Consensus matchup chart

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  • carn114carn114 Joined: Posts: 81
    For that video, Gief vs Blanka was 4-2, and many games were very close. Hardly conclusive of anything. Lariat was used often, but didn't always win the matches for him. I still think it's a good tool for Zangief, but not something that puts him top tier overall. According to the documentation, it should only beat slide on startup. More of those lariats should be punishable by slide after startup. And at the end of the video, around 11:20, Zangief gets blown up for throwing out too many lariats, and jumping MP was beating it all match. Lariat did lots of work, but was hardly brain dead, and couldn't just be used on its own.

    For Guile vs repeated Gief splashes, cr.HP comes out too slowly, and gets stuffed by splash. Another option would be to trade with close MK or HK, but it's extremely difficult (if not impossible in my experience) to get the close timing right. If you try to throw it out early, you get a far MK/HK which are totally ineffective in this situation, or you throw it out later, and get stuffed by the beastly hitbox on the Gief splash. Both the ST and HDR Guile forums are littered with people trying to figure a way out of it, and the best anyone has come up with is to not get into that situation in the first place. Ken does about as well keeping Gief out, and doesn't have the same problem with repeated splashes.

    And it's not just the repeated splashes that is super scary, it's the potential for an SPD at any moment that makes the splash pressure so big for that matchup. Maybe other charge characters have better non-charged options to deal with it, but my experience is mostly with Guile. The internet and I both agree that splash pressure is killer for him.
    Fighting Game Journal - http://carn114.livejournal.com/
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 323
    edited July 2014
    @mrdhalsim I knew I should have been more clear. I never meant that I don't agree with you; quite the opposite. I just meant that I agree with both of you on one point and not the other; as in, I agree with you about Zangief being absolute top, even though Carn disagrees. On the other end, conversely, I have to side with Carn about Ken being better than you think, IMHO.

    Not sure what you mean about making assumptions about upkicking jump-ins. I can't really say from a technical standpoint how effective they are in general (although it feels like Deejay can deal with them) but I know that after eating one splash, Chun is looped, which sucks. She's the only character I can speak for because I've done research and asked questions.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    edited July 2014
    carn114 wrote: »
    For that video, Gief vs Blanka was 4-2, and many games were very close. Hardly conclusive of anything. Lariat was used often, but didn't always win the matches for him. I still think it's a good tool for Zangief, but not something that puts him top tier overall.

    Thanks for the response. But waaaait a second here- you asked for footage of Zangief lariatting his way to victory. I delivered on that: 4 to 2 in the grand finals of the most recent major HDR tournament. And he did tons of lariats. It didn't always win the matches? He doesn't HAVE to outrun the bear, he only has to outrun Blanka. Sour grapes now? Come on. You're just going to wind up insulting Richard indirectly.

    All lariat and no play makes Zangief lariat lariat lariat.
    carn114 wrote: »
    According to the documentation, it should only beat slide on startup. More of those lariats should be punishable by slide after startup. And at the end of the video, around 11:20, Zangief gets blown up for throwing out too many lariats, and jumping MP was beating it all match. Lariat did lots of work, but was hardly brain dead, and couldn't just be used on its own.

    Lariats are what allowed him to get in, which allows him to SPD, which is the whole goal. It laid down the foundation to victory. Jumping MP was not beating it all match if it was 4-2 Zangief.
    carn114 wrote: »
    For Guile vs repeated Gief splashes, cr.HP comes out too slowly, and gets stuffed by splash. Another option would be to trade with close MK or HK, but it's extremely difficult (if not impossible in my experience) to get the close timing right.

    Close MK's hitbox looks like it could be another option, yeah. You still give up blocking (to try and err on the side of caution in the timing) in that case (because if you hold back the sobat kick comes out, not what you want). But HK (any) won't work at all I think.
    carn114 wrote: »
    If you try to throw it out early, you get a far MK/HK which are totally ineffective in this situation, or you throw it out later, and get stuffed by the beastly hitbox on the Gief splash. Both the ST and HDR Guile forums are littered with people trying to figure a way out of it, and the best anyone has come up with is to not get into that situation in the first place. Ken does about as well keeping Gief out, and doesn't have the same problem with repeated splashes.

    And it's not just the repeated splashes that is super scary, it's the potential for an SPD at any moment that makes the splash pressure so big for that matchup. Maybe other charge characters have better non-charged options to deal with it, but my experience is mostly with Guile. The internet and I both agree that splash pressure is killer for him.
    [/quote]

    I've heard that someone on the Internet is wrong though.

    The "potential" for an SPD seems pretty kinetic to me. It does not make sense why Zangief would not snatch the opportunity for an SPD instead of creating this sideshow. Why would Zangief NOT go for an SPD (or tick into it after landing etc.)? He's just giving a chance for Guile to 1) escape some unnecessary trap and 2) avoid getting SPD'd. It could be that, even with Remix's relaxed motion command requirements, the Zangiefs still can't SPD, is that it?

    btw I'm going to dovetail all this into the lariats thing, and also the Classic mode being night-and-day. If you hate NOT getting SPD'd like this, one of Guile's main weapons that blew Zangief out of the water 8 times out of ten against Zangief was Guile's low mid kick. If the lariat beats that or at worst doesn't get stopped by that (whether "on startup", doesn't even matter btw, either with kick lariat (invulnerable) or punch (can beat it clean!)) then that just gives Zangief all the more likelihood he'll get in, and toy with your (and the entire Internet's) emotions by not SPD'ing.

    "Ken does about as well as keeping Gief out" only supports my points and tier ranking for all three characters.
    Random wrote: »
    @mrdhalsim I knew I should have been more clear. I never meant that I don't agree with you; quite the opposite. I just meant that I agree with both of you on one point and not the other; as in, I agree with you about Zangief being absolute top, even though Carn disagrees. On the other end, conversely, I have to side with Carn about Ken being better than you think, IMHO.

    Not sure what you mean about making assumptions about upkicking jump-ins. I can't really say from a technical standpoint how effective they are in general (although it feels like Deejay can deal with them) but I know that after eating one splash, Chun is looped, which sucks. She's the only character I can speak for because I've done research and asked questions.

    This isn't so subjective. You can side with Carn, the entire Internet, and anyone else but that does not make any of you correct. Ken didn't win tournaments, Damdai did because Damdai had to take risks with Ken. Other characters get further by being able to react more and rely on prediction less.

    Sorry if I was unclear about upkicks- about Guile's Flashkick, it shouldn't be employed against the repeated splashes. Chun's Upkicks won't work after the first iteration of the splash in the corner. Zangief can do this but you have to consider that's not what kills Chun/Guile, it was his ability to get in in the first place (lariats), and even in Remix they have ways to keep Zangief out in the first place. Here are some things to try to keep Zangief out:



    35 seconds
    also from 4:58

    (Whoa! 4:36 the lariat beats Chun's super clean)



    Post edited by mrdhalsim on
  • carn114carn114 Joined: Posts: 81
    No sour grapes, that video was just not what was advertised. Again, at 11:20, lariats get beat hard, as Blanka times his attacks better against it. Further proving my point, Richard decides the lariat is no longer a viable tool, as it was punished like crazy to lose that last game, that he has to give up on Zangief and his all-powerful lariat to pick Cammy to win the set. If Zangief is the top of the top, and his lariat is so unstoppable, why did he lose, and have to change his character? Lariating to victory does not equal switching to Cammy for victory. Doesn't add up to me.

    And there is absolutely no insulting Richard from my end. In fact, it's the exact opposite. I'm saying it's the player that gives Zangief his success, not the other way around. You were the one who said something to the affect of it not being Richard that was winning that set, but Zangief (even though he had to change characters to actually secure the win).

    And in that last video demonstrating upkicks, Zangief and his lariat get totally smashed by the Chun player. I think Lariat landed once, but it wasn't for lack of trying. It was punished or avoided consistently.
    Fighting Game Journal - http://carn114.livejournal.com/
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    edited July 2014
    carn114 wrote: »
    No sour grapes, that video was just not what was advertised. Again, at 11:20, lariats get beat hard, as Blanka times his attacks better against it. Further proving my point, Richard decides the lariat is no longer a viable tool, as it was punished like crazy to lose that last game, that he has to give up on Zangief and his all-powerful lariat to pick Cammy to win the set. If Zangief is the top of the top, and his lariat is so unstoppable, why did he lose, and have to change his character? Lariating to victory does not equal switching to Cammy for victory. Doesn't add up to me.

    Yeah 11:20, out of a video that only continues two more minutes longer. Not to mention the fact of all the other characters Zangief beat to get to the grand finals of that tournament not in the video. Watch from 10:53 btw. Zangief does a standing light punch, which was most likely meant as a lariat-- which would be a knockdown, into great SPD chance for the tournament win right there. So much for the human element. Even if he had lost the entire tournament, that'd still have been a very close 2nd place, and he got there by lariatting his way right up to the point his fingers got too tired to do any more.
    carn114 wrote: »
    And there is absolutely no insulting Richard from my end. In fact, it's the exact opposite. I'm saying it's the player that gives Zangief his success, not the other way around. You were the one who said something to the affect of it not being Richard that was winning that set, but Zangief (even though he had to change characters to actually secure the win).

    And in that last video demonstrating upkicks, Zangief and his lariat get totally smashed by the Chun player. I think Lariat landed once, but it wasn't for lack of trying. It was punished or avoided consistently.

    Yes, I am telling you it is Zangief the character, and that video is a great example of winning the biggest HDR tournament that year (and the latest one?) with lariats, and not so much the human/prediction factor. So when you say Richard "had to change characters to actually secure the win" that's not necessarily valid. 4-2, with one more to go to finish off his opponent? And he "falls back on" Cammy, of all characters. What I see is, lariat lariat lariat, almost win the entire tournament but messes up another lariat.

    The other video was uploaded by the Chun Li player in it, and in the comments he explains these are only a select few games out of the set that the Zangief player won. (and the Zangief player is a great example of the difference between Classic and Remix btw (as well as SF4 and the human factor)). and even "totally smashed" Zangief still manages to work Chun to the corner before he lost those games. I say he should have done more lariats, and probably did in the other games. I don't know though, maybe in the other games, Zangief won them with rabbit jumps instead, but my point in posting the video was an example for Random to zone and keep Zangief out and avoid the situation (or, more practically in Remix, prolong its inevitability as much as possible as he bullies you across the screen).
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 323
    @mrdhalsim So what is it Ken is lacking which keeps him from the top, then?

    That video doesn't make sense to me. Why aren't they punishing Chun? Like 2:33 when she jumps in and away? Been in that scenario and it ends with a SPD. And the second Zangief player? Why didn't he punish her after stomps? Even during SBK he can jump and slap her down but failed to multiple times.

    Anything Chun did to keep them out was preventable, avoidable, counterable. I don't know how they do it to me but even throwing pokes gets me SPD sometimes. I don't see how she kept them out aside from punishment, mind games, and luck.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    edited July 2014
    Random wrote: »
    @mrdhalsim So what is it Ken is lacking which keeps him from the top, then?

    That video doesn't make sense to me. Why aren't they punishing Chun? Like 2:33 when she jumps in and away? Been in that scenario and it ends with a SPD. And the second Zangief player? Why didn't he punish her after stomps? Even during SBK he can jump and slap her down but failed to multiple times.

    Anything Chun did to keep them out was preventable, avoidable, counterable. I don't know how they do it to me but even throwing pokes gets me SPD sometimes. I don't see how she kept them out aside from punishment, mind games, and luck.

    EDIT: sorry, what keeps Ken from the top: other characters mostly just got better improvements than he did. His aren't so bad, like faster spin kick, and what I mentioned a few posts ago. If he just throws stuff out there, it's pretty risky. DeeJay is still above him and didn't need (or get?) many changes. DeeJay can get away with repeatedly cr. mid punch, some standing attacks, has multiple things to anti-air (and most of the stuff Mr. Tuttle said). Ken has a DP, and a slow fireball. The fast tatsu only helps to link combos together, and the crazy kicks don't do him any good really. An invincible MP SRK all the way up is not bad, per se, but all in all it doesn't add up to be too effective against what others already had or got in Remix.

    TKN BOOSTED@Zangief only did two lariats the entire first round, and those were both at the very end when he was way down on life and got perfected. He also lost the next round, where he did a total of one lariat. He violated the winning formula of, do more lariats. I don't think it's so rare for Chun to jump back like that at 2:33, even with Remix's easier SPD inputs. Maybe TKN got so surprised that half of his lariats that round got beat and he let the chance go by to SPD. Chun's spacing was pretty good all in all- not so easy to prevent with her zoning, low kicks/projectiles. She does a good job of keeping Zangief out overall. The distances and spacing are key- doesn't ever really overextend herself at all. Chun Li the character does not have much to work with, but Voltechs makes the most of it including smoke and mirrors.

    After this, SNAKE EYEZ@Zangief did 1 lariat the first round. In the second round, he doubled his efforts to two lariats, again right at the very end (including the one that beat Chun's super, clean). In the final round, he stagnated at the same rate with only two lariats.

    re: SBKs; she does one at 0:40, looks like could be a mistake due to Remix inputs, delayed charge for it but really wanted to punish Zangief as she came down with a regular jump kick hitting him late in the air. (SBK still manages to hit anyway for one hit, incidentally.) At 1:22 she does another one, but gets punished for it. Yeah, it's not really a scary move, but she doesn't try too many. btw the heel stomp at 2:28 she's invincible in her lower body like that, so it's legit and worked perfectly as intended there with gief in the corner. Around 3:03 she does another aerial SBK to try and get a little more breathing room to get away but maybe could still be punished if Zangief guesses it and jumps up to slap right away. (And for all the space it got her, she still winds up the in the corner!) TNK didn't guess it right either at 3:13. The third time though, Chun switches it up with lighting legs instead of SBK for the win. TNK got out cr. mid punch, maybe he meant to jump up with that move but would have landed on lighting legs.

    I suspect Voltechs was playing around with TNK a bit. Chun does one heel stomp at the very end of a close round with Snake Eyez next, out of the corner. That's ok because she was cornerned and things not looking good. Also, and this is key for that whole, "avoiding being there in the first place" thing-- Chun Li's heel stomp might have beat the rabbit jump's inception (maybe it was a splash)! Even if not, fine in that case to opt for the guessing game (SBK to get away, or lighting legs) if Zangief blocks the heel stomp. In any case, you're right that the winning formula for Chun, one of the weakest characters in Remix, is, do less SBKs, generally, and only if you don't have many other options like after Zangief bullied his way in close.


  • carn114carn114 Joined: Posts: 81
    If lariat were that good, it wouldn't have gotten punished so hard during that last game with Zangief. But it did. A small timing adjustment was all it took and lariat was beaten. And if lariat were that good, he wouldn't have needed to change up characters at the end. But he did. Not brain dead, not unbeatable. Not a ladder to top tier.

    And how do you mess up a lariat? It's really the easiest special move in the entire game. He was using stand jab and crouch jab to beat blanka balls throughout the set. I suspect it was because lariat was getting beaten, and he was trying another way to stop the horizontal ball, not a missed input of 3P or 3K in a grand final.
    Fighting Game Journal - http://carn114.livejournal.com/
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    edited July 2014
    In the entire 11:20, I count only 12 standing light punches total. He did a lot more lariats, and was a lot more successful at beating blanka balls with lariats than standing jabs. At 3:57 one of them trades with a blanka ball. Same thing at 5:57. The 11th one, the one I referred to originally at 10:53, and the CRITICAL one to winning the round, game, set, match and largest HDR tournament in recent times, was the close version (chop) which is much less effective if at ALL to stop any blanka ball and will not hit any low attacks at all http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/zangief/cljab.html . That is why, in all likelihood, another lariat was intended (which also stops blanka balls, as well as lots of other stuff). How did he mess up a simple lariat, the easiest special move in the entire game? The answer is, the human element factor. It probably occurred to him the instant before he had to perform the move at that precise time that it was likely the critical moment to winning not only the round, game, set, and match, but also the largest HDR tournament in recent times and it all just got to his head. He messed it up.

    EDIT: just a quick calculation: 12 standing light punches works out to about one of them per round, over a 4-2 set, even assuming minimum number of rounds. It takes about 5 to 10 frames total for each standing light punch, incl startup to recovery.

    EDIT 2: @Random have you tried SBK to get out of Zangief's repeated splashes btw? LK has 13, MK and HK have 17 frames of invulnerability. Not sure if it works. Maybe her Close standing MK, done so it hits or trades from 9th to 14th frame.

    EDIT 3: In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if ALL 12 of those standing jabs were intended to be lariats instead, because he didn't do a barrage of them in a row, as you'd expect when trying to counter potential blanka balls. Also more likely than actually countering blanka balls was as a "fake lariat" to fool Blanka, to keep him guessing.

    EDIT 4: Also, we've already seen someone else besides Richard win the biggest Remix tournaments with Zangief _ON_PAD_. I wonder how feasible it would be to even try stopping blanka balls using the tactic of rapidly pressing standing light punches on a pad controller. Or crouching light punches, for that matter because on pad, can you even press the buttons fast enough? Arcade style stick setups have buttons with actual springs, which, I imagine, depress quicker. Pads have springs in the triggers but it's a lot longer to depress/press again for a rapid fire move that takes less than 10 frames @60fps. I think the face buttons of pads have a rubbery mechanism underneath at work with a different resistance and doubt it'd allow the rapid punches, at least not as easily as on arcade stick buttons. I think one of Zangief's toughest matches in Remix would be Honda so he could use rapid standing punches to stop headbutts too, and it'd also come into play vs. boxer. Sure, it's possible to time only one standing light punch so precisely to stop a blanka ball, but difficult and not worth the effort compared to rapidly jamming on them for a bit. They recover so quickly you might as well throw out five or six instead of just one, if you want to stop a potential blanka ball. But you might as well go for lariats anyway because by the time your opponent figures out how to deal with it, even if he's good enough to get 2nd place in a tournament it will take him 6 games.
    Post edited by mrdhalsim on
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    In the entire 11:20, I count only 12 standing light punches total. He did a lot more lariats, and was a lot more successful at beating blanka balls with lariats than standing jabs. At 3:57 one of them trades with a blanka ball. Same thing at 5:57. The 11th one, the one I referred to originally at 10:53, and the CRITICAL one to winning the round, game, set, match and largest HDR tournament in recent times, was the close version (chop) which is much less effective if at ALL to stop any blanka ball and will not hit any low attacks at all http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/zangief/cljab.html . That is why, in all likelihood, another lariat was intended (which also stops blanka balls, as well as lots of other stuff). How did he mess up a simple lariat, the easiest special move in the entire game? The answer is, the human element factor. It probably occurred to him the instant before he had to perform the move at that precise time that it was likely the critical moment to winning not only the round, game, set, and match, but also the largest HDR tournament in recent times and it all just got to his head. He messed it up.

    EDIT: just a quick calculation: 12 standing light punches works out to about one of them per round, over a 4-2 set, even assuming minimum number of rounds. It takes about 5 to 10 frames total for each standing light punch, incl startup to recovery.

    EDIT 2: @Random have you tried SBK to get out of Zangief's repeated splashes btw? LK has 13, MK and HK have 17 frames of invulnerability. Not sure if it works. Maybe her Close standing MK, done so it hits or trades from 9th to 14th frame.

    EDIT 3: In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if ALL 12 of those standing jabs were intended to be lariats instead, because he didn't do a barrage of them in a row, as you'd expect when trying to counter potential blanka balls. Also more likely than actually countering blanka balls was as a "fake lariat" to fool Blanka, to keep him guessing.

    EDIT 4: Also, we've already seen someone else besides Richard win the biggest Remix tournaments with Zangief _ON_PAD_. I wonder how feasible it would be to even try stopping blanka balls using the tactic of rapidly pressing standing light punches on a pad controller. Or crouching light punches, for that matter because on pad, can you even press the buttons fast enough? Arcade style stick setups have buttons with actual springs, which, I imagine, depress quicker. Pads have springs in the triggers but it's a lot longer to depress/press again for a rapid fire move that takes less than 10 frames @60fps. I think the face buttons of pads have a rubbery mechanism underneath at work with a different resistance and doubt it'd allow the rapid punches, at least not as easily as on arcade stick buttons. I think one of Zangief's toughest matches in Remix would be Honda so he could use rapid standing punches to stop headbutts too, and it'd also come into play vs. boxer. Sure, it's possible to time only one standing light punch so precisely to stop a blanka ball, but difficult and not worth the effort compared to rapidly jamming on them for a bit. They recover so quickly you might as well throw out five or six instead of just one, if you want to stop a potential blanka ball. But you might as well go for lariats anyway because by the time your opponent figures out how to deal with it, even if he's good enough to get 2nd place in a tournament it will take him 6 games.

    EDIT 5: @Random I have confirmed my answer from an authoritative source that the best option for Chun is to go with the close version of her med standing kick. The SBK can evade it, however she is still left in a vulnerable position right afterwards. It is always possible to beat Zangief's splash with close standing mid kick. However I would just emphasize that the moral of the story is, to avoid this situation entirely, and consider the fact that Zangief already did his job to get in.
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