Consensus matchup chart

2456789

Comments

  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Ken vs. Hawk 8-2? What the hell are you smoking? Fighting Ken is practically fighting Ryu except you can't safe jump him at all. Its 7-3 at worst.

    Ryu vs. Hawk is 6-4 Ryu's favor. Fake FB hardly makes that much of a difference in that fight.

    Did you really have to open that door jiggly, we all know what's gonna happen.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    original wrote:
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    
    
    E.Honda 3   3   -   4.5 6   7.5 4   5.5 7.5 [COLOR=Black]6.5[/COLOR] 6.5 [COLOR=Black]3.5[/COLOR] 5   6   4.5 6      79
    
    Zangief 5   4.5 2.5 3   3   -   3   4   5   3   3   4   6   4   3   4      57
    
    T.Hawk  4.5 5   2.5 5.5 3.5 5   4   4   -   3   4   3.5 4   3   3.5 5      60
    
    Modified wrote:
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    
    E.Honda [COLOR=Red]1.5 2.5[/COLOR] -   4.5 6   [COLOR=Red]6.5[/COLOR] 4   5.5 7.5 [COLOR=Red]8[/COLOR]   6.5 [COLOR=Red]3[/COLOR]   5   6   4.5 [COLOR=Red]5.5[/COLOR]    [COLOR=Red]76.5[/COLOR]
    
    Zangief [COLOR=Red]4   4   3.5 4.5[/COLOR] 3   -   [COLOR=Red]3.5[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]5.5[/COLOR] 5   [COLOR=Red]4[/COLOR]   [COLOR=Red]4  [/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]3.5[/COLOR] 6   4   [COLOR=Red]3.5[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]6[/COLOR]      [COLOR=Red]64[/COLOR]
    
    T.Hawk  [COLOR=Red]3.5 4  [/COLOR] 2.5 [COLOR=Red]6.5[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]3  [/COLOR] 5   4   [COLOR=Red]6[/COLOR]   -   3   4   3.5 4   3   3.5 [COLOR=Red]4[/COLOR]      [COLOR=Red]59.5[/COLOR]
    

    I said I wouldn't nitpick over .5 but why not give the most accurate score you can? :)

    My opinion on the three characters I main. I do think the original chart overall is very good. Most of my disagreements are minor (.5 to 1) but there are a few that I think should have a larger change:

    Hawk vs Dhalsim: I think this slightly in Hawk's favor now compared to ST where it was a suicide matchup. His new dive makes all the difference in this match as he can now pressure with the dive. Dhalsim can standing jab to counter but that shouldn't deter the Hawk player. Keep mixing up the dives because the reward for hitting is equal to getting countered with the jab 4-5 times. And his pokes work well against Dhalsim's limbs, especially low strong.

    Zangief vs Chun Li: This match takes a lot of work by Zangief but it's a fairly even one. This was 4-6 according to the Japanese charts in ST and it's slightly easier in HDR due to Chun Li's nerfs and Zangief's improvements, thus the .5 boost. Still basically the same match up though. The original 3-7 ranking is much too low IMO.

    Zangief vs Dhalsim:
    Zangief's improved lariat helps quite a bit in this match and allows him more chances to get in. Just as in ST, once Zangief gets in, Dhalsim is in big trouble, only now it's easier to get in on HDR. Honestly I'm a bit surprised this match is that much easier now but based on my experience against (good) Dhalsim players, I have to say this match is pretty even now and I'll even give Zangief the slightest of edge now. It's not even close to the hell it used to be in ST.

    Zangief vs Dictator: This was also 6-4 in ST. Dictators buffs don't really make much of a difference in this match so I still see it as 6-4. The original 4-6 ranking is much too low IMO.

    Honda vs Ryu: Fake fireball is ridiculous. 'nuff said.

    Honda vs Cammy: We all know Cammy's troubles vs Honda. Cammy just didn't get enough buffs to make a difference in this match. The original 6.5-3.5 is much too low IMO.
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Zangief vs Dhalsim:[/B] Zangief's improved lariat helps quite a bit in this match and allows him more chances to get in. Just as in ST, once Zangief gets in, Dhalsim is in big trouble, only now it's easier to get in on HDR. Honestly I'm a bit surprised this match is that much easier now but based on my experience against (good) Dhalsim players, I have to say this match is pretty even now and I'll even give Zangief the slightest of edge now. It's not even close to the hell it used to be in ST.

    I agree with all your other matchup opinions, except this one. I just don't see how Zangief has a slight advantage vs Dhalsim now, let alone the match being even. The new Lariat's lower hitbox is great, and so is the new cr Fierce, but this is still a very tough match for Zangief. If the Dhalsim player sticks to using the df Fierce and df Strong, which are better at stuffing the Lariat's startup than st Fierce and st Strong and don't get knocked down at all by the new Lariat, this match becomes not that much different than ST.

    I would even argue that Dhalsim has an even greater advantage in HDR as he can now use his Super as a reversal, but couldn't do that in ST. And this is one match that Dhalsim has no problems building meter at all. So if Zangief does get in, and Dhalsim has meter, he's gotta deal with that, but didn't have to worry about it at all in ST. This match is better for Zangief in HDR thanks to a couple of new buffs, but Dhalsim can still find ways around them. After Honda, this is Zangief's toughest match IMO, 6-4 Dhalsim.
  • IrrepressibleGuileIrrepressibleGuile The Power Cosmic Joined: Posts: 726
    You're insane if you think Guile has an advantage in that match. Maybe a 5-5, but there's no way Guile wins it.

    Also I think Guile vs Sim is more like 3-7. Guile vs Blanka and Claw are down as 3.5-6.5 (which sounds about right), but the Sim fight is harder than both of those

    nah man, its quite easy to punish sagat every time he does a tiger shot, cos of the increased recovery, its one of the few matches where it actually pays for guile to be offensive.
    Funniest Rage Quit Ever:
    HDR Hate Mail Collection:
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    hawk vs guile is more 3-7
    hawk vs sagat is more 4.5-5.5 if you really want to be generous (st rh / cr.rh kills him)
    personally ive never had a problem fighting a vega before so im generally more inclined for the match to be more even but id definitely say 4-6. its no way near as hard as guile
  • Sweet PoisonSweet Poison Knowledge is power. Joined: Posts: 981
    I said I wouldn't nitpick over .5 but why not give the most accurate score you can? :)


    Hawk vs Dhalsim: I think this slightly in Hawk's favor now compared to ST where it was a suicide matchup. His new dive makes all the difference in this match as he can now pressure with the dive. Dhalsim can standing jab to counter but that shouldn't deter the Hawk player. Keep mixing up the dives because the reward for hitting is equal to getting countered with the jab 4-5 times. And his pokes work well against Dhalsim's limbs, especially low strong.

    Zangief vs Dhalsim:[/B] Zangief's improved lariat helps quite a bit in this match and allows him more chances to get in. Just as in ST, once Zangief gets in, Dhalsim is in big trouble, only now it's easier to get in on HDR. Honestly I'm a bit surprised this match is that much easier now but based on my experience against (good) Dhalsim players, I have to say this match is pretty even now and I'll even give Zangief the slightest of edge now. It's not even close to the hell it used to be in ST.

    Thank you Kuroppi for your insight. I know I have said many things regarding Sim and it some times goes on deaf ears but I agree with your assessment of T.Hawk and especially Zangief.
    My hunger's never satisfied. Knowledge is what fuels me.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B    Total
    
    M.Bison 4   4   4   4.5 5   6   5   5   5   6   5   4   4   6   5   -      72.5
    


    I find it strange that Dic went down so drastically in the overall points ranking. Fourth from the bottom for a character that only got buffed seems a bit odd to me. Some of the matchups look a bit skewed too, but i might be putting too much of a personal experience slant on it. It's hard to imagine a matchup at that level when you haven't got all the knowledge, but hey, that's what makes tier lists so contentious, right....

    My take on things for Remixed Dictator:

    Against the shotos, Shotos 6-4 Dictator: Yeah i can see how dic is at a disadvantage, but i would have thought it would be 4.5 or so. Not too much there to complain about, but Dic's invincible DR does give him a tool he didn't have in ST to escape wakeup pressure and play more keepaway games. Crossups and mixups from a close zoning ryu happen less to me in HDR than they did in ST because i can be mobile on wakeup with a DR instead of having to sit and wait in blockstun for a mixup or some pressure after a meaty FB, and ryu has to be more aware of dic's new options.This adds a half point to dic's ranking IMO. Fake fireball is good, but not HUGE in the matchup, it doesn't change the tactics too much outside of baiting headstomps. Also ken's kneebash is not quite so much of a pain in the ass as it used to be, so i would say the same 4.5 ranking should apply, but that's only my personal oppinion. I've seen dic destroyed by good shotos, so i can't complain about 4-6 too strongly.

    Chun & deejay having a slight edge over him is about right too, 4 or 4.5 out of 10 for dictator, giving them the advantage over him seems OK. Those are tough matches. Chun can poke and tick throw the hell out of dic, and her j.Lk is a real pain, and deejay can turtle bison out really well and kills him with crossups/ticks when he gets on the attack up close.

    Blanka, guile, sim, & cammy's ranking all seem to be spot on. I would have thought sagat was at a slight disadvantage to bison with his longer tiger shot recovery, rather than 5-5, but that might just be because sagats rarely give me too much trouble.

    I think the following are the key ones in the new tier list that don't seem to add up for me:

    Hawk 5-5 Dictator: This has got to be worse than evens for dic. Either side can control the match, but Dic has to play it incredibly well and can't affort to mess up at all. Even a traded hit can cost him the match. One mistake by Dic and it's basically game over. While it's not a guaranteed free win anymore, the odds are massively in hawk's favour from just one knockdown, because he can be all over dic in a second, like a fat kid on a smartie. Has to be at least 6-4 in hawks favour.

    Gief: 6-4 Dictator: I put this at evens or maybe slightly above, maybe 5.5-4.5 in gief's favour at best, rather than 6-4 for gief, just because of his lack of mobility in comparison to hawk. All the same issues apply in terms of ticks and 360s, like hawk, once gief is in it's big trouble for dic, but it's harder for him to get into that position and the new DR helps dic out a little sometimes. Gief also can't exploit EVERY single knockdown because he doesn't have a move that can get in on a knocked down dictator from anywhere on the screen instantly like hawk does with that fucking whiffed dive.

    Honda: 6-4 Dictator. This matchup improved drastically for dictator from ST, Standing jab stuffs torpedoes, crusher beats hands clean, DR can escape command ticks, jab torpedo buff doesn't have any effect, ochio nerf and no stored super anymore take away from honda's offense game hugely. I can't see how it's only 4-6 for dic, i may be wrong on this one, and if i am i'll hold my hands up, but i don't see it. Honda may have a very slight edge overall, but 4.5-5.5 in honda's favouror even 5-5 sound more likely to me. Dic has an answer for everything honda can do now if he plays for position and is smart. Sure honda is still scary on offence, but so's dic, and dic has lots more tools now.

    Boxer 6-4 Dictator: It's probably just personal oppinion/lack of top tier competition, but i think this matchup should be even 5-5. Dic's cr.MK keeps out a lot of boxer's rush shenanigans, and it also combos into safe on block Scissor Kicks for knockdowns, Boxer's reversal headbutt isn't safe on block anymore, and the crossup/throw loop is nerfed a bit. Ypu can headstomp for free on a downed boxer, and safe jumps and J.MK are fantastic against him on the deck too, and he's TOD bait if you get them right. 5-5, an even match sounds better to me.

    Claw 4-6 Dictator: Walldive loops STILL give dictator hell. That's the only reason why i would think this is closer to evens than being 6-4 in dic's favour. Both sides have a sweet spot to play from and can f*ck the other side up if they get into it, but vegas walldive loop can easily turn a match around for him if he gets it started.

    Felong 5-5 Dictator. Feilong can really shut dictator down if he gets him in the corner, and a single rekka x3 (blocked or connected) will do this for him from blockstun and pushback. This alone makes the matchup Fei 6-4 Dictator in my oppinion.There's no way it's evens, there just aren't enough good fei players out there who exploit dictator's weaknesses. Anybody who doesn't believe it should try picking dic in a set against Evo/The embrio's fei, and watch what happens.

    I guess it's like Zaspacer posted.
    When it comes to tourney play, usually the top factors in a character's power are:
    A - do they have any TERRIBLE matchups. (which can spell an auto-lose and easy counter picking)...

    Dic has some seriously bad matchups against a lot of the cast, where things can turn into a rape-fest if you get your positioning even a little bit wrong and you have no reliable reversal to escape, outside of a super. He's also susceptible to counter picking from a good few of the cast, so he'll never be top tier. He was always mid tier, upper mid at best in ST, but i don't see how in a game where he got buffs only, and where none of the buffs that the rest of the cast got gave him MAJOR problems, he could drop down so much after the remix.

    The only minor downside to playing with dic in HDR versus ST is the nerfed damage output across the board hurts him a little in some matches like VS Gief where he might only get one good opening, and where a quick stun and a TOD used to win the round but it doesn't necessarily anymore. Despite this, for him to drop down to joint 4th from the bottom after only getting buffs seems a bit wierd.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    I agree with all your other matchup opinions, except this one. I just don't see how Zangief has a slight advantage vs Dhalsim now, let alone the match being even. The new Lariat's lower hitbox is great, and so is the new cr Fierce, but this is still a very tough match for Zangief. If the Dhalsim player sticks to using the df Fierce and df Strong, which are better at stuffing the Lariat's startup than st Fierce and st Strong and don't get knocked down at all by the new Lariat, this match becomes not that much different than ST.

    I would even argue that Dhalsim has an even greater advantage in HDR as he can now use his Super as a reversal, but couldn't do that in ST. And this is one match that Dhalsim has no problems building meter at all. So if Zangief does get in, and Dhalsim has meter, he's gotta deal with that, but didn't have to worry about it at all in ST. This match is better for Zangief in HDR thanks to a couple of new buffs, but Dhalsim can still find ways around them. After Honda, this is Zangief's toughest match IMO, 6-4 Dhalsim.

    Like I said, I'm a bit surprised that I'm having as much success as I am in this matchup because despite the buffs and nerfs, the fundementals of the match have not changed from ST. But I'm basing this off of the Dhalsim players I've faced. And there are a lot of good Dhalsim players online (both American and Japanese). If any more Dhalsim players can offer their input that would be great. I'd like to hear how they rank this match.

    If someone can change my mind, I'll happily change the score on this one. :)
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • GrogGrog discombobulatingly Joined: Posts: 3,617
    This thread kills me :rofl:
    no one cares syxx

    www.dontblowthis.com
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Thanks guys. FYI, the characters I had the least info on by far are Bison, Blanka and Sagat. There's no surprise that everyone are surprised at the Bison scores, I had to guess a lot in his matchups or look at the Eventhubs one, just to fill the chart. And I'm very unfamiliar with these characters myself. :sweat:

    I'd appreciate if, when you give a rating, you are explicit in how that rating works. Most of the time we can guess from context, but it's often unclear which side is which.

    Good examples:

    - Ryu 7 - 3 Honda
    - Ryu - Honda is 7-3
    - 7-3, Ryu's advantage


    Bad examples:

    - It's 7-3 Ryu
    - It's 7-3


    I'll update the chart shortly. :china:
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Ken vs. Hawk 8-2? What the hell are you smoking? Fighting Ken is practically fighting Ryu except you can't safe jump him at all. Its 7-3 at worst.

    Ryu vs. Hawk is 6-4 Ryu's favor. Fake FB hardly makes that much of a difference in that fight.

    What about hp srk's new arc? I haven't used ken in awhile, but won't hp srk tame reaction dives and jump jabbing?
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    Thanks guys. FYI, the characters I had the least info on by far are Bison, Blanka and Sagat. There's no surprise that everyone are surprised at the Bison scores, I had to guess a lot in his matchups or look at the Eventhubs one, just to fill the chart. And I'm very unfamiliar with these characters myself. :sweat:

    I'm not a Dictator player either so I can't really comment on whether his ratings are accurate or not. But I am also surprised he is so low because I consider him one of the strongest in the game.

    But what I have observed about him is that all his matchups seem to be winnable especially with his "ToD" capabilities. And this seems to be backed up by the chart so far. All of his numbers are fours, fives and sixes so this suggests he doesn't have any tough matches (nor does he have any matches that he is supposed to dominate). Either he is sort of an anomaly and goes against the chart, his ratings are all off, or maybe a lot of us (myself included) are overrating him.
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • WhatsNext12WhatsNext12 what the prolem is? Joined: Posts: 73
    ^^^any macthup is winnable but to say dic is one of the strongest becuase his TOD is wrong. yea it is very strong and a game winning combo but by all mean is not something to rely on.

    and mackdaddi hit it bout right. cept i think chun and dj may be a little more difficult. def agree about t.hawk, id rather play geif anyday. and maybe this is just personal experince but id say ken is the harder macthup then ryu. no safe jump or meaty attacks means all u can do is cross over and watch it wiff.
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    ^^^any macthup is winnable but to say dic is one of the strongest becuase his TOD is wrong. yea it is very strong and a game winning combo but by all mean is not something to rely on.

    and mackdaddi hit it bout right. cept i think chun and dj may be a little more difficult. def agree about t.hawk, id rather play geif anyday. and maybe this is just personal experince but id say ken is the harder macthup then ryu. no safe jump or meaty attacks means all u can do is cross over and watch it wiff.

    Well, I'm not saying he's a strong character because of his ToD. You're misinterpreting my post.

    It seems like a lot of people consider him a strong character though. I mainly base it on the fact that he doesn't appear to have any "bad" matchups. His ToD allows him to 'steal' a victory at any moment, which is nice for him. A lot of characters don't have that ability at the ease of which he does.
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    Ryu: 3.5-6.5 Ryu Adv.

    This match was already 6-4 Ryu, but now it's even harder to deal with corner fireball traps.

    Ken: 4-6 Ken Adv.

    Safer Jab and Strong SRKs, a farther-reaching Fierce SRK, and a more difficult time with corner fireball traps made this one change pretty drastically, in my opinion.

    Guile: 5-5

    This one changed from ST in a lot of smaller ways. Guile has more tools to deal with Chun, and she can't get consistently good damage from her super against Guile. It's still manageable, though.

    E.Honda: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    It's easier for Honda to get in, but I still don't think it's THAT easy. I think there are new things to look for in this match, but I don't think it got any better or worse for either character in the grand scheme of things.

    Dhalsim: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    Chun can't deal as much damage with her super, and her old Neckbreaker was really good in this match, I think. On the other hand, Dhalsim can't combo into super anymore, and the noogie trap is much easier to deal with. So, I think this match stayed in the same place.

    Blanka: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    Well, you can't deal as much super damage anymore, but that's the only thing that I think is harder for Chun. Nothing Blanka got really helped in this match, so while it's easier for Blanka, I think the difference is negligible.

    Zangief: 7-3 Chun Adv.

    I think the way that Chun zones in this match makes it so that Gief's changes aren't that useful. The faster Banishing Punch helps sometimes, but otherwise this matchup hasn't really moved anywhere I think.

    Fei Long: 4-6 Fei Adv.

    Fei's new LK Chicken Wing wrecks this match for Chun, because it's no longer safe to throw fireballs in that range. It's a lot easier for Fei to corner Chun, and she doesn't have a good way out of the corner. Whoever gets their offense going in this match first usually wins. Fei, though, accomplshes it easier than Chun.

    Dee Jay: 5-5, maybe 4-6 Dee Jay Adv.

    This match doesn't feel any worse...but, it sure sounds worse on paper, so I wonder if I just have yet to meet a Dee Jay that can really show me the full extent of how this match has changed? Chun's super was a big deal in the match, and it's weaker now. On top of that, Dee Jay can do his crossup combos easier, and even has a new, easier potential dizzy combo. This match seems like it should be harder for Chun, and yet, I haven't had a harder time with this match in STHD.

    Cammy: 6-4 Chun Adv., maybe 5-5

    I wrote 6-4 Chun, but I don't know much about this match. I know it was considered 6-4 Chun in ST. I think that the new Backfist doesn't help much, and the risker Thrust Kick is bad for Cammy. On the other hand, I haven't played many Cammy players who are awesome with Cannon Drill pressure, so I don't feel like I have enough information to definitively speak on this matchup.

    T.Hawk 6-4 Chun Adv.

    So I know that Hawk players these days seem to think this match is gloriously easy, but that's ridiculous. For one, Hawk Dive is not even dangerous against Chun anymore, because the round is no longer over if you get hit by it. For two, it's easier to escape Hawk's tick throws now, so even if I do mess up big time, I'm not screwed. And finally, you can (and always could) zone Hawk with like three moves: C.Mk, S.Mk, and Chundouken. How this match could be disadvantageous to Chun is beyond me.

    Balrog: 5-5

    All in all, both parties got weaker, but not in any way that changes their overall gameplan in this matchup. So, I think this one stayed about the same.

    Vega: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    This one seems like it should be easier for Chun, but as far as I know, she has no good wall dive counters while grounded, so she still has to risk being knocked down every time if she wants to try and queel wall dive spam. I should also note that I'm TERRIBLE at this matchup, so I'm open to being completely wrong about this.

    Sagat: 4-6 Sagat Adv.

    I think the dynamic of this match has changed a lot, but it still remains bad for Chun. You can now jump in on Sagat (thank God), but that's about all that got better. The super deals inconsistent damage to Sagat, and while it's harder to deal with corner fireball traps from Ryu and Ken, it's now virtually impossible against a Sagat player that's paying attention. So, in the end, while I think the way the match plays out is different, Sagat still has the advantage.


    M.Bison: 6-4 Chun Adv.

    I think this is mostly the same (that is, just plain bad for Bison), but I wonder if it's gotten better enough to move from 7-3 to 6-4? Devil's Reverse is pretty awesome as an escape, and Chun's Lower priority Lightning Legs allows Bison to hit Chun out of them clean with Psycho Crusher and Scissor Kicks. Granted, it's not consistent, but it trades/wins a LOT more often, so even if you accidentally do a Psycho Crusher/Scissor Kicks right into Chun's Lightning Legs, it has a much better chance of working out for Bison, now.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

    "Jesus would be MAD if he had to fight Ivan Ooze."
    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    I just updated the first post with an updated chart (haven't taken skankin garbage's most recent post into account yet). Damn this takes a long time. Here's the changelist:
    Guile v Sagat
    Orig chart: 4-6
    IrrepressibleGuile: 6-4
    Axel Kelly: "Maybe 5-5, no way Guile wins it"
    AudioCG: "In Guile's favor or dead even"
    # New rating: 5-5


    Fei v Guile
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Coth_X: "More even than that" (4.5-5.5 ?)
    TecmoSuperBowl: "At least even, if not in Fei's favor" (5-5 to 5.5-4.5)
    Aqua Snake: 5-5
    # New rating: 5-5


    M.Bison v Fei
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Percy: "More in Fei's favour"
    Aqua Snake: 5-5
    Mackdaddi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    Guile v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Axel Kelly: 3-7
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Cammy v Guile
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Silver Rain 007: 3.5-6.5
    Noriega: 3.5-6.5
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Cammy v Honda
    Orig chart: 3.5-6.5
    Silver Rain 007: 3-7 (or worse)
    Noriega: 2-8
    Kuroppi: 2-8
    # New rating: 3-7


    Fei v Chun
    Orig chart: 4.5-6.5
    skankin garbage: 6-4
    Aqua Snake: 6.5-3.5
    # New rating: 6-4


    Chun v Ken
    Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
    skankin garbage: 4-6
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    Zangief v Ryu
    Orig chart: 5-5
    rcaido: 4.5-5.5
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Zangief v Ken
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Zangief v Guile
    Orig chart: 3-7
    rcaido: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 3.5-6.5
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Zangief v Cammy
    Orig chart: 3-7
    rcaido: 4-6
    Noriega: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Zangief v Fei
    Orig chart: 3-7
    rcaido: 5-5
    Aqua Snake: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Zangief v Deejay
    Orig chart: 4-6
    rcaido: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 3.5-6.5
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Zangief v Vega
    Orig chart: 4-6
    rcaido: 3-7 (unsure)
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # Stay at 4-6


    Honda v Ryu
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 1.5-8.5
    EA Megaman: 2-8 (or worse)
    blitzfu: 3-7 to 2-8
    # New rating: 2.5-7.5


    Honda v Ken
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 2.5-7.5
    blitzfu: 3-7 to 2-8
    studtrooper: "as hard as Ryu, Honda is fucked vs a good Ken"
    # New rating: 2.5-7.5


    Dhalsim v Ryu
    Orig chart: 6-4
    Sweet Poison: 5-5
    blitzfu: 6-4
    # Stay at 6-4


    Dhalsim v Deejay
    Orig chart (BruceLB): 6-4
    Sweet Poison: 5.5-4.5
    # Stay at 6-4


    Dhalsim v Balrog
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Sweet Poison: 4-6
    studtrooper: 5-5 to 6-4
    1hitparry: 5-5
    blitzfu: 6-4
    # Stay at 5-5


    Balrog v Ken
    Orig chart (damdai): 6-4
    1hitparry: 5-5 or 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 5.5-4.5


    Ryu v Cammy
    Orig chart: 6.5-3.5
    Noriega: 7-3
    # Stay at 6.5-3.5 until more opinions...


    Ken v Cammy
    Orig chart: 6.5-3.5
    Noriega: 7-3
    # Stay at 6.5-3.5 until more opinions...


    Fei v Cammy
    Orig chart (detailed below): 4.5-5.5
    -Noriega: 4-6
    -Aqua Snake: 4.5-5.5
    -Eventhubs guy: 5-5
    -Sirlin: "About even"
    Noriega (new rating): 2-8 or 2.5-7.5
    Aqua Snake (same rating): 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 4-6


    Balrog v Cammy
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Noriega: 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    Vega v Cammy
    Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
    Noriega: 5-5
    # New rating: 5-5


    Sagat v Cammy
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Noriega: 5.5-4.5
    # New rating: 5.5-4.5


    Ken v Vega
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Honda v Balrog
    Orig chart (Thelo): 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 5-5
    EA Megaman: 5-5 (agreed with orig chart)
    # Stay at 5-5


    M.Bison v Ryu
    Orig chart (damdai): 4-6
    VirtuaFighterFour: 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    M.Bison v Honda
    Orig chart: 4-6
    VirtuaFighterFour: 4.5-5.5
    Thelo: 4.5-5.5 (recently changed my mind)
    Kuroppi: 4.5-5.5
    Mackdaddi: 4.5-5.5 to 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    M.Bison v Zangief
    Orig chart (damdai): 6-4
    VirtuaFighterFour: 4.5-5.5
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    Mackdaddi: 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    M.Bison v Guile
    Orig chart: 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 5.5-4.5
    # New rating: 5.5-4.5


    M.Bison v T.Hawk
    Orig chart: 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 7-3
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    Mackdaddi: 4-6
    # Stay at 5-5


    M.Bison v Cammy
    Orig chart: 6-4
    Noriega: 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 8-2
    # Stay at 6-4


    T.Hawk v Ryu:
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 3-7
    JigglyNorris: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    T.Hawk v Ken:
    Orig chart: 5-5
    VirtuaFighterFour: 2-8
    JigglyNorris: 3-7 "at worst"
    # New rating: 3-7


    T.Hawk v Chun:
    Orig chart (detailed below): 5.5-4.5
    -Zass: 4-6 ## removed vote
    -JigglyNorris: 4.5-5.5
    -Eventhubs guy: 5-5
    -skankin garbage: 6-4 (?)
    -Ouroborus: "Chun's worst matchup"
    -gridman: "Hawk splash still kills Chun Li"
    VirtuaFighterFour: 6.5-3.5
    # Stay at 5.5-4.5 for now


    Blanka v Deejay
    Orig chart (BruceLB): 4-6
    Empirion: 3-7
    # Stay at 4-6 for now


    Blanka v Balrog
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Empirion: 3-7
    # New rating: 3.5-6.5


    Blanka v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 5.5-4.5
    Empirion: 4-6
    # New rating: 5-5


    Blanka v Cammy
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    Empirion: 4-6
    Noriega: 6-4 (unsure)
    # Stay at 4.5-5.5


    Blanka v Fei
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    Empirion: 4-6
    Aqua Snake: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6


    Blanka v Chun
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    Empirion: 4-6
    # Stay at 4.5-5.5 for now


    Blanka v Sagat
    Orig chart: 5-5
    Empirion: 4-6
    # Stay at 5-5 for now


    T.Hawk v Fei
    Orig chart (JigglyNorris?): 4-6
    Aqua Snake: 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    Fei v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 4.5-5.5
    Aqua Snake: 3.5-6.5
    # New rating: 4-6


    Honda v Deejay
    Orig chart (Thelo): 3.5-6.5
    Kuroppi: 3-7
    # Stay at 3.5-6.5


    Honda v Zangief
    Orig chart (Thelo): 7.5-2.5
    Kuroppi: 6.5-3.5 (!)
    # Stay at 7.5-2.5


    Zangief v Chun
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 4-6


    T.Hawk v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 6-4
    Sweet Poison: 6-4 (agree with Kuroppi)
    # New rating: 6-4


    T.Hawk v Blanka
    Orig chart (JigglyNorris?): 3.5-6.5
    Kuroppi: 3-7
    # Stay at 3.5-6.5 for now


    Zangief v Dhalsim
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 5.5-4.5 (!)
    Sweet Poison: 5.5-4.5 (agree with Kuroppi)
    blitzfu: 4-6
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5


    T.Hawk v Guile
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    JigglyNorris: 4-6
    gridman: 3-7
    # Stay at 4-6


    T.Hawk v Sagat
    Orig chart: 3.5-6.5
    Kuroppi: 3.5-6.5
    gridman: 4.5-5.5
    # Stay at 3.5-6.5 for now


    T.Hawk v Vega
    Orig chart: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 3-7
    gridman: 4-6
    # Stay at 3-7 for now


    M.Bison v Balrog
    Orig chart: 4-6
    Mackdaddi: 5-5
    # New rating: 4.5-5.5
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • 1hitparry1hitparry Scrubasaurus Joined: Posts: 1,516
    Thanks for updating and taking our input in to consideration. Looking at how many people have contributed you've definitely put a lot of work into compiling everything into a neat chart. Also, my rating on Ken vs. Boxer is up for debate. I personally get stuck in the same situation over and over again so there might be something I'm overlooking.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    I'm not a Dictator player either so I can't really comment on whether his ratings are accurate or not. But I am also surprised he is so low because I consider him one of the strongest in the game....all his matchups seem to be winnable especially with his "ToD" capabilities......Either he is sort of an anomaly and goes against the chart, his ratings are all off, or maybe a lot of us (myself included) are overrating him.

    I think what throws him in the rankings is that he really lives or dies off of his specific advantages and disadvantages in a match, and the swing between the two is much more marked than the rest of the cast. He's the exact opposite of the definition of an "all rounder". He doesn't have any really good matchups, or any really bad ones, just really good and really REALLY bad situations that he can get himself into in each one, which is why it's tough to classify him

    Take ryu as an example. I consider ryu to be the best all round character in the game. He's not phenomenal at anything in particular, he has some strengths and some weaknesses, but he's pretty much comfortable playing in attack, defence, zoning, being zoned....wherever. He's a workhorse, he plugs away and earns his wins without anything too flashy, but it's also tough put him in a REALLY sticky situation.

    Dictator, on the other hand, is kill or be killed. It's all or nothing with him, so if a smart player who knows how and when to use his normals and counters, and especially has a handle on his opponent's tactics and gameplan uses him he can terorize a lot of the cast and do a lot of tricky, flashy, shenanigan type stuff that you really have to be on your toes for, because there's always the possibility of him getting in and getting a window for a TOD combo and it's game over. On the other hand, if somebody knows how to play against him and knows how to exploit his weaknesses (vulnerable to crossups, lack of attacking reversals, weak grounded anti air game, useless in the corner) he can get fairly heavily hammered and there often isn't a thing he can do about it.

    To put it another way, i think he's mid tier because he has phenomenal offence capabilities, that are easily near the top of the pack when he's played on the attack by a sharp, matchup savvy player, but he also has massive holes in his defensive game that other characters don't have that balance that out. For example, He has no reversal, so you can jump in on him all day long. There's only one other character in the game who has the same issue (sim) and HE has one of the best defensive and keepaway games in the game.

    I've had days where nobody can touch me with dictator, and i feel like he's the best character in the game by a mile, and i've had days where i get so badly messed up and can do nothing about it that i think i'm wasting my time and will never be able to compete at a higher level with him purely because i'm battling against a set of stupidly designed character limitations. I doubt there are too many other choices of main that carry the same issue.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    Awesome work, Thelo!
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Sorry but that match guile vs rog is 7-3 in rogs favor. Vega is like 8-2 vs guile in claws favor. and the chun vs guile is 6-4 in chuns favor. All of those characters have to tools to counter and rape guile. guile vs ryu is not 5.5 its 6-4 in ryus favor
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    ^^^any macthup is winnable but to say dic is one of the strongest becuase his TOD is wrong. yea it is very strong and a game winning combo but by all mean is not something to rely on.
    Except that almost every top Dictator in Japan learned to play this exact way for ST (until Taira came long in the last few years). Just dig through YuuVega footage. He is known in Japan for having the BEST okizeme of anyone who plays Super Turbo. He wins more matches using Dictator's cross ups (and DJ's and Claw's crossups as well) than all other players. YuuVega even jumps RIGHT AT people to land a huge combo because he knows that the risk/reward is heavily in Dictator's favor. He also sits still doing nothing for half of the round sometimes just waiting for that one chance to land a huge combo because that it his ENTIRE game plan. Don't believe me?









    Just trawl through YouTube for matches of YuuVega to see just how amazingly effective relying on huge combos and dizzy can be for Dictator.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • xcfriscoxcfrisco Joined: Posts: 498
    I multiplied each character's match up number by their total/(75), then got new totals for each character. Thus, these numbers improve the tier rating of a character that has good match ups versus high-tier characters and make good match ups versus low-tiers worth less. This isn't completely accurate, as the formula should technically use its own result to determine the final values, but this is it after one iteration.

    Vega: 82.36
    Ryu: 82.23
    Balrog: 82.13
    Dhalsim: 78.83
    Dee Jay: 78.56
    Chun Li: 78.24
    E. Honda: 77.11
    Ken: 76.28
    Sagat: 75.42
    Guile: 75.32
    M. Bison: 72.13
    Blanka: 71.98
    Cammy: 71.45
    Fei Long: 67.58
    T. Hawk: 60.50
    Zangief: 58.05

    That's really cool. I thinks it weird that Vega is always ranked so high but at most majors its Ryu/Balrog cleaning house.
  • SG10xSG10x Blanka Sucks Joined: Posts: 402
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B

    Blanka 3 4 4 4.5 - 7 5 5 6.5 4.5 4 3 2 4 4 5


    I don't know why, but alot of your match ups with Blanka in the initial chart were higher than they should be, a lot higher in some cases. I know you compiled it off a list you saw from other players, but I can't understand why they came out to be so high. I'd like to see what other players think
  • SG10xSG10x Blanka Sucks Joined: Posts: 402
    Ryu Ken E.H Chu Bla Zan Gui Dha T.H Cam Fei Dee Bal Veg Sag M.B

    Blanka 3 4 4 4.5 - 7 5 5 6.5 4.5 4 3 2 4 4 5


    I don't know why, but alot of your match ups with Blanka in the initial chart were higher than they should be, a lot higher in some cases. I know you compiled it off a list you saw from other players, but I can't understand why they came out to be so high. I'd like to see what other players think
  • WhatsNext12WhatsNext12 what the prolem is? Joined: Posts: 73
    Except that almost every top Dictator in Japan learned to play this exact way for ST (until Taira came long in the last few years). Just dig through YuuVega footage. He is known in Japan for having the BEST okizeme of anyone who plays Super Turbo. He wins more matches using Dictator's cross ups (and DJ's and Claw's crossups as well) than all other players. YuuVega even jumps RIGHT AT people to land a huge combo because he knows that the risk/reward is heavily in Dictator's favor. He also sits still doing nothing for half of the round sometimes just waiting for that one chance to land a huge combo because that it his ENTIRE game plan. Don't believe me?









    Just trawl through YouTube for matches of YuuVega to see just how amazingly effective relying on huge combos and dizzy can be for Dictator.

    yes ive seen all those. i know yuuvega is the master TOD but often as much the risk dosent pay off. but imo taira is the better bison and does not rely on the TOD (u kinda already said this).
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,263
    I just updated the first post with an updated chart (haven't taken skankin garbage's most recent post into account yet). Damn this takes a long time. Here's the changelist:

    Zangief v Fei

    Orig chart: 3-7
    rcaido: 5-5
    Aqua Snake: 3-7
    Kuroppi: 4-6
    # New rating: 4-6

    Fei v Cammy
    Orig chart (detailed below): 4.5-5.5
    -Noriega: 4-6
    -Aqua Snake: 4.5-5.5
    -Eventhubs guy: 5-5
    -Sirlin: "About even"
    Noriega (new rating): 2-8 or 2.5-7.5
    Aqua Snake (same rating): 4.5-5.5
    # New rating: 4-6

    Wow Thelo, you've outdone yourself! Good stuff!

    I thought I should point out you had me down in the Zangief vs. Fei matchup as 7-3, but I said 6-4 Fei's favor. Of course there was SO many numbers you were trying to compile so of course it was a small error. :smile:

    And Norieaga I have to play you again. Fei vs. Cammy 2.5-7.5? :looney:

    I know Cammy has a slight advantage against Fei, but that high?!

    I haven't played you in a long time so I'd love for you to show me that Fei has it that bad. :wink:
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,088
    Just dig through YuuVega footage. He is known in Japan for having the BEST okizeme of anyone who plays Super Turbo.

    Not everyone speaks japanophile.
    ST/HDR: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    GGPO/Fightcade: x64
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,212
    And Norieaga I have to play you again. Fei vs. Cammy 2.5-7.5? :looney:

    I know Cammy has a slight advantage against Fei, but that high?!

    I haven't played you in a long time so I'd love for you to show me that Fei has it that bad. :wink:
    Sure, I'd be up for that! I consider facing Fei my best matchup and the numbers reflect that. Reasons for my high advantage towards Cammy:

    - Fei can be thrown easy after a light CW and proper spacing
    - CW goes over drill, equals free throw
    - Fei's hitbox is good, I don't have trouble landing my cross-up as I do on another characters
    - st. fierce is useful
    - I can hooligan whiffed flame kicks

    If there's anything I fear in this match its the Rekka Ken. However, I pretty much spend the whole matchup looking for that move so I'm used to it. But its very deadly, one of the reasons I think Fei shits on Cammy otherwise.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • DecoyDecoy You better block. Joined: Posts: 497
    Here is my take on these matchups.

    CHAR PTS REASON
    Ryu 4 Fake fireball makes it MUCH harder to get in.
    Ken 4.5 C. MP is very very good vs Blanka.
    E. Honda 4.5 Down back all day.
    Chun Li 4.5 J. LK and stored super.
    Blanka
    Zangief 7 Can keep him at bay all day with 101 anti-airs.
    Guile 6.5 Too much work for Guile to keep a good Blanka out.
    Dhalsim 5 Easier electric knockdowns help Blanka get in.
    T.Hawk 7 (see Zangief strat)
    Cammy 5.5 Hops negate her attacks.
    Fei Long 4.5 J. LK and C. FP work wonders.
    Dee Jay 3 Too many good normals.
    Balrog 3 Too many good normals.
    Vega 3.5 Crouch + poke = win.
    Sagat 5 His hitboxes changed and so has this matchup.
    M. Bison 6 101 counters to anything he does.

    TOTAL: 73.5
    XBL Tag: Real Decoy
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Blanka matchups
    Ryu 7-3 adv Ryu
    Ken 6-4 adv Ken
    Honda 6-4 adv Honda
    Chun 5.5-4.5 adv Chun
    Blanka5/5
    Zangief 7-3 adv Blanka
    Guile 5/5
    Sim 5/5
    Hawk 6.5- 3.5 adv Blanka
    Cammy 5.5- 4.5 adv Cammy
    Fei 6-4 adv Fei
    DJ 7-3 adv DJ

    (I assume american bosses?)
    Balrog 8-2 adv Balrog
    Vega 6-4 adv Vega
    Sagat 6-4 adv Sagat
    Bison 5/5

    I don't know why, but alot of your match ups with Blanka in the initial chart were higher than they should be, a lot higher in some cases. I know you compiled it off a list you saw from other players, but I can't understand why they came out to be so high. I'd like to see what other players think

    Is this correct BTC? I tried to make the format easier to read.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,212
    I smell serious business brewing. VF4 likes it when men are in the okizeme position, no homo.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    :rofl:
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • je110je110 Dantastic Joined: Posts: 385
    I don't play HDR nearly as much as I play ST, and not nearly the same level of competition when I do, but from my limited experience, Dee Jay's matchups do look fairly accurate.
  • SG10xSG10x Blanka Sucks Joined: Posts: 402
    Is this correct BTC? I tried to make the format easier to read.

    Hey Coth, yeah that is correct, sorry I got too lazy when I saw it didn't post correctly
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    I agree with BTCs list.

    The matchups for blanka in the first post are a bit too optimictic.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 641
    I've never been a big fan of the eventhubs tier list, it feels a little compressed (to borrow a word someone used quite well earlier) in places since they included Akuma.

    http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/11/super-turbo-new-arcadia-diagram.html
    I personally find this to be more accurate.

    Zangief v Ken (Agreed with Kuroppi, 4-6 adv Ken)
    I main both. I agree that Ken has the advantage. I can't put my finger on it, but 5.5-6.5 for Ken would seem about right. As Ken vs Zangief, weak hadou, sweep, roundhouse crazy kick keep Gief out nicely, if he does get up close and personal, you can always fierce punch xx tatsu sweep combo to score some hits and some push back. As a Gief player I fear a Ken player with good reversals. New hop is awesome for avoiding sweeps, but you have to predict it right. Random fierce DPs up close are always a threat too. I feel much of Gief's tick throw gameplan is too risky with Ken's reversals, so it tends to lean more on normals and getting them to whiff reversals. I know getting in can be a pain, but I haven't played many Ken players that play a text book keep away game.

    I would say Kuroppi has it right at Ken 6, Zangief 4, but it may vary either way


    Zangief v Ryu (Agreed with Kuroppi, 4-6 adv Ryu, possibly 6.5)
    Strange matchup. My first thoughts was that it was going to be less in favour of Zangief than Vs Ken, but on the other hand it's probably about the same. The difficulty really comes from effective use of the fake hadou plus the general strength of his zoning game and the fact that his super carries little risk. All things that make it hard to get in, just hard in a different kind of way from Ken. Once in, I feel the match swings in Zangief's favour as Ryu's reversal shoryu is not as effective as Ken's and even if you do get one, it will quite often trade with something, so pressuring is less of a risky business, and I feel more comfortable tick SPD'ing Ryu. I guess how this match rates will depend solely on how good the Zangief player is a working around fireball traps. Again, I think I'm going to agree with Kuroppi. I prefer playing against Zangief with Ken (more comfortable with my zoning setup and moveset), but I feel I would get similar results with Ryu (or better if I was good at using the fake fireball). As Zangief though, I fear a good Ryu more than a good Ken. Against Ryu it's hard getting in, not so hard once you are in. With Ken it's not so hard getting in, but harder once you are in.

    Zangief v Guile (3-7 adv Guile)
    Nothing to say except this is extremely hard work against a good Guile. I actually hate this matchup more than Vs Dhalsim.

    Zangief v Honda (2-8 adv Honda)

    Ken v Chun Li (5-5)
    Does not feel like either character has any outstanding advantages. Aside from the medium shoryu, it's possible for Chun's air attacks to trade, so it isn't quite a free win for Ken. General speed and throw are just annoying but nothing too much to be concerned about.

    Ken v Boxer (4-6 adv Boxer)
    Agreed with Damdai. I feel Ken has an easier time keeping him away than it is for him to get in, but once he gets in, it's difficult to shake off a good boxer.

    Ken v Cammy (6-4 adv Ken)
    Cammy's limited options for dealing with projectiles pretty much mean that she can get zoned easily. Once outside of her sweet spot she will tend to eat chip damage or have her attempts at getting close stuffed by one thing or another. Only real advantage she has are her great pokes. It's hard for her to get in, but once she's in it's not too hard to get her back out again.
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    A snapshot of the Match-ups as of February 2nd, 2010, with Vanilla Super Turbo Comparison Charts taken from Nohoho's Site at:

    http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/11/super-turbo-new-arcadia-diagram.html
    [b]NEW HD REMIX MATCH UP CHART[/b]
                RY     KE     EH     CH     BL     ZA     GU     DH     TH     CA     FE     DJ     BX     CL     SG     DI     TOTAL   +/-
    Ryu         -      6.0    7.5    6.0    6.0    6.0    5.0    4.0    6.0    6.5    6.0    6.5    4.5    4.0    5.0    5.5    84.5    9.5
    Vega        6.0    6.0    4.0    5.0    6.0    6.0    6.5    6.0    7.0    5.0    6.0    5.5    4.5    -      6.0    4.0    83.5    8.5
    Balrog      5.5    5.5    5.0    5.0    6.5    4.0    6.0    5.0    6.0    4.5    6.5    6.0    -      5.5    6.0    5.5    82.5    7.5
    Ken         4.0    -      7.5    5.5    6.0    6.0    4.5    4.0    7.0    6.5    6.0    5.0    4.5    4.0    4.5    6.0    81.0    6.0
    Dee Jay     3.5    5.0    6.5    5.0    6.0    6.5    5.0    4.0    6.5    6.0    7.0    -      4.0    4.5    5.0    6.0    80.5    5.5
    Dhalsim     6.0    6.0    4.5    4.0    5.0    5.5    6.5    -      4.0    4.0    6.0    6.0    5.0    4.0    7.0    5.0    78.5    3.5
    E.Honda     2.5    2.5    -      4.5    6.0    7.5    4.0    5.5    7.5    7.0    6.5    3.5    5.0    6.0    4.5    5.5    78.0    3.0
    Sagat       5.0    5.5    5.5    5.5    5.0    7.0    5.0    3.0    6.5    5.5    4.5    5.0    4.0    4.0    -      5.0    76.0    1.0
    Chun Li     4.0    4.5    5.5    -      5.5    6.0    5.0    6.0    4.5    5.5    4.0    5.0    5.0    5.0    4.5    5.5    75.5    0.5
    Guile       5.0    5.5    6.0    5.0    3.5    6.5    -      3.5    6.0    6.5    5.0    5.0    4.0    3.5    5.0    4.5    74.5    -0.5
    M.Bison     4.5    4.0    4.5    4.5    5.0    4.5    5.5    5.0    5.0    6.0    4.5    4.0    4.5    6.0    5.0    -      72.5    -2.5
    Blanka      4.0    4.0    4.0    4.5    -      7.0    6.5    5.0    6.5    4.5    4.0    4.0    3.5    4.0    5.0    5.0    71.5    -3.5
    Cammy       3.5    3.5    3.0    4.5    5.5    6.0    3.5    6.0    7.0    -      6.0    4.0    5.5    5.0    4.5    4.0    71.5    -3.5
    Fei Long    4.0    4.0    3.5    6.0    6.0    6.0    5.0    4.0    5.5    4.0    -      3.0    3.5    4.0    5.5    5.5    69.5    -5.5
    Zangief     4.0    4.0    2.5    4.0    3.0    -      3.5    4.5    5.0    4.0    4.0    3.5    6.0    4.0    3.0    5.5    60.5    -14.5
    T.Hawk      4.0    3.0    2.5    5.5    3.5    5.0    4.0    6.0    -      3.0    4.5    3.5    4.0    3.0    3.5    5.0    60.0    -15.0
    
    [b]ORIGINAL VANILLA SUPER TURBO MATCH UP CHART[/b]
                RY     KE     EH     CH     BL     ZA     GU     DH     TH     CA     FE     DJ     BX     CL     SG     DI     TOTAL   +/-
    Dhalsim     7.0    7.5    6.5    5.0    8.0    7.5    8.5    -      6.5    6.5    6.5    8.0    5.5    3.5    9.0    6.5    102.0   27.0
    Boxer       6.0    6.5    6.5    4.5    7.5    5.5    6.0    4.5    5.5    7.5    7.0    7.0    -      5.5    8.0    6.5    94.0    19.0
    Claw        6.0    6.0    6.0    6.0    6.5    6.5    7.0    6.5    7.0    6.0    6.5    6.0    4.5    -      7.5    5.0    93.0    18.0
    Ryu         -      6.5    8.0    6.0    7.5    4.5    6.5    3.0    6.0    7.5    6.5    7.0    4.0    4.0    6.5    6.5    90.0    15.0
    Chun-Li     4.0    6.5    7.5    -      7.0    7.5    6.0    5.0    5.5    6.0    4.0    6.5    5.5    4.0    6.5    7.0    88.5    13.5
    Guile       3.5    6.5    8.0    4.0    6.0    8.0    -      1.5    6.5    8.0    7.5    5.5    4.0    3.0    6.5    5.5    84.0    9.0
    DeeJay      3.0    5.0    8.5    3.5    7.5    4.5    4.5    2.0    7.0    8.0    7.5    -      3.0    4.0    5.5    6.5    80.0    5.0
    Dictator    3.5    4.0    3.5    3.0    3.5    4.5    4.5    3.5    7.0    8.0    6.5    3.5    3.5    5.0    6.5    -      70.0    -5.0
    Sagat       3.5    5.0    6.5    3.5    8.0    6.0    3.5    1.0    6.5    7.0    6.5    4.5    2.0    2.5    -      3.5    69.5    -5.5
    E.Honda     2.0    3.0    -      2.5    7.5    8.5    2.0    3.5    6.5    8.0    7.0    1.5    3.5    4.0    3.5    6.5    69.5    -5.5
    Ken         3.5    -      7.0    3.5    5.0    4.0    3.5    2.5    5.5    5.0    4.5    5.0    3.5    4.0    5.0    6.0    67.5    -7.5
    Fei-Long    3.5    5.5    3.0    6.0    6.5    7.0    2.5    3.5    7.0    7.0    -      2.5    3.0    3.5    3.5    3.5    67.5    -7.5
    Zangief     5.5    6.0    1.5    2.5    4.0    -      2.0    2.5    5.5    3.5    3.0    5.5    4.5    3.5    4.0    5.5    59.0    -16.0
    Cammy       2.5    5.0    2.0    4.0    6.0    6.5    2.0    3.5    8.5    -      3.0    2.0    2.5    4.0    3.0    2.0    56.5    -18.5
    Blanka      2.5    5.0    2.5    3.0    -      6.0    4.0    2.0    7.0    4.0    3.5    2.5    2.5    3.5    2.0    6.5    56.5    -18.5
    T.Hawk      4.0    4.5    3.5    4.5    3.0    4.5    3.5    3.5    -      1.5    3.0    3.0    4.5    3.0    3.5    3.0    52.5    -22.5
    

    This clearly shows two things: 1) The tier order hasn't changed drastically. 2) But the goal of compressing tiers was VERY much accomplished.

    Very interesting stuff!! ^_^

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 641
    HDR KEN VS ST KEN
                RY     KE     EH     CH     BL     ZA     GU     DH     TH     CA     FE     DJ     BX     CL     SG     DI     TOTAL   +/-
    Ken HD      4.0    -      7.5    5.5    6.0    6.0    4.5    4.0    7.0    6.5    6.0    5.0    4.5    4.0    4.5    6.0    81.0    6.0
    Ken ST      3.5    -      7.0    3.5    5.0    4.0    3.5    2.5    5.5    5.0    4.5    5.0    3.5    4.0    5.0    6.0    67.5    -7.5
    
    Some of the matches have changed considerably. For example winning an extra 2 matches out of 10 vs Chun Li and Zangief. I think maybe we could consider Nohoho's tier list, and how the changes made to the characters would impact the matchup as well. I guess tier lists are basically opinion as much as anything else, but I tend to go by this once since it was sort of a consensus matchup chart made from the opinions of the top Japanese players.

    I still get the feeling that the way the tiers are is still much the same as it is in ST, but we just need some more opinions and to refine the data. Ryu is damn good, but I think a pro Dhalsim would still be top tier?

    As for Ken, if I removed a few points as I felt was right, he'd lose 3 or 4 points in total and be sat between Honda and Sagat in the HDR chart.
    HDR ZANGIEF VS ST ZANGIEF
                RY     KE     EH     CH     BL     ZA     GU     DH     TH     CA     FE     DJ     BX     CL     SG     DI     TOTAL   +/-
    Zangief HD  4.0    4.0    2.5    4.0    3.0    -      3.5    4.5    5.0    4.0    4.0    3.5    6.0    4.0    3.0    5.5    60.5    -14.5
    Zangief ST  5.5    6.0    1.5    2.5    4.0    -      2.0    2.5    5.5    3.5    3.0    5.5    4.5    3.5    4.0    5.5    59.0    -16.0
    
    This seems pretty good to me.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Hey Coth, yeah that is correct, sorry I got too lazy when I saw it didn't post correctly

    lol, its cool
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • GoldenArchGoldenArch Joined: Posts: 389
    Ken jumping from number 11 to number 4? Interesting.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Ken jumping from number 11 to number 4? Interesting.

    He did get like 99% buffs when you think about it.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • IrrepressibleGuileIrrepressibleGuile The Power Cosmic Joined: Posts: 726
    Guile matchups, (these scores don?t take lag into consideration)

    Ryu
    6-4 to ryu, Immense fireball pressure, super fireball, hurricane over booms

    Ken
    6-4 to guile, slower fireballs, hurricane is easier to punish even if it hits

    Honda
    6-4 guile, guile can flash kick pretty much anything honda can do, plus guile has so many options to beat honda specials

    Chun
    6-4 to chun, her superb normals and throw games can be a nightmare

    Blanka
    6-4 to blanka, the slide..need I say more?

    Gief
    7-3 to guile, gief has to work hard to get in and loses most of his health in the attempt, only in laggy matches does gief pose a problem to guile.

    Sim
    7-3 to sim, sim just has everything needed to beat guile, great normals which are hard to punish, a quick fireball, long reach

    Hawk
    7-3 to guile, same reasons as gief, only in laggy situations can hawk have the upper hand

    Cammy
    7-3 guile, simular to honda, guile can pretty much flash kick anything she does.

    Fei
    5-5, I don?t think this matchup is as easy for guile as people think, fei has some strong normals and can prevent guile charging by CW pressure.

    DJ
    6-4 to guile, DJ can be zoned quite nicely, whereas dj cant zone guile, dj?s super is easy to counter with a flash kick.

    Rog.

    3-7 to rog, he simply smashes guile into submission. I don?t think the designers of the game considered how strong rogs normals are against guile, not to mention rog?s specials which can actually hit guile even tho there is a SB seperating them.

    Vega

    6-4 to vega, again strong normals that out pioritise guiles and that blasted slide. Vega air game is not as dominant against guile.

    Sagat

    6-4 to guile, sobat after tigers, easier to jump over tigers, jumping medium kick trades with TU unless sagat does it extremly late, flash kick beats tiger knee

    Bison

    6-4 guile, bisons jumping arc and big special moves make him suseptable to air throws, back breakers and flash kicks. Bison has to land a killer combo to dominate this match.
    Funniest Rage Quit Ever:
    HDR Hate Mail Collection:
  • IrrepressibleGuileIrrepressibleGuile The Power Cosmic Joined: Posts: 726
    Guile matchups, (these scores dont take lag into consideration)

    Ryu
    6-4 to ryu, Immense fireball pressure, super fireball, hurricane over booms

    Ken
    6-4 to guile, slower fireballs, hurricane is easier to punish even if it hits

    Honda
    6-4 guile, guile can flash kick pretty much anything honda can do, plus guile has so many options to beat honda specials

    Chun
    6-4 to chun, her superb normals and throw games can be a nightmare

    Blanka
    6-4 to blanka, the slide..need I say more?

    Gief
    7-3 to guile, gief has to work hard to get in and loses most of his health in the attempt, only in laggy matches does gief pose a problem to guile.

    Sim
    7-3 to sim, sim just has everything needed to beat guile, great normals which are hard to punish, a quick fireball, long reach

    Hawk
    7-3 to guile, same reasons as gief, only in laggy situations can hawk have the upper hand

    Cammy
    7-3 guile, simular to honda, guile can pretty much flash kick anything she does.

    Fei
    5-5, I dont think this matchup is as easy for guile as people think, fei has some strong normals and can prevent guile charging by CW pressure.

    DJ
    6-4 to guile, DJ can be zoned quite nicely, whereas dj cant zone guile, djs super is easy to counter with a flash kick.

    Rog.

    3-7 to rog, he simply smashes guile into submission. I dont think the designers of the game considered how strong rogs normals are against guile, not to mention rogs specials which can actually hit guile even tho there is a SB seperating them.

    Vega

    6-4 to vega, again strong normals that out pioritise guiles and that blasted slide. Vega air game is not as dominant against guile.

    Sagat

    6-4 to guile, sobat after tigers, easier to jump over tigers, jumping medium kick trades with TU unless sagat does it extremly late, flash kick beats tiger knee

    Bison

    6-4 guile, bisons jumping arc and big special moves make him suseptable to air throws, back breakers and flash kicks. Bison has to land a killer combo to dominate this match.
    Funniest Rage Quit Ever:
    HDR Hate Mail Collection:
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    I dont think the designers of the game considered how strong rogs normals are against guile

    I often think that communities like SRK have gotten far deeper into games like SSF2T than it's original designers ever did. We give such creedence to capcom for designing one of the most deep and balanced fighters ever devised, but i have a feeling that far more of it was by accident than we give them credit for. Weren't combos originally a happy accident that had never been meant to make it into SF2 in the first place?....I bet they never considered quite a lot of stuff like character and matchup balance as deeply as we think they did.

    I have a feeling Dave Sirlin's work on HDR was about as deep as that kind of balancing train of thought ever went in any fighting game. Getting down to the individual matchup ramifications of nearly every move in the game is a HUGE amount of work.
    A snapshot of the Match-ups as of February 2nd, 2010....snip...
                RY     KE     EH     CH     BL     ZA     GU     DH     TH     CA     FE     DJ     BX     CL     SG     DI     TOTAL   +/-
    M.Bison     4.5    4.0    4.5    4.5    5.0    4.5    5.5    5.0    5.0    6.0    4.5    4.0    4.5    6.0    5.0    -      72.5    -2.5
    

    This looks a little more accurate to me for dictator's matchups, i'm surprised that ken is seen as tougher than ryu for dic, i would have thought they were about the same, both have a very slight advantage only, and i would think fei is a tougher match than 6-4 in bison's favour, but i might just be shit at that matchup. The only one that sticks out as still wrong to me is dictator going evens with T.Hawk. I still think hawk has an edge in that matchup. I'd be interested in getting Jigglynorris's oppinion on it, as he's the best hawk i've played, and one of the best dictators, so he should have a good take on it. I'm happy to go with what the community and better players think, but I think hawk wins it by 0.5 or 1 point because it's so difficult for dictator to have a mistake free round against him that doesn't lead to hawk getting in and pulverising him.

    It's a relief to see dictator rising up the rankings a little bit from his initial 4th from the bottom placing. I think he should end up back around mid tier after all this new tier list stuff is sorted out. I wonder if sirlin will have any comment on the fact that this seems to show his goal of compressing the tiers has been borne out in the long run?
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • IrrepressibleGuileIrrepressibleGuile The Power Cosmic Joined: Posts: 726
    I often think that communities like SRK have gotten far deeper into games like SSF2T than it's original designers ever did. We give such creedence to capcom for designing one of the most deep and balanced fighters ever devised, but i have a feeling that far more of it was by accident than we give them credit for. Weren't combos originally a happy accident that had never been meant to make it into SF2 in the first place?....I bet they never considered quite a lot of stuff like character and matchup balance as deeply as we think they did.

    I have a feeling Dave Sirlin's work on HDR was about as deep as that kind of balancing train of thought ever went in any fighting game. Getting down to the individual matchup ramifications of nearly every move in the game is a HUGE amount of work.

    I Agree, but its neccessary if a game such as this is to have true balance
    Funniest Rage Quit Ever:
    HDR Hate Mail Collection:
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 641
    I often think that communities like SRK have gotten far deeper into games like SSF2T than it's original designers ever did. We give such creedence to capcom for designing one of the most deep and balanced fighters ever devised, but i have a feeling that far more of it was by accident than we give them credit for. Weren't combos originally a happy accident that had never been meant to make it into SF2 in the first place?....I bet they never considered quite a lot of stuff like character and matchup balance as deeply as we think they did.
    I think you are right on the money. It's easy to over analyze stuff and look for things that weren't there. It kind of reminds me like when we were at school and you would read a book and have to break it down to what the author was thinking or how they felt at the time, looking for meanings that probably didn't even exist. They probably just wanted to write an entertaining story rather than pepper it with hidden meanings and feelings.

    This looks a little more accurate to me for dictator's matchups, i'm surprised that ken is seen as tougher than ryu for dic, i would have thought they were about the same, both have a very slight advantage only
    I think that maybe the punch tatsu and knee bash factors in to it what with the shenanigans and Dictators lack of a good reversal. Fierce Shoryu arc may help too for full screen. It's a match I'd rather play as Ken than Ryu. I also have more confidence in Ken's reversal, which is really important when facing an opponent with a ToD combo. My Ken needs work, but I think that 6-4 to Ken is reasonable.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    I Agree, but its neccessary if a game such as this is to have true balance

    Yep, definitely. Comunities like SRK take games like street fighter to the next level after they've been released. It's why the game continues to grow and develop and strategies continue evolve long after the developers have written their last line of code.

    As far as i know (correct me if i'm wrong), HDR has been the only game so far that's been revisited to have all of the knowledge that was built up by the community in the (considerable) period since it first hit the streets put to good use in tweaking some of the balance issues that slipped under the radar WITHOUT it being put to use in an entirely new iteration, rather than just a rebalance for the same game. I doubt that any commercial game development company would be willing to put as much effort and testing time in in their initial development of a game as Sirlin did in the remix of HDR, it would just be too much playtesting cost by a developer in order to please too few people (purists like us) but i think the way HDR was remixed could be a blueprint for companies to refine the balance of their fighting games in future, particularly ones that are sold via DLC, and don't need a big spend on things like shipping, pressing, logistics, etc by the developer in order to release a second version. Kind of like an extended large-scale public beta test of the final release.

    OR....they could just troll the boards, take a year to gather all the free feedback, patch the game fairly cheaply, throw in an extra character or two, and call it super hyper *whatever the original game was called*, and sell it to us all again for another $50......but we wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for something as cynical as that....would we?:wink:
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • WhatsNext12WhatsNext12 what the prolem is? Joined: Posts: 73
    i play bison alomost exlusively. and the ken matchup is not an easy one. jab dragon punch is one of the biggest factors. knock ken down and i dare you to try and safe jump him youll eat it everytime. try a meaty attack when hes knocked down and instead he knocks you down with a dp. cross him over and ken just dps again sometims hitting you but usally just whiffs as does your cr up. of course this depends on the oppents revrsal skill, and how luckey your feeling. just not worth to me cuz you eat the dp, get knocked down, and ken eats you for breakfast with his own cr up, or jump in. the fierce dp is annoying as well, kills the DR very well. when i play against ken all i feel like i ken do is play footsies with lk, mk and hk, bating dps and fbs. ryu def has the better tatsu against bison since his knocks down. you can throw ken out of knee bash lood with your own.
Sign In or Register to comment.