The Optical Joystick Discussion

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  • NRXNRX Custom Impact™ Joined: Posts: 511
    One more ASCII optical question: Is it all about using a GT-Y for that authentic FLASH 1 style flava? What does a square gate feel like with this thing?

    I'm curious why both Sanwa and ASCII went with an octogate for their optical sticks. Is finding directions a bitch on a square or something?
    Capcom Logos: http://bit.ly/9J35Wt -- Ryu TE Template: http://bit.ly/c9ajvO -- Capcom Impress HRAP Template: http://bit.ly/aHbfvj -- V3/VX-SA Template: http://bit.ly/cB0eAU -- Fighting Stick V3/VX Template: http://bit.ly/aIlhov
  • Ikagi-chanIkagi-chan Loves his HRAP2SA! <3 Joined: Posts: 1,980
    One more ASCII optical question: Is it all about using a GT-Y for that authentic FLASH 1 style flava? What does a square gate feel like with this thing?

    I'm curious why both Sanwa and ASCII went with an octogate for their optical sticks. Is finding directions a bitch on a square or something?

    Can't say I know the reason why, but Sanwa never explicitly said use an octagonal gate. They just packaged one in for whatever reason. In fact, it's probably better not to use the Sanwa GT-Y octagonal gate. Sanwa's octagonal gate apparently has inaccurate measurements that cause something weird with the throw or something (I don't know specifically what, all I know is that there's an issue). ASCII's octagonal gate does actually address that issue last I heard. But truthfully, you do not need to use an octagonal gate to replicate the Sanwa FLASH 1 experience. There's no documentation I know of that says you HAVE to use the octagonal gate and I'm pretty sure most arcade operators who dropped the cash for one of those joysticks kept the square gate anyway. So it's your call. I'd frankly go the square gate route.
  • NRXNRX Custom Impact™ Joined: Posts: 511
    Excellent infos as usual, thanks! You're probably right about Japanese arcade operators using a square gate on FLASH 1s. I guess I'll go square for this project.
    Capcom Logos: http://bit.ly/9J35Wt -- Ryu TE Template: http://bit.ly/c9ajvO -- Capcom Impress HRAP Template: http://bit.ly/aHbfvj -- V3/VX-SA Template: http://bit.ly/cB0eAU -- Fighting Stick V3/VX Template: http://bit.ly/aIlhov
  • WinchesterWinchester Quick On The Trigger Joined: Posts: 822
    What size nuts are used on the area where the mounting plate and screws tie in together? I need to get the Ascii base to work with the mounting plate for a mod.
  • jdm714jdm714 Blue Blue Glass Moon Joined: Posts: 12,830
    M3 Nuts.
    J&J SoCal Modding: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/113434/
    Visit J&J SoCal Modding's Blog for review of new Arcade Parts: http://jjsocalmodding.blogspot.com
  • mastermindmastermind BACON STRIPS Joined: Posts: 2,846 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Thanks to NRX, I'm now the proud owner of my very own ASCII Answer. :tup:

    Yaay! Time to wade through this thread to get my questions answered.
    -mastermind. NEXT TIME, WE EAT FIGHT STICKS.

    SF2 code: t+ c(+) T-@+ r f(++) g@+ m? s->++ v+ M- n--:-- o+
  • NRXNRX Custom Impact™ Joined: Posts: 511
    Congrats! I hope it parlays into sweet optical goodness in your TE!
    Capcom Logos: http://bit.ly/9J35Wt -- Ryu TE Template: http://bit.ly/c9ajvO -- Capcom Impress HRAP Template: http://bit.ly/aHbfvj -- V3/VX-SA Template: http://bit.ly/cB0eAU -- Fighting Stick V3/VX Template: http://bit.ly/aIlhov
  • W00P MstR FresHW00P MstR FresH Making stuff is fun Joined: Posts: 824
    My ascii feels, for lack of a better word, MUSHY. It seems to return to center slowly. I have a jlf spring with an added random spring in there now. I want it to SNAP back to center.

    any suggestions fellas? I have even tried a stiffer spring set up than the one in there now.

    Maybe i have it too stiff and its hampering its return to center
  • cause_of_chaoscause_of_chaos Joined: Posts: 11
    ASCII FT Special

    Hi all,

    I'm surprised as to how popular the optical stick has become! My first stick ever was the Dreamcast ASCII FT stick (black/white/yellow), and I loved it. I remember using a PS2 stick with micro-switches and thinking it was broken...

    You guys have re-kindled my love for that stick so I'm gonna refurbish mine. The DC wire is no good (keeps cutting out when I bend it), and the buttons are well worn. Maybe I'll post some pics once I finish repairing it!

    cause_of_chaos
  • XMetalXMetal Just Be Madness Joined: Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    HAD TO BRING THIS THREAD BACK! TOODLES HAS A LEGIT REPLACEMENT FOR THE FLASH!!! OPTICALS FOR EVERYONE! GOD BLESS YOU TOODLES!

    the sanwa flash was on it's way to pretty much complete death until toodles put it upon himself to make sure that did'nt happen! no more having to scour japanese auction sites and paying out your ass for what i believe to be a far superior directional input system to the switch! LONG LIVE OPTICALS! THANK GOD! AND THANK YOU AGAIN TOODLES!
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    Opticals por vida! Viva toodles!
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • julius blazejulius blaze is really airthrow Joined: Posts: 596
    I have two p360s, they don't say happ or wico on the bottom. Just 360, patented, +5 and UDLR on the bottom. I would like to sell these as wicos, but how sure can I be? My other p360s say Happ. I have reason to believe they're wicos because I bought them from an Arcade Operator who had them for years, so im sure they're quite old, thus more likely wicos, right?

    If anyone is interested just lemme know.
    Everyone who likes real arcade ST, go join the dontblowthis.com forums!
  • julius blazejulius blaze is really airthrow Joined: Posts: 596
    I have two p360s, they don't say happ or wico on the bottom. Just 360, patented, +5 and UDLR on the bottom. I would like to sell these as wicos, but how sure can I be? My other p360s say Happ. I have reason to believe they're wicos because I bought them from an Arcade Operator who had them for years, so im sure they're quite old, thus more likely wicos, right?

    If anyone is interested just lemme know.
    Everyone who likes real arcade ST, go join the dontblowthis.com forums!
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    Is the big black plastic housing round-ish or square-ish?
    Round-Happ
    Square-Wico

    The Wicos should also have a stick on the bottom saying so.
  • KazujiroKazujiro PSN ID: Kazujiro XBLive: Kazujiro SRK Joined: Posts: 1,631
    My new Sanwa Flash 1 was delivered while I was at work today. I drove home on lunch and quickly installed it into my TE. I only had 2 minutes to test it before I had to go back to work!

    Spent about 3 hours with it tonight playing SSF4 with some local players. I had to relearn the JLF a bit, but once I got used to it I was having so much fun! My friend said it should be illegal to use one since its so silent.

    I can't say if I'll miss the CLACK, CLACK, CLACK, CLACK!! Sounds just yet - I do know that I won't be loaning my stick for anybody to use from now on!
  • kikimaru024kikimaru024 Mid-tier scrub Joined: Posts: 1,693
    My ascii feels, for lack of a better word, MUSHY. It seems to return to center slowly. I have a jlf spring with an added random spring in there now. I want it to SNAP back to center.

    any suggestions fellas? I have even tried a stiffer spring set up than the one in there now.

    Maybe i have it too stiff and its hampering its return to center
    I would suggest you take it apart, clean it thoroughly, then lubricate the pivot (or possibly even replace it).

    I found best results on JLF-types with LS-32 or JLF+LS-32 springs.

    *edit*
    oops -- just saw the original post date :confused:
    Seimitsu & K-sticks > Sanwa JLF.
    This truth is not universally acknowledged.
  • TimstuffTimstuff Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool Joined: Posts: 434
    I'm curious about opticals. My biggest problems with iL Competitions are the twisting articulator, and how they bounce around. On the other hand, I'm leery of the JLF, since there's no way to get equal response for diagonals while having equal throw.

    The Perfect 360 apparently has some junky parts. You need a custom articulator, otherwise you get the "crunch" that P360's are notorious for. Kowal was better ones, but I'm not sure if he still makes them.

    indexphpactiondlattacht.th.gif

    The pivot cone is also crap because it's too small, and causes friction.

    indexphpactiondlattacht.th.gif

    The cone can be improved with tape, but only a custom one will truly fix it. I'd like to find out if anyone still makes mod kits for P360s, or if they'd consider making more. The OEM spring is also too heavy and causes unwanted bounciness, so that needs replacing too.

    The Ultrastick 360 sounds like it's probably the best of east and west as far as feel and responsiveness go since it's highly customizable. I haven't tried either stick, so I'm not sure what my best option would be, of if I'm ready to give up the "click" feedback that microswitches give. Does the silence help or hurt gameplay? Also, has anyone here tried the Ultrastick 360? How does it compare to an actual Sanwa stick?
  • Ikagi-chanIkagi-chan Loves his HRAP2SA! <3 Joined: Posts: 1,980
    The Ultrastick 360 sounds like it's probably the best of east and west as far as feel and responsiveness go since it's highly customizable. I haven't tried either stick, so I'm not sure what my best option would be, of if I'm ready to give up the "click" feedback that microswitches give. Does the silence help or hurt gameplay? Also, has anyone here tried the Ultrastick 360? How does it compare to an actual Sanwa stick?

    By chance is this the joystick you're referring to? I can't say I've ever used it, but it looks like it would be an absolute pain to get working in an arcade stick.

    I don't want to delve into the whole Eastern vs. Western design for joysticks since that's entirely preference; use whichever joystick style you prefer.

    On the topic of microswitch click though, I haven't found it to hurt my game. I mean, I can definitely tell when going between optical and microswitch sticks that there's a difference in performance, but it's actually not as huge as you'd think. I personally can transit very quickly to playing on a regular JLF if I'm given a game or two. I do personally think optical joysticks are better though.
  • TimstuffTimstuff Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool Joined: Posts: 434
    By chance is this the joystick you're referring to? I can't say I've ever used it, but it looks like it would be an absolute pain to get working in an arcade stick.

    I don't want to delve into the whole Eastern vs. Western design for joysticks since that's entirely preference; use whichever joystick style you prefer.

    On the topic of microswitch click though, I haven't found it to hurt my game. I mean, I can definitely tell when going between optical and microswitch sticks that there's a difference in performance, but it's actually not as huge as you'd think. I personally can transit very quickly to playing on a regular JLF if I'm given a game or two. I do personally think optical joysticks are better though.
    That is the stick I am talking about, however it is apparently very easy to set up in an arcade stick. It has a USB port on it, but it also has wire terminals. You can either wire buttons to the terminals and use the stick's PCB to play directly on a PC, or hook up the wires to another PCB and send the signals just like a regular joystick. The USB port can be used to program different profiles for different types of games, like switching from 8 way to 4 way mode and having the smallest deadzone between directions possible, or simply adjusting the deadzone in the center of the stick.

    I am guessing the stick gets similar performance to a Sanwa flash (it is a Sanwa-made stick with a custom PCB), however my friend expressed concern that the magnet could wear out over time. I have no idea what the half-life on a magnet is though, so I am not sure if by the time this becomes a problem I'd be looking for a new joystick anyway.
  • Ikagi-chanIkagi-chan Loves his HRAP2SA! <3 Joined: Posts: 1,980
    That is the stick I am talking about, however it is apparently very easy to set up in an arcade stick. It has a USB port on it, but it also has wire terminals. You can either wire buttons to the terminals and use the stick's PCB to play directly on a PC, or hook up the wires to another PCB and send the signals just like a regular joystick. The USB port can be used to program different profiles for different types of games, like switching from 8 way to 4 way mode and having the smallest deadzone between directions possible, or simply adjusting the deadzone in the center of the stick.

    I am guessing the stick gets similar performance to a Sanwa flash (it is a Sanwa-made stick with a custom PCB), however my friend expressed concern that the magnet could wear out over time. I have no idea what the half-life on a magnet is though, so I am not sure if by the time this becomes a problem I'd be looking for a new joystick anyway.

    Hmmm...That's pretty neat I won't lie. I didn't actually know about all this stuff until you told me! :rofl:

    I just took a gander at some information about the stick. It would seem like the sensors work similarly to the SUZO Inductive joysticks where it uses magnetic fields to sense directions. If so, you're certainly not going to have to worry about it dying that fast. The SUZO Inductive was made quite a while ago and a lot of them are still kicking around. All things considered, I'm fairly surprised at how cheap the Ultra Stik 360 is. That would certainly be an interesting project to pick up. Now the only problem is finding a case deep enough to mount it, though it looks like most cases that can fit American-style parts can fit this too.
  • CUTWESTCUTWEST There is no rivalry. =( Joined: Posts: 1,770
    sorry for bumping an old thread but i too would like some more info on the Ultrastik 360. Like, for example. Does it work on Consoles?
  • TimstuffTimstuff Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool Joined: Posts: 434
    sorry for bumping an old thread but i too would like some more info on the Ultrastik 360. Like, for example. Does it work on Consoles?
    I'm not quite an expert on the subject since I have not used one, but yes, it will work on console fightsticks.
  • CUTWESTCUTWEST There is no rivalry. =( Joined: Posts: 1,770
    fuck it, i went ahead and ordered the Ultrastik 360 and all of its accessories that go with it. Ill give it a full test thru and review for all those curious about the stick sometime next week.
  • Ikagi-chanIkagi-chan Loves his HRAP2SA! <3 Joined: Posts: 1,980
    fuck it, i went ahead and ordered the Ultrastik 360 and all of its accessories that go with it. Ill give it a full test thru and review for all those curious about the stick sometime next week.

    CUTWEST, be sure to post up and let us all know how it is! I'm actually very curious how it is since it looks like it's a fairly easy mount for most joysticks. But, that may just me sucking at measuring things visually. Best of luck to your quest my friend!
  • CUTWESTCUTWEST There is no rivalry. =( Joined: Posts: 1,770
    Just got my Ultrastik 360 in the mail today.

    100_0320.jpg
    And first things first. Yes, this stick does work on consoles. Well, i should say really that this stick works on the PS3 Since i dont have an xbox 360 to test it on at the moment so im not sure if it works on that system or not. But i can confirm 100% that this stick does work on the PS3.

    As for the feel of this stick it feels really smooth. This stick is modeled after the JLF so it shares a lot of its characteristics as well as some parts being compatible with one another. The analog controls on this thing are godlike. VERY precise (as it should be) and accurate.

    and as far as measurements and mounting goes, If you can mount and JFL or a Happ/IL Comp you can mount this stick. This stick is about the same size as a happ\iL comp so again, If you can mount that stick into your case you shouldn't have any problems with this one.

    everything else about this stick that i want to say has already been said here:
    http://retroblast.arcadecontrols.com/reviews/Ultimarc_Ultrastick_0925006-01.html

    And here is the website where i purchased this stick and all of its accesories.
    http://www.arcadeemulator.net/

    If anyone has any questions what so ever about the stick please let me know.
    peace.
  • TimstuffTimstuff Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool Joined: Posts: 434
    Nice to hear a review from an SRK member! Sounds like a good stick overall if it's within your budget.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,368 mod
    Unless it has an MS security chip, it wont work on the 360.

    The next thing that needs to be done off course is a comparison test with a Sanwa flash.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • TimstuffTimstuff Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool Joined: Posts: 434
    The analog part won't work on a 360, but you can still wire it to a PCB just like any other joystick and use it in the 8-way or 4-way modes.
  • Saturn2888Saturn2888 Joined: Posts: 13
    The analog part won't work on a 360, but you can still wire it to a PCB just like any other joystick and use it in the 8-way or 4-way modes.
    Is there any PCB that supports analog motions from this? I mean, wouldn't it be possible to use it in analog mode on a console too?
  • underwingunderwing Modder Joined: Posts: 500
    Is there any PCB that supports analog motions from this? I mean, wouldn't it be possible to use it in analog mode on a console too?
    Is there any sort of analog output from the Ultrastik? If not, then no, not really.

    From what I can tell (cursory glance at the product info page), it can only output analogue data over USB -- the auxiliary pins used to hook it up as a 4/8-way stick are digital only outputs. So in order to get the analog sensor data out of the stick, you'd have to A) tap into the stick's PCB, bypassing the USB chip they use to get to the sensor data directly (or maybe there's a secondary ADC chip that's in there, and you could tap the communication bus), or B) make a USB host (or OTG) device that can read it as a computer would. This second method would likely introduce some latency to the readings, just because of the conversions and such.

    Once you have that data, you need to feed the analogue signals to a 360 controller PCB (basically, output two appropriate voltages within the analogue stick's X/Y ranges). The whole thing's a bit of a headache, quite frankly.
  • Ikagi-chanIkagi-chan Loves his HRAP2SA! <3 Joined: Posts: 1,980
    Once you have that data, you need to feed the analogue signals to a 360 controller PCB (basically, output two appropriate voltages within the analogue stick's X/Y ranges). The whole thing's a bit of a headache, quite frankly.

    At that point, it may just be easier to find and use a Seimitsu LS-64. It's pricey, but I can only assume it's easier to work with since I believe you can tap into the analog output directly. Of course, I have yet to see any documentation on how the thing actually works. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt anyone here on SRK's done something with it (maybe jdm714?). That thing is mighty expensive and HUGE.
  • Saturn2888Saturn2888 Joined: Posts: 13
    I agree, looks like a lot of work.

    Can you chain more than one of the U360s together?

    What of the LS-64? Another analog stick, but then you'd have to use a 360 or PS3 PCB I'm assuming correct? No way to do analog with boards like the Chutulu I'm assuming.
  • Ikagi-chanIkagi-chan Loves his HRAP2SA! <3 Joined: Posts: 1,980
    I agree, looks like a lot of work.

    Can you chain more than one of the U360s together?

    What of the LS-64? Another analog stick, but then you'd have to use a 360 or PS3 PCB I'm assuming correct? No way to do analog with boards like the Chutulu I'm assuming.

    While the the Cthulhu can send analog data, it does not directly accept analog input, only digital. You can probably install an LS-64 with the use of an X360 or a PS3 PCB, but you'll need some hefty batteries if you're going to do that. You can't power the LS-64 off of the X360 or PS3 PCB's power alone. According to the spec sheet from AkihabaraShop, the thing requires +10V (!). That's quite a lot; I don't think any joystick of practical size would be able to use one of these things.

    As for the U360, I can't answer that; CUTWEST is the guy you want to talk to about those.
  • Saturn2888Saturn2888 Joined: Posts: 13
    That's a lot of volts! Clearly it's not designed to be used in consoles or over USB :P. How many milliamps is it pulling though?
  • Ikagi-chanIkagi-chan Loves his HRAP2SA! <3 Joined: Posts: 1,980
    You got me. I don't even know if that information sheet says anything about them. But if you're interested, you can check it out at akihabarashop.jp.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    I havent used one, so I could be entirely off base, but that LS-64 looks like a joystick hooked up to X/Y potentiometers just like a pad. There's no reason I can you couldn't reasily remove the analog stick from a pad and swap it in. The 10v is likely a maximum voltage it can safely handle, but Im bet most cabinets run them at 5v or less.
  • underwingunderwing Modder Joined: Posts: 500
    I havent used one, so I could be entirely off base, but that LS-64 looks like a joystick hooked up to X/Y potentiometers just like a pad. There's no reason I can you couldn't reasily remove the analog stick from a pad and swap it in. The 10v is likely a maximum voltage it can safely handle, but Im bet most cabinets run them at 5v or less.
    Exactly. Couple pots just need a reference voltage (conveniently provided for you by that third pin on the built in potentiometers' footprints that everyone always ignores) and you SHOULD be good. It looks like it comes pre-wired in a specific (kinda strange) fashion, with the two pots linked together somehow or something (just looking at some Japanese datasheet, so I'm taking guesses), but the picture makes it look like it should be easy to tap into the terminals of the pot itself. It does list a draw of .1W @ 10V, which I think is just them being lazy and only using one digit of precision for the wattage.
  • kowalkowal smell like Sanwa Joined: Posts: 400
    U360 is amazing
    you can adjust all
    diagonal, engage, change direction on every cell.
    and funny thing - previous diagonals before straight direction - impossible on normal stick

    I use inductive hub on JLW (JP ver.) stick have shorter throw and better dynamic than j-stick (JLW ver. US/Euro)


    U360 theoretically work only on PC
    but run on PS3 with some problems
    U360 must be programmed on digital mode!!!
    defult is analog mode, run this stick on PC and use Ultra 8way digital map (without sticky cell, never use sticki cell - breaks many move)

    U360 have only 8 buttons X, O, square, triangle, L1, L2, R1, R2
    but 8 button work how shift you get next 9,10,11,12,13,14,15
    and...
    shift+X=start
    shift+square= select
    no home button :/

    on game you can't use 8buttons if you need start and select but it is not a big problem
    for 65$ you get very good (or better) alternative optical stick with interface
    graphic1uj.png

    and still work on output mode how normal inductive/optical stick, use Cthulhu and +5V.
    output mode support is only digital!
    all work fine!
    http://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_inst.html
    Luftwaffe use only Suzo
  • phaedrusphaedrus Joined: Posts: 818
    thanks Cutwest and Kowal, i wondered if it worked on ps3 but did not have the funds to blindly jump.
    7 button is trap.
  • Saturn2888Saturn2888 Joined: Posts: 13
    Thanks guys! That's really helpful to see all the information there :).
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