The SF4 Juggle System:

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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    I guess the first hit Hit's differendly on juggle or on the ground, which might require a 2nd hit. If you look at Seths close s.HP, Sakuras close s.HP and Sakuras close s.HK, they should have 2 hits as well.
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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    ^^Why those attacks?^^


    I've often wondered if attacks have more than the standard attacks. Like for example alot of SRK's have a ground damage & AA damage, these attacks could easily be masked by juggle propperties. Like say if you do a HP SRK with Ryu it's first hit knocks them in to standard knockdown & if it's AA attack (That does different damage) is incapable of juggling from standard knockdown then it just won't hit.

    But that would mean Ryu's HP SRK would have two hits attached to it. Would you be able to varify this Anotak? IF these files alone arn't very big compiledwell would you be able to upload them? I'd love to peruse through these things.

    (Though i have no idea how reading in game files works, i could be asking for something not possible, sorry)
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,398
    ^
    Every collision capable part of a move that is split up into blocks (I think 24 of them, but only the first 11 or 12 are usually relevant). Each block represents the state of your opponent. So you'd have a block for standing, crouching, standing block, crouching block, aerial, counter-hit while standing etc etc etc, and within these blocks are the values for damage, hit animation, sound effects etc.

    Sometimes a move may have multiple parts that can hit, but it's not obvious so because each part has the same or similar effect. An example is Blanka's s.HK (backflip kick). Each active part of this move does the same damage etc, but only the first active part is super-cancellable.

    So when it comes to Ryu's DP, it's very possible that it has descriptors for move than 1 part of the DP. IIRC, in SFIV it's capable of hitting at two stages while he is grounded, and at any stage during the air.
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    i see, thanks for clearing that up for me.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    The moves I mentioned are non-super cancable on high AA hit, They might do different damage as well, at least Seths s.HP does.
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Small Update i guess

    ---

    Seths Ultra is a bit more peculisr than expected.

    Split the move in to 3 segments.

    First hit is JP0

    Second Set is JP0

    Final hit is JP1 (Or more, but doesn't matter)

    the reason this matters is because depending the characteristic of how the first hit hits, the enemy can still be knocked in to JP 1 status. To test this:

    Let the enemy jump over a sonic boom, do ultra when they land, as they're pushed back they're still grounded, so the full combo hits. Now set the opp to jump & hit them with the second hit of his CR.HP & HP Sonic boom -> FADC then Ultra them as they fall. The opponent is in float knockdown so when the Ultra hits they remain in float knockdown (Or air state) when the sonic boom hits themfrom behind they go to JP1 & the whole middle section of the movedoesn't hit.

    This matters because a common strategy with Seth is to throw sonic booms & Ultra the enemy when they jump over it, if you do hit them anti-air you end up with an Ultra that does 3 hits, (With the sonic boom) & is massively weaker.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Found this just now:

    El Fuerte:

    Far s.HK
    1: JP = 0 - CCSK
    2: Can't hit aerial float.

    Video proof:

    Also his close s.HK does standard knockdown, not hard.
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

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  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    rose's ultra's initial hit that starts the cinematic has JP of 0 but all hits during the cinematic have a JP of 127 (7f hex).

    modding it to making reflect fadc ultra work took me less than 5 seconds

    edit: rose's f.rh puts into juggle type 01 ("standard knockdown" but i do not agree with that terminology) when it hits antiair.

    edit: speaking of rose comboing into ultra here's an example... making juggle into soul throw (not pictured in video) was harder but possible too.
  • walnut shrimpwalnut shrimp Joined: Posts: 375
    Chun's first stomp only has a JP of 2.

    If it had a JP of 4, you'd be able to juggle after 4 hits of ex legs if the opponent was standing, but that doesn't work. If you want to connect stomp after ex legs, you have to fadc after the second hit at the latest. I wish she could have sick stomp juggles off ex legs.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Looks like I forgot to tell him to correct that, thanks. Also, he still haven't fixed EX SBK: http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=219594&p=8277489&viewfull=1#post8277489
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Btw, I have no idea what I was smoking when I wrote that stuff about Yoga Mummy before. It doesn't connect after AA ultra.

    Dhalsim:

    Yoga Mummy:
    JP = 1 - CCSK

    Simple as that.

    Also, first hit of EX Yoga fire puts them in float knockdown on counterhit when they are in the air.

    Yoga Fire EX:
    1: JP = 1 - CCSK -CCFK
    2: JP = 1 - CCSK
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

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  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Counterhit only? Wierd
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Yes, very. I was just experimenting a little, and suddenly I air-resetted my opponent with s.HP after a 1-hit EX Yoga Fire, and of course I had to go to the bottom with it. A simple way to try is it testing AA EX YF -> EX Yoga Thrust, with and without CH.
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

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  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    this isn't weird, any hit state can be set by counterhit.

    counterhit is treated completely separately from normal hit, pretty much any property can be changed from normal hit except things like cancelling properties.

    basically you have
    1 - standing hit
    2 - crouch hit
    3 - jumping / juggling / 2nd part of focus crumple hit
    4 - stand block
    5 - crouch block
    6 - ??? unused air block?
    7 - stand counterhit
    8 - crouch counterhit
    9 - jumping counterhit
    10 - ?
    11 - ?
    12 - ?

    basically they can set anything to anything if they wanted to, we're just benefited by them HAPPENING to universally make things do a certain amount extra damage on counterhit for example.

    for example, here i modded rog's jab to cause crumplestate on counterhit:
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    this isn't weird, any hit state can be set by counterhit.

    counterhit is treated completely separately from normal hit, pretty much any property can be changed from normal hit except things like cancelling properties.

    basically you have
    1 - standing hit
    2 - crouch hit
    3 - jumping / juggling / 2nd part of focus crumple hit
    4 - stand block
    5 - crouch block
    6 - ??? unused air block?
    7 - stand counterhit
    8 - crouch counterhit
    9 - jumping counterhit
    10 - ?
    11 - ?
    12 - ?

    basically they can set anything to anything if they wanted to, we're just benefited by them HAPPENING to universally make things do a certain amount extra damage on counterhit for example.

    for example, here i modded rog's jab to cause crumplestate on counterhit:

    I just meant it's weird that they added that, it has no real use. I mean, when do you hit AA CH EX Yoga fire in a real match? And the only thing you can do from it is another EX move for one hit. Or Yoga mummy, but yeah, you need to set that up in advance.

    So now we know 6 moves that works differently on CH:

    lvl.1 FA
    AA lvl.2 FA (They enter that spinning animation like a lvl.3 AA FA)
    Tiger uppercut (Same thing here)
    df.LK with Chun (standard knockdown)
    1st hit of Ken's HP SRK (Float knockdown)
    1st hit of AA CH EX Yoga fire (Float knockdown)

    Does anyone know any other moves?
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    i think they were going to make it a more universally present function like it is on tekken / blazblue etc but then it either got cut (either they thought it's stupid or they ran out of time, or they just forgot about it like how they forgot to make blanka's hitboxes work right because they made him early in development)
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Yeah, that is possible. I wish they kept it so that every counterhit move on someone in the air puts them in standard/float knockdown instead of resetting them though.
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    ^^Seems a bit broken that i mean everyone would be J.LK because a counter hit would mean big combo (or at least a reset attempt of SRK)^^
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    But the combo possibilities!
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • AnotakAnotak mad scientist Joined: Posts: 1,890
    it wouldn't be that broken because antiair counterhits are pretty rare except against sim/seth, and also when people with juggle air2air normals but those juggle anyway
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    I'm working on a video with proof of a lot of stuff that is wrong in the main post. Btw Anotak, do you think you could check the JP for the hits in Dan's Super? I have a theory, I want to know if it is true.

    Dan Super:
    1: JP = 0 - CCSK
    2: JP = 1 - CCSK
    3: JP = 2 - CCSK
    4: JP = 3 - CCSK
    :
    :
    18: JP = 17 - CCSK
    19: JP = Infinite - CCSK - Knock Down (Standard)

    Here's the vid (Still processing atm):
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • MienaikageMienaikage Mitarashi Dango: Data Devourer Joined: Posts: 263


    Just a short and simple Ken video demonstrating how minor differences can have major effects :P
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Yes, the first hit doesn't have FKR, only the 2nd hit.
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Goukens backthrow doesn't cause float knockdown, it appears it hits as if the enemy is standing... So it's not even float knockdown, well, even that doesn't define it... moves will cause reset. howeve it's peculiar.

    first hit of his Tatsu causes float knockdown but not reset, so a second makes standard. However you can do backthrow then Tatsu then Ultra. Which shouldn't work.

    Unless i'm mistaken >_<
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    You mean it hits like they we're simply jumping? i assume you mean because EX palm hits twice.
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • Smileymike101Smileymike101 Joined: Posts: 1,139
    Kich, why don't you update the OP?
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    You mean it hits like they we're simply jumping? i assume you mean because EX palm hits twice.

    Yeah, basically that. (Does Gouken have any moves that act differently on standing/jumping opponent (that do some form of knockdown on both)
    Kich, why don't you update the OP?

    If Kich has done a runner or not keeping track i'll take the responsobility of making an updates SSFIV version of this thread. ^_^ But he still may be around, who knows.
  • MienaikageMienaikage Mitarashi Dango: Data Devourer Joined: Posts: 263
    I'm assuming that because Gouken's back throw doesn't actually hit the opponent it isn't considered a conventional state at all, it just immobilizes them like Fei Long's command grab does. I think of it as an identical state to the one you get after a focus attack.
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    I'm guessing you mean the stage 2 of a crumple stun. Makes sense.
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Someone gonna make a SSFIV version of this thread? Don't have time to tend it...
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    i will be doing one... Uhh, i have to get SSFIV first :P
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,187
    I have some decent data for Juri and Guy. It seems like thy have included a new property though. YOu can't juggle after some moves, even though you should. For example, you can't do 1 hit machinegun upper -> Ultra 2 with DeeJay. DeeJay seems to be plagued by this property a lot.
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • QmangxboxliveQmangxboxlive Joined: Posts: 31
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