Tekken 6 Tier List?

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  • 9thpixel9thpixel 9 Joined: Posts: 215
    I think Raven's highest damage juggles do have problems, but he still has good 60+ damage juggles that seem very consistent. Pretty much every character has juggles that need major changes needed depending on axis and the sort. So, juggle inconsistency is not as big of a deal as it was in past Tekken's. Aside from being a risk, inconsistent juggles, and so few players picking him up it is hard to spot why he is so low tier. His sidestep weakness is managable and he makes up his block punishment with strong whiff punishment. I am not saying he is top, but to put him lower than Xiaoyu/Zafina/Yoshi is almost a laugh.

    A weakened sidestep, backdash, and including a rage system all work in Paul's favor. In previous Tekken's it was a strong strategy to just run away and walk circles around anything Paul tried. Now you really have to respect him and stay on point until the KO, because Paul can end a round in a flash.
  • ShinkuuRShinkuuR Still Pissed Joined: Posts: 1,070
    Love Julia in BR. Has alot more tools and deserves her high spot, but it's alot of work to realize her potential(more than DR required).
    Being the only person to follow the rules, and then getting mocked relentlessly by my peers for it... that's the kind of shit that creates supervillans.
    -Shaft Agent

    SF4 Rose matches: http://www.youtube.com/user/ShinkuuR
  • XLCowBoyXLCowBoy Join Date: June 1991 Joined: Posts: 599
    I think Raven's highest damage juggles do have problems, but he still has good 60+ damage juggles that seem very consistent. Pretty much every character has juggles that need major changes needed depending on axis and the sort. So, juggle inconsistency is not as big of a deal as it was in past Tekken's. Aside from being a risk, inconsistent juggles, and so few players picking him up it is hard to spot why he is so low tier. His sidestep weakness is managable and he makes up his block punishment with strong whiff punishment. I am not saying he is top, but to put him lower than Xiaoyu/Zafina/Yoshi is almost a laugh.

    On Yoshi v Raven and to correct myself: I think they're both crap, but Yoshi's slightly better off. Both of them have terrible whiff issues, and while Raven can get by with whiff punishment (true), Yoshi gets by with block punishment and frame advantages, and while both have moves that are safe-ish (Raven's df1, df2>etc.), I'll say that Yoshi's got faster (better?) options to CH, and on CH, less likely to drop a juggle. I'll concede that his ff4 on CH does have whiff issues when off-axis too though.

    On Zafina: I honestly think she's the most underrated character because of all the on-paper frame discussions, citing how unsafe she is, etc. While I'm not saying she's probably top tier or anything, she's got some good decent tools. Try her out and see.

    On Xiaoyu: serious? Raven better than Ling? Or is it more of a match-up issue? e.g. Bryan REALLY has Lars' number for example. Bryan can completely shut down/frame trap/block punish Lars.
    If Tekken had a character that was a ball-sack, and it was playable, I'm pretty sure people would own with it. -FlyMike
  • 9thpixel9thpixel 9 Joined: Posts: 215
    Yoshi has bad tracking, unsafeness and does his best damage from setups. Yoshi also has bad matchups with any offense oriented character because he has no great ways to get pressure off him (flash does not cut it). Based on matchups alone, Raven wins so much more against the top tiers than Yoshi because Law, Steve, etc can lock Yoshi down. Yoshi gets by with better setups. His punishment is not that strong given pushback moves are unpunishible due to Yoshi ff+4 losing it's speed. The only place Yoshi really shines is where he always has and that is his ground game.

    Being a Zafina secondary player I can say that her greatest strength is her good backdash. Zafina's block punishment is weak with no Raven WS+1 to really help. She gets no launcher at -15 and Zaf d/f+2 is hardly the 4~3 that Raven has. So her whiff punishment and block punishment are lacking. Another thing to note is she struggles a bit with her SSL weakness.

    Raven vs Xiaoyu is both a match up and tier issue. In terms of matchup Xiaoyu has no good answer for Raven's d/f+1 or FC 3 which are a double dose of her worst nightmare with Feng b+4 and Jack d/b+1 all in one character. The only hope Xiao has is CH iWS+2~f to keep him from getting in range for the moves, but that is so much easier said than done without eating 4~3. In tiers Raven's whiff punishment, damage, lows, backturned mixups, and pokes are just better than Xiao's.
  • XLCowBoyXLCowBoy Join Date: June 1991 Joined: Posts: 599
    Re: Yoshi / Raven - Hmmm... I see your point actually. Raven db21, df1, etc. Although in the end, wouldn't it just end up being him and Yoshi on the same bracket? Raven with better punishment, Yoshi with better setups, but both still lacking go-to tools and attributes that can turn matches around? (juggle reliability, wall juice, strong oki, refloats, etc.)

    Re: Zaf - agree totally on the block punishment. I don't think that's her game though. I never really saw her as a wait-block-punish type of character. (Bob doesn't get a launcher at -15 either).

    Re: SSL - I stopped using regular SS unless it had an evasive move (Bob SS1+2) long ago. IMHO, Zaf's SW options are decent enough.

    Re: Xiaoyu - I'll take your word for it. I don't use her but I play against a pretty good Xiaoyu player on a regular basis.Maybe my opinion on her is a little biased because of him.

    ---

    I guess what we're ending up with looks something like this?

    Top 3:
    Bryan, Bruce, Alisa

    Top Others:
    Bob, Lars, Steve, Law, Nina, Julia, Jack, Paul, Baek, Lili

    Strong:
    King, Lee, Leo, Eddy, Feng, Miguel, D.Jin, Roger, Kaz, Hei

    Sorta mid tier-ish:
    Lei, Wang, Anna, Asuka, Christie, Ganryu, A.King, Dragunov

    Not that great, but still dangerous in the right hands:
    Jin, Hwo, Kuma, Marduk, Zafina, Ling

    If you're feeling lucky:
    Raven, Yoshimitsu, Mokujin
    If Tekken had a character that was a ball-sack, and it was playable, I'm pretty sure people would own with it. -FlyMike
  • 9thpixel9thpixel 9 Joined: Posts: 215
    If you are feeling lucky, are you serious? Yoshi and Raven are not that bad. Both of them have strong ground games. Especially Yoshi who can become quite the beast if he gets you knocked down at the wall. His sword sweep, mids and unblockables spark fear in any opponent downed near a wall. Raven's mixups are more than enough to turn a round completely around, being in a not so big list of characters that can juggle off hard to see lows makes him far from worthless. I think the balance of Tekken is much better than that.

    My opinion on tiers
    A: Alisa, Bob, Bruce, Bryan, Jack, Julia, Lars, Law, Lee, Lili, Nina, Paul, Steve
    B: Anna, A.King, Asuka, Baek, Christie, D.Jin, Dragunov, Eddy, Feng, Ganryui, Heihachi, Kazuya, King, Lei, Leo, Marduk, Miguel, Roger Jr
    C: Hwoarang, Jin, Kuma, Mokujin, Raven, Wang, Xiaoyu, Yoshimitsu, Zafina
  • 16 Bit16 Bit High Definition Graphics Joined: Posts: 77
    b12 is fast, safe, leaves the opp in NC on block


    that move is -12. I don't know what "NC on block" means. On block they're standing there with 12 frames to punish and no pushback.
  • XLCowBoyXLCowBoy Join Date: June 1991 Joined: Posts: 599
    that move is -12. I don't know what "NC on block" means. On block they're standing there with 12 frames to punish and no pushback.

    Hmmm... I wasn't aware of that. I always thought on block b12 left you in FC. (FC, not NC on block sorry)

    9thPixel: Kinda disagree with your B... Baek and Asuka on the same tier? Along with Marduk? Marduk's the type of character that if you're familiar with his move set, he's left with close to no pressure tools outside of d4 and throws, and to stop his opponent's momentum, has to rely on anticipating in order to reverse/counter/ch df3 d1. His juggles are also pretty crap. The most damaging and reliable (it's not even 100% on some characters/instances) non-wall one is: launcher, 2,d1+2, df32 B!, qcf12, from where he gets no follow up.

    A lot of his success comes from unfamiliarity.

    Re: Raven n Yoshi:
    Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here. It could be our comp (you're playing against a good Raven for example, while all the good Raven's around me have quit and moved to a different character), but I just can't see Raven being able to make a difference when it counts with what he has. Yoshi is similar, and though I feel he's better than Raven, he's still not as good as Jin and the others.

    P.S. Maybe I disagree because I don't feel that wall pressure against Yoshi. Bob has an answer for everything he has so... probably explains why.
    If Tekken had a character that was a ball-sack, and it was playable, I'm pretty sure people would own with it. -FlyMike
  • 16 Bit16 Bit High Definition Graphics Joined: Posts: 77
    No they're FC on hit.
  • Legend IILegend II Living Legend sequel. Joined: Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Questions.

    Marduk is Top 10 or Top 20?

    Alisa is Top 5 or Top 10?

    Zafina is Mid or Low Mid? She is much better than the usual bracket she is paired with.

    Why is Kazuya not considered Top Tier or at least Upper Mid if he is considered the best punisher in the game overall? That really doesn't makes sense. Best punisher at least makes Upper Mid in almost all fighting gams with very few exceptions.
    Never lose your dignity for anyone.
    MvCI: Gamora/Thanos, Gamora/Sigma
    KOF 14: Clark, Kula, Mai and Yuri, Ryuji, Terry
    Street Fighter 5: Laura, Abigail, Kolin
  • XLCowBoyXLCowBoy Join Date: June 1991 Joined: Posts: 599
    Legend:

    According to the Koreans, Alisa is the best character in the game... of course, that's what they say. If you look at the character rankings / tournament results chart though, Alisa appears more like top 5-10.

    Marduk? I can't say. While I think there are 20 characters who are better than him overall, against those same 20 characters, he actually has some good match-ups (e.g. he can deal with Lars, Jack, Miguel, etc. pretty well.)

    Kaz: I asked that same question to a Mishima player friend (former local TTT champion, so he knows his shit), and he said it's because 1) the BR system punishes Kaz's "new" linearity (his words, not mine), and 2) his pressure/properties have been nerfed from T6 to BR, so while he can punish like crazy, the options he has in order to create those situations aren't as good as they used to be (and are generally punishable as well).

    Again, if you go by tourney results over tier discussions, you'll see that the Mishima's are still ranked highly. I guess it's just that he's more of an expert's-only character now.

    16 bit: Cheers for the info. Bob f23 time then. :badboy:
    If Tekken had a character that was a ball-sack, and it was playable, I'm pretty sure people would own with it. -FlyMike
  • Legend IILegend II Living Legend sequel. Joined: Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Thanks XL.

    Interesting that I make the same question in Zaibatsu and never get real answers or information of any kind, just mocking and e-thugging. :lame:

    About Marduk, his launchers suck but his high damage juggles, wall carry and wallsplat game and VTS mixups are definitely noteworthy. That's why I'm curious.
    Never lose your dignity for anyone.
    MvCI: Gamora/Thanos, Gamora/Sigma
    KOF 14: Clark, Kula, Mai and Yuri, Ryuji, Terry
    Street Fighter 5: Laura, Abigail, Kolin
  • XLCowBoyXLCowBoy Join Date: June 1991 Joined: Posts: 599
    Thanks XL.

    Interesting that I make the same question in Zaibatsu and never get real answers or information of any kind, just mocking and e-thugging. :lame:

    About Marduk, his launchers suck but his high damage juggles, wall carry and wallsplat game and VTS mixups are definitely noteworthy. That's why I'm curious.

    His juggles aren't as high damage as you think. Lili actually deals more damage than Marduk. However, against "spammy" or straightforward characters (Miguel, Lars), he can stop the spam via his reversals, his d1+2 is a real high crush (but unsafe), and his other moves (df42, db2, d1) are great at creating block stun advantage.

    What sucks for him really is that all of his launchers are unsafe, his juggle damage isn't what it should be, and lastly, he has crap wall juice: he doesn't have any wall-friendly strings, and his wall throw is crap because he reaches really high, which means sometimes it whiffs, and even if it connects, he recovers too slowly for any real oki.

    In my experience (according to other people, my Marduk is decent - I can beat some of the better players here with him), using Marduk feels like a struggle. because at no point in the match will you feel you are completely dominating, as you don't have any quick tools outside of 1,d2 or df31, and df2 to create pressure. You're relying on reversals, crushing, whiff punishing and throws, of which the the last two aren't so great within the Tekken system because 1) better players are adept at escaping throws, and 2) it's hard to create opportunities that make the opponent whiff due to Marduk's size, and his crap punishment tools (df1 is 16f, df2,1 is only NCc, and df42 can whiff if the axis is a bit odd).
    If Tekken had a character that was a ball-sack, and it was playable, I'm pretty sure people would own with it. -FlyMike
  • xShonuffxxShonuffx Who's Da Masta? Joined: Posts: 563
    Lei is really hurting in the contribution part of his forums any info on how or why Lei is "sorta-Mid-Tierish" He's a complicated character and I think most people don't take the time to invest in mastering him. ANy Lei experts who believe he should be in that bracket?
  • JarekovJarekov Thou Art A Bear Joined: Posts: 1,995
    Lei is really hurting in the contribution part of his forums any info on how or why Lei is "sorta-Mid-Tierish" He's a complicated character and I think most people don't take the time to invest in mastering him. ANy Lei experts who believe he should be in that bracket?

    lei is a good character imo, probably a little over mid tier. He has some good juggles and stance shenanigans are always enjoyable.

    i dont think yoshi is much better off then raven though, theyre both crap characters. If yoshis flash were in its prime i think he would be a contender, but flash sucking so hard has killed alot of his game.
  • JarekovJarekov Thou Art A Bear Joined: Posts: 1,995
    that being said ive grown to love raven. he is super unreliable though unless you really know how to juggle with him.... which im learning.
  • Sleepy ZeroSleepy Zero The Other Lee Player Joined: Posts: 545
    Ling is good. People who say she's not have no idea how to play her.
    Upstate OG
  • 9thpixel9thpixel 9 Joined: Posts: 215
    Ling is good. People who say she's not have no idea how to play her.
    She is good compared to her low tier peers, but that is it.
  • Sleepy ZeroSleepy Zero The Other Lee Player Joined: Posts: 545
    She is good compared to her low tier peers, but that is it.

    You're a moron. She's solid mid at worst. I would like to hear some of your logical reasons why she's low tier cause I'm pretty sure you don't have any. She's got great lows, great throws, a 10 frame magic 4, good overall punishment, great Oki, fantastic pokes and run away tactics, solid wall game, she really has very few holes in her game at all and those that she has are minor. The only reason she isn't higher up on the tier list is because she isn't amazing at lots of stuff. She's no Bruce, Nina, or Bryan but she certainly is on par if not better than Bob who scrubs seem to believe is really good.
    Upstate OG
  • 9thpixel9thpixel 9 Joined: Posts: 215
    "She got great lows": SS+4 is her best low by far. The problems with it are that it's range is not good (less reach than Bruce's d+4), it's -13 on block meaning Law's WS+1,2, Nina WS+1,1+2 and such are free (and it hurts) and last is it's low damage which can be matched by most characters in the game with much faster low moves. The saving grace for the low is that it leads to a CH juggle, but I can count how many of those I land on one hand in a whole hour of casuals.

    "Great throws": She has the basics needed to compete. I think you mean the backturned throw setups which would be great had not Namco given other characters the same mixup with better options. Feng for example gets a three way throw mixup, where as Xiao only has a two way. Her backturned throw mixups is a strong part of her, but with her pokes either pushing back too far to throw sometimes or worse frames on block. Xiaoyu does not have it easy to get into position to use them.

    "great oki": Good oki, that is all. Much like Raven she can hurt you if she guesses right, but she either gets hurt or loses all of her momentum if she guesses wrong. Not to mention that the only time she can really use her oki is after a juggle.

    "fantastic pokes": Miguel has fantastic pokes. The only move that makes Xiao's pokes special is d/f+1, that in truth is not a real high crush because Steve b+1 and EWGF always hit it. Beyond that she has what she needs, but can not go toe to toe with Nina, Steve, Miguel, or other pokers and expect to win.

    "she really has very few holes in her game at all and those that she has are minor": You must be joking.. If Xiaoyu is not poking or turtling then she is taking risks and leaving holes. Unless the opponent whiffs something in her face she has to work for all her big damage. Not to mention she one of the easier characters to sidestep in the game (sidestep to your characters left against Xiao).

    She is low tier because her evasive tactics that worked in previous games has been toned to the point of being too risky to use often. Transitioning into AOP is now 6 frames slower forcing Xiaoyu to have to look for mids to duck under because AOP is too slow to launch an opponent's misplaced jab. Beyond AOP she had nothing that really set her up to be a threat because other characters can do everything else better. The only great strength she has left is the ignorance of her opponents. Much like she was thought as mid in T5/T5DR and slowly dropped to near bottom. Any thoughts that she is mid tier now will only wither away with the increasing knowledge of what she is capable of doing.
  • DANZANDANZAN NO SQUIGGERINO Joined: Posts: 6,569
    I thought Jin was high tier...
    angelpalm wrote: »
    People have to complain to counter act that massive influx of idiot gamers that just eat whatever shit pie developers and studios crap out in front of them. If people didn't complain we would all be playing NMS for years right along side the martian.
  • Sleepy ZeroSleepy Zero The Other Lee Player Joined: Posts: 545
    "She got great lows": SS+4 is her best low by far. The problems with it are that it's range is not good (less reach than Bruce's d+4), it's -13 on block meaning Law's WS+1,2, Nina WS+1,1+2 and such are free (and it hurts) and last is it's low damage which can be matched by most characters in the game with much faster low moves. The saving grace for the low is that it leads to a CH juggle, but I can count how many of those I land on one hand in a whole hour of casuals.

    SS+4 is her best low? WTF are you smoking dude. It's a good low but it sure as hell isn't her best. How about d+4. RD d+3, and d/b+4? Freakin d/b+4 forces FC on hit is like +7, is only -12, and KD on CH for a juggle. That low is GOD LIKE. RD d+3 is the same damn move. She has generic low kick which is one of the best lows you can have.
    "Great throws": She has the basics needed to compete. I think you mean the backturned throw setups which would be great had not Namco given other characters the same mixup with better options. Feng for example gets a three way throw mixup, where as Xiao only has a two way. Her backturned throw mixups is a strong part of her, but with her pokes either pushing back too far to throw sometimes or worse frames on block. Xiaoyu does not have it easy to get into position to use them.

    So are you really trying to say Ling's BT throws aren't good because other characters have BT throws too? WTF? It's unseeable throw breaks and Ling can do like 10 moves direct into RD for unseeable throw breaks. Any unseeable throw breaks equals great throws. Guess what there are only 7 characters in this game that can apply unseeable throw breaks, King, Armor King, Roger Jr, Lili, Feng, Raven, and Ling. Raven sucks at it so he shouldn't even really count, so Ling has a Top 10 throw game, there is now way around it, not to mention the Oki off of her throws is really good too.
    "
    "great oki": Good oki, that is all. Much like Raven she can hurt you if she guesses right, but she either gets hurt or loses all of her momentum if she guesses wrong. Not to mention that the only time she can really use her oki is after a juggle.

    First of all you just described all Oki. If you complete a juggle period that doesn't have Oki you lose moementum unless it's a wall combo anyway. Goes to show how much you know about this game. Please elaborate on the high risk of 3~4 and d/b+3? Yeah like I said she has better Oki than Lee does and that is saying something. She takes very little risk and can set up tech traps, relaunches, or makes you lay their and eat some hefty damage. Dude just cause YOU don't know about how good her Oki is doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    "
    "fantastic pokes": Miguel has fantastic pokes. The only move that makes Xiao's pokes special is d/f+1, that in truth is not a real high crush because Steve b+1 and EWGF always hit it. Beyond that she has what she needs, but can not go toe to toe with Nina, Steve, Miguel, or other pokers and expect to win.

    You're a retard because d/f+1 does go under Steve's b+1 and goes under all highs. It's a god poke and she has magic i10 magic 4, generic low kick, d/f+4 which is i12, and really you're going to have to explain how Miguel has fantastic pokes d/f+1 is good but it's range is to short for a poke. Maybe you don't understand the defenition of a poke, it's a move used to keep people away and play distance games with. Now that you know what a poke is please understand how Miguel other than like d+3 has no good pokes. d/f+1 is a god poke because of not only it's range and it's ability to go under highs but the fact that on hit she gets mix up on block she can just run away and rest. i10 magic 4 shouldn't need a description for why it is a good poke.

    "
    "she really has very few holes in her game at all and those that she has are minor": You must be joking.. If Xiaoyu is not poking or turtling then she is taking risks and leaving holes. Unless the opponent whiffs something in her face she has to work for all her big damage. Not to mention she one of the easier characters to sidestep in the game (sidestep to your characters left against Xiao).

    She's not easy to side step not compared to Lee she isn't and it doesn't mater because she's not a character that has to worry about that because her offense if done correctly will come in uninteruptable sperts. Like d/f+1 hits free BT mix up then if you guess right you get to continue ext. She doesn't have to take many risks at all. She can hit you get a little bit of damage and run away and she runs away better than almost any character. Seriously dude like your knowledge of Ling is SOOO bad it's hurting my brain. Do yourself a favor and give up on Ling.
    She is low tier because her evasive tactics that worked in previous games has been toned to the point of being too risky to use often. Transitioning into AOP is now 6 frames slower forcing Xiaoyu to have to look for mids to duck under because AOP is too slow to launch an opponent's misplaced jab. Beyond AOP she had nothing that really set her up to be a threat because other characters can do everything else better. The only great strength she has left is the ignorance of her opponents. Much like she was thought as mid in T5/T5DR and slowly dropped to near bottom. Any thoughts that she is mid tier now will only wither away with the increasing knowledge of what she is capable of doing.

    Both JT and Lingmassacre think she's better than she's been in years so your opinion doesn't mean crap compared to top Ling players. She's mid tier, JT thinks so, Koreans tier list says so, and who care about Japan's crap tier list but I'm sure they had her in B as well. She's incredibly underrated and just cause you can't play her well doesn't mean she's bad. Dude I play with Lingmassacre ever freakin week so I know more than you could ever hope to. Hell I could probably beat you in a set with Ling and I don't even play her. In fact I've never tried to play her ever and I bet I could beat you.

    Now SHUT UP AND GO PRACTICE.
    Upstate OG
  • ZeonTheUnbornZeonTheUnborn The One IX Joined: Posts: 2,726
    Legend:

    According to the Koreans, Alisa is the best character in the game... of course, that's what they say. If you look at the character rankings / tournament results chart though, Alisa appears more like top 5-10.

    Marduk? I can't say. While I think there are 20 characters who are better than him overall, against those same 20 characters, he actually has some good match-ups (e.g. he can deal with Lars, Jack, Miguel, etc. pretty well.)

    Kaz: I asked that same question to a Mishima player friend (former local TTT champion, so he knows his shit), and he said it's because 1) the BR system punishes Kaz's "new" linearity (his words, not mine), and 2) his pressure/properties have been nerfed from T6 to BR, so while he can punish like crazy, the options he has in order to create those situations aren't as good as they used to be (and are generally punishable as well).

    Again, if you go by tourney results over tier discussions, you'll see that the Mishima's are still ranked highly. I guess it's just that he's more of an expert's-only character now.

    16 bit: Cheers for the info. Bob f23 time then. :badboy:

    I was and still am under the impression that the best character in the game is still Lars.. As for top 5 I would say its Lars, Steve, Lili, Bruce, and my personal opinion...Feng Wei.
    I will win! I won't stop until I get them!

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  • 9thpixel9thpixel 9 Joined: Posts: 215
    SS+4 is her best low? WTF are you smoking dude. It's a good low but it sure as hell isn't her best. How about d+4. RD d+3, and d/b+4? Freakin d/b+4 forces FC on hit is like +7, is only -12, and KD on CH for a juggle. That low is GOD LIKE. RD d+3 is the same damn move. She has generic low kick which is one of the best lows you can have.
    d+4 is the generic low and does not give frames on hit like her other lows. The move is good for a quick high crush, but beyond that all it is good for is to be annoying. It does low damage and the negative frames on hit mean you have to have some respect for what the opponent may do.

    RDS D+3 is -13 on block which hurts against characters like Law and Nina and it is a risky low given it's slow speed out of such a risky stance with no crush properties. Not to mention it can be sidewalked in any direction which doesn't help her in that 90% of her moves out of RDS including her throws can be sidewalked left without any positive frame advantage. RDS ff+3 and RDS f+3+4,3+4 is all she has to reliably track left which leaves her one seeable to block after SWL launcher and the other a poke that is not a great threat.

    d/b+4 is better than it was in DR now that it does not whiff at random against the slightest sidesteps. However, it is good, but it's short reach makes it difficult to apply in ones game and it is weak to opponent's who sidewalk left. It also does 7 less damage than Xiaoyu's SS+4.

    SS+4 is her best low move. Doubling as a bit of tracking move to catch steppers, high crush, CH launcher, and it's reach for it's speed is about as good as it gets for Xiaoyu. However in the game it is far from being a top low move. Despite it's CH properties which is not easy to come by there are many lows that are better. Not saying Xiaoyu has the worst low game. Lee is an example of one that I would say is a bit worse, but an ok low game does not help much in tiers with examples of characters like Raven, Miguel and so on.
    So are you really trying to say Ling's BT throws aren't good because other characters have BT throws too? WTF? It's unseeable throw breaks and Ling can do like 10 moves direct into RD for unseeable throw breaks. Any unseeable throw breaks equals great throws. Guess what there are only 7 characters in this game that can apply unseeable throw breaks, King, Armor King, Roger Jr, Lili, Feng, Raven, and Ling. Raven sucks at it so he shouldn't even really count, so Ling has a Top 10 throw game, there is now way around it, not to mention the Oki off of her throws is really good too.
    No, if you would read things in total you would know that is not what I meant. The number of moves Xiao has to go into RDS does not help the problems she has once in it. Let me show you some examples.

    1,d+2: Her bread and butter string and most common entry to RDS mixups. While this move was ok in past Tekken's to go backturned now it is not. It is -3 on block now so without a hit, Xiaoyu now has to retreat and block the opponent's free mixup (1,d+2 was -2 on block in T5DR). She can not throw because hopkicks and 14 frame moves will beat them. The only option Xiao has is to RDS d+1 or RDS b+3 which can interupt 14 frame moves, but the opponent can just decide to sidewalk left and avoid most anything the Xiao attempts for a free whiff punish.

    d/f+1: -4 on block so the situation above is even more dire (d/f+1 was -1 in T5DR). Again unless she hits, she has to respect whatever the opponent decides to do. Another thing to note is if d/f+1 hits at around it's max range (which is pretty common) that means that her BT throw whiffs.
    First of all you just described all Oki. If you complete a juggle period that doesn't have Oki you lose moementum unless it's a wall combo anyway. Goes to show how much you know about this game. Please elaborate on the high risk of 3~4 and d/b+3? Yeah like I said she has better Oki than Lee does and that is saying something. She takes very little risk and can set up tech traps, relaunches, or makes you lay their and eat some hefty damage. Dude just cause YOU don't know about how good her Oki is doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    My point is that juggles are not easy to come by against a seasoned opponent, and the majority of her oki can only come from a juggle. So she can not use safer knockdown moves like other characters to take advantage of oki more often. There is not so much risk as there is an escape, because all of 4~3_d/b+3 oki mixups I am aware of the 4~3 can be siderolled out of in either direction. It really is a nagging problem for Xiao players like myself in a scene of players who found this out very early because she has no power moves like 4~3 that catch siderollers. I will admit my oki is not my strong point, but from what I know her jump over oki that really annoyed people in T5DR is not that great anymore. Given that getup 4 kick now hits her out of roo kick (RDS f+3+4,3+4).
    You're a retard because d/f+1 does go under Steve's b+1 and goes under all highs. It's a god poke and she has magic i10 magic 4, generic low kick, d/f+4 which is i12, and really you're going to have to explain how Miguel has fantastic pokes d/f+1 is good but it's range is to short for a poke. Maybe you don't understand the defenition of a poke, it's a move used to keep people away and play distance games with. Now that you know what a poke is please understand how Miguel other than like d+3 has no good pokes. d/f+1 is a god poke because of not only it's range and it's ability to go under highs but the fact that on hit she gets mix up on block she can just run away and rest. i10 magic 4 shouldn't need a description for why it is a good poke.
    Ok, you got me. I took it from experience that d/f+1 got hit by Steve b+1, but testing it in practice mode d/f+1 does crush. My apologies on that. Her 10 frame magic 4 is good and all, but to get more than the always guaranteed ff+3, RDS 4 requires Xiao to be on axis with the opponent and closer than max range.

    Not to mention that the deep ff+3, RDS 2... juggle after a CH 4 is just hard to land everytime. Because you almost have to know the 4 will CH before hand to have the time to dash.
    She's not easy to side step not compared to Lee she isn't and it doesn't mater because she's not a character that has to worry about that because her offense if done correctly will come in uninteruptable sperts. Like d/f+1 hits free BT mix up then if you guess right you get to continue ext. She doesn't have to take many risks at all. She can hit you get a little bit of damage and run away and she runs away better than almost any character. Seriously dude like your knowledge of Ling is SOOO bad it's hurting my brain. Do yourself a favor and give up on Ling.
    She has to rely on mostly highs or lows to really track. I do not have much experience against Lee, but I have noted that his u/f+4 knee seems to track better than it did in T5DR. I would much rather deal with getting poked out of a sidestep from Xiao than get launched for the attempt. I covered the risks behind d/f+1 which is -4 if Xiaoyu faces forward or back. I do not see where you see that as being so good, when so many other pokes in this game are -1 to even 0 on block. Xiao can work the strategy of poke someone and run away, but she is a far cry from the best at such. Alisa is clearly the best at it and even Zafina can work that strategy quite well with her monster backdash.
    Both JT and Lingmassacre think she's better than she's been in years so your opinion doesn't mean crap compared to top Ling players. She's mid tier, JT thinks so, Koreans tier list says so, and who care about Japan's crap tier list but I'm sure they had her in B as well. She's incredibly underrated and just cause you can't play her well doesn't mean she's bad. Dude I play with Lingmassacre ever freakin week so I know more than you could ever hope to. Hell I could probably beat you in a set with Ling and I don't even play her. In fact I've never tried to play her ever and I bet I could beat you.

    Now SHUT UP AND GO PRACTICE.
    I respect their opinions, but I will merely agree to disagree. I think it's been way too common for her to drop in the tier list to expect it to not happen this time. Besides, being low tier in Tekken 6 is not a bad thing. I have seen and experience some very solid play from the likes of Zafina, Yoshi, and Raven (the local best player's character). It is very easy over rate characters that beat you or give you problems, much like the local best player wipes the floor with me sometimes with Raven and I begin to think he is better than low tier. Regardless, I will shut up and practice. I have already put many hours of practice and produced some good works for other aspiring Xiao players, namely...
    Xiao Punishment List
    Tekken 6 Ling Xiaoyu Back 2 School
  • 7thFonon7thFonon Joined: Posts: 563
    Being that I don't really listen to tier lists, I'd have to say Xiaoyu is a lower mid tier at most. She has everything that she should have had in DR, 12 framer, a 14 framer besides df+1, and a hop kick. She still has SSR into AOP ... db+4 has more range. And if I remember correctly df 2~1 has 1 frame less recovery than DR. Overall she's pretty solid.
    But as far as frames go, she is pretty average, and has nothing special except for crush frames on d/f+1, SS+4, and AOP.... but that's not even an attack, that's just what could lead to an attack.

    So it's like Pixel said, she has holes in her offense... risks. You can't be suffocated by Xiaoyu without making prolonged hesitations or anything. No one can name one move that Xiaoyu has that's just stupid. Example of a stupid move = Julia's WR 2,1 being like 0+ on block but gives juggle on normal hit. Xiaoyu has nothing like that, everything she gets is from mixups that usually the opponent themself have to hesitate on. So unless you're going to look for CH SS+4's and not use RD, Xiaoyu's going to have to rely on baiting and hesitations from the opponent. So yeah, I'd say higher low tier to lower mid tier for Xiao....
  • t3h mAsTarOth...!t3h mAsTarOth...! KOF XIII...!!! Joined: Posts: 624
    I was and still am under the impression that the best character in the game is still Lars.. As for top 5 I would say its Lars, Steve, Lili, Bruce, and my personal opinion...Feng Wei.
    lars in not the best in the game... best characters in the game r steve, bob, bryan, bruce, law as all rounders... best grappler in the game is king... and best punishment character is kazuya...
    SaMsTarOth t3h mAsTarOth of AsTarOth...!

    KOF XIII - http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php
  • iori666iori666 Joined: Posts: 95
    according KNEE interview from European tournament

    top 6 characters in BR

    Steve, Devil Jin, Bryan, Law, Lars, Alisa

    worst

    Kuma&Panda
  • Perfect LegendPerfect Legend Messatsu Joined: Posts: 632
    sorry double post
    Hey guys I am new to this game. Who is the #1 character?
  • Perfect LegendPerfect Legend Messatsu Joined: Posts: 632
    according KNEE interview from European tournament

    top 6 characters in BR

    Steve, Devil Jin, Bryan, Law, Lars, Alisa

    worst

    Kuma&Panda

    You have a link to the interview?
    Hey guys I am new to this game. Who is the #1 character?
  • Sleepy ZeroSleepy Zero The Other Lee Player Joined: Posts: 545
    Ling's garbage right? She's mid tier at worst. That's why there were two Ling players in the Top 10 at Final Round right?
    Upstate OG
  • ThreeliThreeli Joined: Posts: 21
    Rain was quoted @ strongstyle as saying his top 5 were:
    - Bryan
    - Bryan
    - Bryan
    - Bryan
    - Bryan

    And he's not even a Bryan player :lol: I think everyone can agree though that the gap in T6BR from high-low tier is pretty small.
  • 7thFonon7thFonon Joined: Posts: 563
    Ling's garbage right? She's mid tier at worst. That's why there were two Ling players in the Top 10 at Final Round right?

    If you think Xiaoyu is low, mid, top, whatever... Go with it. It's better to have your own tier lists anyways.


    I don't think anyone said she was garbage. But you seem to not get that she has nothing (but mind-games and evasion) over other characters.

    -16 frame hop kick while most other characters are 15 frames (though I am happy she has a hop kick)...
    -Her u/f+4 is dumb when you compare it to Bryan's.... he get a faster version of Xiaoyu's u/f+4 that launches on normal hit.
    -She's no longer at a speed advantage with jabs since everyone has 10 framers in BR.
    -Jab punishment is like 20 damage, while characters like Jin or LiLi get a 2, 4 that does 30+ damage and knocks down.
    -She finally gets a 12 frame punisher, but it's like -16 on block and does less damage than the 10 frame punishers mentioned above.

    Xiaoyu does have advantages with SSR due to AOP but it's nothing more stupid than LiLi's or Alisa's SS anywhere. Raindance mixups can be dangerous for Xiaoyu if they aren't short-lived / low reward. So even her advantageous traits aren't overpowered. I could make another list (but I won't) of many traits that other characters have that are better than Xiaoyu's in terms of safety AND reward.

    I'll still look at Xiaoyu as being lower mid.... but for someone else, she might be a problem.... I don't know because Tekken has always been me playing as Xiaoyu and nothing but Xiaoyu. So I won't deny that my opinion could be biased since I'm used to seeing that character every time I turn on the PS3. But really man.... There have been a number of BR tournaments. And as soon as some Xiaoyu's place in the top 10 it changes everything? Not to mention Xiaoyu has placed high in major tournaments in DR as well http://sdtekken.com/2008/08/14/evolution-2008-results/, does that mean that Xiaoyu was the 5th best character in Dark Resurrection?



    tl;dr version :

    Just make your own tier list and go by your experiences, not other peoples' results, and wins.
  • Perfect LegendPerfect Legend Messatsu Joined: Posts: 632
    Rain was quoted @ strongstyle as saying his top 5 were:
    - Bryan
    - Bryan
    - Bryan
    - Bryan
    - Bryan

    And he's not even a Bryan player :lol: I think everyone can agree though that the gap in T6BR from high-low tier is pretty small.

    That was Tongbal Love who said that.
    Hey guys I am new to this game. Who is the #1 character?
  • Sleepy ZeroSleepy Zero The Other Lee Player Joined: Posts: 545
    If you think Xiaoyu is low, mid, top, whatever... Go with it. It's better to have your own tier lists anyways.


    I don't think anyone said she was garbage. But you seem to not get that she has nothing (but mind-games and evasion) over other characters.

    -16 frame hop kick while most other characters are 15 frames (though I am happy she has a hop kick)...
    -Her u/f+4 is dumb when you compare it to Bryan's.... he get a faster version of Xiaoyu's u/f+4 that launches on normal hit.
    -She's no longer at a speed advantage with jabs since everyone has 10 framers in BR.
    -Jab punishment is like 20 damage, while characters like Jin or LiLi get a 2, 4 that does 30+ damage and knocks down.
    -She finally gets a 12 frame punisher, but it's like -16 on block and does less damage than the 10 frame punishers mentioned above.

    Xiaoyu does have advantages with SSR due to AOP but it's nothing more stupid than LiLi's or Alisa's SS anywhere. Raindance mixups can be dangerous for Xiaoyu if they aren't short-lived / low reward. So even her advantageous traits aren't overpowered. I could make another list (but I won't) of many traits that other characters have that are better than Xiaoyu's in terms of safety AND reward.

    I'll still look at Xiaoyu as being lower mid.... but for someone else, she might be a problem.... I don't know because Tekken has always been me playing as Xiaoyu and nothing but Xiaoyu. So I won't deny that my opinion could be biased since I'm used to seeing that character every time I turn on the PS3. But really man.... There have been a number of BR tournaments. And as soon as some Xiaoyu's place in the top 10 it changes everything? Not to mention Xiaoyu has placed high in major tournaments in DR as well http://sdtekken.com/2008/08/14/evolution-2008-results/, does that mean that Xiaoyu was the 5th best character in Dark Resurrection?



    tl;dr version :

    Just make your own tier list and go by your experiences, not other peoples' results, and wins.

    Man you're just like pixel. How do I know more about your own character than you do? I'm sorry but everything said is basically wrong. By the way that guy who playced at EVO is the guy I play with every week Justin Luria AKA Avarus AKA Lingmassacre. So yeah please watch his vids and learn how good she is. I'm not going to talk about how ignorante your statements on her punishment is because you just clearly haven't taken the time to research your own character.

    Just keep playing her maybe you'll finally understand.
    Upstate OG
  • 7thFonon7thFonon Joined: Posts: 563
    Man you're just like pixel. How do I know more about your own character than you do? I'm sorry but everything said is basically wrong. By the way that guy who playced at EVO is the guy I play with every week Justin Luria AKA Avarus AKA Lingmassacre. So yeah please watch his vids and learn how good she is. I'm not going to talk about how ignorante your statements on her punishment is because you just clearly haven't taken the time to research your own character.

    Just keep playing her maybe you'll finally understand.

    Did it ever occur to you that your buddy, LingMassacre, is just a good player? Don't confuse talent with a good character.

    And I know nothing about my character? Why is it that I can place in tournaments? I guess everyone else I've beaten knows nothing about their characters as well, right? Sure, I'm not gonna place in National-level tournies like your friend, but I know what I'm doing.

    And I LOVE how I give cold hard facts, and you respond with nothing but your own opinion saying, " I'm not going to talk about this because your wrong, because I played that guy who placed at EVO". Awesome Conversation. Don't let more people like you come into this forum.

    Person A: "Oh man, Asuka has parries and can kick stuff, and this guy I know placed high in a major tournament, she's top tier"
    Person B: "Nah man, this dude who lives down the street from me uses Yoshimitsu. He's definitely higher on the tier list"




    People talking about what "other" players think tiers are.... and posters that confuse talent with good characters.

    This tier list discussion has officially become a joke.
  • FlyMikeFlyMike Rsk Rating $$$ Joined: Posts: 3,091
    People talking about what "other" players think tiers are.... and posters that confuse talent with good characters.

    This tier list discussion has officially become a joke.

    I thought it was from the beginning?
    Flown Michaels.
  • Super_YanSuper_Yan Joined: Posts: 513
    I wanted to post something but 7thFonon pretty much said it all. Sleepy Zero how could you say "I'm sorry but everything you said is basically wrong" when 7th posted accurate frame data in which he (or she?) used to show how some of the "good" moves you're describing are par with others.

    One thing I like about Tekken is that it's more balanced than games like MvC2 and SFIV; and because of that, it's really hard to create a definitive tier list for this game. Honestly every single person I've talked to about it says Ling is solid mid. SOLID mid. She doesn't deal the bullsh damage required to be considered a top-tier character, and yes she has good shit like RDS throws, SS+4, shoulder, whatever else you wanna add in.. so she can't really be considered low-tier either. She's just mid. Jesus Christ.

    Also I'd agree Bryan is probably the best character in the game... in theory. He has all the potential, but he only has the skill of the person behind the stick.
    "SWEEP THE FEET"
  • MurakumoMurakumo Stretchy limb whore Joined: Posts: 374
    Matchups are more important than a solid tier list in T6.

    Top tiers seem to have fewer bad matchups.
    Lower tiers tend to have more bad matchups, even when there are a few that they fight very well.

    Because a character is low on the tier list does not necessarily mean that said character will have an uphill battle against every character.

    Different characters play into different strengths or playstyles, too.

    Adv on block and frames (or general pressure)
    -Steve
    -Roger
    -Nina

    Evasiveness [movement, not stances]
    -Lili
    -Alisa

    Whiff punishing
    -Kuma/Panda
    -many honorable mentions

    Block punishing
    -Kaz
    -Lars
    -Paul

    Walls
    -Bryan
    -Jack
    -Steve

    Carry
    -Lee
    -Nina

    Some characters carry particular weaknesses with them. Asuka has horrible punishes. Lee is - frames after hitting his main lows. Lotsa chars have weakenesses to people stepping/walking in certain directions (this is why Kaz is lower on the tier list than D.Jin).

    Because of chars' specific strengths and weaknesses, any char may be a particularly good matchup in one fight, but not in another. Lee is not bad vs. Bryan, for example (Bry sway+4 is minimally punishable at range, but Lee gets WS+3,3 at most ranges on blocked ff+4, which most chars cannot punish [Lei can, also]) meaning he can cut out some of Bryan's tracking game, but he has issues against chars who can play off of momentum well (Roger, Nina, Steve) since his main lows are - on hit--the opponent doesn't really need to duck since, if they get hit by one of those lows, the game is back to them. Against Steve, if you know your frames well enough to avoid [CH]b+1, d+3 will beat out Steve options and is minimally punishable (WS+1,2 as opposed to many chars' launch punish).

    This game is more about matchups than old games like Tag. Tag had some specific counterpicks in some cases, but what was abusable against one character was generally abusable against all characters. There was a lot of safety in that game compared to now, too. Different tools' properties will skew risk/reward up or down depending on the matchup.

    RE: Bryan
    If you cannot taunt cancel with Bryan, he is only mid-tier. Without that, you lose free win with wall, you lose pressure/mind games, and you miss 50/50 juggle oki.
    When I played Sunchip in Korea, if you teched in juggle and guessed wrong, you were eating taunt:f,b+2 into a new juggle mid-stage. Wall was always taunt:b+4, f,b+2, (w), U/F,N+4, b+3,1+2, B!, qcf+3,4 back into taunt games. Without taunt cancel ability, it's just not so scary. If you tried to turtle too much, he was also perfectly capable of dash, taunt~JU. I also feel that Bryan has his spot as the best, but requires the most dexterity of the top tier to get there. Even Nina's flapping combo is easy compared to consistent taunt canceling.
    Once upon a time, Cable had full life... [Sim] (f)c.lp+Sent-a<s.mp,xx,/ \, (Sent-a hits), airdash F, falling (c)lk, \ /, [d/f+hp,/ \, d+hp,hk, (f)lk<mp, \ /]xN, and qcf+kk at corner... THE END! ^_^;
  • iyokuraizeniyokuraizen Joined: Posts: 1
    seriously steve is easy to counter

    all you need to do is DUCK and more than half his arsenal is immobilized.... steve is a pure agressive character and if his back 1 is worthless... guess what he's pretty much worthless... good luck trying to get in close and trying to pull off a PAB... with so many characters with good poke/keep out game I really feel he is at best an A tier. His ducking cancel shenanigans are almost worthless against people like paul or anyone with a quick mid smack... not to mention high crush owns his ass, seriously he's scary in the beginning but just add ducking into your game and he's nothing but a cripple... he needs better mids seriously, i main steve and get my ass owned sometimes by brians and pauls simply because they can punish so much shit
  • Bad Lt.Bad Lt. Joined: Posts: 878
    I thought it was from the beginning?

    correct

    also, lol @ 2 things:
    1. how many posts and views this thread in particular has compared to the rest of them in the Tekken section
    2. the fact that there IS a Tekken section on SRK

    for a forum full of people who constantly bitch about tier whoring in 2D games, there's an awful lot of caring about tier lists around here. fact is, T6 is more balanced than any game you've ever played before. it's just that most of you will never play it enough to figure that out.
    Me: 1
    Conrad Birmingham: 0
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