*** Misconceptions of the SF4 Game System Mechanics - GREAT READ ***

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  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    It does not have to be a neutral jump in order to block/attack the instant you land.

    You just cannot throw out a midair attack without being vulnerable for 2 frames, or being unable to attack for 4 frames, on landing. And because of this, anything that hits in 3 frames, or has invincibility and grabs in 5 frames or less, will connect no matter what you attempt. (Has to also become active later than 1 frame. Zangief super and ultra will whiff on safe jump reversal because you are still in the air.)

    I don't think this applies to special moves. From what I can tell, if you attack in the air and it whiffs, the game allows you to buffer the motion and button press before you land (I'm not sure how many frames before you land though), and the special will execute on the second landing frame (that's why you can get hit by sweeps). If however your aerial attack connects, then you can buffer the motion, but the game will ignore any button presses until the first landing frame. In either case, the special will execute on the second landing frame.

    Ok, this throws a wrinkle into my explanation. Does the special really come out on the 2nd landing frame? Or is that just a horrible interpretation of what you're saying?

    Has to be the latter. I haven't noticed anything deviating from the 2/4 frame guard/action breakdown in my experience. But I've been horribly wrong before...

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • Jay WangJay Wang FrameDatas! Joined: Posts: 665
    subbing
    i def have some things that i want to add / comment on but have to run off to work atm

    also work blocked srk so i have to do it when i get home / on the weekend

    :(
    - JayWang

    Don't Eat The Yellow Snow!
  • Smileymike101Smileymike101 Joined: Posts: 1,139
    Just want to say regarding the op that f.lk with sagat on counterhit gains at least +2 ,not +1, as he can do CH f.lk ~ hard kick and that not every other move( special or medium or hard nomral) gains +3.(Fireballs gain +2, and i think that so do medium normals).Also, are there any cancelable command normals besides ryu's f.hp and viper's f.hk?
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Snip.

    Whoops my bad. I just tried testing again and you're right. I guess I was hitting the :r: without realizing it during my previous tests.

    Just want to say regarding the op that f.lk with sagat on counterhit gains at least +2 ,not +1, as he can do CH f.lk ~ hard kick and that not every other move( special or medium or hard nomral) gains +3.(Fireballs gain +2, and i think that so do medium normals).Also, are there any cancelable command normals besides ryu's f.hp and viper's f.hk?

    Ooh, wow good find, man. Well, I just tested stuff out, and Sagat's f.lk gives exactly 2 more frames of hit stun on counterhit, fireballs also give 2, but medium normals still give 3 extra hit stun frames.

    I'm not sure about the cancellable command normals, but I think those are the only two.


    Edit: Oh, and I've found some other stuff out as well, and I will be finally be adding them as well as updating the first post after this long while.
  • cftkarltrancftkarltran Joined: Posts: 41
    i likey. cosign with good read
  • MetroxylonMetroxylon Missing link? Joined: Posts: 2,633
    Can you please remove that bit about "Ken's DP on counter hit can lead to full ultra"? That's a flat out lie. I've seen more than enough vids in which a Ken landed counter hit DP then canceled into ultra and it was the same lower damage version.

    The full ultra is a matter of distance in which you hit (Like Gouken's). So if this thread is truly a guide and a great read because it debunks myths, it very well shouldn't add to the myth list because one person said something about it and didn't know any better and the thread creator didn't bother checking the legitimacy of it.
    Are you clutch or crutch?
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    Stand strong, do or die.

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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,398
    The full ultra is a matter of distance in which you hit (Like Gouken's).
    Are you saying that it's possible to get the full Ultra off a normal hit if the spacing and timing is correct? I'd like to see this setup.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Snip.

    Okay, so in order to get the full Ultra, the opponent must be in a "float" state. That is, if you could be hitting your opponent with normals within the juggle, they're in that state. So, if you do :hp: srk without counter hit and FADC on the second hit, try to like standing jab or whatever. You will see that it's unable to hit.

    But now do a counter hit :hp: srk and FADC on either the first or second hit. Now, you can see that you can juggle with normals, as well as anything else. I also know that the first hit of an antiair (normal or counterhit) :hp: srk also creates this juggle state. Also, a regular jump is considered a "float" state. Ken might have a few more that creates this juggle state, but I am unsure.

    You do have to wait a tiny bit to get the full ultra. Getting the "floating" :hp: srk and then immediately FADC and ultra will result in the short, crappy one.

    But please, show me all of these videos that you are talking about.
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Can you please remove that bit about "Ken's DP on counter hit can lead to full ultra"? That's a flat out lie. I've seen more than enough vids in which a Ken landed counter hit DP then canceled into ultra and it was the same lower damage version.

    In truth, you're claim that "You've seen enough vids" is rediculous. Do you think Richard, myself& all the other people testing this stuff sre watching videos to gauge our results?
    The full ultra is a matter of distance in which you hit (Like Gouken's). So if this thread is truly a guide and a great read because it debunks myths, it very well shouldn't add to the myth list because one person said something about it and didn't know any better and the thread creator didn't bother checking the legitimacy of it.



    Woah, question it before you accuse people of lying.

    Attacks have juggle properties, each individual hit of an attack has juggle properties.

    Imagine a ficitious counter, this is what determines juggle capability, each hit of each moves (Including normals) has this number. Now Kens HP SRK is fairly advanced, so i'll start with something similair.

    Do Sagats HP SRK, this creates a standard knockdown, most normals won't hit during standard knockdown, but Sagat has exceptions.

    EX: SRK -> FADC -> Jab = doesn't hit

    His exceptions, are the commonly known Forward Roundhouse, & the not so well known left/right Jump + MP (The godly elbow)

    this is a basic exmple of the juggle counter.

    Now back to Ken, the important thing about Kens HP SRK is the second & third hit do not alter propperties wether it hits counter or not, it's all down to the first hit. The first hit, normally doesn't raise the opponent, do HP SRK for 1 hit then FADC, the enemy stays standing, now on counter it causes a Float knockdown (Anything can hit them out of it, even normals) Also known as JP0, almost exactly the same as a neutral jump. Thats the first hit explained, the second hit, if it hits a grounded enemy causes a standard knockdown, if it hits an aerial opponent it causes a Float Knockdown RESET, this means if the enemy is in Float knockdown, this will hit them & KEEP them in float knockdown, meaning with infinite meter, you could do a HP SRK indeffinately so long as you always hit the enemy with the second hit of his SRK, test it out. The first hit, though it causes Float knockdown on air opponent DOES NOT contain the RESET which allows it to be done over again & again.

    Now as for Kens Ultra, the first hit is JP 0, just like most normals, meaning it WILL NOT hit an enemy in standard knockdown, every hit after however has a massively high JPmeaning it'll most likely always hit an enemy no matter how much he's been juggled. if you do a counterhit SRK you still have to perform the Ultra quite low as if the enemy is to high the first hit will whiff, initiating the weaker Ultra



    Check the first combo, LP SRK MAkes standard knockdown, first hit of EXSRK is JP 0 meaning it doesn't hit. second hit of EX SRK has a unique property, it has Float Knockdown Reset, but also hits on JP 1, so if you hit on JP 1 & FADC, the counter stays on JP 1 meaning the enemy stays in standard knockdown. This can be done indeffinately, i do this till the enemy stuns. Then i do a LEvel3 Focus attack, wait until the enemy is in stage two of focus crumple, this means the first hit of the HP SRK raises the opponent,basically emulating the effects of a Counter HPSRK, i FADC, then the second HP SRK hits on the second hit of the SRK, re-resetting the counter. Which then, as you can see leads to full Ultra.

    I can promise you, it's not just positioning, you could do LP SRK 100 times then perform an Ultra & not one of them would lead to a full Ultra.

    Hope that's easy to understand, KEns HP SRK is in the deeper end of understanding juggle mechanics in SFIV
  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    Can you please remove that bit about "Ken's DP on counter hit can lead to full ultra"? That's a flat out lie. I've seen more than enough vids in which a Ken landed counter hit DP then canceled into ultra and it was the same lower damage version.

    The full ultra is a matter of distance in which you hit (Like Gouken's). So if this thread is truly a guide and a great read because it debunks myths, it very well shouldn't add to the myth list because one person said something about it and didn't know any better and the thread creator didn't bother checking the legitimacy of it.

    Blatantly incorrect. Which video? I can think of one and it wasn't a proper Ken full ultra FADC setup. In the video in which Damdai fp.srk's someone's focus attack, the first hit--you know, the one that actually matters in whether or not the counter-hit puts them in float state--gets absorbed, the SECOND hit counter-hits (which doesn't do shit mind you) and Damdai gets a half ultra.

    Unless the first hit counter-hits or hits them in mid-air or hits them after they've dropped to their knees after a focus attack, you will -not- get Ken's full ultra. Anti-air, counter-hit, and Focus Attack Crumple are the -only- 3 ways to land a full ultra off of a fp.srk FADC.
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • MetroxylonMetroxylon Missing link? Joined: Posts: 2,633
    But please, show me all of these videos that you are talking about.

    That's a pretty big demand. I haven't been watching much lately, but since you asked, I had to find at least one.



    I think you said something about anti-air SRK FADC into full ultra. I must apologize for misspeaking. I didn't mean to express doubt of the possibility for a counter-hit SRK comboing into full ultra. I suppose I wanted a more in-depth explanation of all those possibilities that Kick and Richard Nguyen mentioned just now (well in the past couple days) rather than giving me the impression that only if a DP counter-hits will you be able to get the full ultra.

    Now if you want me to find a video in which a Ken gets counter hit DP that doesn't combo into full ultra, well you're gonna have to either be patient with me, or find it yourself. But one can't deny that spacing and timing are huge factors in landing the full ultra also off of DP FADC.

    PS. I'm well aware of the enhancing properties of counter-hit combos. I play mainly Rose and there are a number of good combos she can perform based on counter-hits.
    Are you clutch or crutch?
    Downback saved my life.
    Stand strong, do or die.

    https://youtube.com/user/SaveReplayandQuit/videos
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    In Kens sense, counterhit actually alters the properties of the move, not just better frame advantage. like the equivelent of of Sagats Tiger Upper,when it hits counter it makes the enemy spin wildly, Orchun Li's D+ F LK causes standard knockdown on counterhit.

    Unless i'mmistaken & Rose has some property altering CH's.I only found out recently her F+HK causes standard knockdown when it hits in air.
  • MetroxylonMetroxylon Missing link? Joined: Posts: 2,633
    In Kens sense, counterhit actually alters the properties of the move, not just better frame advantage. like the equivelent of of Sagats Tiger Upper,when it hits counter it makes the enemy spin wildly, Orchun Li's D+ F LK causes standard knockdown on counterhit.

    Unless i'mmistaken & Rose has some property altering CH's.I only found out recently her F+HK causes standard knockdown when it hits in air.

    Oh all I was getting at, was a counter-hit poke will increase frame advantage leading into counter-hit specific combos. Her f-HK can juggle into super when used as AA. Her only launcher move would be reflect, and I've never thought to test if that can lead into anything unique.
    Are you clutch or crutch?
    Downback saved my life.
    Stand strong, do or die.

    https://youtube.com/user/SaveReplayandQuit/videos
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Her HP Soul Reflect can be followed up with her Super, without cancelling. But all told thats as far as it can stretch. Except one hit of an EX SoulSpark in the corner. In SSFIV apparently you can FADC her Rflect in to soul throw.
  • MetroxylonMetroxylon Missing link? Joined: Posts: 2,633
    Her HP Soul Reflect can be followed up with her Super, without cancelling. But all told thats as far as it can stretch. Except one hit of an EX SoulSpark in the corner. In SSFIV apparently you can FADC her Rflect in to soul throw.

    yeah I meant unique to a counter-hit reflect. I play Rose sir, I know about everything you said haha.
    Are you clutch or crutch?
    Downback saved my life.
    Stand strong, do or die.

    https://youtube.com/user/SaveReplayandQuit/videos
  • roleybobroleybob Joined: Posts: 1
    Just a small point, sorry if it seems pedantic.

    Unless I've misunderstood what u meant here:

    Quote Originally Posted by jchensor View Post
    And just as an FYI for a technical reason why Code Shortcuts exist, it's REALLY EASY to state why. SF4 has one change in the game that did not exist in all previous games: switching between any of the 8 directions RE-REGISTERS ALL JOYSTICK INPUTS. Because a diagonal counts as both and , hitting the diagonal registers as both of those inputs. Now, in ALL OTHER Street Fighter games, shifting from to meant you let go of and that's all. It never registered as being pressed again.

    sf3 3s also re-registered directions when you shifted to diagonal. You can see this in the way i do kara-demon which is:

    :r: + :mp:, :lp:, :lp:, :df:, :lk:, :hp:

    holding :r: during the first 3 punch button inputs and then moving to :df:. when you go to :df:, the game registers another :r: input and the demon still comes out when you finish inputting. i can't remember about older sf games tho. sorry if someone already mentioned this or if i misunderstood you
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Yeah, others have pointed out that to me as well. I guess I really never played Third Strike enough. ^_^ So yeah, I was wrong about that.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • Duy NguyenDuy Nguyen Thug life!!! Joined: Posts: 830
    You're so good at this game!!!
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,398
    Yeah, others have pointed out that to me as well. I guess I really never played Third Strike enough. ^_^ So yeah, I was wrong about that.

    - James

    Doesn't apply to Viper's Super Jump either. If you hold any direction for more than a few frames (2 maybe?), then you have to pass through neutral to perfom a SJ. That's why you can't perform a smooth motion to SJ while you're moving forward or backward.
  • gaosergaoser MY DAWTERS R SO PRTY Joined: Posts: 814
    Richard your Zangief is so freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
    -- "having aduken is advantageous, using aduken is chicken, and abusing aduken is winning." - brucelee-kid
  • walnut shrimpwalnut shrimp Joined: Posts: 375
    I didn't see this mentioned under trip guard properties. If you do an empty jump, there are a few frames where even if you crouch block, you're still as tall as if you are standing.

    I notice this a lot trip guarding with Chun's st. fierce and st. roundhouse... both of them tend to whiff on crouching opponents, but if they empty jump, they'll be forced to block even if they are holding down-back.
  • wrrzawrrza CHINGCHONG Joined: Posts: 553
    I didn't see this mentioned under trip guard properties. If you do an empty jump, there are a few frames where even if you crouch block, you're still as tall as if you are standing.

    I notice this a lot trip guarding with Chun's st. fierce and st. roundhouse... both of them tend to whiff on crouching opponents, but if they empty jump, they'll be forced to block even if they are holding down-back.

    same with high tiger shots on wakeup. usually they go over you but on wake-up you're forced to block it even if you're down-back.
  • PigJazzPigJazz Not the Face Joined: Posts: 37
    If you could hit a button 60 times a second, would you be able to do every link perfectly? Or does the game impose some kind of penalty on you for attempting a link too early?
  • JohnickJohnick Joined: Posts: 229
    I wanted to main Ryu in the game but kept getting EX Shoryu coming out instead of my Ultra whenever I tried any FADC setups, was so bad it made me switch to Akuma, just went into training a minute ago after reading this and noticed I never miss hiss corner crouching short -> EX Tatsu -> Ultra setup cause you have so long to buffer the Ultra. Now when I try Shoryu -> FADC -> Ultra, I find I get the Ultra and a lot less EX Shoryu's come out, but the Ultra is usually too late and flys over their body. If I try and do it any faster, its back to EX Shoryu again, GAH!!! :shake:
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    I wanted to main Ryu in the game but kept getting EX Shoryu coming out instead of my Ultra whenever I tried any FADC setups, was so bad it made me switch to Akuma, just went into training a minute ago after reading this and noticed I never miss hiss corner crouching short -> EX Tatsu -> Ultra setup cause you have so long to buffer the Ultra. Now when I try Shoryu -> FADC -> Ultra, I find I get the Ultra and a lot less EX Shoryu's come out, but the Ultra is usually too late and flys over their body. If I try and do it any faster, its back to EX Shoryu again, GAH!!! :shake:

    Do a Tiger Knee motion for the last fireball motion. The reason EX Shoryus come out for most people is that they hit the buttons TOO EARLY. If you hit the buttons before you reach the last input on the joystick, the only "code" that can be recognized by the game is the Uppercut Motion, so the Shoryu comes out instead:

    :d::df::r::d::df:

    The last three inputs here are the DP code. So if you hit the buttons one input too early, the Shoryu registers. And the problem is, EVERYONE'S tendency is to hit the buttons too early. So what I've learned to do is "Tiger Knee" the last fireball. So I do:

    :d::df::r::d::df::r::uf: + :3p:

    Because of the natural tendency to hit buttons too early, you'll actually hit the buttons ON TIME. And you can cancel the pre-jump frames into a Special Move so even if you hit them on time, the Ultra comes out instead of the Jump anyhow.

    Using that method has helped my success rate on the Ultra tremendously. Try it out and see if it works for you.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    If you could hit a button 60 times a second, would you be able to do every link perfectly? Or does the game impose some kind of penalty on you for attempting a link too early?

    There is no designed penalty, I think. However, there is the question of if the game is capable of recognizing a button press for the same button every 60th of a second. Or if it would just think that the button is being held down for the entire time. This might be the reason that plinking is almost always superior to double-tapping. It would have the capability to get around this technical limitation, if that limitation does actually exist.

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    The first hit of Dhalsims EX yoga fire causes float knockdown isntead of standard knockdown when it hits anti-air and counterhit.

    The last hit of Dan's super causes the opponent to fall in a much lower arc if it is a counterhit.

    Anti-Air Counterhit Lvl.2 FA causes the same thwirling animation that CH TU has.
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • CYBORG COPCYBORG COP CYBER COP Joined: Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    How does super/ultra freeze work in this game? The frame tables list 1 + X (some number) for every super/ultra in the game, with frame 1 always being invincible. What does this notation mean? Is there a translation from the Japanese guides?
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    That one frame is when the freeze happens.
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • CYBORG COPCYBORG COP CYBER COP Joined: Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    There's more to it than that though. Here's my thoughts.

    For most supers, the the game advances by 1 frame in slow motion during the dark screen. You can visually see this happening. This doesn't seem to apply to grab supers like Raging Demon and Zangief's FAB. If a fireball is 1 frame away from connecting when you activate super, the fireball will actually connect during the dark screen. The opponent can however block (high or low) during the dark screen even if he wasn't already blocking (proof that blocking high or low is instant?). No other action is allowed during the dark screen. Also, you know how if Chun Li goes for chip super, you have no choice but to block, i.e. you cannot counter out of it even if you are in neutral. Chun's super is 1+1 startup, suggesting that you can't do anything but block for at least 1 additional frame after dark screen.

    Ultras (and the previously mentioned grab supers) are different because the frame advance does not occur during the dark screen. It seems like the frame advance occurs after the dark screen (I forget the details of how I tested that, will get back to you). And there doesn't seem to be any rule about only being able to block during/after the dark screen like with supers. So what's the significance of writing 1+X for the startup number; you could just clump the 1 and the X together. There's some unknown meaning behind that 1 frame.
  • CYBORG COPCYBORG COP CYBER COP Joined: Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    To verify that the frame advance occurs AFTER the dark screen for ultras:

    With EMPTY ULTRA and FULL SUPER bars, I recorded Seth doing LP fireball from full screen. Just before it connects, activate super with 3P (super comes out because ultra is empty). The fireball connects during the dark screen.

    Now with FULL ULTRA bar, play it back. He will activate ultra in place of super (but with the exact same timing), and you can see that the fireball connects AFTER the dark screen. Also, note that you can mash ultra/super/whatever to avoid the fireball, so you can do more than just block immediately following the dark screen.
  • BowlofwaterBowlofwater CptCharisma Joined: Posts: 67
    does anyone know a good threat or post on understanding throws. like its properties and stuff on waking up after jumps in empty or attacking, throwing ppl when they are jabbing. like i have bad habit of thinking i can mash low jab to get out of throws, and apparently throws r invincible to it or something. i dunno, sigh
  • SinisterMephistoSinisterMephisto Joined: Posts: 13
    Charge Time
    This is not a that big of a misconception, but many people/sites say that charge moves take 2 seconds to fully charge up. However, almost all charge moves (with the exception of Vega who has 42-frames and 60-frames for his move set) require 55 frames of charge. And since the game engine runs at 60 frames per second, it actually requires less than a second for gaining the charge.

    where did the 2 seconds come from?
  • john4pjohn4p Joined: Posts: 817
    where did the 2 seconds come from?
    Here's the SF2 US manual: replacementdocs: Downloads / / Street Fighter II

    Excerpt from Guile's page (Sonic Boom description): "Using the control pad, press :l: and hold it for 2 seconds. Then press :r: and push any punch button."

    Dunno if this wrong information already was in the original Japanese manual as well.


    edit: Note that in this manual it's explicitely written: "A student of Master Sheng Long, Ryu has developed into a pure warrior."
  • m16ghostm16ghost Joined: Posts: 1,810
    Does anybody know if there's a frame of throw invulnerability following block or hit stun?

    Bison's cr.jab is +2 on block, yet it's possible to whiff a tick throw point blank following the jab. I'm sure this happens with other characters that have +2 moves as well.
  • CYBORG COPCYBORG COP CYBER COP Joined: Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I tested this a while back while off-topic in a Hakan thread, lol. Basically, you become invulnerable to throws for 2 frames anytime you become eligible for a reversal, i.e. leaving blockstun/hitstun, waking up, or landing on your feet after being hit out of the air. You forfeit this invincibility if you do an ultra or super. Consequently, a reversal SPD from Zangief is unthrowable because it is 2 frames startup. But reversal Yoga Catastrophe, LP/HP Abel supers, and even Angry Scar remain 100% vulnerable to grabs.
  • m16ghostm16ghost Joined: Posts: 1,810
    I tested this a while back while off-topic in a Hakan thread, lol. Basically, you become invulnerable to throws for 2 frames anytime you become eligible for a reversal, i.e. leaving blockstun/hitstun, waking up, or landing on your feet after being hit out of the air. You forfeit this invincibility if you do an ultra or super. Consequently, a reversal SPD from Zangief is unthrowable because it is 2 frames startup. But reversal Yoga Catastrophe, LP/HP Abel supers, and even Angry Scar remain 100% vulnerable to grabs.

    Hm thanks. What scenarios did you test? I was trying to come up with other possible theories as to why this would happen.

    That implies that in AE, EX-GH-> spd would whiff, because the opponent would be throw invulnerable for two frames following the +1 on hit EX-GH.
  • CYBORG COPCYBORG COP CYBER COP Joined: Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I might try it again to be sure, but if I remember correctly...

    To test wakeup, I did a meaty raging demon on Gief. If he does reversal spd (2 frames), the spd wins every time. Then I replaced Gief with Hakan's spd (3 frames) and the Demon won every time.

    To test landing, I reset Gief/Hakan out of the air into a meaty raging demon, and the results were the same.

    I tested by trial and error for blockstun/hitstun. I took a move that was +2 on hit (like someone's cr.LP), then tried to see if I could get a normal throw to whiff. It did. Same thing for block. Then I tested with +1 on hit/block and no matter how many times I tried I couldn't get a whiff. Remember, normal throws are active on frames 3 and 4, so even if the opponent is throw invincible on frame 3, he can still get grabbed on frame 4 if the invincibility wears off.

    Insert a reversal super or ultra in any of those situations to see that it forfeits the throw invulnerability.

    Also, if you have access to those hitbox videos, in the video that demos Cody's Bad Spray, i believe you can see 2 frames on wakeup with no blue (grabbable) hurtbox.
  • CYBORG COPCYBORG COP CYBER COP Joined: Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    That implies that in AE, EX-GH-> spd would whiff, because the opponent would be throw invulnerable for two frames following the +1 on hit EX-GH.

    You would have to delay the spd of course.
  • m16ghostm16ghost Joined: Posts: 1,810
    I might try it again to be sure, but if I remember correctly...

    To test wakeup, I did a meaty raging demon on Gief. If he does reversal spd (2 frames), the spd wins every time. Then I replaced Gief with Hakan's spd (3 frames) and the Demon won every time.

    To test landing, I reset Gief/Hakan out of the air into a meaty raging demon, and the results were the same.

    I tested by trial and error for blockstun/hitstun. I took a move that was +2 on hit (like someone's cr.LP), then tried to see if I could get a normal throw to whiff. It did. Same thing for block. Then I tested with +1 on hit/block and no matter how many times I tried I couldn't get a whiff. Remember, normal throws are active on frames 3 and 4, so even if the opponent is throw invincible on frame 3, he can still get grabbed on frame 4 if the invincibility wears off.

    Insert a reversal super or ultra in any of those situations to see that it forfeits the throw invulnerability.

    Also, if you have access to those hitbox videos, in the video that demos Cody's Bad Spray, i believe you can see 2 frames on wakeup with no blue (grabbable) hurtbox.

    Good stuff. I was trying to figure out good tests for the hit and blockstun, and I was playing around with Fei's command grab, and I basically came to the same results you did. I didn't think of doing meaty demon setups or checking Cody's bad spray video though, that is pretty brilliant.
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