How to fix Mortal Kombat

ShotgunSteveShotgunSteve Goes by HennersJoined: Posts: 575
This kind of thread was hated on the old SRK, but now it's kinda accepted...so...

I've done a lot of thinking, I like the style of Mortal Kombat. And the games are fun to dick around with. I wish they would be competitive, but unfortunately they just aren't designed that way. Mortal Kombat 2 had a combo system that through flaws in programming allowed air juggles and combos, MK3 tried to make it competitive by forcing a dial-a-combo system that made it more approachable but hindered real game play.

1) 2D
3) Mortal Kombat 2 gameplay style
3) add Hit Stun
4) More variation with "normal" moves
5) 3 games and all had a very abusable Back+LK sweep...let's change that
6) back to block
7) add super meter
8) change run to FF instead of a button
9) maybe a parry or just defend defense move
10) less abusive LP spam.
«1345

Comments

  • Hatred EdgeHatred Edge MAD STRUGGLE Joined: Posts: 16,103
    This kind of thread was hated on the old SRK, but now it's kinda accepted
    No, it's not.

    And add Super Meter? Add parry or a JD move? See that kid? That's why threads like these aren't liked.
    Has anyone thanked you today for not setting the whole world on fire?

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  • Tech RomancerTech Romancer PSN: Tech_Romancer Joined: Posts: 5,200
    I wonder what people like Black Shroud and Tim will make of this
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  • ShotgunSteveShotgunSteve Goes by Henners Joined: Posts: 575
    No, it's not.

    And add Super Meter? Add parry or a JD move? See that kid? That's why threads like these aren't liked.

    I'm just trying to think about how MK could have moved forward and not ended up being a joke.
  • clue2025clue2025 Brazilian Jiu-jitsu player Joined: Posts: 2,805
    If they made it just like UMK3 or MK2

    /thread
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  • krazykone123krazykone123 4D Joined: Posts: 2,842
    If they made it just like UMK3 or MK2

    /thread

    Yeah I think we're done here...
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,567 mod
    Problem is I believe that Boon has never really seen his game as a serious, competitive fighting game.
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  • ShotgunSteveShotgunSteve Goes by Henners Joined: Posts: 575
    Problem is I believe that Boon has never really seen his game as a serious, competitive fighting game.

    I thought MK3 was an attempt to make it serious?
  • Echo BlackEcho Black Huo! Joined: Posts: 705
    So your "fix" for Mortal Kombat is turning it into Street Fighter? While you're at it, why don't you simply go play SF?

    FYI there's a "parry" in the 3D MKs for PS2, it's not like the SF3 one and more akin to SFA's Alpha Counter than anything else, though. Also I think it's cute how you equate "parry and just defend" mechanics with the immediate betterment of another series. :rofl:




    ...While I'm at it, sorry to everyone else if this is a troll thread and I answered it seriously.
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  • ShotgunSteveShotgunSteve Goes by Henners Joined: Posts: 575
    So your "fix" for Mortal Kombat is turning it into Street Fighter? While you're at it, why don't you simply go play SF at that point?

    Also FYI there's a "parry" in the 3D MKs for PS2, it's not like the SF3 one and more akin to SFA's Alpha Counter than anything else. Also I think it's cute how you equate "parry and just defend" mechanics with the immediate betterment of another series. :rofl:


    ...And while I'm at it, sorry to everyone else if this is a troll thread and I answered it seriously.

    It's not SF, I said "MK2 style gameplay" just...with extra shit. The breaker in the 3D MKs was...yeah...

    I was just thinking about what i'd have liked to see it evolve into.
  • NAPNAP Joined: Posts: 1,812
    Whoever owns the rights to MK now should realize what a gold mine they are sitting on right now. With the success of games like Megaman 9, Street Fighter 2 HD Remix and Bionic Commando Rearmed, do they not realize how many people would love to see a new MK game with digitized graphics? Of course I don't know how expensive this would be for them to make but I know nostalgia alone would be enough to get people to buy a game like that. Make it violent as hell with a sense of humor like the first three games and I think they'd have a hit on their hands.
  • hacksparrowhacksparrow Banned Joined: Posts: 331
    do they not realize how many people would love to see a new MK game with digitized graphics?
    how many?
  • EshmaseshEshmasesh Unblockable IRL Joined: Posts: 531
    I thought MK3 was an attempt to make it serious?
    Nope. It's a lot like MvC2 in that it accidentally turned out to be a great game.

    IMO I'd like to see them do another 3D game, I know they keep screwing it up over and over but they got REALLY close to a good game with MK vs. DC. So close, it hurts. If they had fixed these problems it would have been excellent:

    1) Reduce tech time on grabs and remove the ability to reduce grab damage. A good minor change would be to make grabs unbreakerable to help counter turtling.
    2) Remove freefall kombat and test your might mashing garbage from gameplay. Keep klose kombat though, this was implemented well.
    3) Reduce rage gain, remove unblockable shenanigans from breakers and rage mode.
    4) PLAY TEST THE GAME and remove the obvious dumb infinites. Jesus christ.
    5) Decrease the recovery time on most projectiles to make them more useful.
    6) More moves! The basics of the game were solid, but having a small move list limited the depth of gameplay and screwed over certain characters.
    7) If you're going to waste time creating fatalities, the least you can do is make them gruesome as fuck. Most of the Heroic Brutalities were WEAK, not even in a funny way.
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  • NAPNAP Joined: Posts: 1,812
    how many?

    Literally billions.
  • ShotgunSteveShotgunSteve Goes by Henners Joined: Posts: 575
    Nope. It's a lot like MvC2 in that it accidentally turned out to be a great game.

    IMO I'd like to see them do another 3D game, I know they keep screwing it up over and over but they got REALLY close to a good game with MK vs. DC. So close, it hurts. If they had fixed these problems it would have been excellent:

    1) Reduce tech time on grabs and remove the ability to reduce grab damage. A good minor change would be to make grabs unbreakerable to help counter turtling.
    2) Remove freefall kombat and test your might mashing garbage from gameplay. Keep klose kombat though, this was implemented well.
    3) Reduce rage gain, remove unblockable shenanigans from breakers and rage mode.
    4) PLAY TEST THE GAME and remove the obvious dumb infinites. Jesus christ.
    5) Decrease the recovery time on most projectiles to make them more useful.
    6) More moves! The basics of the game were solid, but having a small move list limited the depth of gameplay and screwed over certain characters.
    7) If you're going to waste time creating fatalities, the least you can do is make them gruesome as fuck. Most of the Heroic Brutalities were WEAK, not even in a funny way.

    MK vs DC I never picked up, only MK game I do not own. Armageddon kinda made me (finally) drop the franchise. I really liked Deception, though they came close with Deception.
  • hacksparrowhacksparrow Banned Joined: Posts: 331
    Literally billions.

    plus
    Yeah I think we're done here...

    equals :D
  • Kalyx triaDKalyx triaD Serious Business Joined: Posts: 2,805
    An excerpt from a blog I did on this very subject:
    3D vs 2D:

    One of the biggest issues with Midway is their 'straddling the fence' when it comes to what they want MK to be. I think they have problems upgrading the engine while not wanting to let go of classic MK konventions. For instance, right now you could duck a fireball (classic MK), sidestep it (recent MK), or block it. In 2D, blocking or ducking was your options (and jumping!). But with 3D in the mix, you were able to sidestep. This ruined one of MK's stables: the projectile. What's MK if you can't toss something, right? In this manner you can see how Midway threatens their own engine when they try adding elements without subtracting elements that don't make sense together.

    My answer to this is to add a uniform multi-directional option for all projectiles for all characters. Now Scorpion's start-up animation for his spear will insight a response from his opponent, but will they know if the spears going upper-right or lower-left! What we have now is an interesting event where both players have viable options that also makes use of 3D movement. And how about this; ducking a projectile is etched in MK gameplay, and you may want move upward while still wanting to defend against Scorpion's spear... To this I give the Kombat Roll, a way of moving in 8 directions while, essentially, ducking! The actual 'ducking frames' would last an instant so timing would be stressed, and the recovery animation would leave you in base ducking position before you can rise. This adds a risk-reward factor that I personally believe makes a good game.

    And just like that I made MK's older konventions relevant to MK and 3D.

    Updated Attacks:

    Scorpion and some other character having the same kick or punch is fucking illegal. Stop it Midway, I'm serious. Every character needs their own standards, with new properties to go with them. This includes Counter Hit properties. Every fighting game and their mothers have CH properties. A CH status usually changes move properties, commonly increased damage. So how about Sub-Zero's freeze-ball catches you while you're just standing there and you could break out after an instant. All Subby did was buy him some tactical movement time at best, right. But when his freeze-ball catches you on CH, you stay frozen longer and he has some deadly options for ya.

    And do you really wanna just pull people with Scorp's spear? MK vs DC introduced the welcome element of Pro-Moves, where savy players can unleash EX-like versions of special moves. Maybe I should have the option of just throwing the spear at you and being done with it, or maybe yank you halfway? This could be used to set up spacing and tactical movement, especially is Midway wants to keep the (admittingly fun) element of interactive stages.

    Jump, Jump, Criss Cross Will Make You...:

    Aw yes, jumping. Jumping in fighting games are approached two ways; the 2D leap kinda jump that clears 16ft easily, and the more conservative 3D hop. MK is caught in a cross roads about what to do with jumping. MKDA and Deception had the hop, while MKA and vsDC returned with the leap. Personally, since I want MK to embrace 3D movement, I think the 8ft hop should return... with some updated properties ofcourse.

    Now this idea may incite some rage, but I think jumping should be assigned to a button, preferably the R-Trigger (while the Ducking and Kombat Rolling should be on the L-Trigger). Why? Well it goes back to the importance of 3D movement and gets into intuitive control design. You see... I fucking... hate... having to use a button to sidestep. That shit is archaic, lame, and overall counter-intuitive. If I wanna move up or down, dammit I should simply move the stick in said directions. So moving down on the stick would have your character walk into the foreground. But I have ducking on the L-Trigger, so am I a hypocrite?! Here me out before you answer.

    The new properties I want for jumping is for it to be an inverse of ducking; you can jump clear over [some] projectiles and low attacks while you can duck [most] projectiles and high attacks. To further make the point of the actions being conceptual opposites of each other, I placed them on either triggers. Also you can jump in place or in 8 directions just as you can duck in place or Kombat Roll in 8 directions. This adds options, and the fight will just plain look cooler with all the vying for position taking place on screen.
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  • ViacheViache Joined: Posts: 781
    Now this idea may incite some rage, but I think jumping should be assigned to a button, preferably the R-Trigger (while the Ducking and Kombat Rolling should be on the L-Trigger). Why? Well it goes back to the importance of 3D movement and gets into intuitive control design. You see... I fucking... hate... having to use a button to sidestep. That shit is archaic, lame, and overall counter-intuitive. If I wanna move up or down, dammit I should simply move the stick in said directions. So moving down on the stick would have your character walk into the foreground. But I have ducking on the L-Trigger, so am I a hypocrite?! Here me out before you answer.

    Obviously just my opinion, but I hate loading up a game and seeing button commands for jumping and ducking and shit. I'd just steal Soul Calibur's 8-way run system. Joystick direction is the direction you walk. Guard + up to jump, guard + down to duck. I guess you could keep the run button if the 3D MK games still have that.
  • Machineking1313Machineking1313 Infamous User Joined: Posts: 1,446
    The new MK game is close to being rated AO....should be interesting, maybe next year Evo can have an MK game...no, that would upset Capcom.
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  • ShotgunSteveShotgunSteve Goes by Henners Joined: Posts: 575
    The new MK game is close to being rated AO....should be interesting, maybe next year Evo can have an MK game...no, that would upset Capcom.

    Evo2k5 I believe had a vote in for a game and MK:Deception was one of the choices.

    I don't seem to learn...I buy new MK games, I enjoy them for a few hours, maybe a few days if lucky, and the flaws start showing. And then I unrelentlessly bash the games, but soon as the next one is announced I become giddy with glee.

    I thought I learned from MK vs DC, I managed to avoid that one.

    But MK9...I can't help be feel excited for.

    Mortal Kombat, my guilty pleasure....
  • Black ShroudBlack Shroud Spirits Society Joined: Posts: 1,167
    I wonder what people like Black Shroud and Tim will make of this

    People like Black Shroud would like to make MK into this

    Cyrax vs Tara

    Sektor vs Cyrax

    Cyrax vs Sub-Zero

    Tara vs Sektor

    Rain alpha test


    Also, MK Team should hire some actual testers for god's sake, people find infinites in their games next day past release, and all we hear from them is "All games have infinites" and "Instead of gameplay, you should get pleasure from the blood and cool fatalities". And generally, you can teach 3 years old to do most of those infinites.
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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    Evo2k5 I believe had a vote in for a game and MK:Deception was one of the choices.

    I don't seem to learn...I buy new MK games, I enjoy them for a few hours, maybe a few days if lucky, and the flaws start showing. And then I unrelentlessly bash the games, but soon as the next one is announced I become giddy with glee.

    I thought I learned from MK vs DC, I managed to avoid that one.

    But MK9...I can't help be feel excited for.

    Mortal Kombat, my guilty pleasure....

    You sound like a typical short term memory fanboy then. The majority of competitive fighting game fans don't care about making a shitty franchise into a competitive fighter.
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  • Kalyx triaDKalyx triaD Serious Business Joined: Posts: 2,805
    You sound like a typical short term memory fanboy then. The majority of competitive fighting game fans don't care about making a shitty franchise into a competitive fighter.

    I've actually never heard of this kind of fanboy, but I have heard of negative, mean-spirited elitist.
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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    If being able to realize that the MK series has been a series of mostly crappy fighting games and accidentally competitive ones makes me an elitist, I guess that makes me an elitist, but to me it seems flaming any thread on SRK or doing anything but giving props to people making hackneyed topics makes you an elitist.
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  • ShotgunSteveShotgunSteve Goes by Henners Joined: Posts: 575
    If being able to realize that the MK series has been a series of mostly crappy fighting games and accidentally competitive ones makes me an elitist, I guess that makes me an elitist, but to me it seems flaming any thread on SRK or doing anything but giving props to people making hackneyed topics makes you an elitist.

    I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said except the fanboy part. I'm not fanatical about it, I just enjoy them for what they are.

    This thread was a "what if" not a "what they should do". It was a "what if MK continued to evolve the same way Capcom and SNK fighters did". Things they could have added that other fighters had.

    I should have phrased it better in the OP. In retrospect it certainly seems like the "save MK" sort of thread, but it was intended as a "How they could have not become a joke"
  • AquasharkAquashark Mekong Delta AirRaid Joined: Posts: 1,540
    i can't stand 3D MK games solely because the movement/physics feels awkward especially with jumping/falling (seems jerky or too sudden, i can't quite explain it).. this is also present to a certain degree in games like VF, Tekken and Soul Calibur

    i'm glad SF4 didn't have the same defect.. it got me worried when i found out it will be in 3D

    so yeah.. fix that, add hitstun and remove chip damage from normals.. that would be a good start
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  • Kalyx triaDKalyx triaD Serious Business Joined: Posts: 2,805
    If being able to realize that the MK series has been a series of mostly crappy fighting games and accidentally competitive ones makes me an elitist, I guess that makes me an elitist...

    Strawman, that wasn't my stance.

    You called him a fanboy of some sub-type you created right here and now, and then made a generalization about fighting game fans not wanting MK to be better (wrong). Nobody argued that MK wasn't crappy (case in point this thread) so don't try to use that in defense.
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  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,707
    Even 2.5D would work in MK's favor. Not saying that "If it worked for Street Fighter..." but considering that the strongest MK titles were 2D, and nothing past that has even come remotely close, I would say that a step to bridge the two would really help matters.

    Aside from the massive steps that would need to be taken to actually create a game that doesn't have insane imbalances and infinites and stupidity abound.
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  • CryohCryoh Rock Shock Thunderous Beat Joined: Posts: 9,639
    Kalyx, any way that you could repost that MK blog to this site's blog function?
  • Kalyx triaDKalyx triaD Serious Business Joined: Posts: 2,805
    Kalyx, any way that you could repost that MK blog to this site's blog function?

    Ironically enough some parts of the original blog I no longer agree with and my ideas have changed somewhat. I suppose I could copy-pasta the parts I still agree with (as with the paragraphs in this thread) and simply add the new ideas I have. I never used the blog function here so I guess it's a start.
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  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,599
    Problem is I believe that Boon has never really seen his game as a serious, competitive fighting game.

    indeed.

    mk was supposed to be aquick project, according to him.

    its much easier to program a block button than it is to make back = block. mortal kombat has always been a lazy attempt from a development standpoint.

    really theres so many problems with mk that I dont have time to list them all.

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  • BeGuiledBeGuiled Joined: Posts: 365
    What does everyone around here seem to hate about the Mortal Kombat games?

    I mean, I haven't played any of those games in a while, but I remember the MK games in the mid 90's alot more than I remembered the street fighter games. They seemed more well known and popular at that time.
  • Kalyx triaDKalyx triaD Serious Business Joined: Posts: 2,805
    MK games are often an unbalanced mess of a fighting game hidden under silly annual gimmicks. It's lack of depth is a major point of issue. Also factor in the developer's disinterest in making MK a truly competitive, tourny viable game. Me and my friends brainstormed better Mortal Kombat games than the ones that were released, just as many others have done I'm sure. I believe a lot of the frustration comes from the fact that Mortal Kombat indeed has one of the strongest mythologies in fighting games. A decent back story packed with a subpar fighting engine.
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  • Black ShroudBlack Shroud Spirits Society Joined: Posts: 1,167
    Mortal Kombat indeed has one of the strongest mythologies in fighting games. A decent back story packed with a subpar fighting engine.
    Recent MK games are some decent visual novels with various minigames that offfer you control over characters (one of them being game's VS mode). When MK vs DC came out, I believe many people enjoyed its story mode ....on Youtube.
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  • EshmaseshEshmasesh Unblockable IRL Joined: Posts: 531
    MK games are often an unbalanced mess of a fighting game hidden under silly annual gimmicks. It's lack of depth is a major point of issue. Also factor in the developer's disinterest in making MK a truly competitive, tourny viable game. Me and my friends brainstormed better Mortal Kombat games than the ones that were released, just as many others have done I'm sure. I believe a lot of the frustration comes from the fact that Mortal Kombat indeed has one of the strongest mythologies in fighting games. A decent back story packed with a subpar fighting engine.
    Not to mention that they keep recreating the fighting engine every single time they create a new game, which is extremely stupid from a development POV. I will never understand why Boon was so adamant about running MK into the ground. "Oh, all games have infinites, so we don't care if Superman and The Flash have full-screen infinites from spamming the same one/two moves. Just watch our instead!"
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  • mr_punkmr_punk Joined: Posts: 534
    What does everyone around here seem to hate about the Mortal Kombat games?I mean, I haven't played any of those games in a while, but I remember the MK games in the mid 90's alot more than I remembered the street fighter games. They seemed more well known and popular at that time.
    yes, they were very popular and they made a lot of money. however, some hardcore FG players think FG companies should develop FG with their interests in mind (ie: being competitive, tournaments, etc) rather than being motivated purely by greed and profit. you know, like Capcom did with SF4. oops, bad example.
  • BeGuiledBeGuiled Joined: Posts: 365
    come to think of it, I didn't care much about the MK gameplay itself and didn't consider myself a fighting game enthusiast or guru. I mostly played 2-player mode (by myself) to practice my fatalities, babalities, animalities, etc. and trying to memorize the inputs for each of them.
  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 21,581 mod
    MK games make a bunch of money by being shitty. Really, what will be the incentive to make a better game if they can sell them as the brain vomit that they currently are?
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  • Kalyx triaDKalyx triaD Serious Business Joined: Posts: 2,805
    Yeah, MKvDC just barely saved Midway from total ruin (for a little while), so people are buying. I suppose it's similar to how Wii sales like hotcakes despite it not focusing on pulling core gamers. MK is not for core fighting gamers.
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  • SlamtasticSlamtastic Joined: Posts: 574
    So your "fix" for Mortal Kombat is turning it into Street Fighter? While you're at it, why don't you simply go play SF?

    SF doesn't have MK characters.
  • AzuroAzuro C L E B O Y Z Joined: Posts: 1,132
    MKDC was a pretty good start if you exclude the infinites and FFK/TYM. They need to keep that engine, and change the following:

    -Change block to back/down-back
    -Change backdash to double-tap back
    -Remove Free Fall & Test Your Might
    -Remove the infinites
    -Speed up movement
    -ADD REPTILE! :D

    They do that...I will be fine with the game. I never hated MKDC...just no one would play and the online was one of the worst in gaming history.
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  • Kalyx triaDKalyx triaD Serious Business Joined: Posts: 2,805
    Having a block button doesn't bother me. And Free Fall is actually cool, makes the fights epic in a way.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,428 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The best way to fix Mortal Kombat is to play MK2 or UMK3 instead.

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  • hacksparrowhacksparrow Banned Joined: Posts: 331
    i want to change the control panel on a mortal kombat 2 cab to seimitsu parts is there a lot of milling involved? shouldnt this be in tech talk?
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    i want to change the control panel on a mortal kombat 2 cab to seimitsu parts is there a lot of milling involved? shouldnt this be in tech talk?

    That's what a lot of people were about to ask you.
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  • Black ShroudBlack Shroud Spirits Society Joined: Posts: 1,167
    SF doesn't have MK characters.
    Samurai Shodown series would be a better pick, having violence and even bigger character/special move variety, and cast, than MK. Also, its mythology is just as big as MK's.
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  • SimpleKissSimpleKiss Getting Hit in the Mouth Joined: Posts: 1,005
    I hear UMK3 is the shit. If that game is fucking awesome why hasn't it gotten more respect around here? Honestly curious. Would be nice to see more legit MK stuff around. And I think a lot of people want MK to be legit, because they have some really awesome characters.

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  • Pablo_the_MexPablo_the_Mex Blond Kanye Status Joined: Posts: 8,119
    It wasn't until I saw that one guys youtube page from Venezuela that I FINALLY saw what real high level UMK3 looks like. Good stuff. Now MKvsDC, that was horrible.

  • Kim Sue-ilKim Sue-il Call me JoJo! Joined: Posts: 1,799
    If they made it just like UMK3 or MK2

    /thread

    Best solution! Close thread.
    "Opponents are happy when they're winning, when in fact they already lost. That is the Joseph Joestar way."

    UMK3/SFEX2+/JJBA: HFTF > other fighters
  • ShotgunSteveShotgunSteve Goes by Henners Joined: Posts: 575
    I think a lot of people here want a viable competitive MK game because it sells. MK with 2 and 3 became more popular than SF, despite SF being a better game. The style was more approachble to the masses, I remember hearing far more hype for MK4 than SF3.

    Also I think boon thinks he invented the fireball.

    "since the beginning, one of the things that's separated us from other fighting games is the crazy moves we've put in it, like fireballs and all the magic moves, so to speak."
  • EkshEksh whatistheswitcherlov Joined: Posts: 308
    It wasn't until I saw that one guys youtube page from Venezuela that I FINALLY saw what real high level UMK3 looks like. Good stuff. Now MKvsDC, that was horrible.

    Got a link?

    The latest FBA supports SEGA MK2,3 and UMK3. It's not arcade perfect, but It's better than nothing. Hoping that GGPO/Supercade will update their nFBA base and add the games someday
    GGPO/Supercade - Eksh
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