What REALLY makes Akuma Broke?

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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    I'll challenge anyone to use Akuma against me, and you will see that Akuma is not that special
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,203
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    I'll challenge anyone to use Akuma against me, and you will see that Akuma is not that special

    I'm not a shoto user but I have played you... I don't think that's a challenge you should issue.

    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    studtrooper, ready?
  • 7 5 07 5 0 Joined: Posts: 469
    Could you pass the joint you're smoking?
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,203
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    studtrooper, ready?

    I wasn't saying I would play akuma against you, only that a good shoto player who knows why ST Akuma is beyond broken would humble you. I'm not saying this to hurt feelings or whatever. I just don't think you know the extent of how much better akuma is against the rest of the cast.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    Gouki is essentially a CE Ryu/Ken with air Hadouken
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,203
    edited April 2015
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    Gouki is essentially a CE Ryu/Ken with air Hadouken

    :/ Akuma has all the advantages of O.Ryu (including 50/50 unblockable jump tatsu), juggle-able tatsu, air fireball, red fireball that can trap virtually the entire cast in the corner with no possibility of escape, can't be dizzied, boss-level combo ability and hit-box advantages, and a teleport. What aren't you seeing about this?
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • Missing PersonMissing Person Quickly becoming the Sailor Moon S guy. Joined: Posts: 13,882
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    Gouki is essentially a CE Ryu/Ken with air Hadouken

    :/ Akuma has all the advantages of O.Ryu (including 50/50 unblockable jump tatsu), juggle-able tatsu, air fireball, red fireball that can trap virtually the entire cast in the corner with no possibility of escape, can't be dizzied, boss-level combo ability and hit-box advantages, and a teleport. What aren't you seeing about this?

    The screen.
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    Let's revisit...

    After 21 years of ST (I know, ST is now legal)...

    Gouki has dropped in the ranks due to the fact that people have learned how to avoid the airfireball, corner traps, and other things. Hell, people have even learned the matchups VS Gouki so good that they even are taking advantage of his poor health/no super. That instant recovery dizzy aint shit either.

  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,479
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    Let's revisit...

    After 21 years of ST (I know, ST is now legal)...

    Gouki has dropped in the ranks due to the fact that people have learned how to avoid the airfireball, corner traps, and other things. Hell, people have even learned the matchups VS Gouki so good that they even are taking advantage of his poor health/no super. That instant recovery dizzy aint shit either.
    Nope.
  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,609
    I recently heard that old Sagat is soft banned as well in ST tournaments in Japan?
    Is that true?
    Add me for some Tekken 7 if you're from Europe.
    I'm not playing anything else these days:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/NaughtySenpai/
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    I recently heard that old Sagat is soft banned as well in ST tournaments in Japan?
    Is that true?

    yes
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,669
    I recently heard that old Sagat is soft banned as well in ST tournaments in Japan?
    Is that true?

    The Japanese don't really like playing O.chars because they need a code to pick and whatnot, though that's loosened up a good bit in recent years. Many still don't pick O.Gat because he's considered boring.

    But you do see O.chars get picked in tournaments - Yakitori often runs O.Hawk, and PECO usually runs O.chars too. If memory serves, Kurahashi's said that he picks O.Ken against Claw because "Claw is broken so I need a cheap character too".
    Steam/Fightcade:Coffeeling
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  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,479
    edited November 2015
    David Sirlin wrote on this topic in his book:
    Many versions of Street Fighter have "secret characters" that are only accessible through a code. Sometimes these characters are good; sometimes they're not. Occasionally, the secret characters are the best in the game as in the game Marvel vs. Capcom 1. Big deal. That's the way that game is. Live with it. But Super Turbo was the first version of Street Fighter to ever have a secret character: the untouchably good Akuma. Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don't mean it's a tough match--I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is "broken" in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn't designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since. I believe this was the correct decision.

    Japan, however, does not officially ban Akuma from tournaments! They have what is called a "soft ban." This is a tacit understanding amongst all top players that Akuma is too good to be played, and that he destroys an otherwise beautiful game, so they unofficially agree not to play him. There are always a very small number of people who do play him in tournaments, but never the top players. Usually a few poor players try their hand at the god-character and lose, which is utterly humiliating and crowd-pleasing. This is an interesting alternate take on the "hard ban" we have in America.

    That's all well and good, but Japan has also shown signs of a soft-ban on another character in Super Turbo. I bring up this example because it lives on the threshold. It is just on the edge of what is reasonable to ban because it is "too good." Anything less than this would not be reasonable, so perhaps others can use it as a benchmark to decide what is reasonable in their games.

    The character in question is the mysteriously named "Old Sagat." Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he's not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma's air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn't count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn't even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don't know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

    But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan--a soft ban--on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more "gameplay." Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

    If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don't have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can't beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.
    Dunno how accurate this is, or whether this information still is correct to this day. Still, it's clear O.Gat's not really softbanned for his power level alone.
    Claw is also softbanned iirc.
    Post edited by Naeras on
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    That information is, at best, a skewed version of the truth. Soft ban is a pretty dumb word for it anyways, but I guess Sirlin wanted to sound smart or something.

    Akuma has generally legitimately been banned from tournaments. When he's not banned, they make a note of telling everyone in the tournament that he's allowed, e.g. X-Mania Singles Tournament this past year.

    They don't like O.Sagat. They generally don't like old characters because you have to use a code to pick him, so they consider that cast to be a "secret" and not intended for competitive play like the regularly selected roster. But they really despite the good old characters because of how powerful they are and how simple the strategy and their effectiveness is. This extends to basically old Sagat, shotos, and Hawk. For example, Kurahashi usually only picks Ryu, but if he's fighting a Claw, he'll happily switch to O.Ken because he feels that he needs a cheap character to beat a cheap character.

    There are several players who happily play Claw. They might not like the character, and is a bit frowned upon, but you'll see a lot more Claws than O.Sagat players for sure.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    eltrouble wrote: »
    ...Akuma has generally legitimately been banned from tournaments. When he's not banned, they make a note of telling everyone in the tournament that he's allowed, e.g. X-Mania Singles Tournament this past year...

    News to me...
  • MaxmanMaxman Joined: Posts: 1,824
    eltrouble wrote: »
    That information is, at best, a skewed version of the truth. Soft ban is a pretty dumb word for it anyways, but I guess Sirlin wanted to sound smart or something.

    Akuma has generally legitimately been banned from tournaments. When he's not banned, they make a note of telling everyone in the tournament that he's allowed, e.g. X-Mania Singles Tournament this past year.

    They don't like O.Sagat. They generally don't like old characters because you have to use a code to pick him, so they consider that cast to be a "secret" and not intended for competitive play like the regularly selected roster. But they really despite the good old characters because of how powerful they are and how simple the strategy and their effectiveness is. This extends to basically old Sagat, shotos, and Hawk. For example, Kurahashi usually only picks Ryu, but if he's fighting a Claw, he'll happily switch to O.Ken because he feels that he needs a cheap character to beat a cheap character.

    There are several players who happily play Claw. They might not like the character, and is a bit frowned upon, but you'll see a lot more Claws than O.Sagat players for sure.

    what makes O.Ken good though ? just a legitemate question
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Maxman wrote: »
    what makes O.Ken good though ? just a legitemate question

    Extended range on his low pokes, better priority on all his low kicks, his j.HK is completely invulnerable, has good damage, his zoning skills is top3, fast walk speed, best uppercut in the game, etc...
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,669
    Who'd be better? O.Gat, Sim? He's considered a better zoner than O.Ryu, Ryu, DJ?
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  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,203
    edited November 2015
    eltrouble wrote: »
    Maxman wrote: »
    what makes O.Ken good though ? just a legitemate question

    Extended range on his low pokes, better priority on all his low kicks, his j.HK is completely invulnerable, has good damage, his zoning skills is top3, fast walk speed, best uppercut in the game, etc...

    I thought it was confirmed O.Ken has the same walk speed as N.Ken? Also, j.HK trades frontal vulnerability for bottom vulnerability, which sometimes doesn't work out well against characters with torpedo type moves (mostly Honda and Bison).

    O.Ken:
    OKen_djrh3.png

    N.Ken:
    Ken_djrh3.png
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Komatik wrote: »
    Who'd be better? O.Gat, Sim? He's considered a better zoner than O.Ryu, Ryu, DJ?

    O.Gat has the absolute best zoning in the game. It's often very risk free, and besides having a very low profile, fast startup, and fast recovery on the fireball, he has some good anti-air options as well especially from a distance.

    Sim is a good zoner, but he's definitely not played like O.Gat or Ken when it comes to the zoning game. His fireballs are only effective at a 3/4 or full screen range and relies more on his normals to anti-air at an extended range. Sim's fireball is used more as a setup than just a tool to do pushback.

    O.Ryu also has incredibly good zoning. His red fireball is a pretty solid advantage, but O.Ken just feels more effective because his slow fireball is extremely slow, his fast fireball is pretty fast, both have great recovery, and he has great anti-air options with his fierce uppercut being so fast and covering good range. Plus it's much more difficult to safe jump O.Ken, and sometimes near impossible if they have really good reversal uppercut execution.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I'd say zoning tier is
    1. O.Sagat
    2. Dhalsim
    3. O.Ryu
    4. N.Ryu
    5. O.Ken

    Ryu with bar would jump to rank 2, just below O.Sagat. No-one uses O.Dhalsim now that Shirts is MIA, so I haven't included him. Then we have Guile, Dee Jay, Chun, N.Sagat, and I honestly do not know that order they would be ranked, since each have advantages and disadvantages in different areas.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    I'd say zoning tier is
    1. O.Sagat
    2. Dhalsim
    3. O.Ryu
    4. N.Ryu
    5. O.Ken

    Ryu with bar would jump to rank 2, just below O.Sagat. No-one uses O.Dhalsim now that Shirts is MIA, so I haven't included him. Then we have Guile, Dee Jay, Chun, N.Sagat, and I honestly do not know that order they would be ranked, since each have advantages and disadvantages in different areas.

    I use Old Dhalsim...
  • calil_bfrcalil_bfr Joined: Posts: 47
    edited April 2016
    Fudd wrote: »

    Getting to Bison with no round losses and at least 3 perfects in the horrendously hard Western versions is already a fuckin' hell of a victory.

    Post edited by calil_bfr on
    cidbahamut wrote: »
    Every time I think I'm improving I inevitably end up facing an opponent who thoroughly confirms that that is not the case.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    :)
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    Just found this USF2 clip. Same old ST Akuma. I'm guessing Akuma will be banned:

  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,260
    edited November 18
    Everyone, once I get to Honda's stage, you will see a tutorial on how to beat Akuma without using Akuma

    fightcade://challenge-1848-1510823146.59@ssf2xj
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