Consensus matchup chart

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Comments

  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,328
    Now that EVO 2010 is over, I think it would be a good time to start discussions regarding matchups.

    Anyone have different takes now that they had the chance to fight people offline (Assuming you went to EVO)?

    What is everyones thoughts on Zangief's matchups now that Snake Eyez won EVO?




    As for my changes, I wanted to talk about Fei vs. Honda.

    I finally got the chance to fight Thelo for the first time in casuals since Last year about 6 months (Roughly) when HDR was released. I played him on friday and we played a best of three matches which I was able to win (It was close though!). On Sunday we went back and forth, but I think he had one match over me.

    I'm starting to think this matchup is 6-4 in Hondas favor (I rated it 6.5-3.5 in Hondas favor before).

    Hey Thelo, I wanted to talk to you about this matchup whie we were in Megamans room but I forgot! XD

    I wanted to hear your thoughts on this matchup.
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    I also feel it's about Honda 6 - 4 Fei. Just Fei's stand fierce + rekkas really is good enough to prevent Honda from controlling the match too much, Fei does have a reliable reversal, and he basically does as much damage as Honda does when he gets going. Expert Fei players can also read when Honda will go for a special move, since they are all pretty heavily telegraphed, then counter it with a well-timed press of the fierce button. Honda still retains the throw and crossup advantage though. I used to be unsure about the matchup since I only saw Sirlin do the Fei gameplan well, but now that I've played an Aqua Snake on top of his game, I see that it's a real thing and not just a magical Sirlin-only thing.

    I'm way overdue on updating this chart, to be honest. Probably the most blatant change should be the Zangief vs Shoto ratings, which I think most people now agree is in Zangief's favor.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    I also feel it's about Honda 6 - 4 Fei. Just Fei's stand fierce + rekkas really is good enough to prevent Honda from controlling the match too much, Fei does have a reliable reversal, and he basically does as much damage as Honda does when he gets going. Expert Fei players can also read when Honda will go for a special move, since they are all pretty heavily telegraphed, then counter it with a well-timed press of the fierce button. Honda still retains the throw and crossup advantage though. I used to be unsure about the matchup since I only saw Sirlin do the Fei gameplan well, but now that I've played an Aqua Snake on top of his game, I see that it's a real thing and not just a magical Sirlin-only thing.

    I'm way overdue on updating this chart, to be honest. Probably the most blatant change should be the Zangief vs Shoto ratings, which I think most people now agree is in Zangief's favor.

    Agree with all of that, if Honda gets behind against Fei it's really hard for him to make up the difference. Too much holding down-back and not moving for my tastes, LOL. Plus all the really good Fei's (which there are a fair number of now with HDR) usually know the match-up better than most Honda players because they have to play it more. I almost feel more comfortable in all Honda's bad match-ups (Shoto's, Guile, etc) than the good ones ('Gief, Fei, etc) simply because I play them so much more, LOL.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • KAOSPIDERKAOSPIDER Maximum Spider Joined: Posts: 510
    I'd say that 6-4 is reasonable. It's still a BS matchup but not as BS as Fei vs DeeJay or Vega. At least Fei has the tools to make fat boy advance and not simply sit on down-back.
    The Coffin Corner: Where Dreams Go to Die

    E. Honda, Balrog & Vega: Street Fighter for Dummies
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    I'd say that 6-4 is reasonable. It's still a BS matchup but not as BS as Fei vs DeeJay or Vega. At least Fei has the tools to make fat boy advance and not simply sit on down-back.

    That's it, and when Honda doesn't have a charge the advantage is with Fei because he has such superior pokes. If Fei stays in that middle range he is good, from far away Honda can sit on charge and from up close Fei has to worry about Ochio. From middle, poking distance Fei is at the advantage.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,328
    It's still a BS matchup but not as BS as Fei vs DeeJay or Vega.

    Eh....

    I still don't consider Vega or Deejay that much of a threat in HDR against Fei. Playing very good Vega players like Vega Uno/Dos/Tres, and Ghaleon (Blacmore) still hasn't convinced me that the match is that brutal.

    I would now consider just Balrog and Sim to be his worst MU.

    I still call 6-4 in Deejay and Vega's favor against Fei.
  • KAOSPIDERKAOSPIDER Maximum Spider Joined: Posts: 510
    Sim? Really? Sim's challenging but nowhere near the difficulty of a Deejay or Vega that knows to simply turtle up. Again, Sim has to take risks even with his pokes. All you need in that match is one knockdown or a couple of hard attacks to end this match.

    If Vega & DeeJay are 6-4 ("not that much of a threat") what do you deem the Fei-Sim match to be? I'd say that Vega-Fei is 6.5-3.5 as is the DeeJay matchup. Sim would be 6-4 his way if not 5.5-4.5 in my humble opinion. Rog is certainly a bad matchup without a doubt...thank God for offline play.
    The Coffin Corner: Where Dreams Go to Die

    E. Honda, Balrog & Vega: Street Fighter for Dummies
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,328
    Sim? Really? Sim's challenging but nowhere near the difficulty of a Deejay or Vega that knows to simply turtle up. Again, Sim has to take risks even with his pokes. All you need in that match is one knockdown or a couple of hard attacks to end this match.

    If Vega & DeeJay are 6-4 ("not that much of a threat") what do you deem the Fei-Sim match to be? I'd say that Vega-Fei is 6.5-3.5 as is the DeeJay matchup. Sim would be 6-4 his way if not 5.5-4.5 in my humble opinion. Rog is certainly a bad matchup without a doubt...thank God for offline play.

    I rank Sim vs. Fei 6.5-3.5 in Sim's favor. I'd love to see some of your matches vs a Sim.
  • Ramza89Ramza89 Bean Joined: Posts: 56
    I thinks its also 6.5-3.5 in Sim's favor. Remember we're talking top level play here. The best Sim's in the world can keep Fei out pretty easily. Sure it gets easier when you got them cornered but unsafe flame kick and shorter throw range means you better guess right or your gunna be tossed in the corner or take some damage and get pushed back.

    Vega's superior ground game and aa flip kicks means your at the mercy of the Vega player. Rekka's have very little use and are very unsafe, flame kick can always be punished, Vega has a huge throw range, CWs get you thrown half the time and so on. Your best hope is to get a couple of lucky poke trades (not that common) and close the gap when you got them scared of being dizzy. Vega literally does not need to leave the ground to win this match up. 7-3 Vega.

    As far as Dee Jay, I don't think he is one of our hardest match ups. 6-4 (Dee Jay advantage) is a fair assessment. If they focus on zoning, sure it can be tough, but once you get passed their max outs and you got em in the corner, you can lock it up.

    Now Balrog is another story. I personally think this is our worst match up. 7-3 (in rog's favor) for sure. When Balrog is out of rekka range, this match is a total bitch. You can barely walk up with out getting rushed punched.
    Tag: Bean
    UMVC3: Zero/Doom/Ammy - ST/HDR: Fei Long
    3rd Strike: Urien - SFxT: Law/Juri
  • KAOSPIDERKAOSPIDER Maximum Spider Joined: Posts: 510
    Very interesting. I think the Dhalsim match is one of the few matches where the improved Rekka range makes a drastic difference. But I can understand your sentiments. It can be a very challenging match but 3.5 to 6.5 seems a bit too steep.
    What exactly about this match do you guys find the most challenging specifically. I don't mean to belabor the point but I'd like to see if I can convince you otherwise. :sweat:

    What of the Ryu-Fei match? Is that still resoundingly in Ryu's favor?
    The Coffin Corner: Where Dreams Go to Die

    E. Honda, Balrog & Vega: Street Fighter for Dummies
  • Ramza89Ramza89 Bean Joined: Posts: 56
    It's the zoning aspect that is difficult (or should be). Rarely should Fei get a clean jump in on Sim from mid screen. They have a lot of tools to stuff your jump ins. Sim's pokes should stuff your walk ins from far mid to mid screen which leaves you at their mercy (kinda like Vega.) Your options at that range are to walk up and block a poke(which puts you back at full screen-ish), jump (hello stretchy foot to the face), psychic flame kick a limb (good luck), or use your pokes and hope for a trade (Sim wants you to do this but it is your best bet.) All of these options means you either have to catch Sim sleeping and get closer or just get plain lucky. Usually when I play solid Sim players and I beat them I usually end up feeling that it was their mistakes that caused me to win rather than my correct guesses. I'm always like "Ok, he could done "x" to stop my "y" but he didn't and now he is in the corner." To be honest, I don't think Sim is being played to his max potential in this match up (at least on xbox.)

    As for Ryu, 6.5-3.5 at worst (Ryu's favor.) It is a very basic match up. Get around his fireballs, get in his head, and put him to sleep. Or get zoned and raped from mid screen and hope you have a enough life for when you actually get in (if you get in) to maybe pull out a win. The sooner you get Ryu against the wall the better. Once you got him cornered, do your best to keep him there. His options are very limited there. That's really it.
    Tag: Bean
    UMVC3: Zero/Doom/Ammy - ST/HDR: Fei Long
    3rd Strike: Urien - SFxT: Law/Juri
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I feel its DJ's normals that rape fei, if he's throwing those out between maxouts, I just don't see the room to maneuver.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Usually when I play solid Sim players and I beat them I usually end up feeling that it was their mistakes that caused me to win rather than my correct guesses. I'm always like "Ok, he could done "x" to stop my "y" but he didn't and now he is in the corner." To be honest, I don't think Sim is being played to his max potential in this match up (at least on xbox.)

    That sums up most of Sim's matches though anyway. Sim players have to have the utmost patience because they rarely get to be offensive, just zone and counter. Basically I see it like this: play solidly until Sim messes up and then mercilessly punish him.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    Fightcade/USF2: x64
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Adding:
    Ryu Matchups:
    vs Ryu: -
    vs Ken: 6-4
    vs E.Honda: 6-4
    vs Chun Li: 6-4
    vs Blanka: 6-4
    vs Zangief: 4-6
    vs Guile: 5.5-4.5
    vs Dhalsim: 4-6
    vs T.Hawk: 6-4
    vs Cammy: 6-4
    vs Fei Long: 6-4
    vs Dee Jay: 6-4
    vs Balrog: 4.5-5.5
    vs Vega: 4.5-5.5
    vs Sagat:5-5
    vs M.Bison:6-4

    As all of you know, ryu is the most balanced char in the game, i was forced to play ryu on ggpo, because ken in ST IMO is not as good as HDR Ken, i still having problems with ken though, but my heart is with ken(no homo).

    In my opinion the Honda vs Ken or Ryu matchup, it's harder for the fat guy to deal with ken than ryu, ima honda player too, so, i'm not talking just a ken player but a honda player too.

    The big arched fierce srk, gives to ken a big space and slower fireballs are perfect for traps and zoning, tatsu(aerial and normal) are very useful too for spacing.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

    The Crew - www.nohonorcrew.com/
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    I would put Ryu vs. Honda as 7-3, possible 8-2 in Ryu's favor. I'd put Ken vs. Honda as 6-4. Faster fireballs and especially fake fireball are much harder to deal with (at least for me) than Ken's wider arc SRK. Fake Fireball really makes it impossible to jump in and/or Sumo Smash on reaction once you work your way into that sweet spot range. I find myself having to work in a little closer than before against Ryu to be effective, basically not jumping or SS at all and just using footsies and HHS pressure.

    Ken's SRK takes longer to get around but the thing that I don't like the most is HP SRK taking away safe jumps (I like to safe jump, LOL).
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • KacomKacom Joined: Posts: 268
    Speaking of Honda. This is my chart based on mine and other peoples experiences.

    (Honda on the left)

    Ryu: 2-8
    Ken: 3-7
    Chun: 4-6
    Blanka: 7-3
    Zangief: 7-3
    Guile: 2-8
    Dhalsim: 4-6/5-5
    T Hawk: 6-4
    Cammy: 6-4
    Fei: 6-4
    DeeJay: 2-8
    Boxer: 4-6
    Claw: 4-6/5-5
    Sagat: 3-7
    Dic: 6-4

    YEEEUUUHHH LET'S GO FIREBALLS!
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Speaking of Honda. This is my chart based on mine and other peoples experiences.

    Ken: 7-3
    ...
    Zangief: 7-3
    So... Ken is as hard as Zangief is?

    Thelo Tip: Write your matchup ratings so that it's unambiguous who is on the left and who is on the right.

    Good examples:

    - Ryu 7 - 3 Honda
    - Ryu - Honda is 7-3
    - 7-3, Ryu's advantage
    - Ryu is on the left: 7-3 Honda, 6-4 Blanka, 5-5 Zangief [...]


    Bad examples:

    - It's 7-3 Ryu
    - It's 7-3
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,328
    You know what I was thinking?

    After this consensus chart is updated, a sticky should be created (which is locked) that Thelo is the only one who has control over it (Since he's the one updating everything).

    Next, someone should create a fancy high speed tier chart (Similar to Event Hubs or better) so players who browse this thread can look at updated tier list without having to browse this thread.

    I think many will agree that the Event Hubs tier list is full of errors and many players that come across that tier list will believe that's the consensus. It hasn't been updated since last year, so creating this sticky will be a good reference point for lurkers of this forum.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    I second that. Too many cooks in the kitchen only makes a mess.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Good idea!, but i think they(srk staff), have to give to thelo moderation powers in order to make sticky thread and only him can edit it and update it.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

    The Crew - www.nohonorcrew.com/
  • KacomKacom Joined: Posts: 268
    So... Ken is as hard as Zangief is?

    Thelo Tip: Write your matchup ratings so that it's unambiguous who is on the left and who is on the right.

    Good examples:

    - Ryu 7 - 3 Honda
    - Ryu - Honda is 7-3
    - 7-3, Ryu's advantage
    - Ryu is on the left: 7-3 Honda, 6-4 Blanka, 5-5 Zangief [...]


    Bad examples:

    - It's 7-3 Ryu
    - It's 7-3

    Shame on me for not paying attention. I should have stated Honda was on the left. Also I made a typo for Ken. It's kinda sad to see that you take me as an idiot that will flip flop where the characters are in the chart. **Edited my previous post
  • Ad-vitamAd-vitam Joined: Posts: 20
    I decided to revitalize the old leaderboard page I made and added some improvements b/c I needed to add some stuff to my portfolio.

    Just like before view all match up information including Wins/Losses to all the characters, number of times you've played as those characters Win/Loose/Draw. Now you can add multiple gamertags and compare and export as csv to Excel or Google Docs.

    The information is the same as Street Fighter? but expanded to every character's match up plus you don't have to wait for that flash to load.

    http://www.hdremixstats.com

    Advanced HD Remix Leaderboard Information http://www.hdremixstats.com/
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    I decided to revitalize the old leaderboard page I made and added some improvements b/c I needed to add some stuff to my portfolio.

    Just like before view all match up information including Wins/Losses to all the characters, number of times you've played as those characters Win/Loose/Draw. Now you can add multiple gamertags and compare and export as csv to Excel or Google Docs.

    The information is the same as Street Fighter? but expanded to every character's match up plus you don't have to wait for that flash to load.

    http://www.hdremixstats.com

    This is awesome! What service are you calling to get this data?
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Shame on me for not paying attention. I should have stated Honda was on the left. Also I made a typo for Ken. It's kinda sad to see that you take me as an idiot that will flip flop where the characters are in the chart. **Edited my previous post
    Thanks Kacom. I don't think you're an idiot, it's just sometimes pretty tricky to keep track of all these ratings, so I really want to be 100% sure that I get people's ratings right. Also it was a good excuse for me to remind others to make their ratings clear.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I still don't see a foundation to have a consensus chart. There are too many unknowns and disagreements that can't be squared away until these matches get played over and over again offline.

    I think it'd be better to compile what each individual player thinks for his character(s) and let the reader make the decision on whose matchup lists he wants to pay attention to (as seen on nh2's US ST chart). Thelo can then moderate that list by adding/editing submissions instead of averaging divergent numbers in matchups he may not be familiar with.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    I still don't see a foundation to have a consensus chart. There are too many unknowns and disagreements that can't be squared away until these matches get played over and over again offline.

    I think it'd be better to compile what each individual player thinks for his character(s) and let the reader make the decision on whose matchup lists he wants to pay attention to (as seen on nh2's US ST chart). Thelo can then moderate that list by adding/editing lists instead of averaging divergent opinions in matchups he may not be familiar with.


    That's not a bad idea, because I think player style also has a lot to do with personal match-up thoughts as well. Two equally good players could have two very different views of one match-up becuase of different styles and personal strengths (a turtle vs. an aggressive style, for example). Viewers could go more off lists of players that played a similiar style.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    I decided to revitalize the old leaderboard page I made and added some improvements b/c I needed to add some stuff to my portfolio.

    Just like before view all match up information including Wins/Losses to all the characters, number of times you've played as those characters Win/Loose/Draw. Now you can add multiple gamertags and compare and export as csv to Excel or Google Docs.

    The information is the same as Street Fighter? but expanded to every character's match up plus you don't have to wait for that flash to load.

    http://www.hdremixstats.com

    Nifty! Now I don't have to wade through the official site. And LOL @ flash being secure :lol:.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    Fightcade/USF2: x64
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Bad examples:

    - It's 7-3 Ryu

    I use this type of rating all the time. If a rating has only one character noted, then it means that character has the advantage. So, 7-3 Ryu means Ryu has the advantage over whoever the poster is talking about. For example, I think Ryu - Balrog is 4 Ryu - 6 Balrog, so if I post that the matchup is 6-4 Balrog, that means that Balrog has the advantage. It's intuitive IMO.

    Good stuff to Ad-vitam for the flashless stats site. IDK how you did that, but it's cool.

    I agree with Ganelon and mad possum about the consesus chart, but that's the reason a thread exists...for those people that want to see what top players rank certain matchups. The chart is Thelo's average of all the ratings he has received (which is what I and other players are interested in), and the thread contains the posts of various players' opinions on each matchup. It works well, and I hope Thelo continues what he's doing.

    Also, Thelo, you could request a Wiki account and just update the consensus chart there. That way, there would be one place for everybody to see the consensus tier chart. Just my .02 cents.
  • Ad-vitamAd-vitam Joined: Posts: 20
    Thank you! It's actually a small PHP proxy that connects to http://www.streetfighter.com/flash/sites/sfhd/xml/lookup.php the same one for the Flash site. You use the proxy to get around the same browser origin policy. It's using the the YUI connection manager from YUI Library Examples: Connection Manager: Retrieving a Yahoo! Weather RSS Feed to make an XHR connection. The XML service is directly from Capcom's page.

    Advanced HD Remix Leaderboard Information http://www.hdremixstats.com/
  • Ad-vitamAd-vitam Joined: Posts: 20
    I know right? You can dig out all the requests with Firebug hehehe.

    Advanced HD Remix Leaderboard Information http://www.hdremixstats.com/
  • Remy77077Remy77077 futility fighting Joined: Posts: 350
    This is awesome! What service are you calling to get this data?

    Thirded!

    This is cool Ad-vitam.

    You may not know, as it's just displaying the figures you get, but do you know exactly how the Fight Data Total's are calculated?

    I assume these are round counts from your ranked matches, but something doesn't seem to add up.

    My win: loss is 404: 105, yet my Fight Data is 934:99:11.

    Maybe I'm being very dumb (it's happened before I know :P), but surely for every match loss, I'd have to have lost at least 3 rounds. :-/
    The only explanation I can think of was if I quit mid-fight all the time (heh, yeah right) and it counted the match loss but not the round losses, or perhaps when my opponents quit out, it counts me as a 3-0 win no matter what the actual score was. It still seems an incredibly low amount of round losses though. Did I get that many quits against me in ranked? Hah, maybe, it was a while since I played it ^_^.

    Joke theory - maybe it doesn't count Akuma round losses! ;-)
    http://www.agoners.com My gaming website
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    Thank you! It's actually a small PHP proxy that connects to http://www.streetfighter.com/flash/sites/sfhd/xml/lookup.php the same one for the Flash site. You use the proxy to get around the same browser origin policy. It's using the the YUI connection manager from YUI Library Examples: Connection Manager: Retrieving a Yahoo! Weather RSS Feed to make an XHR connection. The XML service is directly from Capcom's page.

    You've got the skills to pay the bills my man.
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    I still don't see a foundation to have a consensus chart. There are too many unknowns and disagreements that can't be squared away until these matches get played over and over again offline.

    I think it'd be better to compile what each individual player thinks for his character(s) and let the reader make the decision on whose matchup lists he wants to pay attention to (as seen on nh2's US ST chart). Thelo can then moderate that list by adding/editing submissions instead of averaging divergent numbers in matchups he may not be familiar with.

    Well, Ganelon, you definitely have a basis for what you're saying given all of the hype that was around Honda one year and the new hype that is the Red Cyclone for Mother Russia this time around. I always looked at tier lists as being a compilation of what people think combined with raw empirical data. It's just in a nice and neat chart. It's going to change as time marches on, so why not make it easy for those who come run into it years from now, rather than having to sift through mountains of text?

    Just my two cents on it. I think the tier chart is a great way to capture that data and capsulize it. From there, if you want to know *why* the chart is the way it is, have a link available to breakdowns of the specific matchups. Start small and then have the option to scale out the information available. I think that's a better way to go...especially for those whose time available to look at such information is becoming limited (like ME!!). :)
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,328
    How do the mods feel about turning this thread to a sticky? It would probably get more eyes on it so people dont constantly reference the inaccurate EventHubs chart.

    I think it may be time to update the consensus chart now that Evo is long over don't you think?? :looney: How does giefs matchup numbers change after Evo? James Chen thinks he's top tier because Snake Eyez won with him at Evo. Do you agree/disagree with him?


    Anyway, I'm starting to believe Fei vs. Dhalsim may be 6-4 in Sim's favor now. I originally ranked it 6.5-3.5 in Sim's favor before.

    I think I heavily underated Fei's new rekka range in this matchup.
  • The Mad KingThe Mad King Hyou~ Joined: Posts: 262
    Only matchup numbers that would really change based on Evo would be vs. shotos (even or 6-4 Gief favor). The other top 8's that Snake Eyez faced:

    Tokido (Claw). Current matchup #s have it at 6-4 Claw and that's still pretty accurate. If Tokido had done max-range walldives it might have been a very different match.
    Afro Legends (Boxer). Definitely Gief advantage, maybe a bit wider (6.5-3.5 wouldn't be too much of a stretch).

    To be fair, the only matchups I can speak from experience on are Honda (which is still accurate on the chart, 7.5-2.5 is about right and it could easily be worse for Zangief), Dhalsim (which should be wider, 6.5-3.5 Dhalsim favor, if Sim doesn't mess up in the first 5 ticks it's pretty hard for Gief to get in), and Dictator (which should probably be 5-5, new DR makes Gief's non-splash meaties harder to actually exploit).
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Tokido (Claw). Current matchup #s have it at 6-4 Claw and that's still pretty accurate. If Tokido had done max-range walldives it might have been a very different match.

    Nah walldives in general don't work quite as well against Gief as they did in ST but i am unsure if Tokido knew that.
    Regardless he would probably have done a lot better if he had stuck to solely a ground game.
    Gief didn't really get any big buffs there against Claw.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Nah walldives in general don't work quite as well against Gief as they did in ST but i am unsure if Tokido knew that.
    Regardless he would probably have done a lot better if he had stuck to solely a ground game.
    Gief didn't really get any big buffs there against Claw.

    That's exactly the problem, he did nothing but a ground game. If he had gone to the wall more, he might have won. You obviously don't play Zangief and don't know how tough max-range wall dives are for him to deal with. Deal with?...He can't do shit against them. Too far for cr Fierce and j Strong, j Fierce can trade, but Zangief is usually behind in health for this match, either way Tokido didn't know what the fuck he was doing. Hell, even my Zangief could have beat him. Next time Tokido, play HDR, not ST.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    That's exactly the problem, he did nothing but a ground game. If he had gone to the wall more, he might have won. You obviously don't play Zangief and don't know how tough max-range wall dives are for him to deal with. Deal with?...He can't do shit against them. Too far for cr Fierce and j Strong, j Fierce can trade, but Zangief is usually behind in health for this match, either way Tokido didn't know what the fuck he was doing. Hell, even my Zangief could have beat him. Next time Tokido, play HDR, not ST.

    Sure.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • GoldenArchGoldenArch Joined: Posts: 389
    You obviously don't play Zangief and don't know how tough max-range wall dives are for him to deal with.

    You really don't need to play a character to know what will and what won't work against him.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    You really don't need to play a character to know what will and what won't work against him.

    I've played Shari's Vega with my Zangief, and he plays a ground game too. Let's just say that Ganelon (who does max range dives against my Zangief) is tougher to beat than Shari. People don't seem to know how good that tactic is vs Zangief.
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