Consensus matchup chart

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  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    Ok, I'm nowhere near as good as some of the people casting their speculations, but just looking at the Honda matchup for Ryu and Ken seems weird. I main Ken and playing against a good Honda is a grind. I can switch to Ryu, and it's instantly easier. The speed of Ryu's fireball, plus his fake fireball, I feel give him much more favourable odds than Ken. Sure Ken has a nice slow fireball, but what with Honda's jab headbutt, that detracts from it. IMO Ken Vs Honda is 6. Ryu might even be 7.5 what with the fake fireball mind games. I might be missing something, so if I am, please put me right as to why it's thought to be an even match for Ken and Ryu.

    I suppose maybe we should get the opinions of the Honda players?
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Ken's jab fireball + fierce SRK = honda is fucked in the right hands. Ryu and Ken for my money are equally as hard in capable hands for slightly different reasons.
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  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Ken vs Honda is so fucking easy, it's pathetic. I do find it to be a grind too, but in the boring, yawn-fest kind of grind. I almost feel bad for Honda. Almost. And then I remember that my Zangief gets crushed so easily by even mid level Hondas, and then I don't feel bad anymore. >= J Ryu and Ken vs Honda is easily 7-3 if not 8-2.

    Dhalsim can give Ryu a tough time, but it's not easy. Same with Boxer. Obviously, the Dhalsim player has to have GDLK zoning. Dhalsim is the only character that only becomes top tier at the very highest levels of play IMO. It's incredibly difficult to become that proficient with Dhalsim, but if you can get there like Gian has, the Yoga Master is a real threat to both Ryu and Boxer. Slight advantage for Dhalsim in both matches, 6-4 IMO.
  • EmpirioNEmpirioN Joined: Posts: 71
    Some slight changes on blanka's part, but this is from my personal experience
    IMO:

    Blanka 3 - 7 DJ
    Blanka 3 - 7 Boxer
    Blanka 4 - 6 Sim
    Blanka 4 - 6 Cammy
    Blanka 4 - 6 Fei
    Blanka 4 - 6 Chun Li
    Blanka 4 - 6 Sagat
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  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,329
    My proposed changes up for debate. Keep in mind I rate 5.5/4.5 as a slight advantage and 6/4 or 4/6 as an advantage (Which this chart seems to do as well). I believe some players use 6/4 or 4/6 as slight advantage and 7/3 or 3/7 as advantage. Just pointing that out in case there's a debate about what to score even though they are most likely agreeing with each other and not know it.

    Fei vs. Chun - 6.5/3.5 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Guile - 5/5
    Fei vs. Blanka - 6/4 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Deejay - 4/6 in Deejay's favor
    Fei vs. T.Hawk - 5/5
    Fei vs. Gief - 6/4 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Dhalsim - 3.5/6.5 in Sim's favor
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    OMG FRACTIONS! Only Coth will be able understand this!

    My thoughts on Boxer vs. X (Boxer / X)

    Chun: H2O / CH3OH
    Ken: 2H2+O2 -> H2O / PV=nRT

    In all seriousness, I think Boxer Ken is 5-5 or even 5.5 - 4.5 in Ken's favor. His slower fireball is harder for Boxer to get around and he can use his jab SRK or double jab SRK to cover himself better than Ryu can. Ryu's super is dangerous, but you can see it coming, but Ken's threat of reversal super means you can't meaty Heabutt or Super for free. Throw loops are very difficult for Boxer to deal with unless he has super.

    You must add and subtract fractions to stand a chance!
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    My proposed changes up for debate. Keep in mind I rate 5.5/4.5 as a slight advantage and 6/4 or 4/6 as an advantage (Which this chart seems to do as well). I believe some players use 6/4 or 4/6 as slight advantage and 7/3 or 3/7 as advantage. Just pointing that out in case there's a debate about what to score even though they are most likely agreeing with each other and not know it.

    Fei vs. Chun - 6.5/3.5 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Guile - 5/5
    Fei vs. Blanka - 6/4 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Deejay - 4/6 in Deejay's favor
    Fei vs. T.Hawk - 5/5
    Fei vs. Gief - 6/4 in Fei's favor
    Fei vs. Dhalsim - 3.5/6.5 in Sim's favor

    I can get behind this. I still don't have enough exp against hawk, I think I fought one that was decent maybe in the last 6-8 months.

    @Ganelon, it kind of depends with the online. Yeah you have to have faster reflexes, but if the connection is good enough its simulates close enough to the real thing.
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  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    I multiplied each character's match up number by their total/(75), then got new totals for each character. Thus, these numbers improve the tier rating of a character that has good match ups versus high-tier characters and make good match ups versus low-tiers worth less. This isn't completely accurate, as the formula should technically use its own result to determine the final values, but this is it after one iteration.

    Ryu: 83.35
    Vega: 82.46
    Balrog: 82.06
    Ken: 79.55
    Dee Jay: 78.94
    Dhalsim: 78.5
    E. Honda: 76.06
    Chun Li: 75.28
    Sagat: 75.02
    Guile: 73.8
    M. Bison: 72.57
    Cammy: 70.71
    Blanka: 70.55
    Fei Long: 68.85
    Zangief: 61.19
    T. Hawk: 60.41
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  • JigglyNorrisJigglyNorris The Low Tier Hero Joined: Posts: 1,279
    Ken vs. Hawk 8-2? What the hell are you smoking? Fighting Ken is practically fighting Ryu except you can't safe jump him at all. Its 7-3 at worst.

    Ryu vs. Hawk is 6-4 Ryu's favor. Fake FB hardly makes that much of a difference in that fight.
  • MisterEgoTripMisterEgoTrip Bask in Sumo Prowess Joined: Posts: 943
    Here is a matchup chart I made to try to aggregate the matchup rating opinions of most players, with strong players getting more weight in their opinion. The numbers come from all over this forum, and from personal discussions with other players. I try to keep it updated as I get new opinions.

    Thanks Thelo, for putting this long awaited thread out here. This was the thread "I wanted to see" instead of that other thread I sadly mistaken for yesterday. As I expected it brought out a pretty good debate from a lot of the best players here.
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Ken vs. Hawk 8-2? What the hell are you smoking? Fighting Ken is practically fighting Ryu except you can't safe jump him at all. Its 7-3 at worst.

    Ryu vs. Hawk is 6-4 Ryu's favor. Fake FB hardly makes that much of a difference in that fight.

    Did you really have to open that door jiggly, we all know what's gonna happen.
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  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    original wrote:
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    
    
    E.Honda 3   3   -   4.5 6   7.5 4   5.5 7.5 [COLOR=Black]6.5[/COLOR] 6.5 [COLOR=Black]3.5[/COLOR] 5   6   4.5 6      79
    
    Zangief 5   4.5 2.5 3   3   -   3   4   5   3   3   4   6   4   3   4      57
    
    T.Hawk  4.5 5   2.5 5.5 3.5 5   4   4   -   3   4   3.5 4   3   3.5 5      60
    
    Modified wrote:
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    
    E.Honda [COLOR=Red]1.5 2.5[/COLOR] -   4.5 6   [COLOR=Red]6.5[/COLOR] 4   5.5 7.5 [COLOR=Red]8[/COLOR]   6.5 [COLOR=Red]3[/COLOR]   5   6   4.5 [COLOR=Red]5.5[/COLOR]    [COLOR=Red]76.5[/COLOR]
    
    Zangief [COLOR=Red]4   4   3.5 4.5[/COLOR] 3   -   [COLOR=Red]3.5[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]5.5[/COLOR] 5   [COLOR=Red]4[/COLOR]   [COLOR=Red]4  [/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]3.5[/COLOR] 6   4   [COLOR=Red]3.5[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]6[/COLOR]      [COLOR=Red]64[/COLOR]
    
    T.Hawk  [COLOR=Red]3.5 4  [/COLOR] 2.5 [COLOR=Red]6.5[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]3  [/COLOR] 5   4   [COLOR=Red]6[/COLOR]   -   3   4   3.5 4   3   3.5 [COLOR=Red]4[/COLOR]      [COLOR=Red]59.5[/COLOR]
    

    I said I wouldn't nitpick over .5 but why not give the most accurate score you can? :)

    My opinion on the three characters I main. I do think the original chart overall is very good. Most of my disagreements are minor (.5 to 1) but there are a few that I think should have a larger change:

    Hawk vs Dhalsim: I think this slightly in Hawk's favor now compared to ST where it was a suicide matchup. His new dive makes all the difference in this match as he can now pressure with the dive. Dhalsim can standing jab to counter but that shouldn't deter the Hawk player. Keep mixing up the dives because the reward for hitting is equal to getting countered with the jab 4-5 times. And his pokes work well against Dhalsim's limbs, especially low strong.

    Zangief vs Chun Li: This match takes a lot of work by Zangief but it's a fairly even one. This was 4-6 according to the Japanese charts in ST and it's slightly easier in HDR due to Chun Li's nerfs and Zangief's improvements, thus the .5 boost. Still basically the same match up though. The original 3-7 ranking is much too low IMO.

    Zangief vs Dhalsim:
    Zangief's improved lariat helps quite a bit in this match and allows him more chances to get in. Just as in ST, once Zangief gets in, Dhalsim is in big trouble, only now it's easier to get in on HDR. Honestly I'm a bit surprised this match is that much easier now but based on my experience against (good) Dhalsim players, I have to say this match is pretty even now and I'll even give Zangief the slightest of edge now. It's not even close to the hell it used to be in ST.

    Zangief vs Dictator: This was also 6-4 in ST. Dictators buffs don't really make much of a difference in this match so I still see it as 6-4. The original 4-6 ranking is much too low IMO.

    Honda vs Ryu: Fake fireball is ridiculous. 'nuff said.

    Honda vs Cammy: We all know Cammy's troubles vs Honda. Cammy just didn't get enough buffs to make a difference in this match. The original 6.5-3.5 is much too low IMO.
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  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Zangief vs Dhalsim:[/B] Zangief's improved lariat helps quite a bit in this match and allows him more chances to get in. Just as in ST, once Zangief gets in, Dhalsim is in big trouble, only now it's easier to get in on HDR. Honestly I'm a bit surprised this match is that much easier now but based on my experience against (good) Dhalsim players, I have to say this match is pretty even now and I'll even give Zangief the slightest of edge now. It's not even close to the hell it used to be in ST.

    I agree with all your other matchup opinions, except this one. I just don't see how Zangief has a slight advantage vs Dhalsim now, let alone the match being even. The new Lariat's lower hitbox is great, and so is the new cr Fierce, but this is still a very tough match for Zangief. If the Dhalsim player sticks to using the df Fierce and df Strong, which are better at stuffing the Lariat's startup than st Fierce and st Strong and don't get knocked down at all by the new Lariat, this match becomes not that much different than ST.

    I would even argue that Dhalsim has an even greater advantage in HDR as he can now use his Super as a reversal, but couldn't do that in ST. And this is one match that Dhalsim has no problems building meter at all. So if Zangief does get in, and Dhalsim has meter, he's gotta deal with that, but didn't have to worry about it at all in ST. This match is better for Zangief in HDR thanks to a couple of new buffs, but Dhalsim can still find ways around them. After Honda, this is Zangief's toughest match IMO, 6-4 Dhalsim.
  • IrrepressibleGuileIrrepressibleGuile The Power Cosmic Joined: Posts: 726
    You're insane if you think Guile has an advantage in that match. Maybe a 5-5, but there's no way Guile wins it.

    Also I think Guile vs Sim is more like 3-7. Guile vs Blanka and Claw are down as 3.5-6.5 (which sounds about right), but the Sim fight is harder than both of those

    nah man, its quite easy to punish sagat every time he does a tiger shot, cos of the increased recovery, its one of the few matches where it actually pays for guile to be offensive.
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  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    hawk vs guile is more 3-7
    hawk vs sagat is more 4.5-5.5 if you really want to be generous (st rh / cr.rh kills him)
    personally ive never had a problem fighting a vega before so im generally more inclined for the match to be more even but id definitely say 4-6. its no way near as hard as guile
  • Sweet PoisonSweet Poison Knowledge is power. Joined: Posts: 981
    I said I wouldn't nitpick over .5 but why not give the most accurate score you can? :)


    Hawk vs Dhalsim: I think this slightly in Hawk's favor now compared to ST where it was a suicide matchup. His new dive makes all the difference in this match as he can now pressure with the dive. Dhalsim can standing jab to counter but that shouldn't deter the Hawk player. Keep mixing up the dives because the reward for hitting is equal to getting countered with the jab 4-5 times. And his pokes work well against Dhalsim's limbs, especially low strong.

    Zangief vs Dhalsim:[/B] Zangief's improved lariat helps quite a bit in this match and allows him more chances to get in. Just as in ST, once Zangief gets in, Dhalsim is in big trouble, only now it's easier to get in on HDR. Honestly I'm a bit surprised this match is that much easier now but based on my experience against (good) Dhalsim players, I have to say this match is pretty even now and I'll even give Zangief the slightest of edge now. It's not even close to the hell it used to be in ST.

    Thank you Kuroppi for your insight. I know I have said many things regarding Sim and it some times goes on deaf ears but I agree with your assessment of T.Hawk and especially Zangief.
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  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    
    M.Bison 4   4   4   4.5 5   6   5   5   5   6   5   4   4   6   5   -      72.5
    


    I find it strange that Dic went down so drastically in the overall points ranking. Fourth from the bottom for a character that only got buffed seems a bit odd to me. Some of the matchups look a bit skewed too, but i might be putting too much of a personal experience slant on it. It's hard to imagine a matchup at that level when you haven't got all the knowledge, but hey, that's what makes tier lists so contentious, right....

    My take on things for Remixed Dictator:

    Against the shotos, Shotos 6-4 Dictator: Yeah i can see how dic is at a disadvantage, but i would have thought it would be 4.5 or so. Not too much there to complain about, but Dic's invincible DR does give him a tool he didn't have in ST to escape wakeup pressure and play more keepaway games. Crossups and mixups from a close zoning ryu happen less to me in HDR than they did in ST because i can be mobile on wakeup with a DR instead of having to sit and wait in blockstun for a mixup or some pressure after a meaty FB, and ryu has to be more aware of dic's new options.This adds a half point to dic's ranking IMO. Fake fireball is good, but not HUGE in the matchup, it doesn't change the tactics too much outside of baiting headstomps. Also ken's kneebash is not quite so much of a pain in the ass as it used to be, so i would say the same 4.5 ranking should apply, but that's only my personal oppinion. I've seen dic destroyed by good shotos, so i can't complain about 4-6 too strongly.

    Chun & deejay having a slight edge over him is about right too, 4 or 4.5 out of 10 for dictator, giving them the advantage over him seems OK. Those are tough matches. Chun can poke and tick throw the hell out of dic, and her j.Lk is a real pain, and deejay can turtle bison out really well and kills him with crossups/ticks when he gets on the attack up close.

    Blanka, guile, sim, & cammy's ranking all seem to be spot on. I would have thought sagat was at a slight disadvantage to bison with his longer tiger shot recovery, rather than 5-5, but that might just be because sagats rarely give me too much trouble.

    I think the following are the key ones in the new tier list that don't seem to add up for me:

    Hawk 5-5 Dictator: This has got to be worse than evens for dic. Either side can control the match, but Dic has to play it incredibly well and can't affort to mess up at all. Even a traded hit can cost him the match. One mistake by Dic and it's basically game over. While it's not a guaranteed free win anymore, the odds are massively in hawk's favour from just one knockdown, because he can be all over dic in a second, like a fat kid on a smartie. Has to be at least 6-4 in hawks favour.

    Gief: 6-4 Dictator: I put this at evens or maybe slightly above, maybe 5.5-4.5 in gief's favour at best, rather than 6-4 for gief, just because of his lack of mobility in comparison to hawk. All the same issues apply in terms of ticks and 360s, like hawk, once gief is in it's big trouble for dic, but it's harder for him to get into that position and the new DR helps dic out a little sometimes. Gief also can't exploit EVERY single knockdown because he doesn't have a move that can get in on a knocked down dictator from anywhere on the screen instantly like hawk does with that fucking whiffed dive.

    Honda: 6-4 Dictator. This matchup improved drastically for dictator from ST, Standing jab stuffs torpedoes, crusher beats hands clean, DR can escape command ticks, jab torpedo buff doesn't have any effect, ochio nerf and no stored super anymore take away from honda's offense game hugely. I can't see how it's only 4-6 for dic, i may be wrong on this one, and if i am i'll hold my hands up, but i don't see it. Honda may have a very slight edge overall, but 4.5-5.5 in honda's favouror even 5-5 sound more likely to me. Dic has an answer for everything honda can do now if he plays for position and is smart. Sure honda is still scary on offence, but so's dic, and dic has lots more tools now.

    Boxer 6-4 Dictator: It's probably just personal oppinion/lack of top tier competition, but i think this matchup should be even 5-5. Dic's cr.MK keeps out a lot of boxer's rush shenanigans, and it also combos into safe on block Scissor Kicks for knockdowns, Boxer's reversal headbutt isn't safe on block anymore, and the crossup/throw loop is nerfed a bit. Ypu can headstomp for free on a downed boxer, and safe jumps and J.MK are fantastic against him on the deck too, and he's TOD bait if you get them right. 5-5, an even match sounds better to me.

    Claw 4-6 Dictator: Walldive loops STILL give dictator hell. That's the only reason why i would think this is closer to evens than being 6-4 in dic's favour. Both sides have a sweet spot to play from and can f*ck the other side up if they get into it, but vegas walldive loop can easily turn a match around for him if he gets it started.

    Felong 5-5 Dictator. Feilong can really shut dictator down if he gets him in the corner, and a single rekka x3 (blocked or connected) will do this for him from blockstun and pushback. This alone makes the matchup Fei 6-4 Dictator in my oppinion.There's no way it's evens, there just aren't enough good fei players out there who exploit dictator's weaknesses. Anybody who doesn't believe it should try picking dic in a set against Evo/The embrio's fei, and watch what happens.

    I guess it's like Zaspacer posted.
    When it comes to tourney play, usually the top factors in a character's power are:
    A - do they have any TERRIBLE matchups. (which can spell an auto-lose and easy counter picking)...

    Dic has some seriously bad matchups against a lot of the cast, where things can turn into a rape-fest if you get your positioning even a little bit wrong and you have no reliable reversal to escape, outside of a super. He's also susceptible to counter picking from a good few of the cast, so he'll never be top tier. He was always mid tier, upper mid at best in ST, but i don't see how in a game where he got buffs only, and where none of the buffs that the rest of the cast got gave him MAJOR problems, he could drop down so much after the remix.

    The only minor downside to playing with dic in HDR versus ST is the nerfed damage output across the board hurts him a little in some matches like VS Gief where he might only get one good opening, and where a quick stun and a TOD used to win the round but it doesn't necessarily anymore. Despite this, for him to drop down to joint 4th from the bottom after only getting buffs seems a bit wierd.
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  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    I agree with all your other matchup opinions, except this one. I just don't see how Zangief has a slight advantage vs Dhalsim now, let alone the match being even. The new Lariat's lower hitbox is great, and so is the new cr Fierce, but this is still a very tough match for Zangief. If the Dhalsim player sticks to using the df Fierce and df Strong, which are better at stuffing the Lariat's startup than st Fierce and st Strong and don't get knocked down at all by the new Lariat, this match becomes not that much different than ST.

    I would even argue that Dhalsim has an even greater advantage in HDR as he can now use his Super as a reversal, but couldn't do that in ST. And this is one match that Dhalsim has no problems building meter at all. So if Zangief does get in, and Dhalsim has meter, he's gotta deal with that, but didn't have to worry about it at all in ST. This match is better for Zangief in HDR thanks to a couple of new buffs, but Dhalsim can still find ways around them. After Honda, this is Zangief's toughest match IMO, 6-4 Dhalsim.

    Like I said, I'm a bit surprised that I'm having as much success as I am in this matchup because despite the buffs and nerfs, the fundementals of the match have not changed from ST. But I'm basing this off of the Dhalsim players I've faced. And there are a lot of good Dhalsim players online (both American and Japanese). If any more Dhalsim players can offer their input that would be great. I'd like to hear how they rank this match.

    If someone can change my mind, I'll happily change the score on this one. :)
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  • GrogGrog discombobulatingly Joined: Posts: 3,617
    This thread kills me :rofl:
    no one cares syxx

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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Thanks guys. FYI, the characters I had the least info on by far are Bison, Blanka and Sagat. There's no surprise that everyone are surprised at the Bison scores, I had to guess a lot in his matchups or look at the Eventhubs one, just to fill the chart. And I'm very unfamiliar with these characters myself. :sweat:

    I'd appreciate if, when you give a rating, you are explicit in how that rating works. Most of the time we can guess from context, but it's often unclear which side is which.

    Good examples:

    - Ryu 7 - 3 Honda
    - Ryu - Honda is 7-3
    - 7-3, Ryu's advantage


    Bad examples:

    - It's 7-3 Ryu
    - It's 7-3


    I'll update the chart shortly. :china:
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Ken vs. Hawk 8-2? What the hell are you smoking? Fighting Ken is practically fighting Ryu except you can't safe jump him at all. Its 7-3 at worst.

    Ryu vs. Hawk is 6-4 Ryu's favor. Fake FB hardly makes that much of a difference in that fight.

    What about hp srk's new arc? I haven't used ken in awhile, but won't hp srk tame reaction dives and jump jabbing?
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  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    Thanks guys. FYI, the characters I had the least info on by far are Bison, Blanka and Sagat. There's no surprise that everyone are surprised at the Bison scores, I had to guess a lot in his matchups or look at the Eventhubs one, just to fill the chart. And I'm very unfamiliar with these characters myself. :sweat:

    I'm not a Dictator player either so I can't really comment on whether his ratings are accurate or not. But I am also surprised he is so low because I consider him one of the strongest in the game.

    But what I have observed about him is that all his matchups seem to be winnable especially with his "ToD" capabilities. And this seems to be backed up by the chart so far. All of his numbers are fours, fives and sixes so this suggests he doesn't have any tough matches (nor does he have any matches that he is supposed to dominate). Either he is sort of an anomaly and goes against the chart, his ratings are all off, or maybe a lot of us (myself included) are overrating him.
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  • WhatsNext12WhatsNext12 what the prolem is? Joined: Posts: 73
    ^^^any macthup is winnable but to say dic is one of the strongest becuase his TOD is wrong. yea it is very strong and a game winning combo but by all mean is not something to rely on.

    and mackdaddi hit it bout right. cept i think chun and dj may be a little more difficult. def agree about t.hawk, id rather play geif anyday. and maybe this is just personal experince but id say ken is the harder macthup then ryu. no safe jump or meaty attacks means all u can do is cross over and watch it wiff.
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    ^^^any macthup is winnable but to say dic is one of the strongest becuase his TOD is wrong. yea it is very strong and a game winning combo but by all mean is not something to rely on.

    and mackdaddi hit it bout right. cept i think chun and dj may be a little more difficult. def agree about t.hawk, id rather play geif anyday. and maybe this is just personal experince but id say ken is the harder macthup then ryu. no safe jump or meaty attacks means all u can do is cross over and watch it wiff.

    Well, I'm not saying he's a strong character because of his ToD. You're misinterpreting my post.

    It seems like a lot of people consider him a strong character though. I mainly base it on the fact that he doesn't appear to have any "bad" matchups. His ToD allows him to 'steal' a victory at any moment, which is nice for him. A lot of characters don't have that ability at the ease of which he does.
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  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    Ryu: 3.5-6.5 Ryu Adv.

    This match was already 6-4 Ryu, but now it's even harder to deal with corner fireball traps.

    Ken: 4-6 Ken Adv.

    Safer Jab and Strong SRKs, a farther-reaching Fierce SRK, and a more difficult time with corner fireball traps made this one change pretty drastically, in my opinion.

    Guile: 5-5

    This one changed from ST in a lot of smaller ways. Guile has more tools to deal with Chun, and she can't get consistently good damage from her super against Guile. It's still manageable, though.

    E.Honda: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    It's easier for Honda to get in, but I still don't think it's THAT easy. I think there are new things to look for in this match, but I don't think it got any better or worse for either character in the grand scheme of things.

    Dhalsim: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    Chun can't deal as much damage with her super, and her old Neckbreaker was really good in this match, I think. On the other hand, Dhalsim can't combo into super anymore, and the noogie trap is much easier to deal with. So, I think this match stayed in the same place.

    Blanka: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    Well, you can't deal as much super damage anymore, but that's the only thing that I think is harder for Chun. Nothing Blanka got really helped in this match, so while it's easier for Blanka, I think the difference is negligible.

    Zangief: 7-3 Chun Adv.

    I think the way that Chun zones in this match makes it so that Gief's changes aren't that useful. The faster Banishing Punch helps sometimes, but otherwise this matchup hasn't really moved anywhere I think.

    Fei Long: 4-6 Fei Adv.

    Fei's new LK Chicken Wing wrecks this match for Chun, because it's no longer safe to throw fireballs in that range. It's a lot easier for Fei to corner Chun, and she doesn't have a good way out of the corner. Whoever gets their offense going in this match first usually wins. Fei, though, accomplshes it easier than Chun.

    Dee Jay: 5-5, maybe 4-6 Dee Jay Adv.

    This match doesn't feel any worse...but, it sure sounds worse on paper, so I wonder if I just have yet to meet a Dee Jay that can really show me the full extent of how this match has changed? Chun's super was a big deal in the match, and it's weaker now. On top of that, Dee Jay can do his crossup combos easier, and even has a new, easier potential dizzy combo. This match seems like it should be harder for Chun, and yet, I haven't had a harder time with this match in STHD.

    Cammy: 6-4 Chun Adv., maybe 5-5

    I wrote 6-4 Chun, but I don't know much about this match. I know it was considered 6-4 Chun in ST. I think that the new Backfist doesn't help much, and the risker Thrust Kick is bad for Cammy. On the other hand, I haven't played many Cammy players who are awesome with Cannon Drill pressure, so I don't feel like I have enough information to definitively speak on this matchup.

    T.Hawk 6-4 Chun Adv.

    So I know that Hawk players these days seem to think this match is gloriously easy, but that's ridiculous. For one, Hawk Dive is not even dangerous against Chun anymore, because the round is no longer over if you get hit by it. For two, it's easier to escape Hawk's tick throws now, so even if I do mess up big time, I'm not screwed. And finally, you can (and always could) zone Hawk with like three moves: C.Mk, S.Mk, and Chundouken. How this match could be disadvantageous to Chun is beyond me.

    Balrog: 5-5

    All in all, both parties got weaker, but not in any way that changes their overall gameplan in this matchup. So, I think this one stayed about the same.

    Vega: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    This one seems like it should be easier for Chun, but as far as I know, she has no good wall dive counters while grounded, so she still has to risk being knocked down every time if she wants to try and queel wall dive spam. I should also note that I'm TERRIBLE at this matchup, so I'm open to being completely wrong about this.

    Sagat: 4-6 Sagat Adv.

    I think the dynamic of this match has changed a lot, but it still remains bad for Chun. You can now jump in on Sagat (thank God), but that's about all that got better. The super deals inconsistent damage to Sagat, and while it's harder to deal with corner fireball traps from Ryu and Ken, it's now virtually impossible against a Sagat player that's paying attention. So, in the end, while I think the way the match plays out is different, Sagat still has the advantage.


    M.Bison: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    I think this is mostly the same (that is, just plain bad for Bison), but I wonder if it's gotten better enough to move from 7-3 to 6-4? Devil's Reverse is pretty awesome as an escape, and Chun's Lower priority Lightning Legs allows Bison to hit Chun out of them clean with Psycho Crusher and Scissor Kicks. Granted, it's not consistent, but it trades/wins a LOT more often, so even if you accidentally do a Psycho Crusher/Scissor Kicks right into Chun's Lightning Legs, it has a much better chance of working out for Bison, now.
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    I just updated the first post with an updated chart (haven't taken skankin garbage's most recent post into account yet). Damn this takes a long time. Here's the changelist:
    Guile v Sagat
    Orig chart: 4-6
    IrrepressibleGuile: 6-4
    Axel Kelly: "Maybe 5-5, no way Guile wins it"
    AudioCG: "In Guile's favor or dead even"
    # New rating: 5-5


    Fei v Guile
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Coth_X: "More even than that" (4.5-5.5 ?)
    TecmoSuperBowl: "At least even, if not in Fei's favor" (5-5 to 5.5-4.5)
    Aqua Snake: 5-5
    # New rating: 5-5


    M.Bison v Fei
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Percy: "More in Fei's favour"
    Aqua Snake: 5-5
    Mackdaddi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    Guile v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Axel Kelly: 3-7
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Cammy v Guile
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Silver Rain 007: 3.5-6.5
    Noriega: 3.5-6.5
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Cammy v Honda
    Orig chart: 3.5-6.5
    Silver Rain 007: 3-7 (or worse)
    Noriega: 2-8
    Kuroppi: 2-8
    # New rating: 3-7


    Fei v Chun
    Orig chart: 4.5-6.5
    skankin garbage: 6-4
    Aqua Snake: 6.5-3.5
    # New rating: 6-4


    Chun v Ken
    Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
    skankin garbage: 4-6
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    Zangief v Ryu
    Orig chart: 5-5
    rcaido: 4.5-5.5
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Zangief v Ken
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Zangief v Guile
    Orig chart: 3-7
    rcaido: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 3.5-6.5
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Zangief v Cammy
    Orig chart: 3-7
    rcaido: 4-6
    Noriega: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Zangief v Fei
    Orig chart: 3-7
    rcaido: 5-5
    Aqua Snake: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Zangief v Deejay
    Orig chart: 4-6
    rcaido: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 3.5-6.5
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Zangief v Vega
    Orig chart: 4-6
    rcaido: 3-7 (unsure)
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # Stay at 4-6


    Honda v Ryu
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 1.5-8.5
    EA Megaman: 2-8 (or worse)
    blitzfu: 3-7 to 2-8
    # New rating: 2.5-7.5


    Honda v Ken
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 2.5-7.5
    blitzfu: 3-7 to 2-8
    studtrooper: "as hard as Ryu, Honda is fucked vs a good Ken"
    # New rating: 2.5-7.5


    Dhalsim v Ryu
    Orig chart: 6-4
    Sweet Poison: 5-5
    blitzfu: 6-4
    # Stay at 6-4


    Dhalsim v Deejay
    Orig chart (BruceLB): 6-4
    Sweet Poison: 5.5-4.5
    # Stay at 6-4


    Dhalsim v Balrog
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Sweet Poison: 4-6
    studtrooper: 5-5 to 6-4
    1hitparry: 5-5
    blitzfu: 6-4
    # Stay at 5-5


    Balrog v Ken
    Orig chart (damdai): 6-4
    1hitparry: 5-5 or 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 5.5-4.5


    Ryu v Cammy
    Orig chart: 6.5-3.5
    Noriega: 7-3
    # Stay at 6.5-3.5 until more opinions...


    Ken v Cammy
    Orig chart: 6.5-3.5
    Noriega: 7-3
    # Stay at 6.5-3.5 until more opinions...


    Fei v Cammy
    Orig chart (detailed below): 4.5-5.5
    -Noriega: 4-6
    -Aqua Snake: 4.5-5.5
    -Eventhubs guy: 5-5
    -Sirlin: "About even"
    Noriega (new rating): 2-8 or 2.5-7.5
    Aqua Snake (same rating): 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 4-6


    Balrog v Cammy
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Noriega: 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    Vega v Cammy
    Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
    Noriega: 5-5
    # New rating: 5-5


    Sagat v Cammy
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Noriega: 5.5-4.5
    # New rating: 5.5-4.5


    Ken v Vega
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Honda v Balrog
    Orig chart (Thelo): 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 5-5
    EA Megaman: 5-5 (agreed with orig chart)
    # Stay at 5-5


    M.Bison v Ryu
    Orig chart (damdai): 4-6
    VirtuaFighterFour: 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    M.Bison v Honda
    Orig chart: 4-6
    VirtuaFighterFour: 4.5-5.5
    Thelo: 4.5-5.5 (recently changed my mind)
    Kuroppi: 4.5-5.5
    Mackdaddi: 4.5-5.5 to 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    M.Bison v Zangief
    Orig chart (damdai): 6-4
    VirtuaFighterFour: 4.5-5.5
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    Mackdaddi: 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    M.Bison v Guile
    Orig chart: 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 5.5-4.5
    # New rating: 5.5-4.5


    M.Bison v T.Hawk
    Orig chart: 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 7-3
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    Mackdaddi: 4-6
    # Stay at 5-5


    M.Bison v Cammy
    Orig chart: 6-4
    Noriega: 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 8-2
    # Stay at 6-4


    T.Hawk v Ryu:
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 3-7
    JigglyNorris: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    T.Hawk v Ken:
    Orig chart: 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 2-8
    JigglyNorris: 3-7 "at worst"
    # New rating: 3-7


    T.Hawk v Chun:
    Orig chart (detailed below): 5.5-4.5
    -Zass: 4-6 ## removed vote
    -JigglyNorris: 4.5-5.5
    -Eventhubs guy: 5-5
    -skankin garbage: 6-4 (?)
    -Ouroborus: "Chun's worst matchup"
    -gridman: "Hawk splash still kills Chun Li"
    VirtuaFighterFour: 6.5-3.5
    # Stay at 5.5-4.5 for now


    Blanka v Deejay
    Orig chart (BruceLB): 4-6
    Empirion: 3-7
    # Stay at 4-6 for now


    Blanka v Balrog
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Empirion: 3-7
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Blanka v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
    Empirion: 4-6
    # New rating: 5-5


    Blanka v Cammy
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    Empirion: 4-6
    Noriega: 6-4 (unsure)
    # Stay at 4.5-5.5


    Blanka v Fei
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    Empirion: 4-6
    Aqua Snake: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Blanka v Chun
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    Empirion: 4-6
    # Stay at 4.5-5.5 for now


    Blanka v Sagat
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Empirion: 4-6
    # Stay at 5-5 for now


    T.Hawk v Fei
    Orig chart (JigglyNorris?): 4-6
    Aqua Snake: 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    Fei v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    Aqua Snake: 3.5-6.5
    # New rating: 4-6


    Honda v Deejay
    Orig chart (Thelo): 3.5-6.5
    Kuroppi: 3-7
    # Stay at 3.5-6.5


    Honda v Zangief
    Orig chart (Thelo): 7.5-2.5
    Kuroppi: 6.5-3.5 (!)
    # Stay at 7.5-2.5


    Zangief v Chun
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 4-6


    T.Hawk v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 6-4
    Sweet Poison: 6-4 (agree with Kuroppi)
    # New rating: 6-4


    T.Hawk v Blanka
    Orig chart (JigglyNorris?): 3.5-6.5
    Kuroppi: 3-7
    # Stay at 3.5-6.5 for now


    Zangief v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 5.5-4.5 (!)
    Sweet Poison: 5.5-4.5 (agree with Kuroppi)
    blitzfu: 4-6
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    T.Hawk v Guile
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    JigglyNorris: 4-6
    gridman: 3-7
    # Stay at 4-6


    T.Hawk v Sagat
    Orig chart: 3.5-6.5
    Kuroppi: 3.5-6.5
    gridman: 4.5-5.5
    # Stay at 3.5-6.5 for now


    T.Hawk v Vega
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 3-7
    gridman: 4-6
    # Stay at 3-7 for now


    M.Bison v Balrog
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Mackdaddi: 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • 1hitparry1hitparry Scrubasaurus Joined: Posts: 1,516
    Thanks for updating and taking our input in to consideration. Looking at how many people have contributed you've definitely put a lot of work into compiling everything into a neat chart. Also, my rating on Ken vs. Boxer is up for debate. I personally get stuck in the same situation over and over again so there might be something I'm overlooking.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    I'm not a Dictator player either so I can't really comment on whether his ratings are accurate or not. But I am also surprised he is so low because I consider him one of the strongest in the game....all his matchups seem to be winnable especially with his "ToD" capabilities......Either he is sort of an anomaly and goes against the chart, his ratings are all off, or maybe a lot of us (myself included) are overrating him.

    I think what throws him in the rankings is that he really lives or dies off of his specific advantages and disadvantages in a match, and the swing between the two is much more marked than the rest of the cast. He's the exact opposite of the definition of an "all rounder". He doesn't have any really good matchups, or any really bad ones, just really good and really REALLY bad situations that he can get himself into in each one, which is why it's tough to classify him

    Take ryu as an example. I consider ryu to be the best all round character in the game. He's not phenomenal at anything in particular, he has some strengths and some weaknesses, but he's pretty much comfortable playing in attack, defence, zoning, being zoned....wherever. He's a workhorse, he plugs away and earns his wins without anything too flashy, but it's also tough put him in a REALLY sticky situation.

    Dictator, on the other hand, is kill or be killed. It's all or nothing with him, so if a smart player who knows how and when to use his normals and counters, and especially has a handle on his opponent's tactics and gameplan uses him he can terorize a lot of the cast and do a lot of tricky, flashy, shenanigan type stuff that you really have to be on your toes for, because there's always the possibility of him getting in and getting a window for a TOD combo and it's game over. On the other hand, if somebody knows how to play against him and knows how to exploit his weaknesses (vulnerable to crossups, lack of attacking reversals, weak grounded anti air game, useless in the corner) he can get fairly heavily hammered and there often isn't a thing he can do about it.

    To put it another way, i think he's mid tier because he has phenomenal offence capabilities, that are easily near the top of the pack when he's played on the attack by a sharp, matchup savvy player, but he also has massive holes in his defensive game that other characters don't have that balance that out. For example, He has no reversal, so you can jump in on him all day long. There's only one other character in the game who has the same issue (sim) and HE has one of the best defensive and keepaway games in the game.

    I've had days where nobody can touch me with dictator, and i feel like he's the best character in the game by a mile, and i've had days where i get so badly messed up and can do nothing about it that i think i'm wasting my time and will never be able to compete at a higher level with him purely because i'm battling against a set of stupidly designed character limitations. I doubt there are too many other choices of main that carry the same issue.
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  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    Awesome work, Thelo!
    Shhh... ST in da house!

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  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Sorry but that match guile vs rog is 7-3 in rogs favor. Vega is like 8-2 vs guile in claws favor. and the chun vs guile is 6-4 in chuns favor. All of those characters have to tools to counter and rape guile. guile vs ryu is not 5.5 its 6-4 in ryus favor
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    ^^^any macthup is winnable but to say dic is one of the strongest becuase his TOD is wrong. yea it is very strong and a game winning combo but by all mean is not something to rely on.
    Except that almost every top Dictator in Japan learned to play this exact way for ST (until Taira came long in the last few years). Just dig through YuuVega footage. He is known in Japan for having the BEST okizeme of anyone who plays Super Turbo. He wins more matches using Dictator's cross ups (and DJ's and Claw's crossups as well) than all other players. YuuVega even jumps RIGHT AT people to land a huge combo because he knows that the risk/reward is heavily in Dictator's favor. He also sits still doing nothing for half of the round sometimes just waiting for that one chance to land a huge combo because that it his ENTIRE game plan. Don't believe me?









    Just trawl through YouTube for matches of YuuVega to see just how amazingly effective relying on huge combos and dizzy can be for Dictator.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • xcfriscoxcfrisco Joined: Posts: 498
    I multiplied each character's match up number by their total/(75), then got new totals for each character. Thus, these numbers improve the tier rating of a character that has good match ups versus high-tier characters and make good match ups versus low-tiers worth less. This isn't completely accurate, as the formula should technically use its own result to determine the final values, but this is it after one iteration.

    Vega: 82.36
    Ryu: 82.23
    Balrog: 82.13
    Dhalsim: 78.83
    Dee Jay: 78.56
    Chun Li: 78.24
    E. Honda: 77.11
    Ken: 76.28
    Sagat: 75.42
    Guile: 75.32
    M. Bison: 72.13
    Blanka: 71.98
    Cammy: 71.45
    Fei Long: 67.58
    T. Hawk: 60.50
    Zangief: 58.05

    That's really cool. I thinks it weird that Vega is always ranked so high but at most majors its Ryu/Balrog cleaning house.
  • SG10xSG10x Blanka Sucks Joined: Posts: 402
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B

    Blanka 3 4 4 4.5 - 7 5 5 6.5 4.5 4 3 2 4 4 5


    I don't know why, but alot of your match ups with Blanka in the initial chart were higher than they should be, a lot higher in some cases. I know you compiled it off a list you saw from other players, but I can't understand why they came out to be so high. I'd like to see what other players think
  • SG10xSG10x Blanka Sucks Joined: Posts: 402
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B

    Blanka 3 4 4 4.5 - 7 5 5 6.5 4.5 4 3 2 4 4 5


    I don't know why, but alot of your match ups with Blanka in the initial chart were higher than they should be, a lot higher in some cases. I know you compiled it off a list you saw from other players, but I can't understand why they came out to be so high. I'd like to see what other players think
  • WhatsNext12WhatsNext12 what the prolem is? Joined: Posts: 73
    Except that almost every top Dictator in Japan learned to play this exact way for ST (until Taira came long in the last few years). Just dig through YuuVega footage. He is known in Japan for having the BEST okizeme of anyone who plays Super Turbo. He wins more matches using Dictator's cross ups (and DJ's and Claw's crossups as well) than all other players. YuuVega even jumps RIGHT AT people to land a huge combo because he knows that the risk/reward is heavily in Dictator's favor. He also sits still doing nothing for half of the round sometimes just waiting for that one chance to land a huge combo because that it his ENTIRE game plan. Don't believe me?









    Just trawl through YouTube for matches of YuuVega to see just how amazingly effective relying on huge combos and dizzy can be for Dictator.

    yes ive seen all those. i know yuuvega is the master TOD but often as much the risk dosent pay off. but imo taira is the better bison and does not rely on the TOD (u kinda already said this).
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,329
    I just updated the first post with an updated chart (haven't taken skankin garbage's most recent post into account yet). Damn this takes a long time. Here's the changelist:

    Zangief v Fei

    Orig chart: 3-7
    rcaido: 5-5
    Aqua Snake: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6

    Fei v Cammy
    Orig chart (detailed below): 4.5-5.5
    -Noriega: 4-6
    -Aqua Snake: 4.5-5.5
    -Eventhubs guy: 5-5
    -Sirlin: "About even"
    Noriega (new rating): 2-8 or 2.5-7.5
    Aqua Snake (same rating): 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 4-6

    Wow Thelo, you've outdone yourself! Good stuff!

    I thought I should point out you had me down in the Zangief vs. Fei matchup as 7-3, but I said 6-4 Fei's favor. Of course there was SO many numbers you were trying to compile so of course it was a small error. :smile:

    And Norieaga I have to play you again. Fei vs. Cammy 2.5-7.5? :looney:

    I know Cammy has a slight advantage against Fei, but that high?!

    I haven't played you in a long time so I'd love for you to show me that Fei has it that bad. :wink:
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Just dig through YuuVega footage. He is known in Japan for having the BEST okizeme of anyone who plays Super Turbo.

    Not everyone speaks japanophile.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,223
    And Norieaga I have to play you again. Fei vs. Cammy 2.5-7.5? :looney:

    I know Cammy has a slight advantage against Fei, but that high?!

    I haven't played you in a long time so I'd love for you to show me that Fei has it that bad. :wink:
    Sure, I'd be up for that! I consider facing Fei my best matchup and the numbers reflect that. Reasons for my high advantage towards Cammy:

    - Fei can be thrown easy after a light CW and proper spacing
    - CW goes over drill, equals free throw
    - Fei's hitbox is good, I don't have trouble landing my cross-up as I do on another characters
    - st. fierce is useful
    - I can hooligan whiffed flame kicks

    If there's anything I fear in this match its the Rekka Ken. However, I pretty much spend the whole matchup looking for that move so I'm used to it. But its very deadly, one of the reasons I think Fei shits on Cammy otherwise.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • DecoyDecoy You better block. Joined: Posts: 497
    Here is my take on these matchups.

    CHAR PTS REASON
    Ryu 4 Fake fireball makes it MUCH harder to get in.
    Ken 4.5 C. MP is very very good vs Blanka.
    E. Honda 4.5 Down back all day.
    Chun Li 4.5 J. LK and stored super.
    Blanka
    Zangief 7 Can keep him at bay all day with 101 anti-airs.
    Guile 6.5 Too much work for Guile to keep a good Blanka out.
    Dhalsim 5 Easier electric knockdowns help Blanka get in.
    T.Hawk 7 (see Zangief strat)
    Cammy 5.5 Hops negate her attacks.
    Fei Long 4.5 J. LK and C. FP work wonders.
    Dee Jay 3 Too many good normals.
    Balrog 3 Too many good normals.
    Vega 3.5 Crouch + poke = win.
    Sagat 5 His hitboxes changed and so has this matchup.
    M. Bison 6 101 counters to anything he does.

    TOTAL: 73.5
    XBL Tag: Real Decoy
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