Consensus matchup chart

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  • Remy77077Remy77077 futility fighting Joined: Posts: 320
    This is awesome! What service are you calling to get this data?

    Thirded!

    This is cool Ad-vitam.

    You may not know, as it's just displaying the figures you get, but do you know exactly how the Fight Data Total's are calculated?

    I assume these are round counts from your ranked matches, but something doesn't seem to add up.

    My win: loss is 404: 105, yet my Fight Data is 934:99:11.

    Maybe I'm being very dumb (it's happened before I know :P), but surely for every match loss, I'd have to have lost at least 3 rounds. :-/
    The only explanation I can think of was if I quit mid-fight all the time (heh, yeah right) and it counted the match loss but not the round losses, or perhaps when my opponents quit out, it counts me as a 3-0 win no matter what the actual score was. It still seems an incredibly low amount of round losses though. Did I get that many quits against me in ranked? Hah, maybe, it was a while since I played it ^_^.

    Joke theory - maybe it doesn't count Akuma round losses! ;-)
    http://www.agoners.com My gaming website
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    Thank you! It's actually a small PHP proxy that connects to http://www.streetfighter.com/flash/sites/sfhd/xml/lookup.php the same one for the Flash site. You use the proxy to get around the same browser origin policy. It's using the the YUI connection manager from YUI Library Examples: Connection Manager: Retrieving a Yahoo! Weather RSS Feed to make an XHR connection. The XML service is directly from Capcom's page.

    You've got the skills to pay the bills my man.
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    I still don't see a foundation to have a consensus chart. There are too many unknowns and disagreements that can't be squared away until these matches get played over and over again offline.

    I think it'd be better to compile what each individual player thinks for his character(s) and let the reader make the decision on whose matchup lists he wants to pay attention to (as seen on nh2's US ST chart). Thelo can then moderate that list by adding/editing submissions instead of averaging divergent numbers in matchups he may not be familiar with.

    Well, Ganelon, you definitely have a basis for what you're saying given all of the hype that was around Honda one year and the new hype that is the Red Cyclone for Mother Russia this time around. I always looked at tier lists as being a compilation of what people think combined with raw empirical data. It's just in a nice and neat chart. It's going to change as time marches on, so why not make it easy for those who come run into it years from now, rather than having to sift through mountains of text?

    Just my two cents on it. I think the tier chart is a great way to capture that data and capsulize it. From there, if you want to know *why* the chart is the way it is, have a link available to breakdowns of the specific matchups. Start small and then have the option to scale out the information available. I think that's a better way to go...especially for those whose time available to look at such information is becoming limited (like ME!!). :)
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,263
    How do the mods feel about turning this thread to a sticky? It would probably get more eyes on it so people dont constantly reference the inaccurate EventHubs chart.

    I think it may be time to update the consensus chart now that Evo is long over don't you think?? :looney: How does giefs matchup numbers change after Evo? James Chen thinks he's top tier because Snake Eyez won with him at Evo. Do you agree/disagree with him?


    Anyway, I'm starting to believe Fei vs. Dhalsim may be 6-4 in Sim's favor now. I originally ranked it 6.5-3.5 in Sim's favor before.

    I think I heavily underated Fei's new rekka range in this matchup.
  • The Mad KingThe Mad King Hyou~ Joined: Posts: 262
    Only matchup numbers that would really change based on Evo would be vs. shotos (even or 6-4 Gief favor). The other top 8's that Snake Eyez faced:

    Tokido (Claw). Current matchup #s have it at 6-4 Claw and that's still pretty accurate. If Tokido had done max-range walldives it might have been a very different match.
    Afro Legends (Boxer). Definitely Gief advantage, maybe a bit wider (6.5-3.5 wouldn't be too much of a stretch).

    To be fair, the only matchups I can speak from experience on are Honda (which is still accurate on the chart, 7.5-2.5 is about right and it could easily be worse for Zangief), Dhalsim (which should be wider, 6.5-3.5 Dhalsim favor, if Sim doesn't mess up in the first 5 ticks it's pretty hard for Gief to get in), and Dictator (which should probably be 5-5, new DR makes Gief's non-splash meaties harder to actually exploit).
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,617
    Tokido (Claw). Current matchup #s have it at 6-4 Claw and that's still pretty accurate. If Tokido had done max-range walldives it might have been a very different match.

    Nah walldives in general don't work quite as well against Gief as they did in ST but i am unsure if Tokido knew that.
    Regardless he would probably have done a lot better if he had stuck to solely a ground game.
    Gief didn't really get any big buffs there against Claw.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Nah walldives in general don't work quite as well against Gief as they did in ST but i am unsure if Tokido knew that.
    Regardless he would probably have done a lot better if he had stuck to solely a ground game.
    Gief didn't really get any big buffs there against Claw.

    That's exactly the problem, he did nothing but a ground game. If he had gone to the wall more, he might have won. You obviously don't play Zangief and don't know how tough max-range wall dives are for him to deal with. Deal with?...He can't do shit against them. Too far for cr Fierce and j Strong, j Fierce can trade, but Zangief is usually behind in health for this match, either way Tokido didn't know what the fuck he was doing. Hell, even my Zangief could have beat him. Next time Tokido, play HDR, not ST.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,617
    That's exactly the problem, he did nothing but a ground game. If he had gone to the wall more, he might have won. You obviously don't play Zangief and don't know how tough max-range wall dives are for him to deal with. Deal with?...He can't do shit against them. Too far for cr Fierce and j Strong, j Fierce can trade, but Zangief is usually behind in health for this match, either way Tokido didn't know what the fuck he was doing. Hell, even my Zangief could have beat him. Next time Tokido, play HDR, not ST.

    Sure.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • GoldenArchGoldenArch Joined: Posts: 389
    You obviously don't play Zangief and don't know how tough max-range wall dives are for him to deal with.

    You really don't need to play a character to know what will and what won't work against him.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    You really don't need to play a character to know what will and what won't work against him.

    I've played Shari's Vega with my Zangief, and he plays a ground game too. Let's just say that Ganelon (who does max range dives against my Zangief) is tougher to beat than Shari. People don't seem to know how good that tactic is vs Zangief.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,617
    I've played Shari's Vega with my Zangief, and he plays a ground game too. Let's just say that Ganelon (who does max range dives against my Zangief) is tougher to beat than Shari. People don't seem to know how good that tactic is vs Zangief.

    Haha.
    Let's just go with that.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • evoanonevoanon FP Black Inside Joined: Posts: 431
    I don't remember playing Shari online but I did play Ganelon at EVO somewhere along the semi-finals in losers bracket. He played a much better claw gief game than tokido did vs snakeeyez. Max range dives are tough to deal with, imo easier irl than online. I'm sure if he had won our close match he would make top 8.
  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,624
    +1 for ganelon's max range dives fucking my shit up at evo.
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    +2 for ganelons max range dives making me feel dumb. blanka shouldn't allow him to do that.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • SG10xSG10x Blanka Sucks Joined: Posts: 402
    +2 for ganelons max range dives making me feel dumb. blanka shouldn't allow him to do that.

    yeah I never allow him to max range dive against me, i do a hop forward-> v-ball, max range dives should not hit blanka at all
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Well they don't nessecarily hit me but still lol. Being used to Shari's claw who doesn't walldive at all it was sort of an adjustment to make when i finally got to play Ganelon.

    I did alright against him.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • SG10xSG10x Blanka Sucks Joined: Posts: 402
    Well they don't nessecarily hit me but still lol. Being used to Shari's claw who doesn't walldive at all it was sort of an adjustment to make when i finally got to play Ganelon.

    I did alright against him.


    Yeah dude I wish I could play Sharizords, vega. Lag makes it impossible, when I play him all I see is constant poke mashing x2 because of lag it looks like Vega is on crack because of how fast the pokes come out
  • Super SharizordSuper Sharizord Overemphasized. Joined: Posts: 22
    I don't remember playing Shari online but I did play Ganelon at EVO somewhere along the semi-finals in losers bracket. He played a much better claw gief game than tokido did vs snakeeyez. Max range dives are tough to deal with, imo easier irl than online. I'm sure if he had won our close match he would make top 8.

    I saw the Tokido match and am going to agree. He could have played the match much better. Though I dont think he had the talent to win that evo.

    About the walldive thing: Gief has plenty of options to deal with dives just have to use the right one. Though i dont quite understand what you guys mean by max wall dives. If i read evonanon's post correctly, he said that he beat Ganelon so obviously the dives could be delt with.

    Ground Vs Air. just my opinion: I think you need both, ha i would hate to have to play foot games with a good gief the entire match!
  • EngravingsEngravings Joined: Posts: 208
    Ground Vs Air. just my opinion: I think you need both, ha i would hate to have to play foot games with a good gief the entire match!

    Agreed. I use ground and air game against Gief. Makes the match go alot smoother for Claw.
  • SlowJoe0SlowJoe0 Joined: Posts: 11
    +3 for max range wall dives sucking for Zangief. Vega's ground game can be frustrating, but a good aerial Vega that knows how to exploit ranges is far harder to connect on.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    While it can be argued that the guessing game is in his favor, Vega has no dive option to hit both sweep and jumping forward kick/punch. Therefore, it does have a risk to do dives against Zangief in SF2X.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    A focused wall dive strategy works against even the best ST Zangief players in the world. There are risks but they can be avoided with good reactions. A solid knowledge of ground counters is also essential for when Zangief gets too close. In HDR, I think focusing on wall dives doesn't work as well without knockdown and the optimal arc is difficult/impossible to attain with Zangief's expanded c.HP.

    As for Blanka, hopping sounds like an advantageous evasion technique in theory but I haven't seen anyone actually use such a counter against me. In fact, I haven't played a Blanka yet that I can't wall dive against (although admittedly, it's not worth the risk attempting in many situations). The best I've seen a Blanka handle wall dives is recently in Japan where the guy just blocked every time and relied on reactions if it looks like claw is going for the izuna drop.
  • SG10xSG10x Blanka Sucks Joined: Posts: 402
    A focused wall dive strategy works against even the best ST Zangief players in the world. There are risks but they can be avoided with good reactions. A solid knowledge of ground counters is also essential for when Zangief gets too close. In HDR, I think focusing on wall dives doesn't work as well without knockdown and the optimal arc is difficult/impossible to attain with Zangief's expanded c.HP.

    As for Blanka, hopping sounds like an advantageous evasion technique in theory but I haven't seen anyone actually use such a counter against me. In fact, I haven't played a Blanka yet that I can't wall dive against (although admittedly, it's not worth the risk attempting in many situations). The best I've seen a Blanka handle wall dives is recently in Japan where the guy just blocked every time and relied on reactions if it looks like claw is going for the izuna drop.

    That's weird I actually made up that technique while playing you a long while back of hoping forward and V-balling those wall dives where you just hold back and open up far away.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    I sometimes use backhop invincibility to evade walldives. situational though.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • jamiejame911jamiejame911 Ever learning Joined: Posts: 424
    So Ken and Deejay are basically top tier? Fei is still at the bottom seems strange (I think he's underrated still). Is the Gief info updated with some Snake Eyes match up knowledge? The main reason I see Sim being out of the top is people in the US not having total mastery over him and rating certain matches less in Sim's favor than they really are. Poor Chun...
    Casually playing:
    SFIV: Fei, Yun
    ST: Ryu, Deejay
    SG: Valentine
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Hi here are some corrections for the incorrect wrong stuff you guys and Sirlin and everyone is mistaken on, here are the real HDR rankings:

    Zangief
    Fei Long

    Claw
    Dhalsim
    Boxer
    DeeJay
    Blanka

    Honda
    Sagat
    Dictator

    Guile
    Ryu
    Ken

    T.Hawk
    Chun Li
    Cammy

    Chun Li is horrible. Zangief is easily the best character. Fei Long is up there too. Blanka is severely underrated all the time.

    Oh and by the way, there is no such thing as a fake fireball move in HDR, in the sense that, it's faking anyone out, in a way that is unique or distinct from other regular moves like standing punches. I.e. if I do a standing punch, you're just as likely to jump.

    XSPR
  • TheRealO.GKenTheRealO.GKen Joined: Posts: 248
    My list is somewhat close.

    Zangief
    Dhalsim
    Fei Long
    Boxer
    Deejay
    T.Hawk
    Blanka
    Claw
    Sagat
    Dictator
    Honda
    Ryu
    Ken
    Guile
    Chun Li
    Cammy
    Hyper Fighting > ST

    Hyper Fighting - Master Level Ken
  • carn114carn114 Joined: Posts: 81
    So, I know that these tier charts are always heavily contested. And I've seen some people balking at the idea of a "consensus" matchup chart for this game.

    But I have to ask anyway, mostly because I'm wondering if, as a Sagat player, counterpicking against Dhalsim and Claw is justified. Why is Sagat nearly even with Claw on the consensus matchup chart on the wiki??

    Seems like a really bad matchup for Sagat. Claw can slide under high shots, can react to them with a claw dive in most cases and be okay, and has all kinds of ways around the low shots, least of which not being a normal jump in with that quick ass jump and low hitting j.HK of his. Sagat has no good answer for Claw off the wall, as the tiger uppercut just isn't invincible enough, and he doesn't really have any air or ground moves with an upward hitbox.

    It looks like most Super Turbo charts have the matchup as 3-7 in favor of Claw (against "New" Sagat), which feels more correct even in this game, in my opinion. Even with HDR Sagat being improved, I still don't think they are the improvements he needed to improve the matchup very much at all. Am I missing some buff to HDR Sagat, or nerf to HDR Claw that changes this at all?
    Fighting Game Journal - http://carn114.livejournal.com/
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 257
    edited June 2014
    ^ Claw vs Sagat is 7-3 in Claw's favor? That's pretty bad, but maybe some of it has to do with players not using Sagat right. Sirlin said nobody uses him correctly. However, I used to put more stock in what he said but after re-reading his blog and talking to him, I can't say he knows what he's talking about on everything.

    As if my list would matter but here's my take on the order:

    Zangief
    Ken
    Boxer
    Fei Long
    Sagat
    Claw
    T.Hawk
    Honda
    Blanka
    Dhalsim
    Ryu
    Dictator
    Guile
    Deejay
    Cammy
    Chun Li

    Zangief is just a priority machine, and I feel like Ken has good tools all-around. Chun and Cammy both rely on trickery and shenanigans too much, couple of paper tigers.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Random wrote: »
    Zangief is just a priority machine, and I feel like Ken has good tools all-around. Chun and Cammy both rely on trickery and shenanigans too much, couple of paper tigers.

    Just curious, have you played against kens much _offline_, in particular? I ask because I noticed one particular tactic that Ken players tend get away with online (that wouldn't work offline). The tactic is ken whiffing a dragon punch/srk, and immediately goes into another one. Online in lag, when the opponent tries to punish the first srk, say with Guile's low mid kick, Guile gets hit by the second srk (because of the lag). I can only imagine that if most of one's experience playing other humans is _online_, so much of a fighting game will be such a mystery as to trying to figure out whether you would or wouldn't have gotten hit if it were offline. (I had enough trouble figuring out "Classic" offline, as it is.) And something like this example might make everyone irrationally afraid of Ken as a character. One example is Xeno Fei something (quits ranked often). He uses Ken and there is a lot of lag with us, and I still have to be careful to punish his whiffed moves that he just tosses out there hoping to snag something, as it is very easy to get hit by something.

    Ken might be a little higher than I ranked him, but not much I'd say- in HDR his faster tatsu spin kick makes huge combos possible/easier (when I challenged Caucasian to show me, he got a big combo on the 1st or 2nd try), but only a few relatively minor things for practical use otherwise. Ken still has to take chances. I don't think the difference makes Ken that much stronger than he was before, but especially not when most characters got stronger.

    Anyway, all of you definitely need to be watch (or attend!) EVO which is less than two weeks away!!

  • carn114carn114 Joined: Posts: 81
    For Zangief, I feel like the Gief player has to be better than anyone playing a character with any decent zoning or keep out tools in order to get in. That's why he is low tier, and should be, imo. If both players are truly equal in skill and matchup knowledge, it's going to be a really tough match for the Gief player.

    For Ken, I think he's really good. B+ tier maybe. Good zoning, great oki tools, and the knee throw loop is still very nice. His damage and dizzy potential is also awesome for one wrong guess. The rapid fire Shoryukens tactic works offline too, if you don't throw out more than 2 in a row. It's not abusable (like it is online), but it's a quick move that recovers very deceptively fast, and can catch many people off guard. Either way, it's just one tool in his well rounded arsenal, and not a deal breaker if it's not there.
    Fighting Game Journal - http://carn114.livejournal.com/
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 257
    ^^ Yeah, shoulda mentioned I play mostly online. You make good points but as carn114 said, Ken is still good offline.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Not sure what you guys mean by having good tools but Ken's is small, Zangief obviously has the biggest tool. Dhalsim's is not bad but there's just not enough girth if that's-- wait, what are we talking about, exactly?
    carn114 wrote: »
    For Zangief, I feel like the Gief player has to be better than anyone playing a character with any decent zoning or keep out tools in order to get in. That's why he is low tier, and should be, imo. If both players are truly equal in skill and matchup knowledge, it's going to be a really tough match for the Gief player.

    For Ken, I think he's really good. B+ tier maybe. Good zoning, great oki tools, and the knee throw loop is still very nice. His damage and dizzy potential is also awesome for one wrong guess. The rapid fire Shoryukens tactic works offline too, if you don't throw out more than 2 in a row. It's not abusable (like it is online), but it's a quick move that recovers very deceptively fast, and can catch many people off guard. Either way, it's just one tool in his well rounded arsenal, and not a deal breaker if it's not there.

    @carn114 No, first of all, Gief is at the top. He and Fei Long just have too much to overpower opponents. I'm saying this from a high level, and what the potential that the character has. It is night and day compared to Classic. Even when I jump in on Zangiefs and land a hit in the air, if I don't follow up by comboing into a second hit on the ground (from far jumping distances that still hit in the air, this is commonly the case where you can't combo it), I often get SPD'd. I suspect this is happening in HDR because the Zangief, intentionally or NOT, rolls the stick, then tries to block, and whether he's too late or not, if he presses or releases a button his opponent gets caught on the ground. So sack throws are now "sack SPDs" and one main reason Zangief often winds up cornering opponents in HDR. Green hand is good and so is the hop which is really fast in HDR. Lariats seem a lot better too- some Zangiefs just repeatedly do lariats over and over, I've seen that many times. And you really can't see this in HDR itself with it being essentially a dead game, and that means so few people play esp at a high level compared to ST/Classic but it is common to see Zangief deal with Claw and Dhalsim without any problem in HDR. I played a lot of Guile over the past year on HDR and Guile's low mid kick always gave Zangief problems, even in HDR but I still got cornered and lost many rounds.

    and the "rapid fire shoryukens" tactic definitely does NOT work offline! I chose that as a specific example because Guile can easily punish a whiffed shoryuken with low mid kick offline. This is not difficult and a basic skill in any situation, against any opponent. This has nothing to do with prediction or Ken as a scary character, and everything to do with simply REACTING, i.e. you do NOT have to predict anything. Another way to say it is, Ken can't go up for his 2nd shoryuken if he gets hit recovering from the first. And there's enough time to hit it, as he goes up, and comes down to recover. There are lots of frames to work with, and Guile's low mid kick is long and pretty quick. But if you don't know it from offline basics, it's all too easy to think the move itself of Ken is good and he's stronger but that's not the case.
    Random wrote: »
    ^^ Yeah, shoulda mentioned I play mostly online. You make good points but as carn114 said, Ken is still good offline.

    Ken is low tier in HDR, I'd say. Even with the throw loop, other characters can usually win. I might put him higher than Ryu (pretty close to bottom himself) on my list above, or at most, in or with the next tier group above but only above Dictator at BEST. Definitely below Blanka level and that whole tier though.


  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 257
    Lol, nice tool joke, cracked me up.

    Anyway, rapidfire SRK seems to still be a usable tactic offline, although not as often or safe. Once in a while it can catch you or go unpunished.

    As for Ken's ranking, I really can't see him being low. Maybe in action but on paper, his tools are varied and good. His jab SRK beats or clashes often with many other similar reversal types, such as Ryu's SRK. His med SK is straight retarded with absolute priority until he falls, so a good call will beat practically anything. His Super is among the best as well for obious reasons.

    His fireball isn't the best but he has one and at least he doesn't need a charge and it doesn't disappear. Knees are useful, and he has an airgrab (dunno how good but yet another option). His Tatsu is fast and has multiple uses, and he has his overhead kick (called crazy kicks?). In all, many options. Obviously you're aware ofthese things but move for move, how could he technically lose to some above him on your list?

    Honda, Dictator, Deejay, Fei Long and Ryu? I feel like Ken has an answer for anything they have. The others are tougher matches, I think, but no nightmares.

    I main Chun (don't like her, been trying to ease into Ken but I'm not cutout for non-charge play so leaning toward Deejay a little) and I've heard people putting Chun 5-5 vs Ken or even favoring her in the match. Not sure how Ken got such a bad rap, he's one of the guys I dread playing because even noobs are a force with him (and only him it seems, strangely; ever see a noob try grapplers? LOLfest.) I'm a scrubby Ken myself, holding my own without any combos at all; pure knees, fireballs, SRKs, shenanigans, ect. And that's kinda sad because I've honed my Chun best I can but smashing SRK just works out better (not for all matches, it especially doesn't work on Balrog).

    I'm not a good player but I'm a smart guy, I see what is potentially effective and what isn't. Coupled with some experience and decent skill, these are my conclusions and observations. I try to maintain a friend list of great players and watch videos often, too, so I can benefit from others (it's why I joined SRK). I'm pretty sure I've got a lot ofthis figured out, but I'm not claiming to know it all.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Ok, I'll try to break it down. Of all things, Ken's super is probably the worst thing he has going for him. First of all, it's in the category of vertical, which is inferior (as opposed to the horizontal ones like Boxer's/Ryu's. Honda has the worst super, which is an exception I guess). Ken's super is ok when you read a jump-in well or chip 'em out but that's sort of antithetical to his aggressive nature. You can combo it off of crouching light kick but it's hard so not very practical unless you're really consistent with it. You've just gotta get really close to the opponent, and when the opponent is recovering or about to release a move-- and even THEN, you might be in trouble recovering after it; you gotta be right up next to them. Sagat's is like this too.

    Yeah I think Ken's regular srk wins or at least generally trades in his favor vs. Ryu's wake-up srk. Boxer's buffalo headbutt wins out though I think, so have to adjust but getting the knockdown/scoring another is the trick. btw is "med SK" = srk? Jab srk is generally the best one, I think that's still true in HDR. (unlike SF4/Alpha games where mid punch srk is invincible at the start)

    re: "rapidfire" srk, maybe I should clarify a reasonably close distance. From around full screen you can try baiting games with it if the opponent is too far to punish the first one. But that gets into prediction, and not simply reacting to it whiff.

    The airgrab? Usually it's not really employed at all, and Ken just gets it by accident when he tries to go for the air attack (jumping mid kick?) but the opponent jumped unexpectedly in air-throw range. Not scary.

    Repeated knee bash grabs are a big threat, if you can do them. Few players can esp. consistently on HDR (online anyway).

    Ken's tatsu is not very good, generally- Ryu's knocks down and that really distinguishes them the most of all. Ken's has to be handled with care, with the idea of dizzying the opponent in that ol' eggbeater but you take a fairly big risk each try cause, just because you might get the first hit with it, doesn't mean you won't be vulnerable before you finish it. Ken can juice kick a little easier in the air, which can be a pain for tall characters but even that's not that big a deal.

    His overhead is a tool, but generally slow- if the opponent gets hit by this, Ken is usually in pretty good shape but pretty easy to block correctly on reaction. His crazy kicks are pretty gimicky-- fun to land, but generally too risky to try. Good Kens can use standing big kick effectively, but those ones where you do the fireball motion and press kick? (power kicks I think they were called) Those are the riskiest and LOOK cool if you manage to land it, cause it pushes the opponent all the way across the screen kinda, but don't really do much damage and are it's so easy to hit him out of those when he tries.

    here's per-character comments- btw my rankings are how each char stacks up overall, not necessarily, Zangief beats all characters below him. --Actually, in Zangief's case, that is probably true though, maybe has some trouble vs. honda/fei? Anyway:

    Vs. Honda- Honda will have trouble with slow fireballs, basically. But he's also got the ability to cancel them out with the headbutt, so can get in, OR in enough to a distance that he can trade and that will be in Honda's favor. Oh Ken wants to jump in aggressively? Honda's got a headbutt waiting. He might have to slog it out patiently but it's not a lost cause for Honda.

    Vs. Dictator- I only saw a few dictators on HDR. The Remix devil's reverse I think has some extra potential to keep opponents guessing or even shut down. Dictator's standing mid/big kicks are pretty good weapons, with good range. Makes Ken think twice about fireballing so much.

    Vs. DeeJay- Start playing as DeeJay btw! his normals are "insanely good" as kuroppi put it recently. Mr Tuttle made the transition, having started out as a Ken and would have some insight to making the switch. DeeJay has the most tools (e.g. 4 special moves!)-- and almost all of them have excessively good practical use. DeeJay can whittle Ken down, or cause huge damage on a knockdown close enough for cross-up attempts (best cross up with mid kick, most ambiguous in the game, I think that's still true for HDR?). I think even his super was improved over classic's, i.e. when opponent blocks it, DeeJay is not as vulnerable. Simple things too, like sonic booms and slides, occasional upkicks. He can combo the easiest I think? Again, very practical combos too. Even his crouching MID kick knocks down! WTF??! Who else's MID kick knocks anyone down?? Mix that up with slides, how can you possibly go wrong with this character? Well, they could always pick:

    Vs. Fei Long- in HDR? Fei Long has many things to push Ken around. He can juggle with three different moves like Sagat can. Fei has one of the best supers, after Boxer's. The chicken wing can shut down opponents and is dangerous to attempt countering it. Probably my biggest complaint with Fei in HDR. He can combo fairly easily, with rekkas that have quick and FAR reach, he's suddenly right in Ken's face. Very dangerous potential from just one good jump in- air attack, standing big punch waaaCHAUU into rekkas.

    Vs. Ryu- The biggest difference is the tatsu. Ryu's knocks down, and Ken's doesn't which is a weakness. Ryu's overhead is much more of a mixup threat eg opponent waking up. Ryu's super is better. Ryu's juggle is a lot more practical. I think Ryu does more damage generally, but that's not the big deal. Other than that, you have essentially the same character with the same moves. Ryu will have to be careful on getting up, and not reversal if Ken might, that's one thing I guess but don't have to reversal, maybe he uses cr. light kick if ken tries to sneak in grabs to mix it up, which usually counters but something Ken could have an advantage. That and the juice kick easier to get out, but if Ryu can do it consistently, watch out!

    Against beginner Ken's that just flail and throw out wonton srk attacks etc- what goes up must come down. Even in lag, you can usually adjust the timing to compensate after a few games. (easier said than done! sucks that you not only miss inflicting damage, but for trying to do the right thing you GET hit in lag, but make sure to keep in mind that Ken really isn't such a big threat, esp with most players... it's like Akuma really, the worst players pick him and don't really exploit his brokenness.) Chun has walk-up throws- even when she's about to die, and opponent has half life, that's about even I'd say, because she can walk up and threaten w/ mid punch throw- two in a row is about all you need, with a slightly early mid punch out of throw range that catches them, but just press on for the throws (walk up mid punch, whether in-range or not, that's your mixup basically, when you're going to press the button) because they take off about as much as an SPD and she walks so fast. Voltechs was a good Chun player and really got into the fun part, would be good to ask. he made at least one video of Remix Chun. Chun's diagonally jumping weak kick is one of the most annoying, simple tactics to employ in the entire game. Her 3 hit combos can be pretty practical too. her upkicks got weakened a lot in Remix, can't say much for them on startup, and her aerial spin kicks are fun but gimicky and leave her vulnerable too much.

    And pay no attention to these forums because this is all just theory fighter and, even if I have any clue about what I'm talking about, hard to really know unless it's tested against good players in actual rounds, with all the nuances of timing etc. (But make ABSOLUTELY sure to watch ST event at Evo this year, either in person or on stream, as there's bound to be greatness exhibited!)
  • carn114carn114 Joined: Posts: 81
    Wow, great conversation for a dead game. Thanks for contributing! (And yes, ST at EVO this year is going to be amazing!)

    I still do think Ken's double LP srk is a valid technique for offline play, but not abusable. Maybe a once or twice per set type of thing. Worth a try late in a match when you have your opponent thinking about other things. I still see it in high level offline matches occassionally. But, I also do agree that it's not an important tool for Ken, and shouldn't affect his tier placing that much.

    OK, so in tier conversations, I think you kinda have to ignore execution and lag issues. They just introduce too many variables to the whole thing that can't be controlled, making the entire idea of a tier list pretty much meaningless. Practically? Yes, execution and lag are a huge part of things. But in general matchup conversations about which character is 'better on paper', it needs to be left out. A tier list or matchup analysis needs to be taken from the perspective of both players being top level, making no executional, timing, or spacing mistakes or miss-judgements. This effectively removes lag and execution from the equation, as it should be.

    So, for Zangief, this makes him stronger. But, you can't use accidental SPDs as an argument for tier placing. Forward hop is great practically, but it doesn't have any invincibility and it's priority is really bad (in my experience). He can eat any poke or fireball thrown at him, pushing him right back where he came from. Green hand and lariat are good tools to deal with fireballs practically, but not excellent. Green hand has slow startup before it can cancel a fireball, the whole time making him vulnerable to many attacks. Lariat is punishable by sweep by most characters, and in other ways by some characters. Even after a fireball is thrown in some cases. Zangief basically has to jump to create mindgames to get his opponent to freeze in the footsie games (to be ready to anti-air) to make any of these mentioned tools worthwhile and usable. Every time he jumps in range of an opponent, he is vulnerable. His sweep is a great tool with great priority. It's the bane of Guile's cr.mk (because that move has terrible priority if you look at the hitbox for it). But it's very slow and vulnerable to whiff punishing. My argument is that a Zangief player with perfect spacing and perfect execution will still get zoned out all day by a Ken or Ryu (or even Guile) with perfect spacing and execution. Zangiefs absolutely best bet is to take risks to get in, and cause a guessing game that can lead to huge damage. But, he has to guess right at all ranges. That's why he's bottom tier, in my opinion.

    That being said, practically, especially online, those guessing games are terrifyingly effective! But it's all to do with the human element, and not to do with the character's technical capabilities. That's why I said the player has to be 'better' to win with Zangief. He needs more technical spacing ability, or more matchup knowledge, or more luck than the other player to win, and that's about what it boils down to. In real practice, Zangief is good, and more and more so the further away from tip-top level play he gets. So, he's not top tier, even if you and me, and many other people get bodied by him online (no shame in guessing wrong and not having perfect spacing and execution).

    For Ken, perfectly executed knee loops are extremely difficult to get out of. It's as close to an overpowered technique as there is in this game. One tick throw or safe jump could be the end of the round. Also, having an invincible reversal that you don't have to charge gives him an edge in many pressure matchups that other charge characters just don't have a good way to deal with. Matchups like Blanka, and Gief, or even Claw, where you have to deal with constant high-low pressure just got much easier. In any pressure situation, one correctly guessed srk could change the tide of the match. That's a huge tool that other charge characters that you put ahead of him just don't have. Guile, Blanka, Dee Jay, Honda just can't do this because they have to charge down to get their reversal, and can't do that without eating a jump in attack. He has a fireball, which puts him up there on it's own. It's not the best fireball in the game, but it's also not the worst. It's perfectly usable for zoning non-fireball characters and can even be used for some abbreviated meaty fireball traps in the corner. I would agree that ground tatsu is not great, but has it's uses. Air tatsu is awesome to change air trajectory which creates more opportunities for crossup pressure, very important against charge characters. The very fact that it doesn't knockdown makes it STRONGER for Ken in this situation as it sets up a tick knee bash attempt on block AND hit. I would agree that overhead is a nice option to have, but is so slow that it can be blocked on reaction by a skilled opponent. Also would agree that super isn't that great, but at the highest levels of execution, being able to hit confirm into it is extremely valuable. Solid play can give him the advantage against a good chunk of the cast. He does well against charge characters for the most part, and characters without fireballs.

    Also, I agree that you should definitely play Dee Jay. In my opinion, he's right up there with Boxer for best charge character in the game. I also think Honda is stupid good in HDR, mostly because of the jab headbutt eating fireballs. But his play style isn't for everyone, as it really dumbs the game down, much like Old Sagat in ST. Not much fun to play IMO.

    Fighting Game Journal - http://carn114.livejournal.com/
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    @carn114 Thanks for the post, however I'm going to be obstinate about some points. First off, I think it might help if I referenced Thelo's great piece on making the critical distinction between PREDICTION vs. REACTION:
    http://shoryuken.com/2012/07/19/lost-strategy-series-quick-guide-to-reaction-based-defense-by-thelo/ (TLDR version: basically you want to react more, and predict less.)

    Ken's double/rapidfire srk: It's prediction, and risky because it is easy to punish. Yes, you do see consecutive srk's offline, but less than online because they will get punished more, and are less scary to offline players. But yes, many Kens still employ it- it's Ken's natural style, and one of the best Ken's if not the best of all time is known for his unique "Dragon Dance" where he can get away with a 3rd and 4th consecutive srk in a row. I have gotten caught up in that more than once, even playing as conservatively as I possibly can, and it is like some kind of optical illusion. But offhand, I don't think anyone else can get away with it. And Guile's low mid kick is a fantastic counter- it comes out fast, and is very long/far reaching. My complaint about online habits of it involve many cases where I'm sitting right there, at sweep range, and try to low mid kick the recovery of the first srk-- but GET hit by the second. I'm sure the Ken player is thinking, "I totally tricked him". But I've played that enough offline to know my timing was fine, it was the lag. (making such distinctions is often tempting but not always attributable to lag!) And if someone only plays online, they'd reasonably conclude that Ken is scary.
    carn114 wrote: »
    But, you can't use accidental SPDs as an argument for tier placing.

    I most certainly can, and will! I think they fit squarely into the definition of "option select", at a minimum. It won't make much sense for Zangief to NOT employ at least the option, because it won't hurt him if he does get comboed by a 2nd hit, and it also will not hurt him if he is able to accomplish whatever he was trying to do in the first. It becomes well worth accepting a jumping attack (eg Ryu's hard kick/punch), in exchange for an SPD right after it. And it has to do with the Execution in this case, because the Remix SPD motion allows for SPD, and does not require Zangief to go to an up direction (i.e. risk jumping, see below also). If Zangief sack throws you w/normal throw, that's not exactly ideal either, but it's more that, I think you're getting accidentally SPD'd. Many of Remix's easier-inputs-design are somewhat self-defeating in this respect, and you get things you didn't really want, beneficial or not. In fact, the Remix designer said something like, "I've never thrown an opponent and been unhappy about it [therefore accidental victories are a good thing]" but my response was, yes you have, when you intended to combo them instead. Anyway, if I think I might get sack-SPD'd, intentionally or not, I'll tend to jump in less. btw I'm not 100% totally sure this is what is happening, and it MIGHT be the lag but I doubt it-- because I do not see this happen in Classic (at least, not as frequently) where it would certainly help Zangief out a lot more; anyway I'm willing to test all this stuff out if anyone doubts me.
    carn114 wrote: »
    Forward hop is great practically, but it doesn't have any invincibility and it's priority is really bad (in my experience).

    True, if you can see it coming, it's easily punishable. But what you see guys do is a ton of lariats, and this paired together. I think both the lariat(s?) as well as this move got improved over Classic and the effect is much scarier than Classic ever was (to be fair, the hop was often done by accident and I don't think has much use in ST).
    carn114 wrote: »
    He can eat any poke or fireball thrown at him, pushing him right back where he came from.
    Green hand and lariat are good tools to deal with fireballs practically, but not excellent. Green hand has slow startup before it can cancel a fireball, the whole time making him vulnerable to many attacks.

    No way- not fireballs. Way off on this point.

    The Lariat goes through fireballs. Even in Classic, this is a major reason he is not only evenly-matched with Ryu, but even slightly ahead (very slightly). When it is not feasible to lariat (eg you didn't expect a fireball until it starts appearing) you can block it safely, if not at Zangief's advantage. But it is not any threat, certainly not abuseable and the lariat beats it. If Zangief is getting shut down by fireballs, the Ryu is better at guessing. Lariat RIGHT THROUGH them.

    Green hand is also good, and seems quickened over Classic (can't remember or be sure, maybe it's just everything else). Just not to be used too late or too close (where won't hit opponent). It didn't take long for most Zangief players to get the hang of when and when not to use Green Hand. Yet another option, both good and dependable, esp the lariat which can be classified as "excellent" to counter a fireball.
    carn114 wrote: »
    Lariat is punishable by sweep by most characters, and in other ways by some characters. Even after a fireball is thrown in some cases.

    Yes, the lariat is punishable by sweep-- but given that Zangief has the hop, he can use it just out of sweep range, come in and go out, and punish the sweep attempt fairly easily. The lariats seem too good when I play, but that could have to do with the lag, would have to test it offline with someone somehow. But "even a fireball in some cases"?? If you really think so please describe any such situation. I'm trying to imagine how it'd be possible... coming out of the lariat's last spin? Zangief would have had to have already gone through the fireball. But you're saying the fireball character somehow caught up to Zangief BEFORE it finishes, and gotten out a sweep? I'm thinking Zangief can react by blocking (start holding down back before it finishes) and be perfectly safe. If not, hit the sweep attempt with the final spin of the lariat.
    carn114 wrote: »
    My argument is that a Zangief player with perfect spacing and perfect execution will still get zoned out all day by a Ken or Ryu (or even Guile) with perfect spacing and execution. Zangiefs absolutely best bet is to take risks to get in, and cause a guessing game that can lead to huge damage. But, he has to guess right at all ranges. That's why he's bottom tier, in my opinion.

    Guile is much better against Zangief than Ryu/Ken, and the low mid kick is a big reason. But Zangief has the advantage over all. A lot of his Remix strategy revolves around repeated lariats which are generally safe, because opponents will have to walk up to sweep. Zangief can easily force guesses on his opponents, whereas with the same moves in Classic, Zangief was forced TO guess. Better recovery times, no accidental hops, and improvements led to this. This means he can manage his risks very well and in many cases, not take many risks at all esp starting up lariats from outside.
    carn114 wrote: »
    That being said, practically, especially online, those guessing games are terrifyingly effective! But it's all to do with the human element, and not to do with the character's technical capabilities. That's why I said the player has to be 'better' to win with Zangief. He needs more technical spacing ability, or more matchup knowledge, or more luck than the other player to win, and that's about what it boils down to. In real practice, Zangief is good, and more and more so the further away from tip-top level play he gets. So, he's not top tier, even if you and me, and many other people get bodied by him online (no shame in guessing wrong and not having perfect spacing and execution).

    This has everything to do with the characters' capabilities, and very little to do with the human element. If you can perform his moves in a real round, and you just do a lot of lariats as your strategic basis and branch out from there, you will get pretty far with Zangief compared to any other character. The difference between Remix and Classic make this clear- it is night and day. In Classic, he definitely needs expertise in technical spacing ability etc. but not in Remix, where he has safe attacks with better recover, and can exploit that to easily bully opponents into the corner. In Remix he is not guessing nearly as much, but forcing that on his opponents.
    carn114 wrote: »
    For Ken, perfectly executed knee loops are extremely difficult to get out of. It's as close to an overpowered technique as there is in this game. One tick throw or safe jump could be the end of the round. Also, having an invincible reversal that you don't have to charge gives him an edge in many pressure matchups that other charge characters just don't have a good way to deal with. Matchups like Blanka, and Gief, or even Claw, where you have to deal with constant high-low pressure just got much easier. In any pressure situation, one correctly guessed srk could change the tide of the match. That's a huge tool that other charge characters that you put ahead of him just don't have. Guile, Blanka, Dee Jay, Honda just can't do this because they have to charge down to get their reversal, and can't do that without eating a jump in attack. He has a fireball, which puts him up there on it's own. It's not the best fireball in the game, but it's also not the worst. It's perfectly usable for zoning non-fireball characters and can even be used for some abbreviated meaty fireball traps in the corner. I would agree that ground tatsu is not great, but has it's uses. Air tatsu is awesome to change air trajectory which creates more opportunities for crossup pressure, very important against charge characters. The very fact that it doesn't knockdown makes it STRONGER for Ken in this situation as it sets up a tick knee bash attempt on block AND hit. I would agree that overhead is a nice option to have, but is so slow that it can be blocked on reaction by a skilled opponent. Also would agree that super isn't that great, but at the highest levels of execution, being able to hit confirm into it is extremely valuable. Solid play can give him the advantage against a good chunk of the cast. He does well against charge characters for the most part, and characters without fireballs.

    Also, I agree that you should definitely play Dee Jay. In my opinion, he's right up there with Boxer for best charge character in the game. I also think Honda is stupid good in HDR, mostly because of the jab headbutt eating fireballs. But his play style isn't for everyone, as it really dumbs the game down, much like Old Sagat in ST. Not much fun to play IMO.

    Most characters have some invincible(-enough) reversal move, except for Dhalsim and Dictator. For charge characters, sometimes you just have to block. I think that sort of thing is generally considered to be offset by easier inputs for charge moves.

    vs. Blanka: Ken didn't have trouble in Classic, but Blanka has lots of strengths now to get in. Nobody really plays Blanka on Remix so it's hard to see examples of this but Blanka has lots of options to get around Ken's fireball. Bullies block blank balls. The Rainbow arc ball isn't gimmicky like in Classic. Just as long as he doesn't get accidental electricity out, but that doesn't matter so much of course because it will still get a hit, just not the combo/throw you might have intended.

    vs. Gief, he'll get lariated if he fireballs too much. Actually, he'll get lariated anyway, nevermind.

    vs. Claw this is still a tough match for Ken. His big punch SRK is effective against wall dives, either to hit or escape but Claw just has to mix it up a little more. Claw's wall dive puts him head and shoulders above just about anyone, but he also has great ground tools including corner traps. the wall dive is like a corner trap, in that you force the opp to guess, but can be done from most distances _except_ the corner when it gets really nasty. Ken's not a bad counter to try and beat Claw though, all in all compared to most other chars.

    vs. Guile, I put them in the same tier. Maybe Ken has the upper hand here with his attacks, like faster tatsu over sonic booms? Anyway, seems about even.

    vs. DeeJay, DeeJay as a character is MUCH much better at "changing the tide of the match", as his combos are so devastating. Ken has to guess right more on a rampage. DeeJay might have to block and not reversal in a few cases, but that's not necessarily so much of a disadvantage, esp considering all the other strong attacks he has. (Seriously, who's MID kick knocks anyone down??)

    vs. Honda he'll get a lot of his slow fireballs cancelled out by light punch headbutt. Suddenly Honda can get in a lot easier.

    Air tatsu as mixups in crossups? I don't think that's really all that practical, offhand his air tatsu's are generally pretty easy to block on reaction no matter which one aren't they? The knee bash is a threat from it, I'll give you that, but not so much, and not nearly as good as other options. I suspect lag may be at play if someone's exploiting air tatsu to knee bash.
  • TheMrTuttleTheMrTuttle Joined: Posts: 139
    edited July 2014
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    Vs. DeeJay- Start playing as DeeJay btw! his normals are "insanely good" as kuroppi put it recently. Mr Tuttle made the transition, having started out as a Ken and would have some insight to making the switch. DeeJay has the most tools (e.g. 4 special moves!)-- and almost all of them have excessively good practical use. DeeJay can whittle Ken down, or cause huge damage on a knockdown close enough for cross-up attempts (best cross up with mid kick, most ambiguous in the game, I think that's still true for HDR?). I think even his super was improved over classic's, i.e. when opponent blocks it, DeeJay is not as vulnerable. Simple things too, like sonic booms and slides, occasional upkicks. He can combo the easiest I think? Again, very practical combos too. Even his crouching MID kick knocks down! WTF??! Who else's MID kick knocks anyone down?? Mix that up with slides, how can you possibly go wrong with this character? Well, they could always pick:

    For starters, it's a lot easier to execute with DeeJay than Ken, imho. I can pull off cr.lk, cr.lk xx super, all the fun jump-in supers, juice kicks into combos, etc, and DeeJay's waaayyy easier. In HDR, especially, all of DeeJay's high-damage match-turning combos are more reliable due to the more lenient input window for max-hit MGU -- in ST, if you mess up the piano timing, you're left naked, alone, and about to eat shit; it's almost impossible to muck that up in HDR. And, unlike Ken, his super's viable in tricky spots (someone throws a poorly-spaced meaty fireball trying to chip you out, etc) -- I'd go so far as to say that Ken's super is near useless outside of a combo [side note, it's possible to combo into deejay's super, but i can't pull it off].

    That said, just give him a go against the computer for an hour or so. The transition from shoto to charge character takes some getting used to, but that's all it is: some acclimation. You'll get used to, and much more quickly than you'd expect. And as soon as you start getting a feel for it, you'll suddenly have buttons that you can actually use in footsies. Lots of 'em. (cr.lk, cr.mk, cr.mp, cr.fp, s.lk, s.mk, sobat kick, maxout). In fact, I don't think DeeJay has a bad button. I've found one(?) that I don't really know what to do with (j.mp -- maybe use it for neutral jumping fireballs), but other than that, everything's golden.

    If you want to play defensively, DeeJay has plenty of normals to stuff things with, and the battery of s.mp, s.hp, s.mk, s.rh, upkick for AA.

    If you want to play offensively, you can do that too. Zone and find a knockdown, then start your ambiguous crossup/throw game. Should you land a cross-up against a standing opponent, cross-up mk, cr.lp, cr.hp XX MGU is a touch of death, and the -only- hard part of that is the cr.lp, cr.fp link, which you can easily double-tap offline. If you don't like that one, well, *all* of DeeJay's specials are *chain-cancelable* so go nuts.

    Did they block the crossup? Then just cr.lp and tick throw. Do you think they're expecting the tick attempt? then cr.lp, cr.lk XX MGU.

    I started with Ken, and I still play him, and I really enjoy knee bash loops and landing crossups into cr.lk into a crazy kick into a sweep and all that, but probably the best thing I did for my general understanding of SF was to abandon the impulse to SRK and play a character with viable normals, that allowed me to slooooow down and think more about what I was doing.

    DeeJay's Problems -- I've been playing almost only ST for the past year, so take this with a grain of salt:

    * no overhead, though this isn't a huge deal as you still have a low-high mixup game with cr.lk
    * he's realllllly easy to safe-jump, and a bad upkick can ruin your day
    * no good "get off me," so if gief, honda or hawk get you in the corner, you're dead
    * sort of poopy throw range
    * sim is just a really, really bad matchup. claw's apparently 5-5 in ST now, but I don't know how that is (though j.lk can beat dives clean, and cr.lk can stuff poorly-spaced rolls). chun's not too bad in HDR, but in ST that match is really hard.

    Also, I *absolutely* agree with this.
    mrdhalsim wrote:
    vs. DeeJay, DeeJay as a character is MUCH much better at "changing the tide of the match", as his combos are so devastating. Ken has to guess right more on a rampage. DeeJay might have to block and not reversal in a few cases, but that's not necessarily so much of a disadvantage, esp considering all the other strong attacks he has. (Seriously, who's MID kick knocks anyone down??)




  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 257
    I'll respond more in depth to what's been said later, but Ken's Super is not useless outside a comb. It's a fantastic anti-air, punishment, and "hey where you going" if someone jumps back, not to mention as awesome finishing chip move. It's no Balrog, but whatSuper is? Not as practical as Fei, and not as versatile as most any Super, but it is sooo far from useless outside combo that it isn't funny. Great reversal, too, if youre confident enough, and can punish juuust too close fireballs and beatout most Super headd-to-head. The priority is nuts. Not bad at all.
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    edited July 2014
    woow 4 years already?. Well in those 4 years my opinion about HDR Ken has changed... HDR Ken is a solid character, just as good as ryu.

    He is able to deal with characters like chun, boxer and claw, i can only think of Zangief as his worst matchup.

    My opinion is that Ken is well rounded character, no major weakness, he is the perfect mix between st.ken with old ken from super turbo, plus other good buffs, all his dps are viable, great jab dp, invulnerable strong dp on the way up and fierce dp has juggle properties, also he has a very solid short tatsu and you can use the rest of the tatsus as juice kicks, with all that arsenal you don't only have to use kneebash loops to take the glory HDR ken is the ultimate version of Ken in SF2 IMO.

    For more examples, just look at evo 2009, where damdai placed third with HDR Ken and all the tournaments that damdai won using ken .
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  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    His Super? So, he has to pee and poop, otherwise where else would it go, but he can still talk to dolphins whaaaat?

    It's just too vertical. That reminds of another online-favorable factor for Ken, with his Super (and regular big punch DP): when he whiffs, typically overshooting the opponent (going past and landing on the other side of opponent), Ken LANDS REALLY FAST. This is important to note, because of just how much lag affects your ability to punish. Offline, this can happen too, but only occasionally, usually like you didn't expect it to whiff etc. I mean sometimes, you have almost "too much" time to try and decide hm what should I punish that whiff with, maybe I should go for a combo, so I should wait until he lands AW I JUST GOT THROWN I suck, Ken's a monster.

    Yes, the super can anti-air but you're lucky to get three hits of it that way and the recovery time of it all can all too suddenly work out in your opponent's favor. Not the worst super in the game but I don't see how it does him any big favors at all. Whether or not it beats out other supers head-on doesn't matter much either.

    Mid punch srk invincible on the way up? Not a big deal, and I didn't even remember that change all this time because it never really affected my rounds against him (compared to Classic). Matter of fact, looking at his change list for HDR, a couple of things got WEAKER: 1) big kick tatsu has half as much dizzy, which is another thing I never particularly noticed. (but probably necessary with faster ground hk for newer big huge combo-ability). 2) Knee-bash nerfs. maybe that's why I am just not scared of Ken in HDR.

    btw I don't think lag favors Ken the most- probably Honda/Blanka and dictator/boxer too maybe more with lag making it a little more difficult to punish their horizontal charge attacks.

    @Philcito Ken re: "just as good as Ryu" but with all the other chars getting stronger, both chars are relatively close to the bottom. Damdai plays tons of characters, and seems to have leaned towards Ryu since 2009 if anything. Ken is a decent attempt to fight claw esp if the claw player cannot utilize the wall dive to best effect.

    Mr. Tuttle notes a lot of the nuances about learning the character and the game engine itself. I only play as a few characters in HDR, so not to get mixed up when I play Classic but when I face Ken/DeeJay with Ryu (same in both basically) I don't see too many big differences in the character strength, as opposed to effects of lag.
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 257
    The verticality of his Super is limiting but that doesn't make it bad.

    I've never anti-aired with Ken's Super and regretted it, so I don't know about him ending up ina bad spot.

    Mid SRK's full invincibility and huge hitbox make it a very big deal. No reversal or super can be used at a time when he can use it with safety. Bad guesses set you up for a big punish but it makes his reaction game insane, and his good guesses/predictions deadly. Not sure how one may logically argue against it being a fantastic tool, especially in certain matchups (Vega most notably).

    The tatsu's lower stun isn't too bad when you consider he got faster (IIRC) which makes it easier to get in on Guile.

    Lag favors Balrog most heavily IMO.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Fake fireballs are not really faking out as so many people are led to believe.

    Not in the sense that makes them jump where they wouldn't have jumped otherwise. If Ryu does a standing mid punch, it has the same effect because the opponent is not going to make the distinction between the startup of the two moves. Instead, it's more like "Ryu is starting to do something, and probably another fireball so I'll jump" but in the fast pace of the video game like this, the distinction isn't actually discerned.

    I noticed this in some footage of Damdai from 2009 (looking for it after mentioned by Philcito above):
    http://www.ign.com/videos/2009/08/05/evo-09-sf2-hdr-finals-loser-bracket-damdai-v-alex-valle

    Specifically, the time around 4:10 to 4:15 or so. The announcer says "Fake fireball works!" right after it. But as these annotated screenshots demonstrate, Ken had already entered his jump some frames BEFORE Ryu began his fake fireball.

    Incidentally, the fake fireball may have actually saved Ryu, but NOT BECAUSE it caused Ken to jump. It was because it has quicker recovery time in this case. But even then, Ken blocks the subsequent attack. (--which happens to be a super, but probably intended as a srk. In either case, when he hit the button, Ken was able to block at close range.)

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    I was looking for footage of Damdai making use of mid punch SRK. Esp. against claw I think he wants to stick with big punch, or small punch srk. The big one gets him farther away to escape the wall dive better, escape it or if not, come out on the side that will hit it. (Vega still has the edge, probably in HDR too I'd say.) I don't think his hitbox for midpunch srk is so big/special. His reaction game is not insane at all, in fact it's generally lack luster and his most dangerous nature is aggressively taking risks. Even when the risks work out well, as I noticed from footage, the damage isn't all that great so not even all that deadly. The best Kens usually have to make successive prediction guesses in a row.

  • Super1NYCSuper1NYC Superior Fighters 1nc (SF1) Joined: Posts: 612
  • carn114carn114 Joined: Posts: 81
    @mrdhalsim‌ I get where you're coming from with a lot of your points, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree for a lot of them.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    @carn114 Thanks for the post, however I'm going to be obstinate about some points. First off, I think it might help if I referenced Thelo's great piece on making the critical distinction between PREDICTION vs. REACTION:
    http://shoryuken.com/2012/07/19/lost-strategy-series-quick-guide-to-reaction-based-defense-by-thelo/ (TLDR version: basically you want to react more, and predict less.)
    I did actually read that article a long time ago, and it is a good one. The point I'm trying to make has to do with the "You only have a finite amount of focus" section of that article. Late in a match, or when the opponent is thinking of other setups, you can use the double SRKs, because his focus might be divided enough to not catch the SRK whiff in time to punish properly. The 2nd will hit the punish attempt. LP SRK is quick enough to do that offline occasionally. It's a tool that yields a knockdown. Can't be used often, but it's legit and effective in the right situations. A do mostly agree with everything else you said on the topic, though.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    I most certainly can, and will! I think they fit squarely into the definition of "option select", at a minimum. It won't make much sense for Zangief to NOT employ at least the option, because it won't hurt him if he does get comboed by a 2nd hit, and it also will not hurt him if he is able to accomplish whatever he was trying to do in the first. It becomes well worth accepting a jumping attack (eg Ryu's hard kick/punch), in exchange for an SPD right after it. And it has to do with the Execution in this case, because the Remix SPD motion allows for SPD, and does not require Zangief to go to an up direction (i.e. risk jumping, see below also). If Zangief sack throws you w/normal throw, that's not exactly ideal either, but it's more that, I think you're getting accidentally SPD'd. Many of Remix's easier-inputs-design are somewhat self-defeating in this respect, and you get things you didn't really want, beneficial or not. In fact, the Remix designer said something like, "I've never thrown an opponent and been unhappy about it [therefore accidental victories are a good thing]" but my response was, yes you have, when you intended to combo them instead. Anyway, if I think I might get sack-SPD'd, intentionally or not, I'll tend to jump in less. btw I'm not 100% totally sure this is what is happening, and it MIGHT be the lag but I doubt it-- because I do not see this happen in Classic (at least, not as frequently) where it would certainly help Zangief out a lot more; anyway I'm willing to test all this stuff out if anyone doubts me.
    I don't really think a lot of those SPDs are accidental. I will grant to you that many of these players are getting SPDs MUCH more often than they would with a full 360 motion. But a half circle motion is still pretty specific for it to happen as often as you suspect. Besides, high level players will not be getting accidental anything 99% of the time, so I don't think it affects tier ranking at all. If anything, it gives a nice little option select to use, but the option select is not that powerful, IMO, because SPD still has a whiff animation, so it's not safe to guess with. You could eat a well timed followup combo for your trouble, or a whiff punish at a well-spaced long range jump in.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    True, if you can see it coming, it's easily punishable. But what you see guys do is a ton of lariats, and this paired together. I think both the lariat(s?) as well as this move got improved over Classic and the effect is much scarier than Classic ever was (to be fair, the hop was often done by accident and I don't think has much use in ST).
    Well, the hop is better now at getting over low attacks, and the lariats were improved on startup only (according to documentation). For the startup to matter on lariat, it would have to be at a pretty close range, and at that range, it's mostly a guess by Zangief. The Gief player can't just throw out mixed up hops and lariats without getting whiff punished to death just about 100% of the time at high level play.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    No way- not fireballs. Way off on this point.

    The Lariat goes through fireballs. Even in Classic, this is a major reason he is not only evenly-matched with Ryu, but even slightly ahead (very slightly). When it is not feasible to lariat (eg you didn't expect a fireball until it starts appearing) you can block it safely, if not at Zangief's advantage. But it is not any threat, certainly not abuseable and the lariat beats it. If Zangief is getting shut down by fireballs, the Ryu is better at guessing. Lariat RIGHT THROUGH them.

    Green hand is also good, and seems quickened over Classic (can't remember or be sure, maybe it's just everything else). Just not to be used too late or too close (where won't hit opponent). It didn't take long for most Zangief players to get the hang of when and when not to use Green Hand. Yet another option, both good and dependable, esp the lariat which can be classified as "excellent" to counter a fireball.
    I'm well aware that lariat goes through projectiles. But it still doesn't give the Gief player much of an advantage other than maybe advancing a bit on the zoner. Getting too close when lariating through a projectile puts you at risk of being punished as you finish the lariat, in a situation with a fast recovering fireball, or later lariat than you wanted. Staying away, or footsying your way in and out of range doesn't accomplish much, except for avoiding chip damage. Could be good against slower recovering fireballs like Ryu's or Dee Jay's though.

    FWIW, I consider "excellent" fireball counters stuff like supers that go through them, slides that go under, and Guiles boom to backfist punish, all of which are super reliable and do damage.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    Yes, the lariat is punishable by sweep-- but given that Zangief has the hop, he can use it just out of sweep range, come in and go out, and punish the sweep attempt fairly easily. The lariats seem too good when I play, but that could have to do with the lag, would have to test it offline with someone somehow. But "even a fireball in some cases"?? If you really think so please describe any such situation. I'm trying to imagine how it'd be possible... coming out of the lariat's last spin? Zangief would have had to have already gone through the fireball. But you're saying the fireball character somehow caught up to Zangief BEFORE it finishes, and gotten out a sweep? I'm thinking Zangief can react by blocking (start holding down back before it finishes) and be perfectly safe. If not, hit the sweep attempt with the final spin of the lariat.
    I'm mostly talking about fast recovering projectiles like sonic boom, or Sim's fireball, or when Gief spins late on a slow fireball from Ryu or Ken at the right distance. The later of which likely won't happen much with a good Gief, admittedly.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    Guile is much better against Zangief than Ryu/Ken, and the low mid kick is a big reason. But Zangief has the advantage over all. A lot of his Remix strategy revolves around repeated lariats which are generally safe, because opponents will have to walk up to sweep. Zangief can easily force guesses on his opponents, whereas with the same moves in Classic, Zangief was forced TO guess. Better recovery times, no accidental hops, and improvements led to this. This means he can manage his risks very well and in many cases, not take many risks at all esp starting up lariats from outside.
    Hop is a good tool now, but you still have to guess to use it. Lariat was improved only on startup from what I can tell. I don't see how this changes matchups from that much from classic.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    This has everything to do with the characters' capabilities, and very little to do with the human element. If you can perform his moves in a real round, and you just do a lot of lariats as your strategic basis and branch out from there, you will get pretty far with Zangief compared to any other character. The difference between Remix and Classic make this clear- it is night and day. In Classic, he definitely needs expertise in technical spacing ability etc. but not in Remix, where he has safe attacks with better recover, and can exploit that to easily bully opponents into the corner. In Remix he is not guessing nearly as much, but forcing that on his opponents.
    And this is where we disagree. I'm just not convinced with what was said, that this is actually the case. Online as a beginner, outside of high level play, you might be right. But that's not what tier lists are created from. It might be easier to win with him at first, but as you and your competition improve, Zangief gets worse and worse.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    Most characters have some invincible(-enough) reversal move, except for Dhalsim and Dictator. For charge characters, sometimes you just have to block. I think that sort of thing is generally considered to be offset by easier inputs for charge moves.
    Totally agree, but this is a huge weakness of charge characters vs srk characters. Rabbit Gief, Blanka, or Claw in the corner is about as close to a sure loss as there is in this game if you rely on charge to get out of it.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    vs. Guile, I put them in the same tier. Maybe Ken has the upper hand here with his attacks, like faster tatsu over sonic booms? Anyway, seems about even.
    Guile has trouble with Ken's crossups too. But you are right. In this particular matchup, I'd say close to even with Ken a bit above. Still, even matchup does not mean they are on the same tier. In my opinion, Guile has some much harder matchups across the rest of the cast than Ken does, putting Ken solidly above him in the tier listing.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    vs. DeeJay, DeeJay as a character is MUCH much better at "changing the tide of the match", as his combos are so devastating. Ken has to guess right more on a rampage. DeeJay might have to block and not reversal in a few cases, but that's not necessarily so much of a disadvantage, esp considering all the other strong attacks he has. (Seriously, who's MID kick knocks anyone down??)
    I would be Dee Jay solidly above Ken in the tier rankings, but I think this matchup is pretty close to even. Ken's combos are devastating too. He has some ways of dealing with Dee Jay's jump pressure, and can cause crossup pressure of his own.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    vs. Honda he'll get a lot of his slow fireballs cancelled out by light punch headbutt. Suddenly Honda can get in a lot easier.
    Absolutely agree. But also true against every fireball character. And with everything that gave non-fireball characters trouble with Honda, I think Honda may be the best character in this game. So it doesn't affect Ken's tier standing much.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    Air tatsu as mixups in crossups? I don't think that's really all that practical, offhand his air tatsu's are generally pretty easy to block on reaction no matter which one aren't they? The knee bash is a threat from it, I'll give you that, but not so much, and not nearly as good as other options. I suspect lag may be at play if someone's exploiting air tatsu to knee bash.
    Fair enough. It's tough, but it's still useable. Being able to change your jump trajectory and crossup still counts for a lot in this game, though I think. Plus, air tatsu is also good in air to air situations, I think.

    Fighting Game Journal - http://carn114.livejournal.com/
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    carn114 wrote: »
    @mrdhalsim‌ I get where you're coming from with a lot of your points, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree for a lot of them.

    I cannot agree to disagree on much of these points. I will try to focus on just the objective things here, because there are clearly things that aren't really opinion or personal views. Some things in the game are just easier to do and provide greater advantage than other things.
    carn114 wrote: »
    I don't really think a lot of those SPDs are accidental. I will grant to you that many of these players are getting SPDs MUCH more often than they would with a full 360 motion. But a half circle motion is still pretty specific for it to happen as often as you suspect. Besides, high level players will not be getting accidental anything 99% of the time, so I don't think it affects tier ranking at all. If anything, it gives a nice little option select to use, but the option select is not that powerful, IMO, because SPD still has a whiff animation, so it's not safe to guess with. You could eat a well timed followup combo for your trouble, or a whiff punish at a well-spaced long range jump in.

    Ok, maybe they are intentional- I can't say for sure. I'm thinking of a scenario like this basically- Zangief starts the motion for a Green Hand from stand blocking (goes through cr. block), completes it JUST as Ryu hits him with a jump kick that is a bit too far to combo. I'm supposing that, UNINTENTIONALLY, and possibly also due to Zangief dealing with lag himself, Zangief tries to block standing suddenly around this instant (right after the green hand command). Since it is right after the green hand, releasing the button would count for an SPD in Remix I think. It is also possible it is fully intentional, and just comes out easier enough in Remix, and if this is feasible as I'm making it all sound, at least like an option select where Zangief can just instinctively block for situations he tries a green hand but they jump. If all this is valid, it beats jumps AND a projectile he was expecting. In fact I think it wouldn't really lose to sweeps either because opponent (eg Ryu) would have to walk in too far/long from that distance and green hand would recover. If that's true Z's got a fairly reasonable way to close the distance without much risk.
    carn114 wrote: »
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    True, if you can see it coming, it's easily punishable. But what you see guys do is a ton of lariats, and this paired together. I think both the lariat(s?) as well as this move got improved over Classic and the effect is much scarier than Classic ever was (to be fair, the hop was often done by accident and I don't think has much use in ST).
    Well, the hop is better now at getting over low attacks, and the lariats were improved on startup only (according to documentation). For the startup to matter on lariat, it would have to be at a pretty close range, and at that range, it's mostly a guess by Zangief. The Gief player can't just throw out mixed up hops and lariats without getting whiff punished to death just about 100% of the time at high level play.

    Well, I don't know what you mean exactly by high level play, but if you pick Zangief and just do a lot of lariats, you'll probably beat all that. Forget about the hops, I think that is confusing things here. The hop is not even necessary actually, and all you really need to know about it is that you DON'T get it by accident when you want to do other moves. That's a good thing. It also happens to be very, very effective at getting over sweep attempts, but that's just another good thing. If you do mostly just the lariats, you're fine. I saw the change list recently, and I'm pretty sure at least one of the lariats avoids low attacks completely. So something that hits high, and avoids low punishes on start-up. You can move backwards/forwards while doing it. And while you're moving backwards, you're hitbox is getting bigger and bigger with each spin. Lariats, eh? yup.

    carn114 wrote: »
    I'm well aware that lariat goes through projectiles. But it still doesn't give the Gief player much of an advantage other than maybe advancing a bit on the zoner. Getting too close when lariating through a projectile puts you at risk of being punished as you finish the lariat, in a situation with a fast recovering fireball, or later lariat than you wanted. Staying away, or footsying your way in and out of range doesn't accomplish much, except for avoiding chip damage. Could be good against slower recovering fireballs like Ryu's or Dee Jay's though.

    Respectfully, I'd like to promote more awareness. The whole "maybe advancing a bit on the zoner" thing is huge for Zangief, that's what he's all about. Get in, so he can SPD, that's it. Maybe's count for a lot, because once he's in, there's also another maybe he might stay there. So he can do another SPD etc.

    You said "fireball" originally, so I thought you meant Ken/Ryu. DeeJay is completely different and getting past his projectile,-slide,/occasionally cr. mid kick mixup is a whole other ball of wax (and harder than dealing with Ryu). Against Ryu's fireball, the lariat is great-- it's fantastic. Ryu can't really do much after Zangief lariats through a fireball, in terms of punishing it. Even if Zangief is in the corner, if Zangief doesn't punish Ryu, Zangief is pretty safe.
    carn114 wrote: »
    FWIW, I consider "excellent" fireball counters stuff like supers that go through them, slides that go under, and Guiles boom to backfist punish, all of which are super reliable and do damage.

    All of those examples you gave are no better than lariats. The damage is about the same if not slightly more than any one of them, not vulnerable to sweeps on startup, it lets Zangief closer where he wants to be. Lariats in HDR are more reliable than they are too, and certainly no worse.
    carn114 wrote: »
    I'm mostly talking about fast recovering projectiles like sonic boom, or Sim's fireball, or when Gief spins late on a slow fireball from Ryu or Ken at the right distance. The later of which likely won't happen much with a good Gief, admittedly.

    And I'm saying that the later won't happen because it doesn't _matter_ whether the Gief is good or not. Ryu or Ken can't fireball, have it sidestepped by lariat, and then somehow punish Zangief.
    carn114 wrote: »
    Hop is a good tool now, but you still have to guess to use it. Lariat was improved only on startup from what I can tell. I don't see how this changes matchups from that much from classic.

    Oh from Classic? It is night and day. Zangief ranks very close to the bottom of the rung in Classic, but AT the top in HDR. There are multiple reasons for this. (And multiple reasons for just one move like the hop, being not only much-less-accidental, but also a great option to get in.) "only on startup" counts for a lot more-- and you were arguing for double SRK validity? Lariats are easier to do in HDR, and become like SRKs (also powerful on startup) in HDR compared to Classic. Plus all the other improvements of course.

    Many people know that Zangief can wrestle bears. In Remix, Zangief can still wrestle bears, but if you camping with him in the woods, and you see a bear, he NOW has the option of taking your shoes, while wearing his own. You've been camping for a few days, starting to smell bad, both of you losing your finite amount of focus etc. But finite amount of focus doesn't really matter to Zangief because he doesn't HAVE to wrestle the bear, you see, and he does not even have to outrun it. All he has to outrun is you.

    And if you go up against Remix Zangief expecting the Classic version, there is a line from the film "Scared Straight" about shoes that will quickly apply.
    carn114 wrote: »
    And this is where we disagree. I'm just not convinced with what was said, that this is actually the case. Online as a beginner, outside of high level play, you might be right. But that's not what tier lists are created from. It might be easier to win with him at first, but as you and your competition improve, Zangief gets worse and worse.

    What I'm saying applies to high level, low level-- whatever.
    carn114 wrote: »
    Totally agree, but this is a huge weakness of charge characters vs srk characters. Rabbit Gief, Blanka, or Claw in the corner is about as close to a sure loss as there is in this game if you rely on charge to get out of it.

    I... am not even sure what you mean by that. That those 3 characters lose in the corner? limited by their charge moves?? Claw doesn't really lose to many characters period, and although there are some guessing games to try and keep him trapped in the corner, it is most DEFINITELY not a sure loss. If you meant Claw's opponent in the corner, that's usually better than anywhere else, incidentally because of the deadly threat of the wall dive. Blanka is a beast in Remix and Gief ... is not a charge character. (??)
    carn114 wrote: »
    I would be Dee Jay solidly above Ken in the tier rankings, but I think this matchup is pretty close to even. Ken's combos are devastating too. He has some ways of dealing with Dee Jay's jump pressure, and can cause crossup pressure of his own.

    Ken's gotta take predictive risks. DeeJay does it all with reaction. Ken can't repeatedly use pokes to intimidate anywhere nearly as well as DeeJay. This applies to all their other matchups, not just theirs. That video I got the screenshots from btw? Ken gets some good predictions using pressure. They impress the crowd because it is evident how much risk he had to take just to accomplish those risky decisions. But for all that display of prediction, it didn't get Ken so much advantage. DeeJay gets a lot more and he can do it by reacting.

    and Honda is not the best in the game. He still should lose to fireballs, and problems of getting around them overall, esp. Ryu's anyway. He may be good against Zangief in particular and even have an edge there, but given Remix I wouldn't count Zangief out even in that match. I think Honda lost some stuff since Classic, would have to check. He's in the middle of the pack where I put him.
  • carn114carn114 Joined: Posts: 81
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    I cannot agree to disagree on much of these points. I will try to focus on just the objective things here, because there are clearly things that aren't really opinion or personal views. Some things in the game are just easier to do and provide greater advantage than other things.
    In regards to SPD, my point is that being "just easier to do" shouldn't matter that much in tier ranking. The best Zangiefs can execute a 360 SPD close to 100% of the time. It also shouldn't be very difficult for them to buffer a 360 during the animation of a green hand, or during hitstun (reversal SPD). You can even end a 360 motion in the back position, and use negative edge. I don't see the huge difference, other than it is easier to do for less experienced players. My guess is your Gief opponent is using the green hand to set up an SPD attempt (buffered SDP during green hand animation), lag makes his timing late, and he ends up still getting the SPD out after hit stun. I don't see how this wouldn't happen in Classic mode as well. At the most, it's not enough to convince me that Gief should not be top tier.

    Regarding lariats, they are improved. And I do see now that having start up invincibility at the feet on startup can be sort of like having a safe SRK, though only invulnerable to low attacks. It's a good tool for Gief, for sure. By "High level play" I mean tournament level. If Zangief is so brain dead easy to lariat his way through matches, why haven't I seen tourney footage of him lariating his way through a whole tournament, or even a few matches? I'd love to see the footage if it exists (not being sarcastic here, as this could settle the issue for good). In Sirlin's blog, he mentions the first changes he made to Zangief's lariats made it a brain dead way to smash your opponent, but they changed it to not be the case. Maybe their changes didn't do the trick?
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    And I'm saying that the later won't happen because it doesn't _matter_ whether the Gief is good or not. Ryu or Ken can't fireball, have it sidestepped by lariat, and then somehow punish Zangief.
    Maybe I'm wrong on this. Certainly wouldn't be the first time. But I could have sworn I've done this with Ryu against Giefs online pretty consistently against lesser players. Maybe they were just failing to block the sweep over and over.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    Oh from Classic? It is night and day. Zangief ranks very close to the bottom of the rung in Classic, but AT the top in HDR. There are multiple reasons for this. (And multiple reasons for just one move like the hop, being not only much-less-accidental, but also a great option to get in.) "only on startup" counts for a lot more-- and you were arguing for double SRK validity? Lariats are easier to do in HDR, and become like SRKs (also powerful on startup) in HDR compared to Classic. Plus all the other improvements of course.
    I never said Lariats weren't valid, just that they weren't strong enough to catapult him to the top tier. Exactly the same as the double SRK. In fact, I will even agree that lariat is much better than double SRK, but doesn't put him top tier. Anyway, this argument would be counter productive to the main point, so I'll drop it here.
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    I... am not even sure what you mean by that. That those 3 characters lose in the corner? limited by their charge moves?? Claw doesn't really lose to many characters period, and although there are some guessing games to try and keep him trapped in the corner, it is most DEFINITELY not a sure loss. If you meant Claw's opponent in the corner, that's usually better than anywhere else, incidentally because of the deadly threat of the wall dive. Blanka is a beast in Remix and Gief ... is not a charge character. (??)
    No, those 3 characters kill charge characters that are stuck in the corner. I meant Claw, Blanka, or Gief has YOUR charge character in the corner, and is rabbit jumping on you. This puts a charge character like Guile at a much higher disadvantage than an SRK character like Ken. It's been this way since ST. Ken can SRK his way out of that pressure at any time. Guile and other charge characters can sometimes really only get out if they have a flash kick charged, and by that time they'll eat a jump in attack (because they are crouching). I probably could have described that situation better.

    And I'm spent. No energy left to argue the Ken vs Dee Jay match, or the Honda stuff. Maybe another day :).

    And FWIW, I don't need to be right, and I don't feel the need to make you wrong, I'm just not convinced from what's been said that Gief is top tier, and Ken is at or toward the bottom. At the end of the day, it's all just opinions, until it's proven with two top players in a high stakes match.

    Thanks again for the conversation, it has been educational.
    Fighting Game Journal - http://carn114.livejournal.com/
  • Super1NYCSuper1NYC Superior Fighters 1nc (SF1) Joined: Posts: 612
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 257
    edited July 2014
    ^^ That's part of what makes Zangief such a top tier. Charge characters that are cornered or knocked down are in trouble, especially Chun who cannot Upkick out of repeated splashes like Deejay can, for example. Zang stomps most competition if you look at it from a "flowchart" type view.

    So I agree with you on Ken but not Zang, and the opposite for MrDhalsim, funnily.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    carn114 wrote: »
    And I'm spent. No energy left to argue the Ken vs Dee Jay match, or the Honda stuff. Maybe another day :).

    And FWIW, I don't need to be right, and I don't feel the need to make you wrong, I'm just not convinced from what's been said that Gief is top tier, and Ken is at or toward the bottom. At the end of the day, it's all just opinions, until it's proven with two top players in a high stakes match.

    Thanks again for the conversation, it has been educational.

    Ok, cool I understand. I will just respond to some of the points then, because again it's not just all opinions at the end of the day, or whether Random "agrees with" me or not. I'm either wrong or right about some things-- in particular, the good options that Zangief has and Ken does not (or that Ken has and just aren't that effective etc).

    I think I understand the situation about rabbit jumping with Zangief vs. Guile you describe- Zangief uses repeated jumping splash big punches over and over again. (jumps in on Guile, holds down, and presses big punch.) Guile can't charge for a flash kick. It is a good situation for Zangief no doubt, and maybe playing with Guile before an SPD. If Zangief keeps repeating it, Guile can block safely but there is always the danger Zangief would SPD-- as he SHOULD, having gotten in so close. If he doesn't, he can play a kind of mental mixup game on Guile, forcing him to guess or just to test him. If the splash is done relatively early in the jump, Zangief won't be safe when he lands and Guile can punish/escape. Anyway, if the splash is done late as usually done in repeated "rabbit jumps", I think Guile can just jump up and knee-drop air throw thing (while in air, down+ mid kick). Alternatively, I think Guile can also hit or trade favorably enough to stop the pattern with crouching big punch (easier to Execute, plus bonus of having charge if it works out), done as early as possible but I think that's also a prediction at best for Guile. But the early splash counters those two attempts by Guile I think. Guile has to guess. Or I should say, Guile GETS to guess. Because Zangief has that option to play with Guile, but he really doesn't want to, he wants to SPD if the (late) splash is blocked. Guile shouldn't be in that situation to begin with, but at least he gets to guess if Zangief won't tick into SPD. So it's not a lost cause and when the SPD comes, Guile can charge down enough to break the pattern.

    btw I scratched up a script for it in TRUST:

    ### Guile P1 ducking fierce vs
    ### Zangief P2 (SCRIPTED) splash trap?
    # speed: turbo 3
    # save state has guile in left corner, zangief nearby

    &7 W20

    _L.U.W5._D.3.^D.W30._U.W10.^U.W5.D3.
    W30._U.W10.^U.W5.D3.
    W30._U.W10.^U.W5.D3.
    W30._U.W10.^U.W5.D3.
    W30._U.W10.^U.W5.D3.
    W30._U.W10.^U.W5.D3.
    W40!

    carn114 wrote: »
    In regards to SPD, my point is that being "just easier to do" shouldn't matter that much in tier ranking. The best Zangiefs can execute a 360 SPD close to 100% of the time. It also shouldn't be very difficult for them to buffer a 360 during the animation of a green hand, or during hitstun (reversal SPD). You can even end a 360 motion in the back position, and use negative edge. I don't see the huge difference, other than it is easier to do for less experienced players. My guess is your Gief opponent is using the green hand to set up an SPD attempt (buffered SDP during green hand animation), lag makes his timing late, and he ends up still getting the SPD out after hit stun. I don't see how this wouldn't happen in Classic mode as well. At the most, it's not enough to convince me that Gief should not be top tier.

    The difference between Classic mode and Remix is, you don't have this redundant option built-in (option select) in Classic, because the motion for Green Hand is different, and so is the motion for SPD. Remix allows a lot of variety, including Classic's. This most likely accounts for the increased SPD's you see in Remix over Classic. And the situation I described could (maybe) happen in Remix but definitely not in Classic.

    And if the beginners are getting them more often, you cannot just assume the experts wouldn't either! They'll likely get more out TOO than they were before, they just aren't doing it in Classic because the inputs are stricter. They can get away with more too; it's not just beginners who benefit.
    carn114 wrote: »
    Regarding lariats, they are improved. And I do see now that having start up invincibility at the feet on startup can be sort of like having a safe SRK, though only invulnerable to low attacks. It's a good tool for Gief, for sure. By "High level play" I mean tournament level. If Zangief is so brain dead easy to lariat his way through matches, why haven't I seen tourney footage of him lariating his way through a whole tournament, or even a few matches? I'd love to see the footage if it exists (not being sarcastic here, as this could settle the issue for good). In Sirlin's blog, he mentions the first changes he made to Zangief's lariats made it a brain dead way to smash your opponent, but they changed it to not be the case. Maybe their changes didn't do the trick?

    Here's the video:


    (To be honest I didn't expect a vid to exist.) Once he hits with a lariat- not TOTALLY failproof in every single instance, but Zangief's nature is to be able to roll with a lot of punches if he can JUST get in one time. One lariat early in the footage hits Blanka's slide, CLEAN! It not only works, it's a knock down and he's in close to SPD. Their might be the odd green hand now and then, and when he's in close he's going for ticks to SPD, but otherwise, I see a ton of lariats. Richard Alexander, huh? Not necessarily. Zangief!

    And I didn't even see any hops. Those hops go so fast! very good to pressure opponent into the corner. He takes off your shoes for any sweep attempt AND advances in instantly. That's worth a few wrong guesses if it means SPD. Pretty soon, the opponent won't try sweeps as much because it's riskier. Not only do they NOT punish Zangief, they GET punished. There are a lot of double-whammies like that in Remix. Night and day from Classic.
    carn114 wrote: »
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    I... am not even sure what you mean by that. That those 3 characters lose in the corner? limited by their charge moves?? Claw doesn't really lose to many characters period, and although there are some guessing games to try and keep him trapped in the corner, it is most DEFINITELY not a sure loss. If you meant Claw's opponent in the corner, that's usually better than anywhere else, incidentally because of the deadly threat of the wall dive. Blanka is a beast in Remix and Gief ... is not a charge character. (??)
    No, those 3 characters kill charge characters that are stuck in the corner. I meant Claw, Blanka, or Gief has YOUR charge character in the corner, and is rabbit jumping on you. This puts a charge character like Guile at a much higher disadvantage than an SRK character like Ken. It's been this way since ST. Ken can SRK his way out of that pressure at any time. Guile and other charge characters can sometimes really only get out if they have a flash kick charged, and by that time they'll eat a jump in attack (because they are crouching). I probably could have described that situation better.

    Having addressed Zangief above, so will give options for Claw and Blanka. Claw is using jumping big punch? I think he can just throw Claw (or even crouch big punch?). Claw has a fast jump, but I think he has to wait relatively longer to hit with jumping big punch.

    These scenarios might "feel like" you should be able to flash kick. But you can't. Abandon that and try these other things. Because this rabbit jumping stuff is no big threat or something to be so scared about. It's not really an effective strategy because there are easy enough counters. This one should be pretty reactable to too. I often hear people make these claims-- and if you play online mostly, there could be a good reason you think that. But that's not any big threat at all.

    Blanka can use jumping light kicks? Ken has bigger problems with that than Guile though! In any case, again this isn't really something to lose all hope over. There are probably multiple ways to deal with Blanka trying "rabbit jumps". It's all based on the assumption you need to flash kick out of it. When you only have a flashkick, everything looks like a nail but that's the wrong answer. Blanka, otherwise, is very powerful in Remix and even in Classic, had the edge on Guile. So Guile should most likely get beat badly by Blanka anyway, but it's not because of the rabbit jumps.
    Random wrote: »
    ^^ That's part of what makes Zangief such a top tier. Charge characters that are cornered or knocked down are in trouble, especially Chun who cannot Upkick out of repeated splashes like Deejay can, for example. Zang stomps most competition if you look at it from a "flowchart" type view.

    So I agree with you on Ken but not Zang, and the opposite for MrDhalsim, funnily.

    Do you now agree that you both made some bad assumptions that flash/flipkicking your way out of the jump-ins? ;)

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