The SF4 Juggle System:

13

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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    The Cammy super thing is wrong, I can connect EX cannon spike after last-hit trade. you must have messed up the hitboxes. normal cannon spike only juggles on the initial hit, not while Cammy is in the air. And your Ken test must be faulty, I connected a normal HP SRK after a 2-hit super in that situation.
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  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    Blanka's super has JP 4 ,not infinite.If you do super, super only one hit will juggle, so it's not infinite.It does juggle fully after electricity tough, so my guess it's that it has JP 4.It seems that some supers in SF4 (not projectiles) raise the counter by a heck of a lot more that 1.Take blanka here.I think his super raises the juggle counter by 4.Or trading hits with the last hit of cammy's super will make cannon spike which has JP 1 wiff, so that one hit of the super raises the counter to at least 2.Same with ken's.If you do CH HP SRK xx super they will be in float state until the last hit, and the last hit single-handedly raises the counter to 2 so only EX SRK connect with it's last hit.And there are more examples of this, some easily demonstreated with a trade.I think it's the same for sagat's super.
    Strange way how supers work when they juggle.

    Actually, at least your ken example, would coincide with my theory finely. The last hit of Ken's super in that situation would raise the counter to 1, which makes the last hit of his EX SRK the only hit that's able to connect. Remember, it's not moves that have the same JP as the counter, it's moves that have more jp than the counter.
    The Cammy super thing is wrong, I can connect EX cannon spike after last-hit trade. you must have messed up the hitboxes. normal cannon spike only juggles on the initial hit, not while Cammy is in the air. And your Ken test must be faulty, I connected a normal HP SRK after a 2-hit super in that situation.

    And again, videos would help greatly "in that situation" is somewhat vague and it'd be easier to just see it.
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    I had to wake up 4 hours later, didn't feel like recording it. just FA -> 2 hit HP SRK on second state xx super, which only connects with the 2 last hits (with that I mean the 5th and 6th hit, not the 3rd and 6th hit.) -> HP SRK. Did it on Ryu. I've noticed that the first SRK of super doesn't whiff on every character.
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  • Smileymike101Smileymike101 Joined: Posts: 1,139
    Yeah i noticed that too.Then maybe specific hits of it add to the juggle counter?
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Kens super is a little fucked up.
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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    I think alot of supers (perhaps Ultras)

    Have attacks that hit but keep the character on the same juggle count. (Sagat & Ken come to mind) it seems to me with Ken, that if the last hit hits, then it increases the counter, if it doesn't then it seems the character stays at whatever count they started on.

    Perhaps the attack stat Kich has called FKR Float Knockdown Reset) is actually just an attack that adds 0 to the juggle counter. For example if you have a move that has a Potential of 1, (we'll call it move X) but also has FKR & causes Float knockdown. Then these two standards become available

    Hit enemy in to float knockdown, then do X move, enemy stays in Float

    Hit enemy in to standard knockdown, Do X move, enemy stays in Standard knockdown.

    ---

    But with nextto no moves on JP1 with FKR to test this (Besides Kens EX SRK?) it's all just wild speculation.
  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    Perhaps the attack stat Kich has called FKR Float Knockdown Reset) is actually just an attack that adds 0 to the juggle counter. For example if you have a move that has a Potential of 1, (we'll call it move X) but also has FKR & causes Float knockdown. Then these two standards become available
    well, I'm still not entirely sure of the system but yes this is basically true

    the things i know:
    the hit data a move has what another modder gojira referred to as "juggle class" before we knew much of the system, most hits have 01 as their juggle class. I suspect juggle class is simply how much the move increments the counter.. to some extent. Hitting with a 0 again might increment the counter by 1 that time, not sure, but it definitely increases. This number does NOT effect what it can juggle from, just what the hit can juggle TO. In the animation data on the other hand is the "juggle potential" as you are referring to it. It is usually 4 bytes worth of data (one byte is 0-255, usually in hex), most moves are "01 00 01 01". I'm not entirely sure what the 01s have to do with it but I do know that ultras like Ryu's tend to have the first 01 be 07 instead. The 2nd number, the 00, is pretty much the "juggle potential" that you are referring to. If a move with 00 juggle class hits and launches, then you are in the "float knockdown" or whatever, which isn't really a separate state, and then a "01 00 01 01" move can hit, but it is the only state in which that can hit. now most moves that can juggle just have a number like "01 01 01 01" or similar. Most of the hurricane kicks have like each hit be 1 higher in the juggle potential.

    in this example I set lk cannon spike and her j.hk and her airthrow to have a juggle potential of 32. I also had to turn on a flag somewhere else copied off abel's antiair throw that allows throws to juggle in the first place (same location that says whether attacks high low mid or unblockable, or whether throws can grab ground or air or both)

    An interesting fact about throws and juggling into throws: throws are generally 2 hits (more for throws like rufus's typing on the chest throw), first an invisible hit that starts the throw, and a second one that does damage. During the throw animation the opponent is still in juggle state as far as the game is concerned, so if the 2nd hit of the throw does not have high enough juggle potential, then the throw animation will play but no damage will result. Another interesting fact that never comes up in normal SF4: a throw resets the juggle counter even if the throw cause juggle state. I originally had made cammy's airthrow cause juggle state but then pretty soon I realize that I had created an airthrow infinite despite it only having a juggle potential of 3 at the time
    example of a throw that causes juggle state:


    I know that the first hit of ken's ultra that causes full ultra has a JP of 00 for example, change it to say, 20, and the ultra pretty much hits off everything now.

    in this video:

    tiger uppercut is normal
    f.rh has a juggle potential of 03 instead of default 01 (and a juggle class of 00 instead of 01),
    j.hk has 32 instead of 00

    if f.rh hits on its own without the tiger uppercut you can do 4 of them instead of just 3 and the jhk


    I'm working on deciphering the exact format of the file specifically until I can write a program that will take this data and output it to more human readable table.. the problem is that the juggle class and other things aren't always in the same place and I'm not sure of the system going on, I've been doing everything by guess-and-check type methods and just seeing the patterns with my own eyes. i don't know how to tell a computer to do it yet, i'm missing something big here
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    An interesting fact about throws and juggling into throws: throws are generally 2 hits (more for throws like rufus's typing on the chest throw), first an invisible hit that starts the throw, and a second one that does damage. During the throw animation the opponent is still in juggle state as far as the game is concerned, so if the 2nd hit of the throw does not have high enough juggle potential, then the throw animation will play but no damage will result.
    Is this also what happens when Seth's Ultra knocks you into a Sonic Boom? The SB counts as one hit, but after the Ultra the combo meter displays 2, which means you don't get hit by the bulk of the move.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Thing is, you can still connect the rest of the hits sometimes. I think it has something to do with hitboxes. This is how I see it: http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee205/Da_doppen/Sethultrawhiffthesis.jpg

    And when it comes to the sonic boom, I think it has to hit the opponent when he is already pushed back fulle from the ultra for the hits to be dislocated, I think that if the sonic boom connects while the opponent is being pushed back from the ultra, they will end up in the usual position.
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  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    Is this also what happens when Seth's Ultra knocks you into a Sonic Boom? The SB counts as one hit, but after the Ultra the combo meter displays 2, which means you don't get hit by the bulk of the move.

    could you post a video or more specifically describe the setup of this? i tried doing it and i was getting normal ultra damage
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Try doing sonic boom under an opponent in the air, then FADC ultra. Thing is, as I said, this sometimes gives full ultra damage as well.
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  • Smileymike101Smileymike101 Joined: Posts: 1,139
    I posted a comment on the last page of seth "Seth in SF4" in SSF4 section, regarding why ultra pushing them into sonic boom sometimes grants full hits, and sometimes just the last one, which holds up to what Anotak says he found out while searching through SF4's engine
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Thing is, that is simply not true. I have seen it whiff on grounded opponents, and When I managed to connect the full ultra yesterday, I hit an airborne opponent. And because it sometimes whiff aster c.HP, it simple can't be because of juggle limitations.

    Maybe I should do a video about it, I have no other projects atm.

    EDIT: Bah, looks like I tried too hard to prove my own theory right.
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  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    gouken's fireballs have infinite juggle, not sure entirely what's happening there but:
    most moves' juggle are is like 01 00 01 01, w/ the 2nd 00 being the juggle potential and i've not been sure on the other two. Gouken's fireballs have 01 00 00 00.
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    That's curious, my guess is that one of the last two is a stat displaying how much the move increases the juggle potential, second set may be adjustements for say, hitting in air.

    Give us those stats for a certain few moves & we'll probably be able to figure it out

    Kens LP/MP/HP SRK & Maybe EX To - has altered aerial propperties for the HP SRK, others for comparrison

    Akumas LP/MP/HP SRK - the move is easy to understand & has predicatble hit propperties

    Ken EX Fireball - To compare to Ryu's Projectile

    Akuma EX Fireball (standard) - To compare to Ryu's projectile

    Ryu's EX Hadouken - Has a greater hit propperty than it's usual counterparts

    Kens LK Tatsumaki - Has peculiar hit propperties

    Goukens EX Palm - To compare to Goukens fireball

    If you can get us them we'll probably figure this all out. Could probably o it with less, but i think this is enough to crack it.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    I think you should compare those stats with the stats of the first hit of Ryus j.MP. They SHOULD be the same.
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  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    yeah first hit of ryu's jmp is 01 01 01 01 and 2nd is 01 00 00 00
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Wth? it should be the other way around. The 2nd hit has a JP of 1, first hit has a JP of 0, and first hit juggles indefinitely. Maybe they just write them in the reverse order for some reason?
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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Wth? it should be the other way around. The 2nd hit has a JP of 1, first hit has a JP of 0, and first hit juggles indefinitely. Maybe they just write them in the reverse order for some reason?

    It has to be, otherwise these stats would make no sense >_<
  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    doh i guess just said it in the wrong order i opened the file and its like you guys are saying my bad.

    uhh it appears i overlooked something here though his j.mp appears to have 3 hits listed wtf, i'll figure out whats up with that tomorrow but i'm about to pass out right now

    01 00 00 00 twice and then the 01 00 01 01
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    I guess the first hit Hit's differendly on juggle or on the ground, which might require a 2nd hit. If you look at Seths close s.HP, Sakuras close s.HP and Sakuras close s.HK, they should have 2 hits as well.
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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    ^^Why those attacks?^^


    I've often wondered if attacks have more than the standard attacks. Like for example alot of SRK's have a ground damage & AA damage, these attacks could easily be masked by juggle propperties. Like say if you do a HP SRK with Ryu it's first hit knocks them in to standard knockdown & if it's AA attack (That does different damage) is incapable of juggling from standard knockdown then it just won't hit.

    But that would mean Ryu's HP SRK would have two hits attached to it. Would you be able to varify this Anotak? IF these files alone arn't very big compiledwell would you be able to upload them? I'd love to peruse through these things.

    (Though i have no idea how reading in game files works, i could be asking for something not possible, sorry)
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    ^
    Every collision capable part of a move that is split up into blocks (I think 24 of them, but only the first 11 or 12 are usually relevant). Each block represents the state of your opponent. So you'd have a block for standing, crouching, standing block, crouching block, aerial, counter-hit while standing etc etc etc, and within these blocks are the values for damage, hit animation, sound effects etc.

    Sometimes a move may have multiple parts that can hit, but it's not obvious so because each part has the same or similar effect. An example is Blanka's s.HK (backflip kick). Each active part of this move does the same damage etc, but only the first active part is super-cancellable.

    So when it comes to Ryu's DP, it's very possible that it has descriptors for move than 1 part of the DP. IIRC, in SFIV it's capable of hitting at two stages while he is grounded, and at any stage during the air.
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    i see, thanks for clearing that up for me.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    The moves I mentioned are non-super cancable on high AA hit, They might do different damage as well, at least Seths s.HP does.
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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Small Update i guess

    ---

    Seths Ultra is a bit more peculisr than expected.

    Split the move in to 3 segments.

    First hit is JP0

    Second Set is JP0

    Final hit is JP1 (Or more, but doesn't matter)

    the reason this matters is because depending the characteristic of how the first hit hits, the enemy can still be knocked in to JP 1 status. To test this:

    Let the enemy jump over a sonic boom, do ultra when they land, as they're pushed back they're still grounded, so the full combo hits. Now set the opp to jump & hit them with the second hit of his CR.HP & HP Sonic boom -> FADC then Ultra them as they fall. The opponent is in float knockdown so when the Ultra hits they remain in float knockdown (Or air state) when the sonic boom hits themfrom behind they go to JP1 & the whole middle section of the movedoesn't hit.

    This matters because a common strategy with Seth is to throw sonic booms & Ultra the enemy when they jump over it, if you do hit them anti-air you end up with an Ultra that does 3 hits, (With the sonic boom) & is massively weaker.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Found this just now:

    El Fuerte:

    Far s.HK
    1: JP = 0 - CCSK
    2: Can't hit aerial float.

    Video proof:

    Also his close s.HK does standard knockdown, not hard.
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  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    rose's ultra's initial hit that starts the cinematic has JP of 0 but all hits during the cinematic have a JP of 127 (7f hex).

    modding it to making reflect fadc ultra work took me less than 5 seconds

    edit: rose's f.rh puts into juggle type 01 ("standard knockdown" but i do not agree with that terminology) when it hits antiair.

    edit: speaking of rose comboing into ultra here's an example... making juggle into soul throw (not pictured in video) was harder but possible too.
  • walnut shrimpwalnut shrimp Joined: Posts: 375
    Chun's first stomp only has a JP of 2.

    If it had a JP of 4, you'd be able to juggle after 4 hits of ex legs if the opponent was standing, but that doesn't work. If you want to connect stomp after ex legs, you have to fadc after the second hit at the latest. I wish she could have sick stomp juggles off ex legs.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Looks like I forgot to tell him to correct that, thanks. Also, he still haven't fixed EX SBK: http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=219594&p=8277489&viewfull=1#post8277489
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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Btw, I have no idea what I was smoking when I wrote that stuff about Yoga Mummy before. It doesn't connect after AA ultra.

    Dhalsim:

    Yoga Mummy:
    JP = 1 - CCSK

    Simple as that.

    Also, first hit of EX Yoga fire puts them in float knockdown on counterhit when they are in the air.

    Yoga Fire EX:
    1: JP = 1 - CCSK -CCFK
    2: JP = 1 - CCSK
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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Counterhit only? Wierd
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Yes, very. I was just experimenting a little, and suddenly I air-resetted my opponent with s.HP after a 1-hit EX Yoga Fire, and of course I had to go to the bottom with it. A simple way to try is it testing AA EX YF -> EX Yoga Thrust, with and without CH.
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  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    this isn't weird, any hit state can be set by counterhit.

    counterhit is treated completely separately from normal hit, pretty much any property can be changed from normal hit except things like cancelling properties.

    basically you have
    1 - standing hit
    2 - crouch hit
    3 - jumping / juggling / 2nd part of focus crumple hit
    4 - stand block
    5 - crouch block
    6 - ??? unused air block?
    7 - stand counterhit
    8 - crouch counterhit
    9 - jumping counterhit
    10 - ?
    11 - ?
    12 - ?

    basically they can set anything to anything if they wanted to, we're just benefited by them HAPPENING to universally make things do a certain amount extra damage on counterhit for example.

    for example, here i modded rog's jab to cause crumplestate on counterhit:
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    this isn't weird, any hit state can be set by counterhit.

    counterhit is treated completely separately from normal hit, pretty much any property can be changed from normal hit except things like cancelling properties.

    basically you have
    1 - standing hit
    2 - crouch hit
    3 - jumping / juggling / 2nd part of focus crumple hit
    4 - stand block
    5 - crouch block
    6 - ??? unused air block?
    7 - stand counterhit
    8 - crouch counterhit
    9 - jumping counterhit
    10 - ?
    11 - ?
    12 - ?

    basically they can set anything to anything if they wanted to, we're just benefited by them HAPPENING to universally make things do a certain amount extra damage on counterhit for example.

    for example, here i modded rog's jab to cause crumplestate on counterhit:

    I just meant it's weird that they added that, it has no real use. I mean, when do you hit AA CH EX Yoga fire in a real match? And the only thing you can do from it is another EX move for one hit. Or Yoga mummy, but yeah, you need to set that up in advance.

    So now we know 6 moves that works differently on CH:

    lvl.1 FA
    AA lvl.2 FA (They enter that spinning animation like a lvl.3 AA FA)
    Tiger uppercut (Same thing here)
    df.LK with Chun (standard knockdown)
    1st hit of Ken's HP SRK (Float knockdown)
    1st hit of AA CH EX Yoga fire (Float knockdown)

    Does anyone know any other moves?
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  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    i think they were going to make it a more universally present function like it is on tekken / blazblue etc but then it either got cut (either they thought it's stupid or they ran out of time, or they just forgot about it like how they forgot to make blanka's hitboxes work right because they made him early in development)
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Yeah, that is possible. I wish they kept it so that every counterhit move on someone in the air puts them in standard/float knockdown instead of resetting them though.
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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    ^^Seems a bit broken that i mean everyone would be J.LK because a counter hit would mean big combo (or at least a reset attempt of SRK)^^
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    But the combo possibilities!
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  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    it wouldn't be that broken because antiair counterhits are pretty rare except against sim/seth, and also when people with juggle air2air normals but those juggle anyway
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    I'm working on a video with proof of a lot of stuff that is wrong in the main post. Btw Anotak, do you think you could check the JP for the hits in Dan's Super? I have a theory, I want to know if it is true.

    Dan Super:
    1: JP = 0 - CCSK
    2: JP = 1 - CCSK
    3: JP = 2 - CCSK
    4: JP = 3 - CCSK
    :
    :
    18: JP = 17 - CCSK
    19: JP = Infinite - CCSK - Knock Down (Standard)

    Here's the vid (Still processing atm):
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  • MienaikageMienaikage Mitarashi Dango: Data Devourer Joined: Posts: 263


    Just a short and simple Ken video demonstrating how minor differences can have major effects :P
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Yes, the first hit doesn't have FKR, only the 2nd hit.
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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Goukens backthrow doesn't cause float knockdown, it appears it hits as if the enemy is standing... So it's not even float knockdown, well, even that doesn't define it... moves will cause reset. howeve it's peculiar.

    first hit of his Tatsu causes float knockdown but not reset, so a second makes standard. However you can do backthrow then Tatsu then Ultra. Which shouldn't work.

    Unless i'm mistaken >_<
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    You mean it hits like they we're simply jumping? i assume you mean because EX palm hits twice.
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  • Smileymike101Smileymike101 Joined: Posts: 1,139
    Kich, why don't you update the OP?
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    You mean it hits like they we're simply jumping? i assume you mean because EX palm hits twice.

    Yeah, basically that. (Does Gouken have any moves that act differently on standing/jumping opponent (that do some form of knockdown on both)
    Kich, why don't you update the OP?

    If Kich has done a runner or not keeping track i'll take the responsobility of making an updates SSFIV version of this thread. ^_^ But he still may be around, who knows.
  • MienaikageMienaikage Mitarashi Dango: Data Devourer Joined: Posts: 263
    I'm assuming that because Gouken's back throw doesn't actually hit the opponent it isn't considered a conventional state at all, it just immobilizes them like Fei Long's command grab does. I think of it as an identical state to the one you get after a focus attack.
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    I'm guessing you mean the stage 2 of a crumple stun. Makes sense.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Someone gonna make a SSFIV version of this thread? Don't have time to tend it...
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