Consensus matchup chart

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Comments

  • alex6x6x6alex6x6x6 lighthouses>churches Joined: Posts: 385
    Is there anyone who thinks Zangief still has a disadvantage against Ryu?

    Well you should probably watch Snake Eyez and Alex Valle's match at West Coast Warzone 2 and see how difficult Snake Eyez has it against Alex Valle. :)

    ......... with a Xbox 360 controller no less. :D

    Yeah, I saw it. The word 'rape' came to mind.

    That said, I just don't think Valle played the match right. His performance yesterday along with vids I've seen of him having a hard time vs. guys like Jodim and Kuni makes me think that possibly Valle is simply a bit weak vs. Gief? I mean, Damdai vs. Daigo at SB4 was like, the exact opposite. I have a feeling that a DGV vs. Snake Eyez match will look much different if it happens.

    I'm still inclined to call the match at least slightly in Ryu's favor because of his fake FB.
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,218
    Which part of the stream has that match? Thanks.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    So me and GoldenArch finally played our match.

    Ended up:

    Shari - 10
    GoldenArch - 8

    We both agreed it feels very even and at most 5.5-4.5 in either direction.
    We eventually settled for simply 5-5

    Feel free to draw your own conclusions from the footage though.

    Part 1

    Part 2

    Part 3
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • GoldenArchGoldenArch Joined: Posts: 389
    Although, in fairness to me, it was 6-4 Ken at one point!:bgrin::razz:
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Although, in fairness to me, it was 6-4 Ken at one point!:bgrin::razz:

    Heh.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    This is theory fighter, I'm trying to understand how this works out:
    T.Hawk vs Ken 3
    I don't understand how Ken wins so big here since it seems like T. Hawk could win by mid-range zoning if he gets ahead:

    Fireball is answered by jump & dive, or - even better - Fierce Tomahawk.
    Uppercut is punishable on reaction.
    Tatsu is answered by crouching strong - which can also be used as a poke.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Ken's Tatsus are pretty bad against T.Hawk most of the time, that's true. And Hawk does have some great pokes to counter some of Ken's tricks, like jab SRKs. Good Kens don't spam SRKs or throw out Tatsus to close space against Hawk, though. They may bait your limbs into SRKs, but they're really just trying to get you knocked back to start a zone game. His jab fireball recovers pretty fast, and is sloooooooow...he loves using it to get you to attempt a jump-in or dive so he can punish you; don't for a minute think that is not what he was expecting. Couple that with his amazing assorted SRK properties (range, first-frame, invincibility, wide hitbox, fast, great recovery), and he can knock you out of the air on reaction on his terms most of the time. You can't effectively safe jump or cross him up either if he's competent; even neutral jump baiting him is difficult compared to other matches. It's just a much harder grind to get in against him.

    To add to the madness, staying in on Ken for effective damage is much more difficult than the rest of the cast overall...once again due to his amazing SRK flexibility. He can beat everything with the strong one, catch you off-guard in his face or out of the air with the fierce one, and whack your limbs with the jab version. He's pretty much tied with Cammy and Akuma, and just a step below Honda for the Hawk lopsided match factor. It's also tricky to get in on good Ryus, Sagats, Guiles, and DeeJays...but once you're there, your options are much better, since your risks are minimized in comparison. For example, really good Ryu/Guile players will typically wait for the tick to follow through, then will attempt to reversal your throw attempt. If you know they are prone to doing this, you can tick into Rising Hawk instead, and it will beat their attempt clean if you were both tight with your execution. You simply cannot risk this against Ken unless he is braindead, since he has such good options.

    Your best bet is to threaten pokes and stay on the ground as much as possible; if he goes for crouching strong, forward, or roundhouse you have your standing strong, fierce, and roundhouse primarily, and if he has a tendency to use higher pokes or (the much more likely) fireball from midrange, always be ready to Rising Hawk his ass. If you sense he's getting psyched out, you can threaten walk-up throw more, so it's very important to draw his moves out by hovering around his favorite ranges (sweep, jab SRK). It's funny how effective walking back and forth there can be to bait him and set him up for a command throw; it's probably your best bet in landing them on him (though this is much more difficult online). Remember that he can get desperate or creative by tossing fierce SRKs, Tatsus, and even walk-up throws of his own if you're unwary or too passive. He can also reverse TK Tatsu to get the hell away from you in a hurry if he has the space available behind him. If he does widen the distance, you have to be patient and do what it takes to get back in range without setting yourself up to get knocked right back out, like openly jumping after him. (If you can read him doing something like this fast enough, though, a quick jump into dive is good as a short distance closer; just don't rely on it to get you all the way there against Ken.)

    7-3? Can't say for sure from a stats POV, but it's definitely one of his rougher matchups. Hope this helps!
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Kens tarsus are good in combos but it's char dependent. It connects well on hawk btw. Also tatsu after punch throw is a good way pressure to the corner since it sets up wakeup srk setups. Jizz is right tho, r.ken's zoning got buffed with fierce srk. So neutral jumps are more dangerous over hados dive or not. That goes for everyone tho.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    This is (roughly) the maximum distance that FP rising hawk will punish Ken's Hadoken:
    http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/misc/fprisingvshado.png
    Crouching Ken & Hawk are the starting positions.
    It's relatively easy to do on reaction as long as you go after the start-up.
    Forward Jump into quick dive should work from even further away (depending on how quick you are probably most of the screen).
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • GoldenArchGoldenArch Joined: Posts: 389
    snip

    all of this in action.
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,325
    Soooooooooooo.......

    Going back to the Fei vs. Deejay matchup. :lol:

    Has anyone changed their mind about it being 7-3? I've been preaching about it being a 6-4 matchup, and I hope I was able to convince some of you. :P


    My next debate is on the Fei vs. Vega matchup. Right now the chart is at 6.5 - 3.5 in Vega's favor and I say it's about 6-4 in Vega's favor.

    I would consider Balrog, Sim, and Honda Fei's worst matchups at 6.5 in their favor. I wouldn't consider Vega being fustrating as those three. Sure it can be annoying trying to get in on Vega with his pokes, slide, flipkicks, and wall dive shenanigans, but once you knock Vega down you can begin your mixups which can lead to big damage if Vega guesses wrong. Plus when you trade limbs with Vega using st.HP, st.HK, and cr.HP it's usually in your favor since he dizzies pretty easily. Also you get free x2 Rekka damage off wall spike whether you block or get hit on the ground (Was Fei able to punish it before in ST?). Although, I don't think he needs wall spike to fight Fei.

    I also think Vega losing his walldive knockdown, and Stored flipkick also helped Fei a little.
  • KAOSPIDERKAOSPIDER Maximum Spider Joined: Posts: 510
    snip

    Those are very interesting thoughts, Aqua. While you might be on to something regarding DeeJay, I'd be hardpressed to agree with you on Vega.
    I think Fei's worst matches, in order are: Vega, Honda, DeeJay & Balrog. I'd argue that Sim is about even--or just slightly in Sim's favor. It is easier to get in against a quality Sim than it is a good Vega but I'm digressing.
    Think about this Aqua: Vega doesn't really have to pressure in this match--he can simply read and react, making this a Very bad matchup. Fei has to do more guessing and take more risks in order to win.
    Rekka < Vega cr.LP, cr. MP, cr. MK, cr.HK. It is also unsafe on block in most instances.
    CW < flip kick, cr.HK to go underneath it. Or, when the CW hits, there is a good chance that Vega simply throws/flipkicks Fei anyway to reset the playing field or start crossup games.
    Flame kick is highly unsafe against Vega as even the LK version is very vulnerable on block and that gives Vega a free poke/sweep. Additionally, Vega's cr.HK is mostly safe against the flame kick (it misses Vega most of the time)--again setting up a throw/poke situation.
    What is worse is that when Fei finally manages to get close to Vega, he has an inferior throw range and the flame kick loses to the backflip kick. Sure, Vega takes a risk doing the backflip kick but use the LK version which is harder to punish online. Besides, most will use the flipkick as an anti-air to punish jumps and CW anyway.
    Trying to outpoke Vega is a guessing game that I'm sure most Vega players will eagerly play. For every st. HK that Fei misses, he will eat a cr. HK for the knockdown/crossup shenanigans.
    The knockdown will be more easily scored by Vega which exacerbates the fact that Fei is easily crossed up, despite the "option select" FK/CW. Add the very fast and maneuverable wall dive to the mix and it is possible to consistently disrupt Fei's counter inputs...in turn, setting Fei up for flying body slams.
    The wall spike is just superfluous in this match and is really only used as a finisher or to punish Fei's jumping counters to wall dives. Those wall dives themselves are really just icing on the cake in this match, since Vega rarely has to leave his feet to win.
    I've seen Branta and Blueblood tear through supreme Feis like Rice scot free enough to know that it isn't just a slight advantage for Vega.
    In short, Vega has this match firmly in hand all around: close range (cr.LP anyone?), mid range, long range, and air superiority.
    The Coffin Corner: Where Dreams Go to Die

    E. Honda, Balrog & Vega: Street Fighter for Dummies
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,325
    Those are very interesting thoughts, Aqua. While you might be on to something regarding DeeJay, I'd be hardpressed to agree with you on Vega.
    I think Fei's worst matches, in order are: Vega, Honda, DeeJay & Balrog. I'd argue that Sim is about even--or just slightly in Sim's favor. It is easier to get in against a quality Sim than it is a good Vega but I'm digressing.
    Think about this Aqua: Vega doesn't really have to pressure in this match--he can simply read and react, making this a Very bad matchup. Fei has to do more guessing and take more risks in order to win.
    Rekka < Vega cr.LP, cr. MP, cr. MK, cr.HK. It is also unsafe on block in most instances.
    CW < flip kick, cr.HK to go underneath it. Or, when the CW hits, there is a good chance that Vega simply throws/flipkicks Fei anyway to reset the playing field or start crossup games.
    Flame kick is highly unsafe against Vega as even the LK version is very vulnerable on block and that gives Vega a free poke/sweep. Additionally, Vega's cr.HK is mostly safe against the flame kick (it misses Vega most of the time)--again setting up a throw/poke situation.
    What is worse is that when Fei finally manages to get close to Vega, he has an inferior throw range and the flame kick loses to the backflip kick. Sure, Vega takes a risk doing the backflip kick but use the LK version which is harder to punish online. Besides, most will use the flipkick as an anti-air to punish jumps and CW anyway.
    Trying to outpoke Vega is a guessing game that I'm sure most Vega players will eagerly play. For every st. HK that Fei misses, he will eat a cr. HK for the knockdown/crossup shenanigans.
    The knockdown will be more easily scored by Vega which exacerbates the fact that Fei is easily crossed up, despite the "option select" FK/CW. Add the very fast and maneuverable wall dive to the mix and it is possible to consistently disrupt Fei's counter inputs...in turn, setting Fei up for flying body slams.
    The wall spike is just superfluous in this match and is really only used as a finisher or to punish Fei's jumping counters to wall dives. Those wall dives themselves are really just icing on the cake in this match, since Vega rarely has to leave his feet to win.
    I've seen Branta and Blueblood tear through supreme Feis like Rice scot free enough to know that it isn't just a slight advantage for Vega.
    In short, Vega has this match firmly in hand all around: close range (cr.LP anyone?), mid range, long range, and air superiority.

    Before I respond, I want to make it known that I consider 5.5 a slight advantage, and 6 an advantage.

    Now with that said, I agree with almost everything you said. And I still consider it a 6-4 matchup. :D

    Why? Because IMO Vega is vulnerable to many of Fei's mixups/tickthrow shenanigans on knockdown (Especially in the corner). Flipkick is easily punishable no matter what strength he uses (cl.HP into rekkas = Big damage!). Flame kick is very risky in this match which why I use it only to let the Vega player know I have it so he will continue to sit there and turtle making it easier for me to work my mixups on him.

    It is possible to make Rekkas useful in this match. It all depends on how well you can mixup. You can delay the third rekka to stuff whatever he decides to throw out. Or you do rekka x2 then walk up and throw to keep him confused. You can also build meter easily against Vega since he normally tries to keep away from you. So whether or not you have the health lead just do light flame kicks in place, then go after him. Now he'll be even more afraid to attack out of fear of the super.

    The biggest challenge is backing him into a corner.


    It's my observation that Fei players who has a strong combo style, but lacks a mixup game will have lots of trouble against Vega because IMO a strong mixup game is a better approach to this fight. Rice is a good example. He has a very combo oriented Fei Long. I want to ask him how his mixup game is because I would think with his style, the fight against Vega would be harder.

    I absolutely suck at combos. So I have to compensate with a heavy mixup game (I'm more of a mixup kind of player anyway!).
  • KAOSPIDERKAOSPIDER Maximum Spider Joined: Posts: 510
    To be fair, Rice has a great mixup/all around game. But that is neither here nor there. :bgrin:
    I don't think that play style matters a ton in this match--a Vega that knows his stuff should be able to handle this pretty readily. (It's too bad that Fei can't out-turtle Vega.)
    What sort of mixups are you referring to? Anticipatory jump in attacks/crossups on a sliding Vega? Single or double rekkas into CW/flame kick/throw? Baiting slide and then attempting overhead?
    Tick throw/fake tick attempts?
    These are all risky actions. Even tick throw attempts aren't a sure bet. If Vega times the counter throw properly, you're thrown back into the corner and Vega is out of it...but cornering an alert Vega is a tremendous task.
    I'm not saying that Vega has absolutely no risk in this match (any action or inaction is inherently a risk) but I'd venture to say that his necessity for risk-taking is far less than Fei's. Can you point out any significant risks that Vega has to take in order to overcome Fei?
    Finally, if Vega chooses to mixup, he has the edge there as well.
    P.S.
    You're right about the flipkick, Aqua. I should have added that I'm on PSN where things seem faster--sometimes so fast that you don't see them happen. :sad:
    The Coffin Corner: Where Dreams Go to Die

    E. Honda, Balrog & Vega: Street Fighter for Dummies
  • The OspreyThe Osprey Bird Brain Joined: Posts: 296
    Fei vs Vega Matchup

    This reminds me a lot of the Blanka vs Vega Matchup. Vega can turtle HARD and just react to everything Blanka does. His walldives are 100% useless, but he doesn't even need them to win.

    Blanka has to either get a knockdown with electricity, or roll into bite to get things going.

    Its so obvious when running into players who don't know the matchup. They're sliding and going off the wall, doing full screen rolls and trying to jump in constantly. All Vega has to do is sit with Flip kicks charges and he can do pretty well.
    "One does not simply flowchart into Mordor." - Tuna Fish Riot
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Matchups for my characters, IMO.

    Ken Matchups:
    vs Ryu: 4-6
    vs Ken: -
    vs E.Honda: 6-4
    vs Chun Li: 4-6
    vs Blanka: 5-5
    vs Zangief: 4-6
    vs Guile: 4-6
    vs Dhalsim: 4-6
    vs T.Hawk: 6-4
    vs Cammy: 6-4
    vs Fei Long: 6-4
    vs Dee Jay: 4-6
    vs Balrog: 4-6
    vs Vega: 4-6
    vs Sagat:4-6
    vs M.Bison:6-4

    Deejay Matchups:
    vs Ryu: 4-6
    vs Ken: 6-4
    vs E.Honda: 7-3
    vs Chun Li: 4-6
    vs Blanka: 6-4
    vs Zangief: 5-5
    vs Guile: 5-5
    vs Dhalsim: 4-6
    vs T.Hawk: 6-4
    vs Cammy: 6-4
    vs Fei Long: 6-4
    vs Dee Jay: -
    vs Balrog: 4-6
    vs Vega: 4-6
    vs Sagat:4-6
    vs M.Bison:6-4

    E.Honda Matchups:
    vs Ryu: 3-7
    vs Ken: 4-6
    vs E.Honda: -
    vs Chun Li: 4-6
    vs Blanka: 5-5
    vs Zangief: 7-3
    vs Guile: 4-6
    vs Dhalsim: 6-4
    vs T.Hawk: 7-3
    vs Cammy: 6-4
    vs Fei Long: 6-4
    vs Dee Jay: 3-7
    vs Balrog: 6-4
    vs Vega: 5-5
    vs Sagat:4-6
    vs M.Bison:6-4
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

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  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    This reminds me a lot of the Blanka vs Vega Matchup. ... His walldives are 100% useless
    That is not completely true. It's not like vs other characters but it can beat an upball clean if spaced properly. But then you can actually whiff punish it after Vega lands, still risky but Baconology was able to still be annoying with it against my Blanka. (bit laggy though).
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,218
    Matchups for my characters, IMO.

    Ken Matchups:
    vs Chun Li: 4-6 -> jab SRK is very good against Chun, I might not agree here.
    vs Blanka: 5-5 -> Ken has a big advantage here, cr. mp + jab SRK
    vs Guile: 4-6 -> The tatsu isn't as good but you should be able to win the fireball wars
    vs Sagat:4-6 -> This may also be closer, Ken can use SRK to catch Sagat's limbs off a tiger shot

    Deejay Matchups:
    vs Zangief: 5-5 -> I feel this is 6-4 for Dee-Jay due to his slide and cr. mk
    vs Vega: 4-6 -> This is the total opposite, its a horrible match for Vega (I main him)

    Cool stuff, I left a few comments :) Not knocking your opinion or anything, just providing some insight which may change your mind! Then again, I'm no pro so take my changes at face value.
  • The OspreyThe Osprey Bird Brain Joined: Posts: 296
    That is not completely true. It's not like vs other characters but it can beat an upball clean if spaced properly. But then you can actually whiff punish it after Vega lands, still risky but Baconology was able to still be annoying with it against my Blanka. (bit laggy though).

    Come to think of it, I have seen it used on Blanka's wakeup to beat the upball. VERY spacing and timing dependent though. Its so unsafe in general in the match, that it makes you wonder why the Vega player would even bother. If they mess it up at all it could easily lead to crossup shenanigans/dizzy/GGPO.
    "One does not simply flowchart into Mordor." - Tuna Fish Riot
  • zenzenzenzen heartfelt fancy Joined: Posts: 3,489
    I'll go ahead and post some of my matchups:

    vs Ryu: 3.5-6.5
    vs Ken: 5-5
    vs E.Honda: 7-3
    vs Chun Li: 4.5-5.5 (st.strong throw is annoying and sometimes hard to AA, but can be 5-5 if you play this matchup right)
    vs Blanka: 6.5-3.5 (just so long as Blanka can't get some ticks started)
    vs Zangief: 7-3 (DJ keeps out Gief very well, and there's not much Gief can do unless you screw up horribly)
    vs Guile: 5-5
    vs Dhalsim: 4-6 (really annoying matchup though; you've got to scare Sim into not throwing out as many limbs as he could)
    vs T.Hawk: 6.5-3.5 (see: Gief, but has more options to get in)
    vs Cammy: 7-3 (not much Cammy can do here; she can't poke because of cr.strong, hard for her to get over/through FBs without being punished and being pushed back to square 1)
    vs Fei Long: 5-5 (call me insane, but CW mixup really kills DJ here, and Fei has really scary pokes)
    vs Dee Jay: -
    vs Balrog: 4-6
    vs Vega: 5-5 (j.jab beats wall dives and cr.forward beats basically all of Claw's moves)
    vs Sagat: 5.5-4.5 (definitely in DJ's favor, Sagat has very little places in which he's going to be able to safely keep DJ out, and DJ can get in pretty easily IMO)
    vs M.Bison: 5.5-4.5 (DJ doesn't have many good positions, but a knockdown for him leads to good options. However, Bison also has many many good meaty options here)
    <dominos> what 2d isn't real?
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  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Cool stuff, I left a few comments :) Not knocking your opinion or anything, just providing some insight which may change your mind! Then again, I'm no pro so take my changes at face value.

    hey man thanks for the comments!.

    Some comments are accurated but i don't think that ken has advantage over blanka, as u can see in aniken vs komoda, ken has pretty even match there.
    Same thing for Guile, fireball wars is in favor of guile and tatsus never knockdown when hit, if you hit one or two kicks, you'll get a throw or a c.fierce in the face, not a nice trade.
    Chun: she has the weak kick in her favor, using it as a overhead can even defeat reversal jab dp, is maybe not the worst ken matchup but is not his best either.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

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  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    Fei will always have a disadvantage against DeeJay. 7-3 DeeJay.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • GoldenArchGoldenArch Joined: Posts: 389

    Ken Matchups:
    vs Balrog: 4-6

    A couple of questions:

    1. What's usually your opening move against Boxer?

    2. How often do you safe jump after a knock down?
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,325
    To be fair, Rice has a great mixup/all around game. But that is neither here nor there. :bgrin:
    I don't think that play style matters a ton in this match--a Vega that knows his stuff should be able to handle this pretty readily. (It's too bad that Fei can't out-turtle Vega.)
    What sort of mixups are you referring to? Anticipatory jump in attacks/crossups on a sliding Vega? Single or double rekkas into CW/flame kick/throw? Baiting slide and then attempting overhead?
    Tick throw/fake tick attempts?
    These are all risky actions. Even tick throw attempts aren't a sure bet. If Vega times the counter throw properly, you're thrown back into the corner and Vega is out of it...but cornering an alert Vega is a tremendous task.
    I'm not saying that Vega has absolutely no risk in this match (any action or inaction is inherently a risk) but I'd venture to say that his necessity for risk-taking is far less than Fei's. Can you point out any significant risks that Vega has to take in order to overcome Fei?
    Finally, if Vega chooses to mixup, he has the edge there as well.
    P.S.
    You're right about the flipkick, Aqua. I should have added that I'm on PSN where things seem faster--sometimes so fast that you don't see them happen. :sad:

    It's all about baiting in this matchup. No need to FK, or CW to fight Vega. The two things he has to defend himself on wakeup is Flipkick and reverse throw (He has what, 2 throw buttons? Either way reverse throw is risky). Him being a charge character makes it a tad easier. It's risky for both players which is why its not that bad of a matchup IMO. But Fei's reward for baiting correctly is much bigger since Vega can't produce huge damage for mistakes as well as Fei can.

    If only you were on XBL, then maybe we could go hunting for all the good Vega players. :(
    Fei will always have a disadvantage against DeeJay. 7-3 DeeJay.

    How is your rating system? Is 7-3 considered an advantage and 6-4 being a slight advantage? I just want to make sure because if that's true then we actually agree with each other. My rating scale is similar to what Thelo portrays in the consensus chart (5.5 slight advantage, 6 advantage).

    If not......

    >:(
  • KAOSPIDERKAOSPIDER Maximum Spider Joined: Posts: 510
    It's all about baiting in this matchup. No need to FK, or CW to fight Vega. The two things he has to defend himself on wakeup is Flipkick and reverse throw (He has what, 2 throw buttons? Either way reverse throw is risky). Him being a charge character makes it a tad easier. It's risky for both players which is why its not that bad of a matchup IMO. But Fei's reward for baiting correctly is much bigger since Vega can't produce huge damage for mistakes as well as Fei can.

    If only you were on XBL, then maybe we could go hunting for all the good Vega players. :(

    I wish I was on XBL...but you never know. PSNers are planning an exodus/invasion--watch out!
    I would love to see your baits in action. Do you have any videos that one could refer to? I have a hard time imagining that the Vega-Fei match can be boiled down to simply baiting. It would seem that, at the very least, Fei would sustain poke/throw damage if he guesses wrong. How do you overcome Vegas that create space and then sit on down-back? If Fei Rekkas, he'll be poked and if he jumps, he'll be flipkicked/st.HK.
    And I just looked over the old Vega thread and they essentially echoed my sentiments. The only chance that Fei has to consistently win this match is for the Vega to cease turtling.
    The Coffin Corner: Where Dreams Go to Die

    E. Honda, Balrog & Vega: Street Fighter for Dummies
  • wolf_1wolf_1 Joined: Posts: 169
    hello, i'm bored.

    to the best of my knowledge:

    guile vs;

    vs ryu: 4-6 (4-6 with conviction. pretty simple, ryu controls the match with his super.)
    vs ken: 5-5 (not sure about this)
    vs sagat: 5-5 (not sure about this)
    vs claw: 3-7 (not sure)
    vs chun-li: 2-8 (I'm really biased with this one. Chun can jump in for free. Chun can shut guile out from jumping in with standing forward. Super setups)
    vs balrog: 2-8 (2-8 with conviction.)
    vs dhalsim: 2-8 (this matchup reminds of this: )
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    OT but hahaha, this is funny. E Honda vs Sagat. Tiger knee at 4:47
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    A couple of questions:

    1. What's usually your opening move against Boxer?

    2. How often do you safe jump after a knock down?

    my usually opening moves against rog are:

    1. wait for him
    2. Jump backwards... jab jab if he jumps/ strong srk if he tries to make some of those charged moves then i hadouken.

    I usually safe jump against every character, then jump over him/her with a strong punch canceled to tatsu(ask to OneHitParry about our matchups) if he blocks i kara cancel to kneebash or safe jump, medium kick, crouch medium kick canceling to hadouken or an overhead kick.

    Last time we went ftw 10.
    results:
    Ken 8
    Boxer 10
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

    The Crew - www.nohonorcrew.com/
  • GoldenArchGoldenArch Joined: Posts: 389
    my usually opening moves against rog are:

    1. wait for him
    2. Jump backwards... jab jab if he jumps/ strong srk if he tries to make some of those charged moves then i hadouken.

    I usually safe jump against every character, then jump over him/her with a strong punch canceled to tatsu(ask to OneHitParry about our matchups) if he blocks i kara cancel to kneebash or safe jump, medium kick, crouch medium kick canceling to hadouken or an overhead kick.

    Last time we went ftw 10.
    results:
    Ken 8
    Boxer 10

    Interesting; I do much of the same. The only thing I would add to your strategy is to stay on side during the safe jump. After jumping go for a cr. :mk: > :hk: tatsu > throw for some nice damage and then when he starts getting wise to that and starts blocking low, go for a knee bash.
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,325
    Do you have any videos that one could refer to? I have a hard time imagining that the Vega-Fei match can be boiled down to simply baiting. It would seem that, at the very least, Fei would sustain poke/throw damage if he guesses wrong. How do you overcome Vegas that create space and then sit on down-back? If Fei Rekkas, he'll be poked and if he jumps, he'll be flipkicked/st.HK.
    And I just looked over the old Vega thread and they essentially echoed my sentiments. The only chance that Fei has to consistently win this match is for the Vega to cease turtling.

    Well....

    There is one video, but it was somewhat laggy, so I don't think both of us were fighting at our full potential. :(

    Yeah there's alot of bad things players can list in the Vega matchup against Fei, but there was alot of players saying the same thing about Deejay as well. :D

    I guess I'll have to execute what I say rather than preach it. :P
  • KAOSPIDERKAOSPIDER Maximum Spider Joined: Posts: 510
    I'd love for you to be right (it'd be the Holy Grail as far as I'm concerned) but I don't think that any of the changes to both characters in HDR have truly affected the match's dynamics. Keep fighting the good fight, fellow Fei. We're a rare breed.
    The Coffin Corner: Where Dreams Go to Die

    E. Honda, Balrog & Vega: Street Fighter for Dummies
  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    Yes that's how I rate that match up against DeeJay. 6-4 is a slight advantage but 7-3 is an advantage for DeeJay.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • vegetabrolyvegetabroly Joined: Posts: 101
    Ken 5
    E.H 5
    Chu 5
    Bla 5
    Zan 3
    Gui 5
    Dha 3
    T.H 5
    Cam 5
    Fei 5
    Dee 5
    Bal 3
    Veg 5
    Sag 5
    M.B 5
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    Zangief MU's (Zangief ##-## Opponent)

    Ryu 50-50
    Ken 50-50
    Honda 25-75
    Chun 35-65
    Blanka 35-65
    Zangief 65-35 (red gief's favor :lol:)
    Guile 30-70
    Dhalsim 35-65
    T Hawk 50-50
    Cammy 40-60
    Fei 45-55
    DJ 50-50
    Balrog 55-45
    Vega 40-60
    Sagat 40-60
    Bison 50-50
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,218
    Zangief beats Ryu, also I think he has a slight advantage versus Bison.

    Anyway, NCR results are in. Ryu is in #1-3. Top tier am confirmed??????
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    At first I felt that Zangief beat Ryu and Bison, by about 60-40. Now I think the fake fireball and smart usage of his super (which he builds so easily with lk tatsus) keeps the fight about even. Bison can be played safe enough to avoid a lot of Zangief's tick setups, and his new dr lets him escape occasionally.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    At first I felt that Zangief beat Ryu and Bison, by about 60-40. Now I think the fake fireball and smart usage of his super (which he builds so easily with lk tatsus) keeps the fight about even. Bison can be played safe enough to avoid a lot of Zangief's tick setups, and his new dr lets him escape occasionally.

    I think bison versus gief has definitely gotten more do-able for bison. He can still run away all day, unless gief is smart about beating him air to air and trapping him in a tick loop, but he now has a way to escape at least some of gief's corner lockdowns. The improved devil's reverse isn't a free escape for bison, but it definitely helps the matchup. Gief has to guess what bison is going to do a little more than before in the corner.

    For gief, the HP splash loop into SPD, or just his regular jumping ticks are still tough for bison to deal with, but i feel like this match is about even, or maybe a half a point in gief's favour but only because of the huge damage output he can deal out if bison makes a mistake versus bison having to work his ass off for the whole match just to avoid the same thing happening. If the dictator player doesn't make a mistake, he has an answer for pretty much everything gief can do to try to close space, and can escape all day long.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • Fighter21Fighter21 Joined: Posts: 68
    In my opinion Chun Li beats Balrog 5.5-4.5.
    Chun can zone out Balrog with her very good normals crouching forward ex, which will also stop dash punches.
    Her fireball is a very good zoning tool, which balrog can have a hard time avoiding.
    Outprioritizes balrog in air with jumping short.
    Her throw is very good.
    Lighting legs, helps chun build meter and is a good defensive tool for some of Balrogs normals.
    Chun Li has a very small hit box, which helps her avoid getting hit from headbutts after throwing fireballs unless at point blank range.
    I feel that the only time Balrog is threating chun li is when he has his super.
    I need some feedback as I have a hard time with this match as a balrog player, and I may not know something that you guys are utilizing in this matchup, so dont get insulted by my post.
    AKA SuperrV
  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    I was just checking out the HDR wiki and I see that Zangief Vs DeeJay is 3.5 to Gief. Is this correct? Myself and Remy77077 played for around 30-40 games and when I worked it out, it was 5.5 to Zangief.

    Also, how about getting a consensus chart from the guys at Evo, similar to like Nohoho did with his 2008 chart?
  • Remy77077Remy77077 futility fighting Joined: Posts: 344
    But that's probably because I suck Zero1 ;)

    Seriously I'm not good enough to give (or compete against for) high level matchup figures, however in a match where I do have a LOT of experience vs good players (like DeeJay vs Gief) and I've tried out tons of stuff, I do feel like I'm at the point where I can extrapolate what I feel matches would be like if I had better reactions, positioning, didn't make execution mistakes etc like I do - and my opponent was the same. I definitely feel like DeeJay has a clear advantage vs Zangief overall. I'd give it 6-4 advantage to DeeJay. I can't argue with 6.5 though either. That's for better players than me to debate.

    As I've said many times though, I also feel it's a very unstable matchup, so over a short run - like a few matches, it can easily swing to either side based on the smallest mistake, one bit of lag, or the smallest difference in player skill. It's the type of matchup where two players of equal skill might still get perfects against each other.

    Contrary to this might be say, DeeJay vs Honda, where DeeJay has a clear advantage as well, and it feels very stable. (or Ryu vs DeeJay where Ryu has a stable advantage vs DeeJay).
    http://www.agoners.com My gaming website
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