Ways of thinking, read if you a noobie

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  • MixahMixah Joined: Posts: 8,130
    No, i'm just saying sometimes in SF the skills are alot easier to miss than in Marvel.
    Example: Years ago before we left out for ECC one year we were all at the arcade practicing and Julian ran like a 20-30 something game win streak using Gief someone else and Eagle who he had just started playing. As far as Easily visible play he wasn't doing anything special, he was literally using 3 like 4 normals and grabs and he was TRASHING people. A-groove players, K, C, Sagats, Blankas, Bisons. The average person was losing two characters to his R1 Eagle and we had all been practicing for ECC for a while before this day. It wasn't quick noticable beatings, it was like minute long perfects. with practically no supers and damage coming mostly one hit at a time. If anyone who just started played SF was watching they would have thought we were all trash, and probably been bored to death, but in reality Julian's poking and spacing was just that good.
    Marvel requires that you put some damage into each opportunity so you can't really win on pokes like you can in SF.


    Maybe it's a person-to-person interpretation then, because quite honestly, I feel the same as when I play Yipes in MvC2 as I do when I play Afro in ST or Justin in 3S. I just feel they're better players than me. When I first started fighters and I'd lose in A3 or Tekken Tag, I knew that they were better players, regardless of how I lost. Shit, I played a bunch of games at Evo 2k7 with various people and some guy beat me in ST with DJ's jumping jab... that's it (Maybe a mk somewhere too)... and my thoughts - Shit, he knows how to use that jab well. I used to play MvC2 and lose to Sentinel, flying back and hitting HP all day... Once again, a single move.

    It's just that MvC2 is a different kind of game, it doesn't change the fact that if a player is better than you, they just are. I suppose a newbie could understand why they lost more easily in MvC2, but in the end, your opponent was just better than you.
    Beat... That's all.
  • TannerTanner Joined: Posts: 1,691
    Maybe it's a person-to-person interpretation then, because quite honestly, I feel the same as when I play Yipes in MvC2 as I do when I play Afro in ST or Justin in 3S. I just feel they're better players than me. When I first started fighters and I'd lose in A3 or Tekken Tag, I knew that they were better players, regardless of how I lost. Shit, I played a bunch of games at Evo 2k7 with various people and some guy beat me in ST with DJ's jumping jab... that's it (Maybe a mk somewhere too)... and my thoughts - Shit, he knows how to use that jab well. I used to play MvC2 and lose to Sentinel, flying back and hitting HP all day... Once again, a single move.

    It's just that MvC2 is a different kind of game, it doesn't change the fact that if a player is better than you, they just are. I suppose a newbie could understand why they lost more easily in MvC2, but in the end, your opponent was just better than you.

    I think you way misunderstand his point. He's talking about from a complete newbie view point. When you beat some scrub with basic tactics in ST they think you just got lucky. They don't understand all the set ups, traps, spacing and proper poking you used. But you kick their ass at marvel they see flashy combos and supers and are all amazed. Of course you understand the skills required to play ST because you've been around and actually played and learned from good players, but he's talking about from a scrub point of view..
    League of Legends IGN: Logios
  • MixahMixah Joined: Posts: 8,130
    I guess. Either way you still don't know exactly what you lost to, and that's coming from a newbie's perspective. Whether you lost to Ken's C.mp in 3S or Magneto sticking his tri jumps in your ass. You can just assume in MvC2 that you lost to this or that, but most of the time they're wrong. Players don't lose to Magneto's Rushdown, they lose to Magneto's priority and lack of blocking skills (even in high levels). Essentially in the 3S Ken situation, you lose to Ken's c.mp's priority and your lack of blocking skills.

    The way you can justify that the rushdown itself doesn't win you the fight is that there have been many times where an opponent's blocking is so on point, they block everything. It's the priority and the mind-over that wins you the fight. You mind fuck your opponent using the character's tools. Tri jumps don't win shit. They're just a tool.
    Beat... That's all.
  • FAI_CWFAI_CW Secretly a Twelve main Joined: Posts: 132
    Nice read.
    I definitely have to learn how to actively think about what I'm doing during matches. I either auto-pilot, or can't think quickly enough about a solution mid game.
    I hope that this comes with experience. I havn't been playing for long, only a couple of months.
  • RagingStormXRagingStormX Team Arcade Stream Joined: Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Comes with time and playing better players. I used to auto pilot way back when as well.
  • GreenwoodGreenwood Earth, the only true God Joined: Posts: 888
    edited January 2016
    @RagingStormX Great read, but referring to the last 2 recent posts; do you think new players should be trying to implement these advanced strategies and thought processes as soon as possible or focus on other fundamentals like anti-airing, developing a ground game, blocking, etc. ?

    I ask because of what FAI_CW said - "can't think quickly enough about a solution mid game.". I have the same problems. When my brain is focused on things like "he's close enough to jump so I gotta be ready to AA" and "I just got knocked down, holy shit wtf is he going to do next", thinking about things like mind games or doing things in the sonichurricane link seems like astrophysics.

    Do you think a player should focus solely on fundamentals and get beat down until the reach the point where fundamentals become second nature and THEN work on developing things like advanced footsies and mind games?

    OR

    Start thinking about the advanced stuff as soon as possible, even if 90% of your brain power is focused on AAing a jump in or landing a punish combo? Would that payoff twice as much in the long run (even if the beat downs last twice as long) or are we stunting the development of fundamentals if we dive into the deep end too soon?
    Injustice 2 - Wonder Woman, Joker
    Boring, stale, predictable FGs - Cammy, Kuma, whatever yawn zzzzz
  • RagingStormXRagingStormX Team Arcade Stream Joined: Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    You always want to start at the basics, but sooner or later you have to challenge get yourself to the advance stuff. Advanced things won't be useful if you don't have the fundamentals.
  • RocketUppercutRocketUppercut "You have no dignity." Joined: Posts: 628
    I think now more than ever with the addition of SFV is this post relevant. I hope the '16ers get a look at your post.
    "Rocket Uppercut!! It strikes the heavens in unequaled glory!"
  • 6ix6ix Joined: Posts: 27
    I'm pretty much an SF newbie. Only played for a few months on and off.

    Back when I played SSF4/USF4 I did a lot of autopilot nonsense and didn't realize the importance of adapting. Not to mention doing moves with some sort of reason.

    Also I really like the bit you mentioned on training mode. I'm guilty of just going in to learn combos, but becoming more familiar with situations would help me react to them better in matches.

    This post was a great read though. The info will be helpful to us new players jumping into SFV.
  • RagingStormXRagingStormX Team Arcade Stream Joined: Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    That's the main reason for the bump. When this was on the front page of srk years ago, a lot of people said it really helped.
  • GamingPunkJimGamingPunkJim Joined: Posts: 42
    Oh fantastic! I never thought of Street Fighter as if it was Action Chess.
  • petran79petran79 Here comes an old challenger Joined: Posts: 1,913
    I'm not gonna get any better at A2/ST/SF4 by playing people I beat down. They won't get better either. Play better people, but ask questions and watch what they are doing.

    I do not think that is always the case. In GGPO where you play mostly 10+ matches against the same person, sometimes the journey is more interesting than the goal.
    Even if you win 20-0, some interesting, funny and spectacular things might happen in the few rounds you might lose.
    too slow!
  • RagingStormXRagingStormX Team Arcade Stream Joined: Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    petran79 wrote: »
    I'm not gonna get any better at A2/ST/SF4 by playing people I beat down. They won't get better either. Play better people, but ask questions and watch what they are doing.

    I do not think that is always the case. In GGPO where you play mostly 10+ matches against the same person, sometimes the journey is more interesting than the goal.
    Even if you win 20-0, some interesting, funny and spectacular things might happen in the few rounds you might lose.

    I mean in the case where you are blatantly outclassed, if you are new to MvC2 and go play Justin Wong in his prime you aren't going to learn anything.
  • FAI_CWFAI_CW Secretly a Twelve main Joined: Posts: 132
    petran79 wrote: »
    I'm not gonna get any better at A2/ST/SF4 by playing people I beat down. They won't get better either. Play better people, but ask questions and watch what they are doing.

    I do not think that is always the case. In GGPO where you play mostly 10+ matches against the same person, sometimes the journey is more interesting than the goal.
    Even if you win 20-0, some interesting, funny and spectacular things might happen in the few rounds you might lose.

    I mean in the case where you are blatantly outclassed, if you are new to MvC2 and go play Justin Wong in his prime you aren't going to learn anything.

    Yea, I played an Akuma recently that just completely destroyed me.
    I don't have the match recorded either, so I don't know what to take from said match.
    All I remember is that the Demon Flip mixup got me hard and his hit confirms were on point.
  • DANZANDANZAN Allow you to LIVE. Joined: Posts: 6,690
    edited January 2016
    The way you handle losses is what ultimately will decide how good you become as a competetive SF player.

  • RagingStormXRagingStormX Team Arcade Stream Joined: Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    ExposedD wrote: »
    The way you handle losses is what ultimately will decide how good you become as a competetive SF player.

    That's true, but you still need to understand why you lost also.
  • CEE330CEE330 Joined: Posts: 10
    Good read, i this should possibly be a sticky as it's helped me and many others reflect on the approach to matches
    SFV Fighter ID = Cee330
  • RagingStormXRagingStormX Team Arcade Stream Joined: Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Glad you like it and I hope it helps
  • KunikuKuniku Joined: Posts: 351
    Something I've been pondering on recently is how to "train" myself to think during matches, my execution isn't bad - I play to my level as it were. I'm told I have a reasonable footsie game, and against similar level players I hold my own. But what I've realised playing some of the slightly (and much) better players at my local, is that I don't "think" during matches. I can watch other people play, or watch YouTube videos, and spot that someone is becoming predictable, that they always DP after such and such or whatever. But I never think like that in my matches, I just kind of react to what they do - which in turn makes me more predictable opening me up for nasty reads.

    But I've no idea how to go from being able to spot those trends in videos, to being able to do it while playing. I'm not a new player, I've been playing for years, but its only really just dawned on me what is stopping me from progressing. Everyone calls it chess or as in this post action chess. And says that it is all about the mind games etc. But I think I play with my brain turned off xD
  • CaptainBlackCaptainBlack Joined: Posts: 15
    bump before it's cached.

    Thanks again RagingStormX!
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