full ultra, well you're gonna have to either be patient with me, or find it yourself. But one can't deny that spacing and timing are huge factors in landing the full ultra also off of DP FADC.

    PS. I'm well aware of the enhancing properties of counter-hit combos. I play mainly Rose and there are a number of good combos she can perform based on counter-hits.
    Are you clutch or crutch?
    Downback saved my life.
    Stand strong, do or die.

    https://youtube.com/user/SaveReplayandQuit/videos
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    In Kens sense, counterhit actually alters the properties of the move, not just better frame advantage. like the equivelent of of Sagats Tiger Upper,when it hits counter it makes the enemy spin wildly, Orchun Li's D+ F LK causes standard knockdown on counterhit.

    Unless i'mmistaken & Rose has some property altering CH's.I only found out recently her F+HK causes standard knockdown when it hits in air.
  • MetroxylonMetroxylon Missing link? Joined: Posts: 2,628
    In Kens sense, counterhit actually alters the properties of the move, not just better frame advantage. like the equivelent of of Sagats Tiger Upper,when it hits counter it makes the enemy spin wildly, Orchun Li's D+ F LK causes standard knockdown on counterhit.

    Unless i'mmistaken & Rose has some property altering CH's.I only found out recently her F+HK causes standard knockdown when it hits in air.

    Oh all I was getting at, was a counter-hit poke will increase frame advantage leading into counter-hit specific combos. Her f-HK can juggle into super when used as AA. Her only launcher move would be reflect, and I've never thought to test if that can lead into anything unique.
    Are you clutch or crutch?
    Downback saved my life.
    Stand strong, do or die.

    https://youtube.com/user/SaveReplayandQuit/videos
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Her HP Soul Reflect can be followed up with her Super, without cancelling. But all told thats as far as it can stretch. Except one hit of an EX SoulSpark in the corner. In SSFIV apparently you can FADC her Rflect in to soul throw.
  • MetroxylonMetroxylon Missing link? Joined: Posts: 2,628
    Her HP Soul Reflect can be followed up with her Super, without cancelling. But all told thats as far as it can stretch. Except one hit of an EX SoulSpark in the corner. In SSFIV apparently you can FADC her Rflect in to soul throw.

    yeah I meant unique to a counter-hit reflect. I play Rose sir, I know about everything you said haha.
    Are you clutch or crutch?
    Downback saved my life.
    Stand strong, do or die.

    https://youtube.com/user/SaveReplayandQuit/videos
  • roleybobroleybob Joined: Posts: 1
    Just a small point, sorry if it seems pedantic.

    Unless I've misunderstood what u meant here:

    Quote Originally Posted by jchensor View Post
    And just as an FYI for a technical reason why Code Shortcuts exist, it's REALLY EASY to state why. SF4 has one change in the game that did not exist in all previous games: switching between any of the 8 directions RE-REGISTERS ALL JOYSTICK INPUTS. Because a diagonal counts as both and , hitting the diagonal registers as both of those inputs. Now, in ALL OTHER Street Fighter games, shifting from to meant you let go of and that's all. It never registered as being pressed again.

    sf3 3s also re-registered directions when you shifted to diagonal. You can see this in the way i do kara-demon which is:

    :r: + :mp:, :lp:, :lp:, :df:, :lk:, :hp:

    holding :r: during the first 3 punch button inputs and then moving to :df:. when you go to :df:, the game registers another :r: input and the demon still comes out when you finish inputting. i can't remember about older sf games tho. sorry if someone already mentioned this or if i misunderstood you
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Yeah, others have pointed out that to me as well. I guess I really never played Third Strike enough. ^_^ So yeah, I was wrong about that.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • Duy NguyenDuy Nguyen Thug life!!! Joined: Posts: 830
    You're so good at this game!!!
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    Yeah, others have pointed out that to me as well. I guess I really never played Third Strike enough. ^_^ So yeah, I was wrong about that.

    - James

    Doesn't apply to Viper's Super Jump either. If you hold any direction for more than a few frames (2 maybe?), then you have to pass through neutral to perfom a SJ. That's why you can't perform a smooth motion to SJ while you're moving forward or backward.
  • gaosergaoser MY DAWTERS R SO PRTY Joined: Posts: 814
    Richard your Zangief is so freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
    -- "having aduken is advantageous, using aduken is chicken, and abusing aduken is winning." - brucelee-kid
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