Makoto Strategy and Match-ups

Roy0Roy0 Team NAHJoined: Posts: 543
Let's get some Makoto matchup discussions going here! :woot:

(updating for AE: matchups will either have full writeups or links to where the original writeup was found.

Note: many of the new matchup information was grabbed from the AEMakoto Guide
Abel's AA options not being any good is a myth. If you jump at a competent Abel player while he's standing,
your're going to get low fierce juggled into either air grab or ultra 1, and then you're going to die when you have
no way out of his ambiguous roll and throw mixup game. Between stand strong, stand fierce, low forward,
and low fierce, Abel has virtually every jumping angle covered, and can potentially take half of your life if he
clips you with the end of his elbow.

Your best option is probably to vary your jump timing/trajectory with tsurugi, but only if he's using ultra 1.
If he has ultra 2, you absolutely cannot jump at him when he has it stocked. Even if he has ultra 1, you still
run a huge risk of getting juggled into an untechable knockdown and thrown into his ambiguous grinder.

Keep yourself grounded and use your good pokes. Low fierce or stand strong careless rolls, and use your
various AA normals on his likely jumping attack of jump forward. Watch out for his jump jab, which has a
strange hitbox and seems like it can stuff almost anything seemingly at random. Don't get predictable with
poke patterns, or he'll EX rekka through and put the hurt on. The absolute most important thing to remember
is that you must not get knocked down; your entire gameplan should revolve around making him attempt to
break your wall of pokes.

If he does his ultra 2, you need to instantly eyeball the distance between yourself and Abel and decide if you
can jump over him. If you can, jump over attempt to punish; if not, jump back to safety and punish (preferably
with ultra) when it runs out of steam right in front of you. From what I've seen, there is no spacing where you
can't escape that ultra if you immediately use the correct jump. Like I said, don't get predictable in your poking
and you can keep yourself relatively safe.

once again s.mk works like a beast for keeping him zoned, I think this normal in general needs to be
abused more, all I can think of it reminding me of is a linkable chun/dictator RH. other than that for
normals, c.mp, s.mp, f.mp, c.lk all work pretty well, just make sure you're not getting within tornado
throw range unless you're somewhat sure they aren't going to see karakusa coming,
WHEN IT DOES LAND, try to go for some fp-cancel-karakusa resets, mix up after hayate with IA tsurugis,
there's a lot of mindfucks you can play with abel since he really doesn't have a way around solid normal
mixups, except possibly getting through one with EX COD(which isn't that threatening in general)
Another note about his wheel kick... I've had quite a bit of luck punishing it on reaction with lp, mp and ex fukiage. Be prepared to juggle. Even if you trade, you can juggle with a charged lp hayate, or a mp hayate and win the trade. The only time you actually have to KARA fukiage to juggle in this reaction is on trade, so... If you trade fukiage with wheel kick, kara fukiage then ex tsurugi, or simple juggle with hayate. The choice is yours. Either way, he's not doing wheel kick anymore. The last thing I've been doing against wheel kick is dashing under it, but this is very risky, and not worth mastering in my opinion. Good Abels won't let you do this with their spacing




Example Videos:
:
anytime he air fireballs your rush punches will own him for free everytime.
(which one you use depends on spacing, all own him for free)

heres where the mixup starts - if you want, you can use a delayed EX rush
punch that will own him for free, and then juggle if hes in the corner OR you
can do the EX rush punch on reaction, which will whiff and prob cross him up,
and go straight into karakusa or whatever you want to do. its a gamble like a
reset because after the ex rush im think he lands right when you recover.
This matchup seems helacious. But it's actually not that bad.

A lot of the details have been covered, as ex hayate really shuts out teleporting and air fireballs (good Akumas will catch on and start doing low to the ground air fireballs). Fwd dashing also really hopes close the distance, especially against teleport. Instead of the zoning, I'd rather focus on the rush down aspect of Akuma's game.

And that would be the vortex. I have never been beaten out clean by the xu tatsu vs any form of fukiage. As an Akuma user, I set it up in training mode, thinking a lot of the Akuma's I fight might just be bad. Well, nope. The lp fukiage, at WORST, will trade with the xu tatsu. You win this trade, because your fukiage will do 100 dmg and his xu tatsu only does 80 dmg maximum. In most cases, you'll be able to juggle. If you use mp, hp, or ex hayate, Makoto will go under the xu tatsu and dodge it, but the Akuma user can punish with a c.rh at the least. Be weary of these options.

Also keep in mind that Akuma users will catch on to your ex karakusas, and fish for them by cancelling normals into srk. This is in general, but unless you're ready to depend on lp fukiage against the vortex, I don't recommend getting ex karakusa happy. Even worse than other characters, Akuma can cancel his normals into his demon, and this is not something you want.

Her ex oroshi on his wakeup will make even his ex srk whiff, but learn the timing on it, and don't do it against wakeup demon Akumas. If you do it too early, you can eat the tail end of a hp and ex dp, so one general timing and you can tag him out of lp dp, and make the other ones whiff.

I was beating his s.rh approaches clean with c.mp, so keep this check in your arsenal in the matchup.

A final note to remember, even though it is more of an emphasis rather than something new, is that when you safe jump Akuma with the tsurugi after a knockdown (any knockdown), if he does wakeup teleport, I was able to catch ALL of his teleports with an ex hayate on reaction. This is very benefitial to staying on top.

@16:25

General Strat:

Standing and crouching strong own Viper's burning kicks. I don't recommend trying to
EX Karakusa them,
since the grab won't catch up if she crosses up.

- if Viper is flighing your way, Mp Fugaki gets right up her ass.
- st. MP again is pretty danm good poke/stuff/AA in the fight

- i try not to karakusa too much, that woman punishes hard, i dunno how to do it effectively yet. Very fun
fight:D

Against IA Tsurugi, HP Thunder Knuckle and Ultra 1 beat Tsurugi, however EX Seismo and
Burn kick lose

Example Videos:


Matchup: 4-6
NinjaCW vs. Dave Cardell


General Strat:
- ax kick beats/trades aolt of his AAs, and he has a few of em
- RuffKicks are not safe, block and do your thing

Example Videos:

General Strat:

Depending on how close they're following the fireball, you can EX karakusa or kara EX karakusa.

Example Videos:
Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
«13456760

Comments

  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    :

    First things first: Your focus should be to knock him down. That will let you get in,
    which is the most important part of the matchup.

    1- c.fp stuffs a few of Dhalsim's pokes, namely his s.fp and his c.fp. As I was getting
    further along, I would spam c.fps with Makoto whenever I thought he was going to do s.fp.
    It keeps them honest - They can't just throw out s.fps to keep you out. I've managed to hit
    c.fp against a jumping f.fp, too - that was quite funny.

    2- EX Hayate is your friend. Most Dhalsims that zone use a few tools, like s.fp and yoga fires.
    EX Hayate is pretty fast, and even if you trade, it'll knock Dhalsim down, meaning you can now
    get in with a quick dash or two.

    Once you get in, it's a matter of doing Makoto's standard close pokes (f.mp, s.mp, c.mp, f.lk,
    etc) to wear him down. Pay close attention to how he's guarding. If he tends to guard high, hit
    him with a c.lk -> hayate. If he tends to guard low, EX Oroshi is your friend. If you're good
    enough with it. mix in kara karas after f.mp. f.lk is riskier because it takes longer to recover
    and has a longer startup, which means I've often seen people jump out of it.

    Pick Abare Tosonami as your Ultra. Seriously. With it, you become such a threat at range
    (no more yoga fires, and if you correctly anticipate a poke you can easily ultra) that Dhalsim
    now has to get close to do any sort of damage.
    He has to do more than FB poke against you honestly, I haven't played a great one but you can
    stuff all his pokes except for the low hitting limb but when that whiffs you can c.mp to hit him.
    Try to play patient. I have even just jumped at him and Tsurugi'd a limb...

    Against j.fierce you can focus on reaction and he will get knocked down, just dash in once and
    you´re in his face. Like ninjacw said you just have to play patiently since she cant withstand a lot
    of damage. Also, his fireball has really slow recovery so try to get ultra 2 by focusing some of his
    fireballs at the start of the round and then punish him for using them.
    here is a good counter to all dhalsims 'low' pokes (df+hp, df+mp, df+lp and st short from the right ranges); cr lk buffer ex/hp hayate. These pokes of sim go under all your pokes except for cr hp (which is too unsafe mid screen) and cr lk, so its a good way to get in and close the dist. If sim goes for another poke he will get counter hit. And since hp hayate hits at full range it is pretty safe more or less on block. Note you have to be a bit closer for the hp hayate buffer so as not to whiff it in front of sim.


    Matchup: 5-5 (4-6)

    General Strat:

    Example Videos:

    Matchup: 6-4 (5-5)
    Matchup: 5-5 (4-6)

    General Strat:
    Gouken, well he punishes karakusa hard so using it really has to be trained into them.
    Also as awesome as st. MP is you got to cool it down your going to eat counter.
    Honestly I was losing hard till I started really abusing my kara normal grab to train him as
    he can't nuetral jump punish that and when I baited a nuetral jump I was able to get an EX
    fukiage after the fp hayate. Don't do it after MP or lp as your to far away and his nj. fp will eat you.

    Example Videos:

    Example Videos:
    @ 1:40

    Matchup: 6-4 (5-5)

    General Strat:
    it seems she beats him air-to-air, jump on him for relatively free
    [I'm sure he has some anti-airs besides Ultra II] & seems to be able to
    cross him up a lot more easily than others since he's wide and can poke
    the hell out of him on the ground since he can't duck s. MK like a lot of the cast

    Example Videos:

    Matchup: 4-6

    General Strat:

    Neutral jump RH beats headbutt.
    don't go for karak pretty much at all, his command grab will stomp you for it.
    I was pretty sure I beat headbutt with jump RH tsurugi, i'll have to lab that one,
    but delaying your jumps with tsurugi can mess with headbutt timing.
    kara hayate-block, forward mp, forward mk move in pretty well

    that's all I got for now, I forgot what I was doing on his wakeup, I think it was
    meaty s.mp into whatever or meaty chops.

    From far enough away, you can standing mp his headbutt. It beats it clean,
    but you'll trade if you try to react to a headbutt up close... and of course this
    trade is not in your favor.

    You CAN fukiage his butt splash, but I prefer to just focus and release if
    he lands in front, or dash and karakusa if he lands behind. Oichio destroys
    your karakusa, so don't use it too often, however, don't forget about it.
    It's good in certain situations.

    I haven't played any human hondas that gave me trouble yet, but I got
    WALLED by the hardest AI Honda. Him sitting on charge with a life lead was just
    too godlike.
    IA Tsurugi - Ultra 1 fucks over Oichio happy Hondas. So there is a way to keep him
    somewhat honest with his command throw to set your own up.

    IA Tsurugi on wake up is good against those guys who like that double Oichio shit or after his Hands FADC
    Oichio attempts.

    Mpx3 xx MP or EX Hayate
    Fierce feint MPx2 xx MP or EX Hayate
    EX Hayate in the corner, lp Fukiage, EX Tsurugi

    Example Videos:
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • blackaddeblackadde Don't let me down! Joined: Posts: 4,395 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    if you plan on consolidating all the talk in the thread in those two posts, please put dates by the advice. nothing worse than reading through matchup information that's out of date or disproved two months down the line.
    The Rindoukan Bible: A Makoto Guidebook - http://otersi.com/rindoukan/
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    For Jury, early j.hp hits the up kick part of her fireball. After that, it's a matter of guessing whether she's
    going to throw a high one or a low one. The safest bet is to focus dash until you're in a range where she
    doesn't want to throw fireballs anymore. Don't dash in her face. From my experience, you want to stay
    just outside of standing mp for most of your match ups, since spamming it creates a wall a lot of
    characters can't poke through, and if you want to sneak in, your forward normals will get you in there fast.

    As for pin wheels, wait til she's spaced it wrong. I had a lot of success with c.mp xx mp hayate. Her
    EX pinwheel is pretty free on block. If she likes to wake up EX Pinwheel, NinjaCW was empty jumping
    over it and dashing behind her for a free Ultra 1. I'm assuming you could do the same with U2.
    @ 4:41


    :

    Against stepback IA Tsurgi, Ken can Ultra 1 this set up, however, it only does the partial ultra,
    not full animation (with the kicks).



    this match is all ground game. No one is allowed to jump in this match-up unless for a cross-up after
    a knockdown. s.MP is the answer for just about all of Dictator's jump ins (c.MK might be as well but I
    forgot to try it), while s.HK is Dic's answer to all of Makoto's jump ins. From what I played, it felt like
    Makoto had 5 major tools in this match up:

    1: s.MP
    2: c.FP
    3: (EX) Karakusa
    4: EX Oroshi
    5: Ultra 1

    s.MP is your only footsie tool here. It can either beat or trade with Dictator's s.MK, s.HK, c.MP,
    (EX) Psycho Crusher, (EX) Scissor Kick, etc. Basically, it has the potential to beat everything he has,
    it's just dependent on the spacing. My gameplan throughout my matches were to get in close by making
    him scared to press a button to keep me out (fearing s.MP) and dash in to land a grab for a combo. Problem
    with Karakusa is it's range is shit, and Dictator's walk speed is too damn good against Makoto. This is
    where c.HP comes to play. After getting Dic to hold back after getting outpoked by your s.MP you can
    proceed to dash in. If he continues holding back instead of crouch block, c.HP will stop him and you score
    a knockdown. Bait EX Psycho if he has meter and punish it with dash Karakusa or EX Karakusa, in case
    he tries to mash you after the EX Psycho. Once he starts fearing the c.HP and begins crouch blocking, that's
    when you dash Karakusa. So basically, after you dash, you have 3 options:

    - (EX) Karakusa
    - c.HP
    - s.MP

    The main use for EX Oroshi is to get out off Scissor kick corner pressure when it happens. Outside of that,
    I found myself constantly having meter or super in the match because I'm mostly just pressing s.MP.
    I tried OSing with Hayate during the s.MP footsies game and found that if the distance in which it hits is too
    wide the Hayate will whiff, which of course isn't good. So I opted not to go for OS Hayate in the matches I
    played. Even without that the match up seemed managable.

    Right now, I'd rate it probably 4.5/5.5, if not 4/6, Dictator's favor. Mainly because a lot of trades when they
    happen are in Dic's favor, Makoto has 950 health, and Dic's walk speed shits on Karakusa and allows him to
    tick throw well. It overall feels very winnable though.
    [/QUOTE]
    -You can beat any of his headstomps clean with fukiage, including EX. This requires quick reactions; it will still stuff headstomp if you fire it off late, but if it's a devil's reverse, he may be able to tag you before you can recover. Also, after a blocked point blank EX Psycho Crusher, you can forward dash (once he passes through) and you're in range for a free counter. I had trouble landing karakusa from a point blank EX PC, but I'm fairly certain kara kara will land. If not, you get a st.mk->mp hayate, cr.fp, or, my personal preference, f.fp target combo (450 stun, god damn). If you have super+ultra, EX scissors is asking for a fist in the dick, and even if you don't, you can punish with st.mp->mp hayate (or cr.lp -> lp hayate for reliability). This makes him have to seriously consider every one of his reversal options, which is always good for Mak.

    -Fucking block. Don't try to stop his cr.lk, don't try to punish scissors unless it's EX, don't jump when you're in roundhouse range, just block and wait for them to get impatient and try a throw, jump, or headstomp. As Makoto, you've got the tools to deal with all these things. This may be a fight where you simply let the enemy come to you.

    -U2 is crazy quick, and if their reaction speed is even moderate, they can fire it off after a whiffed karakusa (that whiff animation is murder). Even if they're not fast enough to land it on reaction, you're still placed in that goofy crossup situation. Be judicious with karakusa.

    -Option selecting st.mp/st.mk -> mp hayate is a boon in this matchup. Bison likes to throw out pokes ; tagging one, dealing solid damage/stun, and instantly closing the distance is not only effecting but feels damn good.

    General Strat:

    Example Videos:
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • Arcane ArcaneArcane Arcane 5★ Joined: Posts: 673
    thanks for the advice. I'm probably going to just wait a good month or so (after the game is released) before I do any permanent write-ups. Just so we have some sort of solid info on each character.

    I hope you are dedicated man, because there will be a lot of information going through her for the first many months.... ALOT.
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543

    General Strat:

    - At long range against Ryu, Makoto can hop over fireballs with lk-tsurugi for equal meter gain.

    Things i've noticed RH TK tsurugi punishes all fireballs if done on reaction except sonic boom.
    Its mad awesome. Use and abuse.

    Ryu his dp is trash now so a well spaced RH tsurugi on wake-up will beat srk or trade very much in your favor.
    watch for random hurricanes if he's close

    cr.RH stuffs hurricanes clean
    basically want to creep just out of his poking range, and wait it out....if he fireballs, jump in and land a
    nice combo.

    if you block a sweep from close range, sweep him back or s.MP->MP hayate (or just ultra)...f.FP SHOULD
    punish...it's fast enough (-14 on block, f.FP is 13 frames) but couldn't get it to hit from max range in training,
    he'd just block

    I had a lot of success with just shutting ryu's down by just.....standing there and jumping at his jumps with
    j.FP till he got to the corner and then using neutral j.FP

    Example Videos:

    V-Ryu vs. Daigo
    :
    Found out last nite that s.mp beats Tiger Knee clean (even EX version)

    Against Sagat, pick U2 and sit back a bit and build meter/ultra by absorbing and dodging fireballs with
    Axe kicks. If he's retarded, you'll get a free U2. If he's not retarded, you'll get him to come at you
    and you can have a much more even match. Sadly, I've landed 3 U2 in a single round because one
    Sagat was really... really not that bright. Also remember to use forward IA axe kicks. Any wake up
    SRK from Sagat and you get a free punish, otherwise he'll be in block/hit stun from your axe kick, so
    work on it from there.



    I've been able to use EX-Karakusa after blocked Tanden Engine to fuck with his mixup a little bit. If he goes
    into bnb, it'll grab him. This'll force him to try and follow blocked Tanden Engine with his SPD more often, at
    which point I was able to catch him with an Abare. Also, I've been able to beat Seth's neutral jump fierce with
    EX Fukiage and HP Fukiage. HP Fukiage often trades, though. Depending on the spacing and if he is
    launched high enough, you can land Abare after you land Fukiage. Also, I was able to punish blocked HP
    Shoryuken with Abare. What I'm using to get inside on many good zoning characters is EX Hayate as an
    anti-air. I try to get maybe 2/3 or half-screen away and wait for them to jump up or jump back, and I can
    usually catch them on the way down. Even with a trade in that situation, at least you've scored a knockdown
    and can move in. I recall being able to safely attempt trades with Dhalsims jumping fierce with Makoto's
    standing MK, but I forget if that was working with Seth or not. It's not that bad, but based solely on a few
    hours of Makoto v Seth matches I'd say it's still maybe 6-4 Seth.

    Things i've noticed RH TK tsurugi punishes all fireballs if done on reaction except sonic boom. Its mad
    awesome. Use and abuse.




    General Strat:
    after and Hayate combo, i dont give fuck, i just jump back FP, not even backdash. Im not staying LoL.
    I'll risk a neutral jump axkick sometimes vs THawk but im not risking anything else.
    Condor dive blocked = MpHayate and GTFO, if a can read the jump, i'll meet em up there with j.FP, before
    they do anything. They're getting in range, i Target Combo2 to keep em in check, it beats their FAs and
    safe on block.

    Same strats apply to him as everyone else. Standing mp. You may want to step back a bit and stick with
    standing mk as your primary poke, so you don't get limb grabbed. In situations where they like to 360, go
    for the IA tsurugi for good damage. Also, you get some nasty combos on Hawk, do to his ridiculous size.

    Mpx3 xx MP or EX Hayate
    Fierce feint MPx2 xx MP or EX Hayate
    EX Hayate in the corner, lp Fukiage, EX Tsurugi

    Standing MP beats his Hawk dives, so long as he's not doing them on your wake up. After a blocked dive
    (incase you, for whatever reason weren't ready to spam MP... shame on you), you can hit him with f+fp. If
    you block a cross up dive, you can hit him with mp xx hayate or whatever beefy combo, since he lands closer
    to you.

    Punch the shit out of condor spire. If they like to 360 after it, IA Tsurugi it. That should make them want to
    start DPing you, in which case you can block (or maybe focus?) and punish accordingly.

    Aside from the massive damage he can do, dive cross up shenanigans, and the fact that he has about
    200 more life than you, it's not a terrible match. In my book, a character that does more damage and has
    more life than you can't be called even, but I think this match is most certainly winnable to a decent degree...
    if that makes sense...

    Example Videos:

    General Strat:


    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • NinjaCWNinjaCW Joined: Posts: 486
    If you ever need help just PM me and I'll help out.
  • N4rKN4rK Joined: Posts: 33
    I hope you are dedicated man, because there will be a lot of information going through her for the first many months.... ALOT.

    This

    This thread is gunna be great once the ball gets rolling, i hope it doesn't turn into a cluster fuck XD
    If ya ever need a hand let me know XD
    Your Friendly Neighborhood Makoto
  • The MullahThe Mullah lk kara throw repeat Joined: Posts: 2,666
    I hope you are dedicated man, because there will be a lot of information going through her for the first many months.... ALOT.

    if other character threads are anything to go by you can discount 99% of peoples advice. In time a very select few will experience real tournament success and accumilate actual matchup knowledge to share, everyone else will just be spouting g1 level BS.

    Its not that its a waste of time; although matchup advice changes over time, day 1 matchup advice (which is obviously going to be crap in 6 months) is valid on day 1 if given by a top player. You just have to know who to trust before committing it to the first post, otherwise you'll be posting up bogus info and sending people down the road to poor play. it happened in the blanka thread for about 6 months, theres about 3 people who know how to play blanka and post on the forum, almost everyone else used to post up rubbish that probably worked on crap players but was either wrong or only good for xbl.
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    =) Thanks man. Oh, and I caught this in the main makoto thread. Figured I'd use it to get some sort of discussion here.

    I was actually thinking about this, especially when she's facing against chars like Rog, Abel, Gief, etc. Me personally, I'd rather block and punish shit than rush shit down for the whole entire match. However, since this is Makoto, I'm going to be Captain Obvious here and say your going to have to get your shit off first when facing rush-down characters.

    This was probably mentioned in the main thread as well, but I find Gief (and Hawk) /Makoto being one of the more interesting matchups in the game. Both know that we have a command grab that leads into a lot of damage and we don't want to get hit by either of them, but we want to set up the other player up into landing into our grab. In addition, since we already know they are afraid of landing into it, we can probably punish alot of their attempts to get away. So there's going to be a whole lot of mindgames / grappler footies at work here. It's going to be who can get the other player scared first and keep the momentum going.

    Oh and Seth is most likely going to be the worst matchup ever, since he can both rushdown and runaway pretty easily. I'm calling 4-6 or 3-7 in his favor. LOL. Thoughts on this?
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • AntihippyAntihippy Joined: Posts: 720
    Nah.

    EX hayate shouldn't make it too bad.

    edit: abare could be really nice for that matchup.
    SSF4- Makoto sub: Ibuki
    Blazblue- main: lambda-11 sub: Hazama
  • Blue LightningBlue Lightning Portuguese Fighter Joined: Posts: 860
    yeah, Abare Tosanami should probably be the Ultra of choice against characters with a fireball, except maybe Guile because it recovers so fast (also, Seth? I have no idea what's the recovery on his SB). The fact that you can ultra punish a fireball from any range should give them doubts about throwing one and give you more options and breathing room to approach them, in my opinion.
    SF5: Raaashiiiidoooooooo; Tier-whore: Chun-li
    UMvC3: Main: Nova/Doctor Doom/Amaterasu; Former Team: Nova/Frank West/Amaterasu; Casual/Dream Team: Magneto/Dante/Frank and Doctor Doom/Dante/Frank
    PSN ID: BLightning91
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,278
    Seth won't be bad he can't boom into ultra for free any more so he's seriously fucked!
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • AntihippyAntihippy Joined: Posts: 720
    yeah, Abare Tosanami should probably be the Ultra of choice against characters with a fireball, except maybe Guile because it recovers so fast (also, Seth? I have no idea what's the recovery on his SB). The fact that you can ultra punish a fireball from any range should give them doubts about throwing one and give you more options and breathing room to approach them, in my opinion.

    Didn't sharin say that you can abare sonic booms on reaction? Maybe.
    SSF4- Makoto sub: Ibuki
    Blazblue- main: lambda-11 sub: Hazama
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    ^^ yeah he did, but his reaction time must be off the charts then. Shit's supposed to come out really fast.
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • AntihippyAntihippy Joined: Posts: 720
    Nah, his fireball is easy to react to seeing that it's slow, it's just that he recovers so fast. Which is why I'm skeptical.
    SSF4- Makoto sub: Ibuki
    Blazblue- main: lambda-11 sub: Hazama
  • The MullahThe Mullah lk kara throw repeat Joined: Posts: 2,666
    nobody is U2'ing a jab sonic boom on reaction. i hope sharin tests her IA tsurigi vs guiles cr.hp.
  • SF_crazySF_crazy Acquiring bike money Joined: Posts: 125
    Mullah this is Seth's boom they are talking about (i think). Seth's boom is incredibly slow.
  • ShawnMcCoolShawnMcCool Punch Justice Joined: Posts: 1,535 mod
    Also, you usually have a good idea when guile is going to sonic boom if he's doing them consistently. You can buffer the ultra motion and activate on reaction. I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility.
    Fret not over victory nor defeat, but be as serene as the water.
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    Also, you usually have a good idea when guile is going to sonic boom if he's doing them consistently. You can buffer the ultra motion and activate on reaction. I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility.

    true but if anything, that'll be on some clutch shit. Not to discount your post, but while it does sound possible, anyone doing Ultras to counter any SBs on reaction wont happen too often, especially with Guile. Dunno with Seth, however. It could work.

    Now with other fireball chars, U2 looks like its the Ultra of choice, unless u feel as if u can go in and maximize your close-range damage.

    EDIT
    Oh and something tells me the Viper matchup is going to be in her [Viper] favor. With Makoto's lack of a wake up game, Viper's gunna have a field day with the mixups and making Makoto guess everytime she's knocked down. But it sounds win-able. Not to the point where Makoto has to work SUPER hard (like Vega), but where she has to go that extra mile to keep the momentum on her side.
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • AntihippyAntihippy Joined: Posts: 720
    Characters with a good wakeup game also struggles with viper shenanigans.
    SSF4- Makoto sub: Ibuki
    Blazblue- main: lambda-11 sub: Hazama
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    Characters with a good wakeup game also struggles with viper shenanigans.

    Doesn't that go without saying? That's why I wanted to start talking about that matchup and what you guys think Makoto can do to deal with it or keep herself out of those situations.

    And yeah, Viper shenanigans are too dope.
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • BIGtoneBIGtone Guren Senpukyaku Joined: Posts: 160
    Lp Fukiage is really fast, it seems, so that may very well help with her jumping madness "I BOURN YU ALL DAHY" shenanigans

    depends on hit box (of course)
    colorful bra = kinky
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    Fukiage looks like it can hit right in the middle of Viper as she's in the air (RIGHT IN THE VAG!!!), but like u said, there could be a hitbox issue there. I wonder if Mak's cr. strong can go under Viper's burn kicks or something. I remember a few characters being able to do that in vanilla.
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • ShawnMcCoolShawnMcCool Punch Justice Joined: Posts: 1,535 mod
    true but if anything, that'll be on some clutch shit. Not to discount your post

    Dude, i'm just brainstorming =)

    I've seen fukiage trade a lot when used as anti air.
    Wake up dash under crossup may not be so bad in some circumstances.
    Fret not over victory nor defeat, but be as serene as the water.
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    I know Chun can do that. so with Makoto's dash speed, dashing under wakeup crossups sounds good. However, I heard if you backdash against Gief and he has U2, he can hit u with it. since you're considered airborn during a backdash.

    I saw a video floating around with someone testing this out. I should have favorited it. =/
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • Wednesday's DaggerWednesday's Dagger Grab & Choke! Joined: Posts: 199
    I recognize the effort in this thread by the OP and the comments made, but I have much information on matchups taken from the streams & videos which I watched.

    I played Makoto only a tad bit in 3S but I plan to main her and her only in Super (previously Abel main, who'll now be an alt).

    Point being that I would like to start a new match-up thread, so I can post the (fair amount of) information I gathered so far. And of course, I'd be updating it at least every other day when need be, as well as adding my own notes.

    Hope this is okay.
    SSF4: Cody, Guy

    Your tears of regret cannot turn back the hands of time.
  • -Ladon--Ladon- Now I'm Lost Joined: Posts: 149
    I recognize the effort in this thread by the OP and the comments made, but I have much information on matchups taken from the streams & videos which I watched.

    I played Makoto only a tad bit in 3S but I plan to main her and her only in Super (previously Abel main, who'll now be an alt).

    Point being that I would like to start a new match-up thread, so I can post the (fair amount of) information I gathered so far. And of course, I'd be updating it at least every other day when need be, as well as adding my own notes.

    Hope this is okay.

    Let's not post matchup -ideas- but solid facts about the matchups, which we won't know until super is out there for a while, making assumptions on certain matchups when people haven't even developed the character is a silly way to go about things
    Push your luck if it makes you a promise
    That turns con men honest.
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    I recognize the effort in this thread by the OP and the comments made, but I have much information on matchups taken from the streams & videos which I watched.

    I played Makoto only a tad bit in 3S but I plan to main her and her only in Super (previously Abel main, who'll now be an alt).

    Point being that I would like to start a new match-up thread, so I can post the (fair amount of) information I gathered so far. And of course, I'd be updating it at least every other day when need be, as well as adding my own notes.

    Hope this is okay.

    Like the guy above my post said, we wouldn't really want to put up any matchup stuff until the game has been officially released. However, if you do feel that your info is legit and can be supported come April 27th, then by all means post it up here.

    But I will say this. What sense will it make creating a BRAND new matchup thread when there's nothing inside this one?
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    Hate double post
    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • Bill307Bill307 Joined: Posts: 548
    Random info:
    - Makoto can block and punish Cammy's DP with dash-in karakusa s.mp s.mp s.mp xx mp-hayate (250 dmg, 402 stun (506 w/ EX)).
    - Depending on the spacing, Cammy can potentially punish a blocked (non-EX) hayate with a max-range cr.lp into a combo (probably a short one).
    - At long range against Ryu, Makoto can hop over fireballs with lk-tsurugi for equal metre gain.
  • zafo999zafo999 BIDEO JAMES Joined: Posts: 166
    On Makoto vs Seth: I've been able to use EX-Karakusa after blocked Tanden Engine to fuck with his mixup a little bit. If he goes into bnb, it'll grab him. This'll force him to try and follow blocked Tanden Engine with his SPD more often, at which point I was able to catch him with an Abare. Also, I've been able to beat Seth's neutral jump fierce with EX Fukiage and HP Fukiage. HP Fukiage often trades, though. Depending on the spacing and if he is launched high enough, you can land Abare after you land Fukiage. Also, I was able to punish blocked HP Shoryuken with Abare. What I'm using to get inside on many good zoning characters is EX Hayate as an anti-air. I try to get maybe 2/3 or half-screen away and wait for them to jump up or jump back, and I can usually catch them on the way down. Even with a trade in that situation, at least you've scored a knockdown and can move in. I recall being able to safely attempt trades with Dhalsims jumping fierce with Makoto's standing MK, but I forget if that was working with Seth or not. It's not that bad, but based solely on a few hours of Makoto v Seth matches I'd say it's still maybe 6-4 Seth.

    I'm actually having a much harder time with grapplers or anyone with a command grab. The range on karakusa is pretty disappointing and usually when I try to set one up, it'll end up losing to an Oicho, or an SPD, or whatever Hakan's 360 is.. or even just a normal throw. Maybe it's just me adjusting to SF4, but does anybody else feel like karakusa was way easier to land in 3S?
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,278
    Things i've noticed RH TK tsurugi punishes all fireballs if done on reaction except sonic boom. Its mad awesome. Use and abuse.

    Next against most of the cast after FP karakusa if they hold straight back they can walk out of it. You have to train them with cr. LK and kara normal throw to want to because if they don't crouch tech your st. MP and cr. LK will eat them.

    Honestly Gief doesn't seem to terrible after a long play session because RH tsurugi stuffs Lariat if done at a good spacing, that with his slow focus attack means you can force him to use cr. mp for anti-air. your pokes are just as good as his and make sure to punish his jumps and use fp, st. MP, and cr. Mk for anti-air rarely is fukiage a good idea for anti-air. You sometimes can get a tk MK tsurugi for anti-air into ex hayate if your quick.

    Gouken, well he punishes karakusa hard so using it really has to be trained into them. Also as awesome as st. MP is you got to cool it down your going to eat counter. Honestly I was losing hard till I started really abusing my kara normal grab to train him as he can't nuetral jump punish that and when I baited a nuetral jump I was able to get an EX fukiage after the fp hayate. Don't do it after MP or lp as your to far away and his nj. fp will eat you.

    Ryu his dp is trash now so a well spaced RH tsurugi on wake-up will beat srk or trade very much in your favor. Sagat seems kinda rough but shutting down his fireball game lets you use your superior pokes and now that tiger knee tickles its not as much of a concern.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • AzuroAzuro C L E B O Y Z Joined: Posts: 1,132
    Anyone got anything interesting for Mak vs Bison? Watching the Spooky stream, and Sanford and Chris couldn't figure out how to crack Bison with her (Granted, it was Jeron playing).

    So far, that match doesn't look good at all. They were having major troubles getting in on Bison. Any tidbits?
    www.testyourmight.com
  • Wednesday's DaggerWednesday's Dagger Grab & Choke! Joined: Posts: 199
    Like the guy above my post said, we wouldn't really want to put up any matchup stuff until the game has been officially released. However, if you do feel that your info is legit and can be supported come April 27th, then by all means post it up here.

    But I will say this. What sense will it make creating a BRAND new matchup thread when there's nothing inside this one?
    Pretty much most likely be more active. I'm always surfing Mak threads on my phone, so I'll pretty much be able to edit immediately, and I'll be playing only her of course, so I'll have much to contribute myself making it for convenient for me to.

    That's pretty much it.
    SSF4: Cody, Guy

    Your tears of regret cannot turn back the hands of time.
  • Boom CubeBoom Cube Joined: Posts: 420
    Anyone got anything interesting for Mak vs Bison? Watching the Spooky stream, and Sanford and Chris couldn't figure out how to crack Bison with her (Granted, it was Jeron playing).

    So far, that match doesn't look good at all. They were having major troubles getting in on Bison. Any tidbits?

    -You can beat any of his headstomps clean with fukiage, including EX. This requires quick reactions; it will still stuff headstomp if you fire it off late, but if it's a devil's reverse, he may be able to tag you before you can recover. Also, after a blocked point blank EX Psycho Crusher, you can forward dash (once he passes through) and you're in range for a free counter. I had trouble landing karakusa from a point blank EX PC, but I'm fairly certain kara kara will land. If not, you get a st.mk->mp hayate, cr.fp, or, my personal preference, f.fp target combo (450 stun, god damn). If you have super+ultra, EX scissors is asking for a fist in the dick, and even if you don't, you can punish with st.mp->mp hayate (or cr.lp -> lp hayate for reliability). This makes him have to seriously consider every one of his reversal options, which is always good for Mak.

    -Fucking block. Don't try to stop his cr.lk, don't try to punish scissors unless it's EX, don't jump when you're in roundhouse range, just block and wait for them to get impatient and try a throw, jump, or headstomp. As Makoto, you've got the tools to deal with all these things. This may be a fight where you simply let the enemy come to you.

    -U2 is crazy quick, and if their reaction speed is even moderate, they can fire it off after a whiffed karakusa (that whiff animation is murder). Even if they're not fast enough to land it on reaction, you're still placed in that goofy crossup situation. Be judicious with karakusa.

    -Option selecting st.mp/st.mk -> mp hayate is a boon in this matchup. Bison likes to throw out pokes ; tagging one, dealing solid damage/stun, and instantly closing the distance is not only effecting but feels damn good.
  • Hiryu02Hiryu02 Respetar la Máscara Joined: Posts: 2,124
    Sup BoomCube, TN rep!

    Anyway, I got some more Makoto time in tonight and I wanted to share a bit of a general strat I had some success with.

    Basically, I play aggressively with plenty of blockstring cr lp, cr lp, f+mp to get my opponent blocking, then I mix in a cr mp xx oroshi.
    Once Oroshi hits I mixup:

    f+hk, this catches players who are caught off guard by the oroshi overhead and reactively try to block high

    f+mk, Karakusa xx anything

    f+hk feint, Karakusa xx anything

    dash in, st mp xx oroshi repeat above

    Plus a few more variations on this theme. This works best against non-shoto characters, and any time your opponent starts to get defensive. A few reps of this tends to frazzle their nerves and leads to mistakes made. Oroshi's hitstun is so good you can almost always dash up or command normal forward and either apply pressure, or go for mixups.
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathamatically no where near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
  • Boom CubeBoom Cube Joined: Posts: 420
    TN rep!

    Hiryu reminded me of one other thing:



    At about 0:35, you can see st.lp -> st.mp->etc. comboing after oroshi. At first, I thought this might be a great new combo/hit confirm into super->ultra for her, but after trying it out in a couple matches (couldn't get a shot at training mode, I don't actually have the game), it looks like it's character specific. I manage to land it on Cody (crouching, of course), but not on Juri, and they were the only two characters I played against. Just something else to try out once everyone gets some time in the grid room.
  • Mr. Basara!!Mr. Basara!! Satsui no Flowchart! Joined: Posts: 783
    Standing and crouching strong own Viper's burning kicks. I don't recommend trying to EX Karakusa them, since the grab won't catch up if she crosses up.
    It's like saying "Coke should make green cans. Mountain Dew has green cans, I don't see why Coke has to be this underpowered in can color." -Kich
  • Devil-TriggerDevil-Trigger loading............. Joined: Posts: 239
    vs some Mak thoughts after 2 days

    vs Guile
    -double sweep = block the first and FA the second or jab/short or ex karakusa(if close enough)
    - for AA, standing fucking LOL mid Punch, MP fugaki(if u see it coming), cr. HK and st. MK on a distance, Ultra1 and Abare aka Ultra2(learn the angle)
    dunno too much about this match up yet, its tough as hell, Guile recovers from Sonic boom really fast, if you jump in on action he'll have enough time to cr.FP you. And Flash Kick can catch you backdashing. Super Guile can build walls better than before.

    vs Viper
    - if Viper is flighing your way, Mp Fugaki gets right up her ass.
    - st. MP again is pretty danm good poke/stuff/AA in the fight
    - i try not to karakusa too much, that woman punishes hard, i dunno how to do it effectively yet. Very fun fight:D

    vs Blanka
    - fuck that guy
    - so far only EX hayate punish blocked Ball
    dunno nuff yet, but fuck that guy

    vs Zangief- cr. HK is a slod AA, and beats lariet
    - block lariat(first 2 hits) and sweep and st. MP
    - target Combo 2 safe on Block(?)

    THawk
    - mp hayate blocked Condor Dives(dunno if u can dash in)
    - post-Hayate Tomahawks(srk), you will see alot of them
    - either he's jump-in or his jumping to Codor Dive, i hate this now, so just j.FP him in mid air

    vs Deejay
    - st. MP again, LOL and AA of the year, what a weird hitbox
    Dunno much here.

    vs Balrog- wow, i dunno if i was out of distance(i swear i was'nt) but Rog cr jabbed me out of EX karakusa...
    - AA = Ultra1, st MP, st MK
    - st MP today was stuffing ever Dash punch. but watchout of EX
    jab ruined my life, jump in is dangerous, his cr. HP is insane.

    vs Dic
    - Go go hurry get in offense before he does
    at the time, i did'nt test st MP much. it was hell pretty much when he was putting his scisor kick pressure on, no idea what to do yet.

    vs Cody
    - ax kick beats/trades aolt of his AAs, and he has a few of em
    - RuffKicks are not safe, block and do your thing
    so far he's trouble for me cuz of jab jab jab jab -> something!!, and "BINGO!" punch is so fuckin good

    vs Ryu(he's still a freakin demi-god).
    - ax kick is pretty important for moving in
    - st MP:lol

    Mak is also very susceptable to Focus Attacks, target combo 2 and fw. FP(tripple Punch) helps, but watchout for Guy FA, it can beat/trade both options
    so far my horrible match-ups: Chun, Balrog, Guile, Dic, Sagat

    edit: updated
    SF3: 3rd Strike - Makoto, Elena, Hugo
    Super Street Fighter IV - Makoto, Gouken
    MK9 - Nightwolf, Jade
    KoF13 - Shen Woo, Mai, unknown
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  • CanadianDstryrCanadianDstryr The Mundane Cinderella Joined: Posts: 2,071
    How are you guys getting in with her? I've tried a couple different things, but it feels like I'm getting stuffed way more than I should.
  • Boom CubeBoom Cube Joined: Posts: 420
    Few more notes from some games I got today.

    Blanka
    -st.mp is ballin' all day, every day, no problem. Stuffs horizontal ball clean, stuffs electricity from the right spacing.

    Bison
    -I had some good fortune getting within his st.rh/st.mk range, focusing, and letting it go once I saw an attack. Mak's focus is quick enough to catch him on the backswing, and even if it doesn't crumple, you're now inside. You've got about .2 seconds to formulate a plan once you see it happen, though, so think fast. Also, don't be too predictable with it, scissors and crusher will plow right through you.
  • Roy0Roy0 Team NAH Joined: Posts: 543
    hey guys, i just got the game last night and I finally got some online matches going. My Mak is still scrubby as hell.

    Member Of Rutgers' Underground Gaming Society: Knight Slash 4! Spring 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JustBlockStupid
  • NinjaCWNinjaCW Joined: Posts: 486
    Found out last nite that s.mp beats Tiger Knee clean (even EX version). . .in vanilla was anyone else able to do that?
  • ShinobiBrownShinobiBrown Joined: Posts: 583
    I personally want to say it's in Abel's favor but I too have barely any experience in this match up (nor have I played this game nearly enough) so I'm really in no place to judge. However, considering that, I'll give a bit of my opinion on the little I did play of Makoto vs Abel anyway because I'm bored.

    From what I've played in comparison to what I saw in your vid, you need to whore out Makoto's normals much much more than you did in that video. s.MP, c.MP, and c.MK are your friends here. Also, going for Karakusa really isn't worth it until you've really trained the opponent to block, and even then Abel's Tornado throw shits on your Karakusa as it has faster start up and more priority. So it's really better to bait shit and punish with it. I'd go as far as to say play the bait and punish game against him for the majority of the match. Getting greedy with Karakusa is going to get you killed fast. If you see him rolling close to you, grab him out of it with back throw for knockdown. As far as dealing with knockdown, focus and dashing out seems viable for dealing with his cross-up. As far as Ultra selection, I used U1. However, I'd imagine U2 would be much better for punishing whiffed TTs.

    PS: Breathless makes me go WTF with everything it has (cancelable, super armor, unblockable since it's a grab, delay-able, really nice travel distance). It sounds too fucking good on paper. There has to be a legit answer to it outside of point blank range (in which you'd just mash out your Ultra).

    @NinjaCW: By beat clean you mean regardless of spacing? Or with specific spacing?
  • rattlejawrattlejaw Whiffing Karakusa. Joined: Posts: 196
    PS: Breathless makes me go WTF with everything it has (cancelable, super armor, unblockable since it's a grab, delay-able, really nice travel distance). It sounds too fucking good on paper. There has to be a legit answer to it outside of point blank range (in which you'd just mash out your Ultra).

    I've seen some people jump over Abel when they see him get stanced up. I don't know how fast his Ultra cancellation is, so it may be that Abel has time enough to get out of it and anti-air a forward jump in some way. I haven't seen anything actually beat Breathless. Getting away from it seems to be all you can hope for.
    SSF4: self-hating Makoto; Claw
  • NinjaCWNinjaCW Joined: Posts: 486
    I personally want to say it's in Abel's favor but I too have barely any experience in this match up (nor have I played this game nearly enough) so I'm really in no place to judge. However, considering that, I'll give a bit of my opinion on the little I did play of Makoto vs Abel anyway because I'm bored.

    From what I've played in comparison to what I saw in your vid, you need to whore out Makoto's normals much much more than you did in that video. s.MP, c.MP, and c.MK are your friends here. Also, going for Karakusa really isn't worth it until you've really trained the opponent to block, and even then Abel's Tornado throw shits on your Karakusa as it has faster start up and more priority. So it's really better to bait shit and punish with it. I'd go as far as to say play the bait and punish game against him for the majority of the match. Getting greedy with Karakusa is going to get you killed fast. If you see him rolling close to you, grab him out of it with back throw for knockdown. As far as dealing with knockdown, focus and dashing out seems viable for dealing with his cross-up. As far as Ultra selection, I used U1. However, I'd imagine U2 would be much better for punishing whiffed TTs.

    PS: Breathless makes me go WTF with everything it has (cancelable, super armor, unblockable since it's a grab, delay-able, really nice travel distance). It sounds too fucking good on paper. There has to be a legit answer to it outside of point blank range (in which you'd just mash out your Ultra).

    @NinjaCW: By beat clean you mean regardless of spacing? Or with specific spacing?

    Once I did it when he tried to kara tiger knee me, point blank range, and right in standing forward range. I kept trying and it was just beating him at neutral quite a bit no matter the distance. The few times it didn't beat it we just traded.
  • Wonder_ChefWonder_Chef Chomp Chomp Hiss Joined: Posts: 1,651
    Ah, am I the only one here who's feeling Makoto to be very low tier?

    She's lacking a LOT of tools, especially for getting out of pressure.
    "Characters like Cammy and Sakura aren't that threatening after knockdown." - Wasted
    "In ST, you can zone for almost an entire minute without the other character ever approaching you." - m2Dave
  • AntihippyAntihippy Joined: Posts: 720
    No she isn't.

    Also, seriously, getting out of pressure will be a problem for her, but you act as if she's seriously lacking in comparison to other characters. EX oroshi is going to be good enough for her. Hell, I can think of characters with worse options than that.

    The only tool lacking at the moment imo is a tool to punish backdash reliably without much risk. We haven't even tested out all of her options yet.
    SSF4- Makoto sub: Ibuki
    Blazblue- main: lambda-11 sub: Hazama
  • TheliTheli Joined: Posts: 1,586
    Her "get out of pressure tools" are backdash, block+crouch tech, EX oroshi, and EX karakusa.

    Make people fear the EX karakusa. Then you may not even have to use it too much.

    People don't know to fear makoto yet. That won't last too long if you play a good game.

    “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”

  • Mr. Basara!!Mr. Basara!! Satsui no Flowchart! Joined: Posts: 783
    Ah, am I the only one here who's feeling Makoto to be very low tier?

    She's lacking a LOT of tools, especially for getting out of pressure.

    It's just you. Suck less. Practice more. You'll get there eventually.

    She takes a lot of work. I hate how people are claiming that she sucks, meanwhile, all they're doing is getting their Hayates blocked and whiffing karakusas.

    Seriously, take that shit to training mode. I played Makoto in training mode for an hour before even doing my first matches with her. Then, everyday since I got the game, I've put in AT LEAST 2 hours of Makoto training (Hayate feints, karas, IA tsurugis).

    There's a lot to learn. I think most people's problem is that they're trying to be in their opponent's face like in 3s. Honestly, I think Makoto works best right at the edge of c.mp's range.

    If you walk forward a little bit, you can hit with a c.mp. If they do ANYTHING, you can stuff it with a standing MP. If you get ballsy and see them retreating, you can f+FP. Once they realize that everything you do is tagging them, they'll block. That's when you can Kara kara and start shit.

    I love your av, btw.
    It's like saying "Coke should make green cans. Mountain Dew has green cans, I don't see why Coke has to be this underpowered in can color." -Kich
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