Consensus matchup chart

TheloThelo Holdin' down-backJoined: Posts: 1,144 mod
Here is a matchup chart I made to try to aggregate the matchup rating opinions of most players, with strong players getting more weight in their opinion. The numbers come from all over this forum, and from personal discussions with other players. I try to keep it updated as I get new opinions.

Each A-B matchup rating means the average number of games that a strong player of character A would win against an equally skilled player of character B, in a hypothetical series of 10 games. For instance, if Ryu has a rating of 7 against E. Honda, that means that the Ryu player would win 7 games out of 10, on average (so Ryu has advantage over E. Honda).

Feel free to comment and offer corrections to the chart.

Last updated 2010-02-05:
Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
Ryu     -   6   7.5 6   6   6   5.5 4   6   7   6   6.5 4.5 4   4.5 5.5    85
Ken     4   -   7.5 5.5 6   6   4.5 4   7   6.5 6   5   4   4   4.5 6      80.5
E.Honda 2.5 2.5 -   4.5 6   7.5 4   5.5 7.5 7   6.5 3.5 5   6   4.5 5.5    78
Chun Li 4   4.5 5.5 -   5.5 6   5   6   4.5 5.5 3.5 5   4.5 4.5 4.5 5.5    74
Blanka  4   4   4   4.5 -   7   6.5 5   6.5 5   4   3   3   4   4.5 5      70
Zangief 4   4   2.5 4   3   -   3.5 4.5 5   4   4.5 3.5 6   4   3   5.5    61
Guile   4.5 5.5 6   5   3.5 6.5 -   3.5 6.5 7   5   5.5 3   3.5 5   4.5    74.5
Dhalsim 6   6   4.5 4   5   5.5 6.5 -   4   3.5 6.5 6   5   4   7   4.5    78
T.Hawk  4   3   2.5 5.5 3.5 5   3.5 6   -   3   4   3.5 4   3   4   4      58.5
Cammy   3   3.5 3   4.5 5   6   3   6.5 7   -   5   4   5.5 5   4   4      69
Fei Long4   4   3.5 6.5 6   5.5 5   3.5 6   5   -   3   3.5 3.5 5.5 4.5    69
Dee Jay 3.5 5   6.5 5   7   6.5 4.5 4   6.5 6   7   -   4   4.5 5   6      81
Balrog  5.5 6   5   5.5 7   4   7   5   6   4.5 6.5 6   -   5.5 6   5.5    85
Vega    6   6   4   5.5 6   6   6.5 6   7   5   6.5 5.5 4.5 -   5.5 4      84
Sagat   5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 7   5   3   6   6   4.5 5   4   4.5 -   5      77.5
M.Bison 4.5 4   4.5 4.5 5   4.5 5.5 5.5 6   6   5.5 4   4.5 6   5   -      75



Sorted by total points:
Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
Ryu     -   6   7.5 6   6   6   5.5 4   6   7   6   6.5 4.5 4   4.5 5.5    85
Balrog  5.5 6   5   5.5 7   4   7   5   6   4.5 6.5 6   -   5.5 6   5.5    85
Vega    6   6   4   5.5 6   6   6.5 6   7   5   6.5 5.5 4.5 -   5.5 4      84
Dee Jay 3.5 5   6.5 5   7   6.5 4.5 4   6.5 6   7   -   4   4.5 5   6      81
Ken     4   -   7.5 5.5 6   6   4.5 4   7   6.5 6   5   4   4   4.5 6      80.5
E.Honda 2.5 2.5 -   4.5 6   7.5 4   5.5 7.5 7   6.5 3.5 5   6   4.5 5.5    78
Dhalsim 6   6   4.5 4   5   5.5 6.5 -   4   3.5 6.5 6   5   4   7   4.5    78
Sagat   5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.5 7   5   3   6   6   4.5 5   4   4.5 -   5      77.5
M.Bison 4.5 4   4.5 4.5 5   4.5 5.5 5.5 6   6   5.5 4   4.5 6   5   -      75
Guile   4.5 5.5 6   5   3.5 6.5 -   3.5 6.5 7   5   5.5 3   3.5 5   4.5    74.5
Chun Li 4   4.5 5.5 -   5.5 6   5   6   4.5 5.5 3.5 5   4.5 4.5 4.5 5.5    74
Blanka  4   4   4   4.5 -   7   6.5 5   6.5 5   4   3   3   4   4.5 5      70
Cammy   3   3.5 3   4.5 5   6   3   6.5 7   -   5   4   5.5 5   4   4      69
Fei Long4   4   3.5 6.5 6   5.5 5   3.5 6   5   -   3   3.5 3.5 5.5 4.5    69
Zangief 4   4   2.5 4   3   -   3.5 4.5 5   4   4.5 3.5 6   4   3   5.5    61
T.Hawk  4   3   2.5 5.5 3.5 5   3.5 6   -   3   4   3.5 4   3   4   4      58.5
Balrog v Chun
Orig chart (skankin garbage): 5-5
MiloDC: 6-4
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 5.5-4.5


Balrog v Fei
Orig chart: 6.5-3.5
Aqua Snake: 6.5-3.5
Jumpsuit: 7-3
# Keep 6.5-3.5 for now


Balrog v Guile
Orig chart: 4-6
Battosai: 3-7
IrrepressibleGuile: 3-7
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 3-7


Balrog v Ken
Orig chart (damdai): 6-4
1hitparry: 5-5 or 4.5-5.5
# 2010-02-05 rating: 5.5-4.5
Zero1_: 6-4
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 6-4


Balrog v Blanka
Orig chart: 6-4
Empirion: 7-3
# 2010-02-02 rating: 6.5-3.5
BlueTallCans: 8-2
Decoy: 7-3
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 7-3


Balrog v Sagat
Orig chart: 6-4
orochizoolander: 6.5-3.5
# Stay at 6-4 for now


Blanka v Cammy
Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
Empirion: 4-6
Noriega: 6-4 (unsure)
BlueTallCans: 4.5-5.5
Decoy: 5.5-4.5
MiloDC: 3.5-6.5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 5-5


Blanka v Chun
Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
Empirion: 4-6
# 2010-02-02 rating: Stay at 4.5-5.5 for now
skankin garbage: 4-6
BlueTallCans: 4.5-5.5
Decoy: 4.5-5.5
MiloDC: 6-4
# 2010-02-05 rating: Stay at 4.5-5.5


Blanka v Deejay
Orig chart (BruceLB): 4-6
Empirion: 3-7
BlueTallCans: 3-7
Decoy: 3-7
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 3-7



Blanka v Dhalsim
Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
Empirion: 4-6
# 2010-02-02 rating: 5-5
BlueTallCans: 5-5
Decoy: 5-5
# Keep 5-5


Blanka v Fei
Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
Empirion: 4-6
Aqua Snake: 4-6
# New rating: 4-6
BlueTallCans: 4-6
Decoy: 4.5-5.5
Jumpsuit: 4.5-5.5
# Keep 4-6


Blanka v Guile
Orig chart: 6.5-3.5
BlueTallCans: 5-5 (!)
Decoy: 6.5-3.5
IrrepressibleGuile: 6-4
# Keep 6.5-3.5


Blanka v Honda
Orig chart (Thelo, EA Megaman, Kuroppi): 4-6
BlueTallCans: 4-6
Decoy: 4.5-5.5
# Keep 4-6


Blanka v Ken
Orig chart: 4-6
BlueTallCans: 4-6
Empirion: 4-6 (?)
Decoy: 4.5-5.5
# Keep 4-6


Blanka v M.Bison
Orig chart: 5-5
Empirion: 5-5 (?)
BlueTallCans: 5-5
Decoy: 6-4
# Keep 5-5 for now


Blanka v Sagat
Orig chart: 5-5
Empirion: 4-6
# Stay at 5-5 for now
BlueTallCans: 4-6
Decoy: 5-5
orochizoolander: 4.5-5.5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 4.5-5.5



Blanka v Ryu
Orig chart: 4-6
Empirion: 4-6 (?)
BlueTallCans: 3-7
Decoy: 4-6
SteveTren: 4-6
# Keep 4-6




Blanka v T.Hawk
Orig chart (JigglyNorris?): 6.5-3.5
Kuroppi: 7-3
BlueTallCans: 6.5-3.5
Decoy: 7-3
# 2010-02-05 rating: Keep 6.5-3.5


Blanka v Vega
Orig chart: 4-6
BlueTallCans: 4-6
Decoy: 3.5-6.5
# Keep 4-6


Blanka v Zangief
Orig chart: 7-3
BlueTallCans: 7-3
Decoy: 7-3
# Keep 7-3


Cammy v Chun
Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
Norieaga: 4.5-5.5
MiloDC: 3.5-6.5


Cammy v Deejay
Orig chart: 4-6
Norieaga: 4-6
MiloDC: 2-8 (!)
# Keep 4-6 for now


Cammy v Dhalsim
Orig chart: 6-4
Norieaga: 6-4
MiloDC: 7.5-2.5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 6.5-3.5


Cammy v Fei
Orig chart (detailed below): 5.5-4.5
-Norieaga (old): 6-4
-Aqua Snake: 5.5-4.5
-Eventhubs guy: 5-5
-Sirlin: "About even"
Norieaga (new rating): 8-2 or 7.5-2.5
Aqua Snake (same rating): 5.5-4.5
# 2010-02-02 rating: 6-4
MiloDC: 4.5-5.5
Jumpsuit: 4-6
# 2010-02-05 rating: 5-5


Cammy v Guile
Orig chart: 3-7
Silver Rain 007: 3.5-6.5
Noriega: 3.5-6.5
# New rating: 3.5-6.5
IrrepressibleGuile: 3-7
MiloDC: 2.5-7.5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 3-7


Cammy v Honda
Orig chart (Thelo): 3.5-6.5
Silver Rain 007: 3-7 (or worse)
Noriega: 2-8
Kuroppi: 2-8
MiloDC: 2.5-7.5
# 2010-02-05 rating: 3-7


Cammy v Ken
Orig chart: 3.5-6.5
Zero1_: 4-6
Noriega: 3-7
MiloDC: 3.5-6.5
# Keep 3.5-6.5


Cammy v M.Bison
Orig chart: 4-6
Norieaga: 5-5
VirtuaFighterFour: 2-8
MiloDC: 4-6
# Keep 4-6


Cammy v Sagat
Orig chart: 5-5
Norieaga: 4.5-5.5
# 2010-02-02 rating: 4.5-5.5
orochizoolander: 3.5-6.5
MiloDC: 3.5-6.5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 4-6


Cammy v T.Hawk
Orig chart: 7-3
Norieaga: 7-3
Kuroppi: 7-3
MiloDC: 7-3


Cammy v Ryu
Orig chart: 3.5-6.5
Noriega: 3-7
MiloDC: 2-8
SteveTren: 3.5-6.5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 3-7


Cammy v Vega
Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
Noriega: 5-5
# 2010-02-02 rating: 5-5
MiloDC: 5.5-4.5
# Keep 5-5 for now


Cammy v Zangief
Orig chart: 7-3
rcaido: 6-4
Norieaga: 6-4
Kuroppi: 6-4
# 2010-02-02 rating: 6-4
MiloDC: 6-4


Chun v Deejay
Orig chart (skankin garbage): 5-5
MiloDC: 4.5-5.5
# Keep 5-5


Chun v Dhalsim
Orig chart (skankin garbage): 6-4
MiloDC: 6.5-3.4
# Keep 6-4


Chun v Fei
Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
skankin garbage: 4-6
Aqua Snake: 3.5-6.5
# 2010-02-02 rating: 4-6
MiloDC: 3-7
Jumpsuit: 3-7
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 3.5-6.5


Chun v Guile
Orig chart (skankin garbage): 5-5
Battosai: 6-4
IrrepressibleGuile: 6-4
MiloDC: 4-6
# Keep 5-5


Chun v Honda
Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
-Thelo: 4.5-5.5
-Zass: 4-6
-skankin garbage: 6-4
-arstal: 6.5-3.5
EA Megaman: 5.5-4.5
Kuroppi: 5.5-4.5
MiloDC: 6-4
# Stay at 5.5-4.5


Chun v Ken
Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
skankin garbage: 4-6
# 2010-02-02 rating: 4.5-5.5
Zero1_: 5-5
MiloDC: 4-6
# Keep 4.5-5.5


Chun v M.Bison
Orig chart (skankin garbage): 6-4
MiloDC: 3.5-6.5 (!)


Chun v Ryu
Orig chart: 4-6
skankin garbage: 3.5-6.5
MiloDC: 3.5-6.5
SteveTren: 4-6
# Keep 4-6


Chun v Sagat
Orig chart (skankin garbage): 4-6
orochizoolander: 4-6
MiloDC: 3-7
# Keep 4-6


Chun v T.Hawk:
Orig chart (detailed below): 5.5-4.5
-Zass: 4-6 ## removed vote
-JigglyNorris: 4.5-5.5
-Eventhubs guy: 5-5
-skankin garbage: 6-4
-Ouroborus: "Chun's worst matchup"
-gridman: "Hawk splash still kills Chun Li"
VirtuaFighterFour: 6.5-3.5
MiloDC: 2.5-7.5
# Controversial, wait for some actual matches


Chun v Vega
Orig chart: 5-5
MiloDC: 3.5-6.5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 4.5-5.5


Chun v Zangief
Orig chart (skankin garbage): 7-3
Kuroppi: 5.5-4.5
# 2010-02-02 rating: 6-4
MiloDC: 6-4


Deejay v Fei
Orig chart (BruceLB): 7-3
Aqua Snake: 6-4
Jumpsuit: 7-3
# Keep at 7-3


Deejay v Guile
Orig chart: 5-5
IrrepressibleGuile: 4-6
# 2010-02-05 rating: 4.5-5.5


Deejay v Sagat
Orig chart: 5-5
orochizoolander: 4.5-5.5
# Stay at 4.5-5.5 for now



Dhalsim v Fei
Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
Aqua Snake: 6.5-3.5
# 2010-02-02 rating: 6-4
Jumpsuit: 6.5-3.5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 6.5-3.5


Dhalsim v Guile
Orig chart: 6-4
Axel Kelly: 7-3
# 2010-02-02 rating: 6.5-3.5
IrrepressibleGuile: 7-3


Dhalsim v M.Bison
Orig chart: 5-5
VirtuaFighterFour: 5-5 (?)
SweetJohnnyV: 4-6
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 4.5-5.5


Dhalsim v Sagat
Orig chart: 7-3
orochizoolander: 7-3



Fei v Guile
Orig chart: 4-6
Coth_X: "More even than that" (4.5-5.5 ?)
TecmoSuperBowl: "At least even, if not in Fei's favor" (5-5 to 5.5-4.5)
Aqua Snake: 5-5
# 2010-02-02 rating: 5-5
IrrepressibleGuile: 5-5
Jumpsuit: 3-7
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 4.5-5.5


Fei v Honda
Orig chart (Thelo): 3.5-6.5
EA Megaman: 3.5-6.5 (?)
Kuroppi: 3.5-6.5
Aqua Snake: 3.5-6.5
Jumpsuit: 4-6
# Keep 3.5-6.5


Fei v Ken
Orig chart: 4-6
Aqua Snake: 4-6
Jumpsuit: 4.5-5.5


Fei v M.Bison
Orig chart: 5-5
Percy: "More in Fei's favour"
Aqua Snake: 5-5
Mackdaddi: 6-4
VirtuaFighterFour: 5-5 (?)
# 2010-02-02 rating: 5.5-4.5
Jumpsuit: 2-8
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 4.5-5.5


Fei v Ryu
Orig chart: 4-6
Aqua Snake: 4-6
Jumpsuit: 4-6
SteveTren: 4-6
# Keep 4-6


Fei v Sagat
Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
-Sirlin: 6-4 (my interpretation)
Aqua Snake: 5.5-4.5
orochizoolander: 4-6
Jumpsuit: 6-4
# Stay at 5.5-4.5


Fei v T.Hawk
Orig chart (JigglyNorris?): 6-4
Aqua Snake: 5-5
# 2010-02-02 rating: 5.5-4.5
Jumpsuit: 7-3
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 6-4


Fei v Vega
Orig chart: 4-6
Aqua Snake: 4-6
Jumpsuit: 3-7
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 3.5-6.5


Fei v Zangief
Orig chart: 7-3
rcaido: 5-5
Aqua Snake: 6-4
Kuroppi: 6-4
# 2010-02-02 rating: 6-4
Jumpsuit: 5-5
# 2010-02-05 rating: 5.5-4.5


Guile v Honda
Orig chart (Thelo): 6-4
EA Megaman: 6-4 (?)
Kuroppi: 6-4
IrrepressibleGuile: 6-4
# Stay at 6-4


Guile v Ken
Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
IrrepressibleGuile: 4-6



Guile v M.Bison
Orig chart: 5-5
VirtuaFighterFour: 4.5-5.5
# 2010-02-02 rating: 4.5-5.5
IrrepressibleGuile: 6-4


Guile v Ryu
Orig chart: 5-5
Battosai: 4-6
IrrepressibleGuile: 4-6
SteveTren: 5-5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 4.5-5.5


Guile v Sagat
Orig chart: 4-6
IrrepressibleGuile: 6-4
Axel Kelly: "Maybe 5-5, no way Guile wins it"
AudioCG: "In Guile's favor or dead even"
# 2010-02-02 rating: 5-5
orochizoolander: 4-6



Guile v T.Hawk
Orig chart: 6-4
Kuroppi: 6-4
JigglyNorris: 6-4
gridman: 7-3
# 2010-02-02 rating: 6-4
IrrepressibleGuile: 7-3
# 2010-02-05 rating: 6.5-3.5


Guile v Vega
Orig chart: 3.5-6.5
Battosai: 2-8
IrrepressibleGuile: 4-6
# Stay at 3.5-6.5


Guile v Zangief
Orig chart: 6.5-3.5
Kuroppi: 6.5-3.5
Zero1_: 7-3
IrrepressibleGuile: 7-3
# Keep 6.5-3.5


Honda v Sagat
Orig chart (Thelo): 4.5-5.5
orochizoolander: 4.5-5.5
# Keep 4.5-5.5


Honda v Zangief
Orig chart (Thelo): 7.5-2.5
Kuroppi: 6.5-3.5 (!)
EA Megaman: 7.5-2.5 (?)
Zero1_: 8-2
# Stay at 7.5-2.5


Ken v Sagat
Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
damdai (old): 5-5
orochizoolander: 4.5-5.5
# Keep 4.5-5.5


Ken v Zangief
Orig chart: 5-5
Kuroppi: 6-4
# 2010-02-02 rating: 6-4
Zero1_: 6-4
# Keep 6-4


M.Bison v Sagat
Orig chart: 5-5
orochizoolander: 4.5-5.5
# Stay at 5-5 for now


M.Bison v T.Hawk
Orig chart: 5-5
VirtuaFighterFour: 7-3
Kuroppi: 4-6
Mackdaddi: 4-6
JigglyNorris: 7-3
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 6-4


M.Bison v Vega
Orig chart: 6-4
blitzfu: 6-4


Ryu v Zangief
Orig chart: 5-5
Kuroppi: 6-4
Zero1_: 6-4
SteveTren: 6-4


Ryu v Sagat
Orig chart: 5-5
damdai (old): 4-6
orochizoolander: 4.5-5.5
SteveTren: 5-5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 4.5-5.5


Ryu v Vega
Orig chart: 4-6
SteveTren: 4-6
Ganelon: 4-6
blitzfu: 3-7


Sagat v T.Hawk
Orig chart: 6.5-3.5
Kuroppi: 6.5-3.5
gridman: 5.5-4.5
orochizoolander: 6-4
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 6-4


Sagat v Vega
Orig chart: 4-6
orochizoolander: 5-5
# 2010-02-05 new rating: 4.5-5.5


Sagat v Zangief
Orig chart: 7-3
orochizoolander: 7-3
# Keep 7-3
Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
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Comments

  • IrrepressibleGuileIrrepressibleGuile The Power Cosmic Joined: Posts: 726
    6-4 guile vs sagat is questioniabe, I'd say guile has a slight advantage in that matchup IMO 6-4 guile
    Funniest Rage Quit Ever:
    HDR Hate Mail Collection:
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    I find it strange that apparently Vega is higher in ranking in HDR than in ST.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I could go with that, but I feel like fei vs guile is more even than that.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • GoldenArchGoldenArch Joined: Posts: 389
    Hmm...the Cammy players won't like it. :bgrin:
  • PercyPercy now on tour Joined: Posts: 207
    Dic - Fei 5-5? I think that matchup is a little more in Fei's favour, he can really shut Dic down. Thats the only thing that stands out to me straight away... Other than that good job! I like the idea of the whole work in progress thing too
    online gay! need some offline love!
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    I'd appreciate if others can comment on any of the proposed changes on matchups they feel comfortable with, and say if they agree of disagree with the change.

    For instance, Guile - Sagat is currently written as 4-6, but IrrepressibleGuile thinks the inverse is true (6-4 in Guile's favor). Can anyone else weigh in on Guile vs Sagat?

    As a dedicated Honda player, I can only rely on others for non-Honda matchups. :wink:
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • Axel KellyAxel Kelly Joined: Posts: 1,481
    6-4 guile vs sagat is questioniabe, I'd say guile has a slight advantage in that matchup IMO 6-4 guile

    You're insane if you think Guile has an advantage in that match. Maybe a 5-5, but there's no way Guile wins it.

    Also I think Guile vs Sim is more like 3-7. Guile vs Blanka and Claw are down as 3.5-6.5 (which sounds about right), but the Sim fight is harder than both of those
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    Other than maybe a .5 here or there I'd say you're Honda match-ups are spot on Thelo (not surprising).


    How about some details with the arguments? People are shouting out numbers without giving out reasons. For instance I'd like to hear from Mr.Irrepressible why he thinks the Guile- Sagat match-up (which sucked for Guile in ST) is now in Guile's favor? Other than the fact that there's not as many good Sagat players around anymore, LOL.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • Silver Rain 007Silver Rain 007 Professional Economist Joined: Posts: 2,108
    Hmm...the Cammy players won't like it. :bgrin:

    Ummm... well we don't like lots of things...

    I would say though that I can't justify having Cammy / Guile at 3/7 and Cammy / Honda at 3.5 / 6.5 .

    You at least have to flip those and I still personally believe Cammy / Honda is something like 2-8 but that's just me. The rest of those numbers would be nitpicking for Cammy as far as I'm concerned, in other words, nice job Thelo!
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    I commend the effort in trying to make a chart everyone agrees on. However, I would invest to much time into it.
    Its only a matter of time befoe its giong to turn into a **epic battle of pointless debate** of personal opionion. Good luck though. :)

    EDIT: Seems like I may be wrong. PPL are posting tons of stuff. Looks like I'm the troll this time. My bad. :/
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  • cheezface immortalcheezface immortal unbeatlievable Joined: Posts: 1,082
    I find it strange that apparently Vega is higher in ranking in HDR than in ST.

    Thank you. This was my first thought when I saw the chart. Vega was generally considered about 4th in ST behind various random orders of Sagat, Dhalsim, and Balrog. Sirlin made some balance changes in this game and while some characters got better in various ways there were others, including Vega, who got worse. Also remember that he made a few changes (like Zangief cr. fierce for example) just specifically to work against Vega so he basically singled this character out more than any other character.

    But the key point I made is that he got worse. I love my fake walldive but if you give the choice of HDR Vega vs. ST Vega it'll take me .1 seconds to respond ST Vega easy!!! I'll take stored flipkick and knockdown walldive every day and twice on Sunday's over HDR Vega and his fake walldive. There is no way in my mind that he could have jumped up 3 spots let along catapult to the #1 spot overall. :rofl:

    I'm curious, Thelo, who were the Vega players you consulted with for this chart? And apparently some of the people playing other characters thought Vega was just a terrible matchup for them suddenly? Like you, for example, as an E. Honda player. You can't honestly tell me you'd rather play this matchup in ST over HDR, now can you? Be honest.


    Oh goodness!!!! Ok this is the last thing I will harp on. I don't mean to bash on this at all because I know everyone has their own opinions and this chart is based on opinions obviously but there is no way M. Bison sunk waaaaaaay the hell below Chun Li. Just no! :rofl::nono: They were both strong characters in ST. They are both still good characters in this game but they went in opposite directions. This chart has it backwards. Chun Li is the one who got worse and should go down. M. Bison is the one who got better and should go up. That is exactly why you see someone like NKI switching from Chun Li to M. Bison.

    Actually at this point, can we get the complete list of folks who gave input for this chart? I'm just curious. :rofl:
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  • GrogGrog discombobulatingly Joined: Posts: 3,617
    snip

    Who's this scrub Vega/Immortal wannabe fanboy? :arazz:

    I've always felt that lists and charts like this were better suited for other fighters than ST/HDR. ST is a very matchup heavy game where with the same character you can completely dominate (Sim vs Guile) and then with the same character you can get your shit pushed in (Sim vs Vega) so in saying Sim is "top" can be situational, where saying Yun is top in 3S has a bit more stability. The magic of ST is that literally everyone has a chance to win, nothing is unwinnable - just sometimes more difficult.
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  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    I'm pretty sure that every super-competitive Chun player on this board feels that Fei vs Chun is 6-4 Fei.

    Also, I think Chun v Ken is 6-4 Ken. It's definitely not in her favor anymore, imo.
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  • AudioCGAudioCG Bang The Machine Joined: Posts: 877
    I'd appreciate if others can comment on any of the proposed changes on matchups they feel comfortable with, and say if they agree of disagree with the change.

    For instance, Guile - Sagat is currently written as 4-6, but IrrepressibleGuile thinks the inverse is true (6-4 in Guile's favor). Can anyone else weigh in on Guile vs Sagat?

    As a dedicated Honda player, I can only rely on others for non-Honda matchups. :wink:

    I concur with the matchup being in Guiles favor or dead even, Gat has no easy solutions in that match.
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  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    I used to think that Chun beat Honda, but after we played a good series of games, I'm inclined to agree with you Thelo that this is advantage Honda. I would agree to 6-4 in Honda's favor.
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  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    I used to think that Chun beat Honda, but after we played a good series of games, I'm inclined to agree with you Thelo that this is advantage Honda. I would agree to 6-4 in Honda's favor.

    Hmm... Maybe online, but I don't really agree with this when there is no latency. I think Thelo's current assessment is more correct. 5.5/4.5 in Chun's favor.
  • rcaidorcaido Dynamic Bayside Duo Joined: Posts: 8,323
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    
    Zangief 5   4.5 2.5 3   3   -   3   4   5   3   3   4   6   4   3   4      57
    

    Ryu 4.5 - Fake fireball give Ryu the edge
    Guile 4 -Faster Running bear grab helps improve this matchup
    Cammy 4 or 4.5 - Maybe its the people i play but i dont struggle with the "All-star Cammy's) Never played Jangra though
    Fei 5 Actually this is almost even IMO, maybe even giving the advantage to gief
    Deejay 3 - Deejay deals more damage then Guile, that slide kick is also annoying
    Balrog 5.5 - i cant really comment as i dont play too many Balrogs, i struggle at times
    Vega 3 - Maybe its the lag
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    Other than maybe a .5 here or there I'd say you're Honda match-ups are spot on Thelo (not surprising).

    I agree. Thelo, your Honda numbers look pretty much spot-on to me as well. I think Honda's numbers are maybe .5 too high against a few characters but I won't nitpick over .5. The only big disagreement I would have is Honda vs Ryu. I think that should be 2-8 at best and honestly I would probably put it even lower.
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  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    The only big disagreement I would have is Honda vs Ryu. I think that should be 2-8 at best and honestly I would probably put it even lower.

    I also agree. If it were my ranking chart I'd say 9-1 but I'll live with 8-2 because well, I guess Honda might get lucky twice.
  • Sweet PoisonSweet Poison Knowledge is power. Joined: Posts: 981
    I think that Ryu vs Sim is even. I think Ryu has all the tools to play offensive as well as defensive and keep Sim honest. 5 -5; Nerfs hurt Sim more in this fight.

    I think Dee Jay has a slightly better chance against Sim over Guile due to his slide and great normals. Sim can still use crouching strong but will have to trade hits. Dh 5.5 - Sa 4.5; Nerfs hurt Sim more in this fight.

    Until someone can show me different I see Balrog with a 6 to 4 advantage over Sim. Sim has to guess and guess properly as well as has a very difficult time keeping Rog out. Granted both Supers were toned for both characters but this ultimately effects Sim as Balrog fills his meter very quickly allowing him to truly dictate match once he has it. Dh 4 - Ba 6; Again nerfs hurt Sim more than Rog.

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  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    This chart is artificially compressed. These matchups are way more lopsided. Look at the characters arranged by total points...

    Vega - 83.5 <-- could use a few more points
    Ryu - 83 <-- second best character? Doubtful.
    Balrog - 82.5
    Dee Jay - 80 <-- better than Sim? I doubt that as well.
    Dhalsim - 79.5
    E.Honda - 79 <-- Honda being a .5 point different than Sim...:sweat:
    Chun Li - 79 <-- needs to be way lower
    Ken - 77
    Sagat - 76.5
    Guile - 76.5
    Blanka - 73
    Cammy - 72.5 <-- Cammy even with Dictator? Total bullshit.
    M.Bison - 72.5
    Fei Long4 - 68.5 <-- Fei is better than Blanka and Cammy, no way he's this low
    T.Hawk - 60
    Zangief - 57 <-- I'm not convinced that Zangief is worse than Hawk or Cammy in HDR.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • JigglyNorrisJigglyNorris The Low Tier Hero Joined: Posts: 1,279
    Actually agree with Ryu being top tier. Once you learn to combo off Super consistently it just completely changes the game. Fake fireball helps him a lot too.
  • 1hitparry1hitparry Scrubasaurus Joined: Posts: 1,516
    snip

    OMG FRACTIONS! Only Coth will be able understand this!

    My thoughts on Boxer vs. X (Boxer / X)

    Chun: H2O / CH3OH
    Ken: 2H2+O2 -> H2O / PV=nRT

    In all seriousness, I think Boxer Ken is 5-5 or even 5.5 - 4.5 in Ken's favor. His slower fireball is harder for Boxer to get around and he can use his jab SRK or double jab SRK to cover himself better than Ryu can. Ryu's super is dangerous, but you can see it coming, but Ken's threat of reversal super means you can't meaty Heabutt or Super for free. Throw loops are very difficult for Boxer to deal with unless he has super.
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    This chart is artificially compressed. These matchups are way more lopsided. Look at the characters arranged by total points...
    Feel free to point out matchup ratings that you think should be different then. These totals are merely the sum of all ratings for a given character, they're not what I think "should" be their overall power level.
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  • Silver Rain 007Silver Rain 007 Professional Economist Joined: Posts: 2,108
    This chart is artificially compressed. These matchups are way more lopsided. Look at the characters arranged by total points...

    Cammy - 72.5 <-- Cammy even with Dictator? Total bullshit.
    Fei Long4 - 68.5 <-- Fei is better than Blanka and Cammy, no way he's this low
    Zangief - 57 <-- I'm not convinced that Zangief is worse than Hawk or Cammy in HDR.

    Umm... what's with all the Cammy hate? I know you love to talk ST and O / N this and that... but Remix Cammy is superior to her either of her ST counterparts. I mean if you're talking about the overall place in tier rankings... maybe I see your point, but I think if you decide to group them without specific numbers you're still going to say that your "low tier" is Cammy, Fei, Hawk, Blanka, etc. So either you feel Remix Cammy isn't as good as O/N Cammy, which I'd LOVE to hear that one, or she just somehow didn't get as much better as the other characters you mentioned and anecdotally from people I talk to, I don't think that's the case either...

    I mean go through the tier list and add them up. If we're going to measure in the aggregate method, I think Cammy might be a better character than Fei or Gief or Blanka. Cammy's problem is that the matchups she struggles with, she REALLY struggles. Think about her bad matchups, they're not 6/4, they're 7/3 and 8/2. That's the knock on Cammy, she's the reverse of Honda. Where Honda wins he REALLY wins, where Cammy loses she REALLY loses and the matches she wins are against other 'low tier' characters who aren't as prevalent in tournament play further aggrevating her weaknesses in high end play. But she's not losing (on a tier chart) against Hawk, Fei, Blanka, Zangief...
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  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,217
    Feel free to comment and offer corrections to the chart.
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    Cammy   3.5  3.5 3.5 4.5 5.5 7   3   6   7   -   5.5 4   6   4.5 5   4      72.5
    
    Ryu - Make it 7-3, Ryu can be beaten if you get within cr. mk range. Main problem is that you must guess correctly on opening move whether to neutral jump, drill, or hooligan.
    Ken - Also 7-3, Ken's slower fireball is good and bad for Cammy. Its harder to knuckle but easier to walk forward.
    Honda - 8-2, I can barely beat average Honda's
    Chun-Li - Agreed, especially once you start crossing up
    Blanka - I personally have HUGE problems with this match so I won't comment
    Zangief - I'd say 6-4. Match can be won but if you make a mistake you're toast. 'Gief can also beat all your specials with his sweep pretty much
    Guile - I'd say 7.5, this match also relies on correctly guessing your opening move. Once you're out of range its OVER.
    Dhalsim - Agreed, maybe 6-4. Can be beaten but is problematic if you're out of range.
    T-Hawk - Agreed, it gets especially easy if you're good at reaction Thrust Kicks
    Fei-Long - Totally disagree. I'd say 8-2 or 7.5-2.5 Cammy. This is my easiest matchup by far.
    Dee-Jay - Agreed, though cr. mk can beat slide. Crossing up is also vital.
    Balrog - I say 5-5. TAP is brutal and so is headbutt. Rushes can be beaten with cr. mk but you must be very smart.
    Vega - I'd say 5-5. If you can catch Vega then its fair game.
    Sagat - I'd say 5.5-4.5 for Sagat. Doing knuckles and guessing which tiger he'll throw is hard.
    Bison - At least 5-5. If you be patient and use j. mp and st. mk he can be beaten. Crossing up is vital.

    My changes put Cammy at 71, though I'll need to re-evaluate that Blanka matchup once I finally get good at it. For me personally, the match is 6-4 +Blanka.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    According to the chart:
    Top Tier & Appropriate Relative Frequency
    Boxer (16), Ryu (7), Cammy (6), Vega (5), Honda (2)

    The rest, in order:
    Chun, Sim, Zangief, Guile, Ken, Bison, Sagat & Dee Jay (tied), Blanka, Fei, Hawk
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
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  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,176
    Again nerfs hurt Sim more than Rog.

    I might not be the greatest Sim player but I still understand X's and O's.

    Serious? All Sim had taken away from him was super strength damage/vulnerability and shortened noogie throw, none of which really impact this fight. Most of Rog's special moves generate less meter, his super does less damage and his jab headbutt is no longer safe on block (probably the biggest nerf he got). If you are a zone pro with Sim, it definitely turns into ether an even fight or a .5-1.0 advantage to Sim.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • zaspacerzaspacer Joined: Posts: 553
    But the key point I made is that he got worse. I love my fake walldive but if you give the choice of HDR Vega vs. ST Vega it'll take me .1 seconds to respond ST Vega easy!!! I'll take stored flipkick and knockdown walldive every day and twice on Sunday's over HDR Vega and his fake walldive. There is no way in my mind that he could have jumped up 3 spots let along catapult to the #1 spot overall. :rofl:

    A few things to consider:

    1) MOST top tier ST characters were nerfed in HDR, and most players would prefer their ST versions on a power level.
    You're looking at HDR Claw in a vacuum. But Claw, O.Sagat, Boxer, Dhalsim, Chun Li, were all nerfed in power from ST.
    In contrast, characters like Ryu and Dictator only got better.
    Looking at the ST tier list as a 100% pure guide for HDR doesn't hold up because enough of the characters have shifted from it.

    2) When it comes to tourney play, usually the top factors in a character's power are:
    A - do they have any TERRIBLE matchups. (which can spell an auto-lose and easy counter picking)
    The chart doesn't list any matchup below a 4, which indicates Claw has no auto-lose matchup.
    B - how do they matchup up vs. the top tier characters. (ones you can expect the top players to show up playing)
    The chart gives Claw 7 points for his matchup vs. T.Hawk, but if you are unlikely to face him at a tourney then this number never really comes into play. (even though it was part of the total you were looking at)
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  • TecmoSuperBowlTecmoSuperBowl Don't look here. Joined: Posts: 423
    I could go with that, but I feel like fei vs guile is more even than that.

    I think so too. Fei's new CW and longer range with Rekkas make him more difficult to zone than in ST. I think this matchup is at least even, if not in slightly in Fei's favor.
  • Sweet PoisonSweet Poison Knowledge is power. Joined: Posts: 981
    Serious? All Sim had taken away from him was super strength damage/vulnerability and shortened noogie throw, none of which really impact this fight. Most of Rog's special moves generate less meter, his super does less damage and his jab headbutt is no longer safe on block (probably the biggest nerf he got). If you are a zone pro with Sim, it definitely turns into ether an even fight or a .5-1.0 advantage to Sim.
    I'm very serious. Again like I said show me some high quality Sim's playing against high quality Rog's. And just because the jab headbutt isnt safe on block doesnt mean Sim can punish it necessarily either. Do you even play Rog because I assure you he has no problem getting his meter filled even if it has been handicapped to some degree. Also Balrog can do 2 hit dizzies and can combo very well against Sim ending the match very quickly. Again if someone can show me some matches and please dont rehash Gian videos. He is not the only Sim player and he hasnt played every single Balrog player. Just saying.
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  • Sweet PoisonSweet Poison Knowledge is power. Joined: Posts: 981
    A few things to consider:

    1) MOST top tier ST characters were nerfed in HDR, and most players would prefer their ST versions on a power level.
    You're looking at HDR Claw in a vacuum. But Claw, O.Sagat, Boxer, Dhalsim, Chun Li, were all nerfed in power from ST.
    In contrast, characters like Ryu and Dictator only got better.
    Looking at the ST tier list as a 100% pure guide for HDR doesn't hold up because enough of the characters have shifted from it.

    2) When it comes to tourney play, usually the top factors in a character's power are:
    A - do they have any TERRIBLE matchups. (which can spell an auto-lose and easy counter picking)
    The chart doesn't list any matchup below a 4, which indicates Claw has no auto-lose matchup.
    B - how do they matchup up vs. the top tier characters. (ones you can expect the top players to show up playing)
    The chart gives Claw 7 points for his matchup vs. T.Hawk, but if you are unlikely to face him at a tourney then this number never really comes into play. (even though it was part of the total you were looking at)
    well stated Zaspacer so lets take Dhalsim then using your example. It would be fair to say he could possibly play a Vega, Chun Li, Blanka, Balrog, Cammy which would mean he could have difficult matches from the get go. Sure he could face a Zangief, T.Hawk, Sagat but as you have said it might not be likely because people either wont use them or will try to counter pick you and use someone else.
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  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I find it strange that apparently Vega is higher in ranking in HDR than in ST.

    Dhalsim and boxer should still be above claw if they already were in ST (which is what the top Japanese players have always indicated); it's difficult to see how they were nerfed worse overall. I think the reason is a lot of folks docked off points here and there for minor weaknesses. Sure, I could've reduced claw's lead by 0.5 points for almost every match since he loses on average at least 10% damage per round off repeated wall dives in every match but I know it doesn't work like that in reality.

    The ST tier list, while not perfectly aligned with HDR's, is still incredibly close. The exact same players are winning with the same characters. It's not like from CE to HF where plenty of hitboxes were changed around. HDR's changes have been very minor.

    I listed my take on the claw matchups in that tier thread (which is still accurate to how I feel) and think it's better if every player's views were separated to clarify where each stood. Consensus is a bit of a misnomer when it's only the highest level play that these matchup figures are supposed to apply (and perhaps I'm wrong but I think that some opinions are based solely off online matches and those should really only apply to online play).

    The concept of better characters is based off total matchup points though, which is how most folks quantify tiers. As has been brought up in the past, looking only at notably difficult matches (3-7 or lower) or keeping in mind a subset of tourney-expected characters may result in different placement valuations. But as Zangief vs. boxer indicates, it's the actual, specific matchup that matters, not the character's tier placement. And even more important than the matchup (except at the very peak level), it's each player's own skill that really determines a match's outcome. If someone is winning 10-0, either this game is broken or there's a difference in player skill. And everybody is on board that the game isn't broken...
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,176
    I'm very serious. Again like I said show me some high quality Sim's playing against high quality Rog's. And just because the jab headbutt isnt safe on block doesnt mean Sim can punish it necessarily either..

    Crouching MK (or LK, I forget) x2 is pretty much guaranteed if you block a jab headbutt now.
    Do you even play Rog because I assure you he has no problem getting his meter filled even if it has been handicapped to some degree.

    I do. And not to toot my own horn but I play a fairly decent Rog. The best Sims I've played will zone me so well that I can't build meter, which usually means I die.
    Also Balrog can do 2 hit dizzies and can combo very well against Sim ending the match very quickly.

    I wish to know this two-hit dizzy you speak of! Rog combos are good, but not out of line with what most of the cast can dish out.


    I understand where you are coming from. Rog is a hellacious character to deal with. But from what I've witnessed at the upper echelons of play, this match is more or less even.
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  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    I don't think we should be using .5's in the match-ups.

    KIDDING. Just kidding. I'm not gonna start that again. ^_^

    I added a sorted version of the chart you had, Thelo, to your original post, I hope you're okay with that. It's always nice to be able to see how everyone places relatively with each other.

    And I like that you are making the chart again. I think it's been long enough that we can actually start getting this match-up chart a bit more ironed out. It IS odd to me to see Vega up there, but then again, I think Vega's Wall Dive spam has ALWAYS been over exaggerated as being too powerful, and that most of his match-ups in ST have always been regardless of that trap. So nerfing that AND giving him a Fake Wall Dive really probably didn't change his positioning much at all. Meanwhile, everyone else who was better than him got nerfed more than he did, so I can see Vega being top.

    Though I have to ask: how come Bison is so low? He is really buff, and he only got better. Did everyone else just get more better than him? I don't see him in the bottom 4 at all.

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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    I'm curious, Thelo, who were the Vega players you consulted with for this chart? And apparently some of the people playing other characters thought Vega was just a terrible matchup for them suddenly? Like you, for example, as an E. Honda player. You can't honestly tell me you'd rather play this matchup in ST over HDR, now can you? Be honest.

    ...

    Actually at this point, can we get the complete list of folks who gave input for this chart? I'm just curious. :rofl:
    I unfortunately don't have such a complete list of players myself. I originally took the Eventhubs matchup chart as a template, then combed over the original tier thread and individual character threads for matchup ratings to change the chart, then added my own Honda matchup opinions, all of this over a long period of time. At some point I lost the original big text file I used as a database of players' opinions, and since then I just nudge the numbers when I get new opinions.

    As for the Honda - Vega matchup, I can answer that better. It's actually pretty unclear to me whether Honda is more advantaged in ST or HDR. Both characters lost must-reversal-or-I-lose situations (Honda's oicho loop and Vega's knockdown walldive loop) from ST to HDR. Honda's HHS are faster / easier to do, but have less damage / priority. Honda has a better super in HDR, but a shorter jab headbutt + Vega's fake walldive means that his jab headbutt can be baited in HDR (one of the few legit uses of the fake walldive, as I understand it).

    The changes go both ways, but I rated the matchup as Honda 6 - 4 Vega in ST and I still rate it as Honda 6 - 4 Vega in HDR. The dynamic of the matchup has changed, for the better in my humble opinion, but the power level of each character in this matchup mostly remains the same.

    ***

    Edit: jchensor, I don't really mind having the sorted chart. The main reason why I used the character select order rather that the sorted rank order is that I intend to update the chart often, and the ratings may change the characters' places around - and rebuilding that chart after changing rows around can get pretty long.
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  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Edit: jchensor, I don't really mind having the sorted chart. The main reason why I used the character select order rather that the sorted rank order is that I intend to update the chart often, and the ratings may change the characters' places around - and rebuilding that chart after changing rows around can get pretty long.

    Yeah, I was actually guessing it was either that or that you wanted to keep it free from people assuming which character is better than others. No worries. To be honest, the easiest way to update both charts is to update one and then re-sort it again and just paste over the other one, rather than adjusting the numbers in both. ^_^

    Hell, if you want, I'll just come in and re-sort it for you from time to time. I don't mind. :wgrin:

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    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    nice chart idk about the stats but all i say that bison and sagat fell off. and fei long is really good in hdr i dont think he should be that low.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • 1hitparry1hitparry Scrubasaurus Joined: Posts: 1,516
    Boxer vs. Sim

    I think it's even. While Sim's short range game was nerfed, he still has his long range game, which is what he exceled at anyway. If Boxer is at full screen it is still hard for Boxer to get in. And when Boxer gets within jab Low Rush range, Sim's cr. strong and cr. forward are still good counter pokes. As for punishing headbutts, have you tried short slide fierce throw? If that works you throw Boxer right into favorable position (for Sim).
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    For this post I'm going to list the arranged diagram that James added to Thelo's first post in this thread to be used as a reference. The second diagram in my post will be an altered version of the original based on my opinions of each match up. Any numerical value I change from the original chart will be color coded. If a character moves in rank from the original diagram then I will list a +- followed by a number indicating how many places that character changed. Lastly I'll leave a brief writeup about why I changed certain numbers and why I think some characters needed to be shifted.
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    Vega    6   5.5 4   5   6   6   6.5 6   7   5.5 6   5.5 4.5 -   6   4      83.5
    Ryu     -   6   7   6   6   5   5   4   5.5 6.5 6   6.5 4.5 4   5   6      83
    Balrog  5.5 6   5   5   6   4   6   5   6   4   6.5 6   -   5.5 6   6      82.5
    Dee Jay 3.5 5   6.5 5   6   6   5   4   6.5 6   7   -   4   4.5 5   6      80
    Dhalsim 6   6   4.5 4   4.5 6   6   -   6   4   5.5 6   5   4   7   5      79.5
    E.Honda 3   3   -   4.5 6   7.5 4   5.5 7.5 6.5 6.5 3.5 5   6   4.5 6      79
    Chun Li 4   5.5 5.5 -   5.5 7   5   6   4.5 5.5 5.5 5   5   5   4.5 5.5    79
    Ken     4   -   7   4.5 6   5.5 4.5 4   5   6.5 6   5   4   4.5 4.5 6      77
    Guile   5   5.5 6   5   3.5 7   -   4   6   7   6   5   4   3.5 4   5      76.5
    Sagat   5   5.5 5.5 5.5 5   7   6   3   6.5 5   4.5 5   4   4   -   5      76.5
    Blanka  4   4   4   4.5 -   7   6.5 5.5 6.5 4.5 4.5 4   4   4   5   5      73
    Cammy   3.5 3.5 3.5 4.5 5.5 7   3   6   7   -   5.5 4   6   4.5 5   4      72.5
    M.Bison 4   4   4   4.5 5   6   5   5   5   6   5   4   4   6   5   -      72.5
    Fei Long4   4   3.5 4.5 5.5 7   4   4.5 6   4.5 -   3   3.5 4   5.5 5      68.5
    T.Hawk  4.5 5   2.5 5.5 3.5 5   4   4   -   3   4   3.5 4   3   3.5 5      60
    Zangief 5   4.5 2.5 3   3   -   3   4   5   3   3   4   6   4   3   4      57
    
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    Vega    6   [COLOR="Red"]6[/COLOR]   4   5   6   6   6.5 6   7   5.5 6   5.5 4.5 -   6   4      [COLOR="Red"]84[/COLOR]
    Ryu     -   6   7   6   6   5   5   4   [COLOR="Red"]7[/COLOR]   6.5 6   6.5 4.5 4   5   [COLOR="Red"]5[/COLOR]      [COLOR="Red"]83.5[/COLOR]
    Balrog  5.5 6   [COLOR="Red"]6[/COLOR]   5   6   4   6   5   6   4   6.5 6   -   5.5 6   6      [COLOR="Red"]83.5[/COLOR]
    Dee Jay 3.5 5   6.5 5   6   6   5   4   6.5 6   7   -   4   4.5 5   6      80
    Dhalsim 6   6   4.5 4   4.5 6   6   -   6   4   5.5 6   5   4   7   5      79.5
    Ken     4   -   7   4.5 6   5.5 4.5 4   [COLOR="Red"]8[/COLOR]   6.5 6   5   4   [COLOR="Red"]4[/COLOR]   4.5 [COLOR="Red"]5.5[/COLOR]    [COLOR="Red"]79[/COLOR]  [COLOR="Lime"]+2[/COLOR]
    Chun Li 4   5.5 5.5 -   5.5 7   5   6   [COLOR="Red"]3.5[/COLOR] 5.5 5.5 5   5   5   4.5 5.5    [COLOR="Red"]78[/COLOR]
    E.Honda 3   3   -   4.5 6   7.5 4   5.5 7.5 6.5 6.5 3.5 [COLOR="Red"]4[/COLOR]   6   4.5 [COLOR="Red"]5.5[/COLOR]    [COLOR="Red"]77.5[/COLOR]  [COLOR="Black"]-2[/COLOR]
    Guile   5   5.5 6   5   3.5 7   -   4   6   7   6   5   4   3.5 4   [COLOR="Red"]4.5[/COLOR]    76.5
    Sagat   5   5.5 5.5 5.5 5   7   6   3   6.5 5   4.5 5   4   4   -   5      76.5
    M.Bison [COLOR="Red"]5[/COLOR]   [COLOR="Red"]4.5[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]4.5[/COLOR] 4.5 [COLOR="Red"]4[/COLOR]   [COLOR="Red"]4.5[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]5.5[/COLOR] 5   [COLOR="Red"]7[/COLOR]   [COLOR="Red"]8[/COLOR]   5   4   4   6   5   -      [COLOR="Red"]76.5[/COLOR]  [COLOR="Lime"]+2[/COLOR]
    Blanka  4   4   4   4.5 -   7   6.5 5.5 6.5 4.5 4.5 4   4   4   5   [COLOR="Red"]6[/COLOR]      73   [COLOR="Black"]-1[/COLOR]
    Cammy   3.5 3.5 3.5 4.5 5.5 7   3   6   7   -   5.5 4   6   4.5 5   [COLOR="Red"]2[/COLOR]      72.5 [COLOR="Black"]-1[/COLOR]
    Fei Long4   4   3.5 4.5 5.5 7   4   4.5 6   4.5 -   3   3.5 4   5.5 5      68.5
    Zangief 5   4.5 2.5 3   3   -   3   4   5   3   3   4   6   4   3   [COLOR="Red"]5.5[/COLOR]    [COLOR="Red"]58.5[/COLOR]  [COLOR="Lime"]+1[/COLOR]
    T.Hawk  [COLOR="Red"]3[/COLOR]   [COLOR="Red"]2[/COLOR]   2.5 [COLOR="Red"]6.5[/COLOR] 3.5 5   4   4   -   3   4   3.5 4   3   3.5 [COLOR="Red"]3[/COLOR]      [COLOR="Red"]54.5[/COLOR]  [COLOR="Black"]-1[/COLOR]
    
    

    Changed Claw vs Ken to 6-4 (from 5.5-4.5). I think that Claw's ground game can easily net him victories in 6 out of 10 matches. Ken is still solid vs Claw and can keep him going off the wall but Claw doesn't need to touch the wall to win this match up in my opinion.

    Changed Boxer vs Honda from 5-5 to 6-4 in Boxer's favor. Hands have less effective hitboxes in this matchup compared to ST. Ochio throw does less dizzy and bounces away in the corner. Boxer's changes such as harder to build meter and reduced Super damage don't hurt him as much in this match.

    Changed Dictator vs Ryu to 5-5 (from 4-6) because of the new invincibility to Devil's Hand (mostly). Without a Super in ST, Dictator would eat a lot of chip damage in the corner, and he'd have to block meaty fireballs on wake up if he got knocked down. If you blocked a meaty fireball in the corner your opponent could throw another or close the distance and threaten all sorts of stuff (if he already wasn't point blank). Now Ryu players cannot lock you into the corner not nearly as effectively as they could in the past. And Ryu's Super can completely be avoided (or passed through) on wake up instead of having to be taken for chip damage and then having to deal with Ryu if he walked up to you while you were in blockstun. Devil's Hand makes this match even in my opinion. Ryu's fake fireball is useful in this match but nowhere near as useful a tool as the new Devil's Reverse is.

    Slightly changed Dictator vs Ken to 4.5-5.5 (from 4-6). Knee bash is far less effective in this match, Ken has to take an extra step to get within throw range off his usual tick set ups, and Dictator already had a larger throw range in ST. You can counter throw much more easily if he tries to use a hold in this match. Devil's Reverse also can get you around fireballs effectively as well. Still though, Ken has a DP that can't be safe jumped, so Dictator's okizeme is slightly less dangerous in this match than the other shoto, Ryu.

    Slightly changed Dictator vs Honda to 4.5-5.5 (from 4-6). I hesitate to make this match even but it's not nearly as bad as it was in ST. In Super Turbo, Honda could annihilate Dictator in the corner with the Ochio throw loop. Now that's gone, and Honda's hands have worse hit boxes and deal less damage, and Ochio doesn't dizzy as much. I don't see this match as scary anymore for Dictator.

    Changed Dictator vs Zangief to 4.5-5.5 (from 6-4). Not sure how anyone got Dictator being in favor for this match. Zangief has a myriad of normal attacks that stuff scissor kicks and psycho crusher. Dictator has no reliable reversal to beat command throws so he's almost always free for SPDs if Zangief touches him. Dictator has to keep Zangief out the entire match while building meter in case he needs to get out of jail. Trying to knock Zangief down and cross him up with Dictator is also not easy (meaning you lose some of those ToD victories).

    Slightly changed Dictator vs Guile to 5.5-4.5 (from 5-5). Dictator can knock Guile down quite often in this match and Guile is easy to both crossup and safe jump. Dictator can also safe jump Guile, tick him to that Guile is out of throw range, and then throw him for free. Dictator's new standing jab is also a new tool in this match though it isn't anything game changing. Devil's Reverse however is. Guile loses his flash kick charge if he throws a sonic boom, so you can Devil's Reverse through sonic booms, and Guile has to go back into crouch and remain stationary. Guile's new overhead isn't something I'd worry about in this match, it's far better for Guile to try to cross Dictator up mid screen or to jump right on him while he's cornered. Guile also dizzies really easily so he must block after taking two or three successive hits.

    Changed Dictator vs Hawk to 7-3 (from 5-5). T.Hawk might have a new safe dive but he still can't jump at Dictator without getting massacred. Jumping jab and short whiff against Dictator if he crouches. The splash can be hit with some of Dictator's crouching normals. T.Hawk's DP can whiff against crouching Dictator from nearly point blank range. And Dictator can knock Hawk down like crazy and cross him up safely including having safe blockstrings if the crossup is blocked. Dictator should just run away, build meter, then try to knock Hawk down and cross him up. If you have solid execution with Dictator and can keep knocking Hawk down without getting knocked down yourself...then this match is pretty simple. Sure if Dictator gets knocked down (without meter) he's screwed but that's much easier said than done for T.Hawk.

    Changed Dictator vs Cammy to 8-2 (from 6-4). Dictator has a better throw range, can punish tons of her special moves, and doesn't need to rush her down in this match. Very, very winnable for Dictator, and very tough for Cammy to get any kind of offense going. Cammy dizzies easily as well. I never feel threatened as Dictator in this match.

    Changed T.Hawk vs Ryu to 3-7 (from 4.5-5.5). Knockdown dive being gone makes getting Ryu down on the ground much harder. Fake fireball even just once in the round can bait Hawk into diving at the wrong time and getting pushed further back out by a dragon punch. T.Hawk's new throw whiff in this match hurts him incredibly. Any throw attempt can be beaten with a dragon punch whereas in ST every command throw was 100% safe.

    Changed T.Hawk vs Ken to 2-8 (from 5-5). T.Hawk cannot safe jump Ken, and command throws lose to dragon punches, and the dive doesn't score you a knockdown. Good Ken players should punish any okizeme jumping attacks with a reversal fierce dragon punch. And Ken's Super can be used as a reversal now...meaning you can eat Ken's Super from a command throw whiffing. Now matter how much you mix up ticks in this match you are going to get DP'd out of a throw maybe 1/3rd of the time if your opponent is good. Great opponents however won't even let you get close enough for that command throw attempt.

    Changed T.Hawk vs Chun to 6.5-3.5 (from 5.5-4.5). Chun has been nerfed like crazy. R.Hawk has all of O.Hawk's normals including far standing jab which stuffs Chun's reversals. R.Hawk's splash also destroys Chun. This is one of the few matches where T.Hawk players can absolutely obliterate their opponents once they get in. And getting in for this match isn't nearly as tough as matches like the shotos/DJ/Guile.

    I'm still editing this. Just saving the post for now.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    Ok, I'm nowhere near as good as some of the people casting their speculations, but just looking at the Honda matchup for Ryu and Ken seems weird. I main Ken and playing against a good Honda is a grind. I can switch to Ryu, and it's instantly easier. The speed of Ryu's fireball, plus his fake fireball, I feel give him much more favourable odds than Ken. Sure Ken has a nice slow fireball, but what with Honda's jab headbutt, that detracts from it. IMO Ken Vs Honda is 6. Ryu might even be 7.5 what with the fake fireball mind games. I might be missing something, so if I am, please put me right as to why it's thought to be an even match for Ken and Ryu.

    I suppose maybe we should get the opinions of the Honda players?
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,176
    Ken's jab fireball + fierce SRK = honda is fucked in the right hands. Ryu and Ken for my money are equally as hard in capable hands for slightly different reasons.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    Fightcade/USF2: x64
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Ken vs Honda is so fucking easy, it's pathetic. I do find it to be a grind too, but in the boring, yawn-fest kind of grind. I almost feel bad for Honda. Almost. And then I remember that my Zangief gets crushed so easily by even mid level Hondas, and then I don't feel bad anymore. >= J Ryu and Ken vs Honda is easily 7-3 if not 8-2.

    Dhalsim can give Ryu a tough time, but it's not easy. Same with Boxer. Obviously, the Dhalsim player has to have GDLK zoning. Dhalsim is the only character that only becomes top tier at the very highest levels of play IMO. It's incredibly difficult to become that proficient with Dhalsim, but if you can get there like Gian has, the Yoga Master is a real threat to both Ryu and Boxer. Slight advantage for Dhalsim in both matches, 6-4 IMO.
  • EmpirioNEmpirioN Joined: Posts: 71
    Some slight changes on blanka's part, but this is from my personal experience
    IMO:

    Blanka 3 - 7 DJ
    Blanka 3 - 7 Boxer
    Blanka 4 - 6 Sim
    Blanka 4 - 6 Cammy
    Blanka 4 - 6 Fei
    Blanka 4 - 6 Chun Li
    Blanka 4 - 6 Sagat
    It ain't easy being green
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,322
    My proposed changes up for debate. Keep in mind I rate 5.5/4.5 as a slight advantage and 6/4 or 4/6 as an advantage (Which this chart seems to do as well). I believe some players use 6/4 or 4/6 as slight advantage and 7/3 or 3/7 as advantage. Just pointing that out in case there's a debate about what to score even though they are most likely agreeing with each other and not know it.

    Fei vs. Chun - 6.5/3.5 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Guile - 5/5
    Fei vs. Blanka - 6/4 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Deejay - 4/6 in Deejay's favor
    Fei vs. T.Hawk - 5/5
    Fei vs. Gief - 6/4 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Dhalsim - 3.5/6.5 in Sim's favor
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    OMG FRACTIONS! Only Coth will be able understand this!

    My thoughts on Boxer vs. X (Boxer / X)

    Chun: H2O / CH3OH
    Ken: 2H2+O2 -> H2O / PV=nRT

    In all seriousness, I think Boxer Ken is 5-5 or even 5.5 - 4.5 in Ken's favor. His slower fireball is harder for Boxer to get around and he can use his jab SRK or double jab SRK to cover himself better than Ryu can. Ryu's super is dangerous, but you can see it coming, but Ken's threat of reversal super means you can't meaty Heabutt or Super for free. Throw loops are very difficult for Boxer to deal with unless he has super.

    You must add and subtract fractions to stand a chance!
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    My proposed changes up for debate. Keep in mind I rate 5.5/4.5 as a slight advantage and 6/4 or 4/6 as an advantage (Which this chart seems to do as well). I believe some players use 6/4 or 4/6 as slight advantage and 7/3 or 3/7 as advantage. Just pointing that out in case there's a debate about what to score even though they are most likely agreeing with each other and not know it.

    Fei vs. Chun - 6.5/3.5 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Guile - 5/5
    Fei vs. Blanka - 6/4 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Deejay - 4/6 in Deejay's favor
    Fei vs. T.Hawk - 5/5
    Fei vs. Gief - 6/4 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Dhalsim - 3.5/6.5 in Sim's favor

    I can get behind this. I still don't have enough exp against hawk, I think I fought one that was decent maybe in the last 6-8 months.

    @Ganelon, it kind of depends with the online. Yeah you have to have faster reflexes, but if the connection is good enough its simulates close enough to the real thing.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    I multiplied each character's match up number by their total/(75), then got new totals for each character. Thus, these numbers improve the tier rating of a character that has good match ups versus high-tier characters and make good match ups versus low-tiers worth less. This isn't completely accurate, as the formula should technically use its own result to determine the final values, but this is it after one iteration.

    Ryu: 83.35
    Vega: 82.46
    Balrog: 82.06
    Ken: 79.55
    Dee Jay: 78.94
    Dhalsim: 78.5
    E. Honda: 76.06
    Chun Li: 75.28
    Sagat: 75.02
    Guile: 73.8
    M. Bison: 72.57
    Cammy: 70.71
    Blanka: 70.55
    Fei Long: 68.85
    Zangief: 61.19
    T. Hawk: 60.41
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • JigglyNorrisJigglyNorris The Low Tier Hero Joined: Posts: 1,279
    Ken vs. Hawk 8-2? What the hell are you smoking? Fighting Ken is practically fighting Ryu except you can't safe jump him at all. Its 7-3 at worst.

    Ryu vs. Hawk is 6-4 Ryu's favor. Fake FB hardly makes that much of a difference in that fight.
  • MisterEgoTripMisterEgoTrip Bask in Sumo Prowess Joined: Posts: 943
    Here is a matchup chart I made to try to aggregate the matchup rating opinions of most players, with strong players getting more weight in their opinion. The numbers come from all over this forum, and from personal discussions with other players. I try to keep it updated as I get new opinions.

    Thanks Thelo, for putting this long awaited thread out here. This was the thread "I wanted to see" instead of that other thread I sadly mistaken for yesterday. As I expected it brought out a pretty good debate from a lot of the best players here.
    -- "Dosukoi, Dosukoi!", says the Sumo player "Ego" as he simulates the HHS in slow motion --
    -- Honorary member of the "No Honor Crew" --
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