The Inevitable Street Fighter V Story Thread: A SHADOW FALLS!

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  • DRWDRW Joined: Posts: 439
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    From CF I just have Vega/Bison and Ryu's profile. Sorry. I'll post Ryu's ASAP.

    Ryu was already posted.

    Lord Vega wrote: »
    Cammy's inhuman part was established since SSF2 according to her Gamest account. There it was said that she could heal a bone fracture in a matter of 3 days...

    This doesn't imply her being artificial. Didn't they also establish that Zangief's "muscles of steel" could literally deflect bullets?

    Lord Vega wrote: »
    Ikeno mentioned in the SFIV/SSFIV that Vega's alternate costume (the one where he is all thrashed) was based off when Vega was defeated by Gouki.

    As long as that costume doesn't actually appear in story mode, this has no meaning since it could be just an homage. For example, Evil Ryu has the hole in his chest that he got in the "Ryu Final" manga, even though this didn't happen in the official canon. So, a costume can only indicate stuff if it appears in the story.

    Lord Vega wrote: »
    After Hawk and Cammy's ending, Vega was SGS before the SF2 final and, severely bruised and in a weakened body, is found by Guile (this is based off in Guile's SSF2X japanese version after Guile defeats Gouki and grabs Vega by his gut, the japanese text his somewhat different), Guile's family appears and tell him to not kill Vega. Vega retreats to his base. Guile, Chun-Li (after destroying Shadoloo... or most of it) and Cammy tracks his location and goes after him with Ryu and Ken (in fact, the trailer portrays it just like the SF Cartoon Code of Honor, where Guile is the leader). Vega escapes and commits suicide (either that or Zangief and Mika have something to do with the explosion). His soul goes to Seth 13 and then to his SF4 body...

    Of course, one can always make up stuff to fit stories together. But do you really think this was the intention of the creators here? Do you really think that they created that trailer with the intention that Bison has just been attacked by Akuma? I find this very unlikely.

    Lord Vega wrote: »
    (while DRW will rush and say that it was Ryu, there's still no official winner declared by Capcom)

    In the new canon, there is no winner, sure. For the old canon (or rather: the very old, pre-Akuma canon), Capcom confirmed that it was Ryu. Shall I present the proof one more time?

    Lord Vega wrote: »
    Thing is... The suicide explosion isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in SFIV and USFIV.

    Akuma attacking Bison isn't mentioned either. So, what does that prove?
  • CestusCestus Sorry for my english :D Joined: Posts: 6,408
    edited April 2016
    YagamiFire wrote: »


    Akuma was designed as a super-boss to eclipse Bison...

    Akuma, because of the games he was prominent in (Alpha) and his lack of pop relevance (thanks Raul Julia & SFII the animated movie), failed to actually eclipse Bison.

    So, where-as before it was logical to have Akuma pulverize Bison to create a Warf effect to hype Akuma, that train has long since left the station and Bison, once again, stands supreme as the bad-ass villain of Street Fighter...so having him be a weak afterthought in comparison to the MUCH less plot & pop relevant Akuma doesn't make sense any longer.

    That's how i see it

    Capcom TRIED to sell Akuma as the new big bad guy, but they quickly realized that ginger demon have nowhere near Bison charisma as main villain... in FGs Geese take the #2 and i've no idea who is the 3rd, but is waaay under them

    I don't know if canon or not, but that's the whole sneak attack thing: they found a way to keep Bison legacy, but don't deny what happened

    If really now they want pretend is'nt happened i don't know why, if anything that part of the story with Akuma suckerpunching him with his strongest technique and still unable to kill him definitively (on contrary he returned stronger) just make sound Bison more badass

    The "undefeated" aura is'nt something that Bison need as character development, as Capcom ever been clear that he still have to reach his full potential
    I designed SFV Ken, your argument is invalid.
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  • Super SonicSuper Sonic Joined: Posts: 1,541
    Fretless94 wrote: »
    I think that part in the tubes might have been a flashback.

    Bison's exact words: "She's going to die... But perhaps some kind of bargain could be made..." I don't think they would leave it up in the air what that bargain is. And that bargain is what happens at the end ie Cammy goes with Bison and Decapre to be further experimented on. I don't think they would just put in the ending what they already showed us in the prologue. That would be such an anti-climactic ending.

    Uh, I think the Bargain Bison spoke of is Cammy giving Decapre to Bison, because she apparently wasn't as perfect of a clone Cammy is and thus she was dying because the experimentation on her wasn't finished by the time Shadaloo releases her in the Prologue when she screams KILL KILL KILL

    How is that a bargain? And why would he say he wants her dead and then a bargain could be made in the same sentence? I mean, it would make sense if Decapre was doing something out of the ordinary to surprise Bison, but she's just lying there. My question still holds, what is the bargain if not Decapre AND Cammy going with Bison as shown in the end?
    Fighting with Conviction Leads to Victory!
  • PVL_93_RUPVL_93_RU When's Dragon Ball? Joined: Posts: 10,843
    Bak, what is the full name of these books and encyclopedias you guys are providing the bios from? Are they not available in English in any shape or form?
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  • The_ShakunetsuThe_Shakunetsu COULD YOU NAME ALL THE CHARACTERS APPEARED IN MY PIC? (spoilers is in my sig) Joined: Posts: 3,568
    edited April 2016
    So do you believe guys that their is really a second tournament? or Just a there is one tournament?
    I kinda thought that if it just what if event that akuma interferance on the Sf2 Finals
    Seems like what Bison really needs is Gill's or Urien's body.
    That would be interesting having Gill's body... that would be so powerful indeed

    I think its okay since we Got still the iconic Urien to continue and claim Gill's legacy in the SF franchise


    SFV Arcademode, Storymode with SFA3 World Tour Challenges & Vtrigger/Vskill ideas
    Arcade Mode Concepts - Better than traditional Arcade Mode | Story Mode Suggestion - Battle Challenges, Battle Attack & Battle Type | V-Trigger & V-Skill Ideas

    Character Wishlist SFV, DBFZ and MVCi

    My DB Characters for DBFZ
    Solo Characters
    1.) Picolo
    2.) Killin
    3.) Kid Buu
    4.) Pikon
    5.) Hit
    6.) Broly - legendary
    7.) Super Janemba
    8.) Gotenks SSJ3
    9.) Great Ape Baby or Adult Form
    10.) Syn Shenron - can transform to Omega
    11.) Caulifa
    12.) Kale
    13.) Dabora with Babidi

    Pair/Tag Character - Can be either like the implementation of this characters in the named game: Choi with Chang in CVS2, Cait with Sith in Code Chaos, Hisuii with Kohaku in MB, Danny with Demi in the Outfoxies, Jie Mei Hua in Dong Dong Never Dies and Groove-&-Fight's Oume with Otane.
    14.) Android 18 with Andriod 17
    15.) Rose with Zamasu
    16.) Dr Jero with Andriod 19
    17.) Yamcha with Puar
    18.) Dabura and Babidi

    Team Character - Can be either like the implementation of this characters in the named game: Captain Commando in MVC2, Doronjo in TVC, Tronbone in MVC2 or Ace Attorney in UMVC3.
    19.) Tien - Some specials summons Chiaozu and Launch
    20.) Ginew Forces - with The Ginew Forces Plays like (Captain Commando in MVC2 or Doronjo in TVC)
    21.) Meta Cooler - Plays like Ultron in MVCi
    22.) Roshi - Some specials summons Turtle and Oolong
    23.) Napa - Summon numerous Saibamen (like Gargos Ki or Tronbone in MVC2)
    24.) Bojack

    My Capcom Characters for Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite
    SIGMA X ULTRON HENCHMEN- Consist of bounty hunters, heroes rival, dominant forces and altered or robotized Capcom characters.

    1.) Cyber Akuma - Akuma with cybernetic enhancement, Ryu's recurring rival.
    2.) Mecha Zangief - A Zangief cloned Repliod.
    3.) Devilot with Super-8 from Cyberbots. (older version that look like Doronjo and plays like Doronjo TVC and Trone bonne combined)
    4.) Cyborg Charlie Nash -MvSF Bison's Ending with Shadow lady missiles and electric shock

    CAPCOM- New Characters

    1.) Felyne - from Monster Hunter (rival to Rocket Racoon)
    2.) Hauzer - from Warzard (Godzilla and Kaiju)
    3.) Son-Son - the original son-son (male) (Goku) (plays like Tekkaman Blade in TVC)
    4.) Nina - from Breath of Fire (plot can be from the cause of using Reality Gem)
    5.) Saturn Dyer - Plasma Sword Character (The Mask) (plays like Yatterman -1 in TVC)
    6.) Tessa/Tabasa - from Warzard (her previous plots revolves on crystals involvement)
    7.) Pure and Fur - Protector of Capcom world.
    8.) Rouge - Power Stone (her previous plots revolves on acquiring power stones involvement)
    9.) Anita(Older) (DS/VS What if Character) - A like a Jojo bizzare character/persona/shaman king, summoner that summons Donovan and his sword (Touhou)
    10.) Ingrid - A crossover character
    11.) Ruby Heart - MVC2 (Magic stone involvement) Pirate
    12.) Asura - from Asura's Wrath.
    13.) Astaroth - from Ghost and Goblins size is like Dormammu or from Project-X-Zone
    14.) Nero - Devil May Cry (mix of Vergil, Dante and TVC Soki)
    15.) Shoma - Rival Schools

    MARVEL

    1.) Doom
    2.) Spider-man
    3.) Wolverine
    4.) Thanos
    5.) Venom
    6.) Cyclops

    My Characters for SF5's 3rd Season on wards

    Different Playstyle I want in SFV
    1.) Xianyu and Jianyu - as a pair fights like Choi and Chang in CVS2.
    2.) Delta Red Rep!! - Can play like Captain Commando.
    3.) Yun and Yang - play like how rival school or Capcom Fighting Jam works you can switch characters after or before round in matches.

    Characters I want to return
    1.) Haggar
    2.) Eagle
    3.) Maki
    4.) Sodom
    5.) Blanka
    6.) Lee - Drunken master
    7.) Feilong -(with Iron Fist playstyle like in UMVC3)
    8.) Necro
    9.) Oro - all projectile are now angled diagonally like Dr Fate(Injustice2) to be different from sim & other shoto
    10.) Sagat
    11.) Q
    12.) Viper

    Characters and concepts that need to explored before going to SF3 Timeline
    1.) Tom
    2.) Effie
    3.) Byron
    4.) Noembelu

    Designs I want to see again in SF
    1.) Asuka (from concept design) - play like KOF kazumi and Hokuto from SFex
    2.) Wraith (Slam Master)

    SFV Guest from SF expansions
    1.) Skullomania
    2.) Garuda

    Extra Battle and Cameo Costumes

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/216908/extra-battle-thoughts-and-ideas-for-dlc-costumes-and-npc-encounters
  • bakfromonbakfromon True Void Joined: Posts: 2,068
    edited April 2016
    Bak, what is the full name of these books and encyclopedias you guys are providing the bios from? Are they not available in English in any shape or form?

    The scans that @Doctrine Dark are providing are from All About Capcom 1987- 2000.

    The scans @Eternal provided were pulled from All About Street Fighter Zero 3.

    I provided the scans from All About Street Fighter EX, originally posted by @Sano on the Warriors Fate thread. These were never translated directly by anyone on the site to my knowledge.

    Last but not least @DRW provided the scans from the Street Fighter 2 Complete File.

    Usually I just shorten the names into acronyms.
    None of these books are available in English, and although a lot of the general info may have been covered in some way shape or form, a majority of the information has either been lost to memory or yet to be uncovered (in English).
    The man I face...my closest friend, my brother in arms, and my greatest rival...how has it come to this?
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  • PVL_93_RUPVL_93_RU When's Dragon Ball? Joined: Posts: 10,843
    What about the Capcom 30th Anniversary Encyclopedia published by Brady Games? Is it of any use for canonical material?
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  • Lord VegaLord Vega Joined: Posts: 338
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    About the Vega/Bison VS Gouki/Akuma

    While Capcom never really said what was retconned or not, I still say it's a safe bet that Gouki SGS Vega happened. Ikeno mentioned in the SFIV/SSFIV that Vega's alternate costume (the one where he is all thrashed) was based off when Vega was defeated by Gouki.
    If you think about it... It DOES fit the storyline.

    Except the notes for that alternate specifically state that Vega is totally unharmed as part of the design. A sneak-attack SGS that murders him isn't likely (IE: it's impossible) to leave him totally unharmed but with battered clothing.

    The unharmed part was mentioned for the design itself. There isn't anything mentioned about what happened with his body in SSF2X (with the exception of Gamest #255 where it was stated that he became flaming powder after the SGS). Also, in Zero 3, Vega is stated to be able to survive an explosion... His clothes were wrecked, but his body was unharmed...
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    And yes, Bison exploding wasn't mentioned anywhere else in SF4...know what else isn't? Bison & Akuma meeting. In fact, the opposite is shown when they interact...their quotes all point to any match between them being a first encounter.

    That's because there wasn't a match. Gouki attacked Vega by surprise. And there's no reason for them to bicker about it in SF4/USF4. Vega was saying that he was the best, Gouki wanted to test it and attacked him with his most powerful move, calling him pathetic for relying only in Psycho Power. Vega was defeated/killed. Since he can resurrect in a new body, and it's Ryu's body his ultimate goal, why would he want revenge or something? He doesn't care for such minor setbacks like these. What he wants is to take over Ryu's body, reach Psycho Power's ultimate potential and take over the planet.

    Also, Zangief and Sakura quotes to each other also hint that they never have met before...
    DRW wrote: »
    Touchdown wrote: »
    Your post is fanon not canon.
    Capcom didn't state it you did.

    Capcom created an anime sequence that clearly shows what happened at the end of SF2. Therefore, they stated it. I merely repeat what's in this anime.

    I don't get why you still deny this. Capcom has shown clearly enough that they don't care to keep a continuity with the old games anymore.
    The best proof is Charlie:

    In SFA2, he was killed, but in SFA3 he was there. Which means his SFA2 ending never happened. Then in Guile's SFA3 ending, he was killed as well, making this his canon death scene.

    But now in SF4 and SF5, they established that his SFA2 ending is his canon death scene.
    So, they completely obliterated basic things of SFA3 from canon. Not only what-if ending scenes. Basic stuff, like Charlie being a selectable character who still works for the Air Force and who goes on a mission with Chun Li and with Guile. This simply doesn't count anymore. I.e. SFA3 isn't canon in its entirety anymore.

    So, why is it so hard to believe that they also removed a bunch of the SF2 stuff?
    Especially when they have a promotional anime, drawn in the same style as the in-game cutscenes, that shows exactly what happens?
    So, do you think the anime is non-canon now, but this one-liner in an English manual is the canon representation of the plot?

    That anime trailer shows what happened AFTER the events of SF2. They didn't mention what events. So we take everything as canon, including the Gouki part. However, when the game came out, Honda is said to be in the international fighting circuit for the first time. SOOOO... his presence in SF2 was retconned...

    It's not hard to believe that they removed a bunch of the SFZ3 and SF2 stuff. However, stablished canon facts that aren't specifically retconned (like Chun-Li facing Balrog instead of Vega at the SFZ2 time), should't be simply removed. Still... Mika's Z3 ending was meant to be a what-if scenario. But SFV proved otherwise...
    DRW wrote: »
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    From CF I just have Vega/Bison and Ryu's profile. Sorry. I'll post Ryu's ASAP.

    Ryu was already posted.

    Bakfromon is comparing both translations.

    DRW wrote: »
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    Cammy's inhuman part was established since SSF2 according to her Gamest account. There it was said that she could heal a bone fracture in a matter of 3 days...

    This doesn't imply her being artificial. Didn't they also establish that Zangief's "muscles of steel" could literally deflect bullets?

    Surely it implies that she isn't 100% normal either. There's also an entry mentioning that she did an exam using a drop of blood, and it was discovered that her appearance didn't match her genetic code (including her gender...). I need to discover where that came from... I'm leaning towards "Mysteries of the Hadouken" (Hadouken no Nazo). The point wasn't when the weird sci-fi stuff was created? Also, you mentioned that she was simply an assassin for Vega...
    DRW wrote: »
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    Ikeno mentioned in the SFIV/SSFIV that Vega's alternate costume (the one where he is all thrashed) was based off when Vega was defeated by Gouki.

    As long as that costume doesn't actually appear in story mode, this has no meaning since it could be just an homage. For example, Evil Ryu has the hole in his chest that he got in the "Ryu Final" manga, even though this didn't happen in the official canon. So, a costume can only indicate stuff if it appears in the story.

    It does pay homage to a canon event. Also, SFIV didn't show much of the character's past....
    DRW wrote: »
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    After Hawk and Cammy's ending, Vega was SGS before the SF2 final and, severely bruised and in a weakened body, is found by Guile (this is based off in Guile's SSF2X japanese version after Guile defeats Gouki and grabs Vega by his gut, the japanese text his somewhat different), Guile's family appears and tell him to not kill Vega. Vega retreats to his base. Guile, Chun-Li (after destroying Shadoloo... or most of it) and Cammy tracks his location and goes after him with Ryu and Ken (in fact, the trailer portrays it just like the SF Cartoon Code of Honor, where Guile is the leader). Vega escapes and commits suicide (either that or Zangief and Mika have something to do with the explosion). His soul goes to Seth 13 and then to his SF4 body...

    Of course, one can always make up stuff to fit stories together. But do you really think this was the intention of the creators here? Do you really think that they created that trailer with the intention that Bison has just been attacked by Akuma? I find this very unlikely.

    Proof that he wasn't attacked? We don't know how much time have passed after the end of SF2 and the suicidal explosion. If Vega have the Psycho Drive, he could be healed in a few moments just like he did several times in Z3...

    The anime was made to make a bridge between SF2 and SF4. I don't think the creators had the intention to alter the outcomes of SF2, since it's placed AFTER the SF2 events.
    DRW wrote: »
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    (while DRW will rush and say that it was Ryu, there's still no official winner declared by Capcom)

    In the new canon, there is no winner, sure. For the old canon (or rather: the very old, pre-Akuma canon), Capcom confirmed that it was Ryu. Shall I present the proof one more time?

    Sure! And I'll argument against it one more time... Also, how can you be so sure that there wasn't a winner in the new canon? Capcom never mentioned anything...
    DRW wrote: »
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    Thing is... The suicide explosion isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in SFIV and USFIV.

    Akuma attacking Bison isn't mentioned either. So, what does that prove?

    Nothing. Capcom didn't mentioned what happened at the very end of SF2 in the new storyline. So...

    Look, I'm not saying that Capcom didn't retcon the Gouki attacking Vega thing. However, they never mentioned anything about it.

    Fretless94 wrote: »
    I think that part in the tubes might have been a flashback.

    Bison's exact words: "She's going to die... But perhaps some kind of bargain could be made..." I don't think they would leave it up in the air what that bargain is. And that bargain is what happens at the end ie Cammy goes with Bison and Decapre to be further experimented on. I don't think they would just put in the ending what they already showed us in the prologue. That would be such an anti-climactic ending.

    Uh, I think the Bargain Bison spoke of is Cammy giving Decapre to Bison, because she apparently wasn't as perfect of a clone Cammy is and thus she was dying because the experimentation on her wasn't finished by the time Shadaloo releases her in the Prologue when she screams KILL KILL KILL

    How is that a bargain? And why would he say he wants her dead and then a bargain could be made in the same sentence? I mean, it would make sense if Decapre was doing something out of the ordinary to surprise Bison, but she's just lying there. My question still holds, what is the bargain if not Decapre AND Cammy going with Bison as shown in the end?

    If memoy serves me right, the japanese dialogue had Vega mentioning about them coming with him. Both of them.

    Vega was taking Decapre with him, with or without Cammy. What he did was to make Cammy coming along with them...
  • bakfromonbakfromon True Void Joined: Posts: 2,068
    edited April 2016
    .
    What about the Capcom 30th Anniversary Encyclopedia published by Brady Games? Is it of any use for canonical material?

    Imo yes, but keep in mind what I'm translating from some of these guide (especially SF2CF and AASFZ3) is usually more of a direct and detailed entry description than anything that's presented in a English guide.
    The man I face...my closest friend, my brother in arms, and my greatest rival...how has it come to this?
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  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,988
    edited April 2016
    "no reason to bicker". Yeah you're right. Obviously if someone murdered Bison he'd totally be like "Oh hey dude, never seen you before. What's up, bro?" next time he sees them. He's an easy-going guy like that and not at all an ego-driven sociopath that would demand come-uppance for anyone that dared to fuck with him like that. Also, Akuma, who is obsessed with fights & death matches would never remark upon an earlier defeat of a foe. Wouldn't happen.

    What the fuck ever.

    Done discussing it. Don't have the patience for shit right now. Honestly, Capcom's so fucking incompetent THEY probably don't even know what's going on. Dumb asses can't even figure out how to release a half-way competent game and that's their focus so why the fuck should they be able to string together a half-coherent narrative with at least the skill of a turtle with a learning disability in aforementioned games? Their track record seems to favor the turtle over them.
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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 26,527
    Rare footage of Yagami actually angry

    Not rare. He would get this angry often in the sales thread when it was still around.
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  • AriesWarlockAriesWarlock Joined: Posts: 3,506
    edited April 2016
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    Done discussing it. Don't have the patience for shit right now. Honestly, Capcom's so fucking incompetent THEY probably don't even know what's going on. Dumb asses can't even figure out how to release a half-way competent game and that's their focus so why the fuck should they be able to string together a half-coherent narrative with at least the skill of a turtle with a learning disability in aforementioned games? Their track record seems to favor the turtle over them.

    I take it it's because of different writers, right? It's like in comics. You ever read Thanos Rising? They retconned Thanos' origin from before even though the original version came straight from his mouth. I don't know why the hell they even allowed that. It's just annoying inconsistencies we have to learn to live with.
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  • ES_CurseES_Curse ALL HAIL THE HOLY PHARAOH Joined: Posts: 8,144
    The "bargain" in Decapre's ending is giving Decapre to Bison. Cammy wanted to save her as she did with Juni, but Decapre was an unstable psychopath that wouldn't rest until Cammy was dead. Bison shows up and offers to take Decapre back rather than let her rot and decay. Cammy, conflicted because returning her would throw her back into Bison's hands, ultimately accepts because she intends to save her from Bison at a later date. Come SFV, she's parting ways with Juni, who has now recovered. Cammy's mission is to rescue more Dolls, which explains her prologue flashback about Decapre and why she breaks into the Shadowloo base and fights FANG.
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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 26,527
    The "bargain" in Decapre's ending is giving Decapre to Bison. Cammy wanted to save her as she did with Juni, but Decapre was an unstable psychopath that wouldn't rest until Cammy was dead. Bison shows up and offers to take Decapre back rather than let her rot and decay. Cammy, conflicted because returning her would throw her back into Bison's hands, ultimately accepts because she intends to save her from Bison at a later date. Come SFV, she's parting ways with Juni, who has now recovered. Cammy's mission is to rescue more Dolls, which explains her prologue flashback about Decapre and why she breaks into the Shadowloo base and fights FANG.

    There's also Birdie's line about Decapre being recalibrated. We know that Bison kept his end of the bargain.
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  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,988
    Rare footage of Yagami actually angry

    Not that rare nowadays unfortunately.
    Rare footage of Yagami actually angry

    Not rare. He would get this angry often in the sales thread when it was still around.

    SFV plus my last year in general can be summed up thusly...

    662.jpg
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    Done discussing it. Don't have the patience for shit right now. Honestly, Capcom's so fucking incompetent THEY probably don't even know what's going on. Dumb asses can't even figure out how to release a half-way competent game and that's their focus so why the fuck should they be able to string together a half-coherent narrative with at least the skill of a turtle with a learning disability in aforementioned games? Their track record seems to favor the turtle over them.

    I take it it's because of different writers, right? It's like in comics. You ever read Thanos Rising? They retconned Thanos' origin from before even though the original version came straight from his mouth. I don't know why the hell they even allowed that. It's just annoying inconsistencies we have to learn to live with.

    Yes, it's a lack of actual story-telling vision that trades on short-term shock & awe over long-term investment. That short-term tactic, just like in comics, burns resources, burns invested fans and NEVER has the sort of return on deposit that actually thinking things through does. Retcons are generally just as lazy as the Warf-effect used to initially boost Akuma over Bison. They're both short-sighted and stupid writing techniques.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

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  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,777 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    DarthEnder wrote: »
    I will say this, I didn't have a problem with Bison at the time. But that's because I didn't find out that he wasn't a martial artist until years later. I always though I just didn't know what his martial art was or(erroneously thanks to EGM) that it was Lerdrit. It wasn't until much later that I found out he's just psychic and his fighting style revolves entirely around his psychokinetic abilities.

    Bolded part is completely wrong. His fighting style does not "revolve entirely around his psychokinetic abilities". It is stated numerous times that he has tremendous physical abilities, especially kicking abilities, which he uses Psycho Power to bolster.

    As noted, look at Bison since the beginning: two of his three signature attacks are kicking attacks that do not involve Psycho Power. Yes, Psycho Power is his Ace in the Hole, so to speak, since his strongest techniques utilize it, but he has a strong physical foundation that he has (also) built up through training.

    re: martial artist

    BTW, as far as I'm concerned and as far as JPN media is concerned, what constitutes the difference between a "martial artist" and a plain "fighter" is training. It seemingly can be any kind of training, even the wrong type of training, but as long as a character is practicing something on a regular basis that they believe will make him/her a better fighter, then that character counts as a martial artist.

    Because the type of "training" is so free form, it vastly expands what can count as a "martial artist". IMO Rose counts as a martial artist, since even if she does 100% psychic exercises and nothing physical, that still counts as "training" for her fighting style. Rufus is also a martial artist, even if a bad one who uses wrong or possible ineffectual training methods. Same with Dan.

    In JPN media, "martial artist" is a state of mind ("I want to improve in my chosen art") and being ("I will practice X techniques to help me improve my chosen art") - the result of said training is irrelevant. If Dee Jay's only martial arts training was, say, dancing in clubs with maracas every night, as long as he did so with the purpose of it improving his skills, then it counts as training whether it works or not.

    DRW:

    Clearly we're not going to agree on this. I still maintain that the world exhibited by the later SFs are a natural progression of the world shown in SF2 (but not the one in SF1), a.k.a. the only part of SF continuum that counts. For whoever suggested it, I would not agree that KoF handles the progression any better - they're about the same really. KoF does have better story telling in general though.

    re: Bison on podium

    Are people forgetting SF2's roots? A lot of that artwork was done at SF2's creation, i.e. before it blew up into a mega entity. Regardless of backstory, the original SF2 tournament was just that - a tournament. So there's no reason why M.Bison, in the beginning before SF2 blew up in popularity, wouldn't stand on the winner's podium in second place next to the winner that wasn't Guile or Chun-li.

    re: Muscle Bomber characters

    I would love to know the situation on the MB characters myself. They're referenced quite a lot in SF lore, but are literally never seen outside of the three MB games. I wonder if Tetsuo Hara completely owns the visual rights to the characters or something? Even Strider, only co-owned by Capcom, has more appearances outside of his own game than the MB characters do!

    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • Doctrine DarkDoctrine Dark Yum Yum Joined: Posts: 7,333
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    Yes, it's a lack of actual story-telling vision that trades on short-term shock & awe over long-term investment. That short-term tactic, just like in comics, burns resources, burns invested fans and NEVER has the sort of return on deposit that actually thinking things through does. Retcons are generally just as lazy as the Warf-effect used to initially boost Akuma over Bison. They're both short-sighted and stupid writing techniques.

    What's even more stupid is the fact that Capcom can acknowledge Bison being SGS by Akuma in a crossover game (SFXT) and completely omit this fact in the main game.

    Even better, friggin SNK has no problem pinpointing Bison being thrashed by Akuma in their own game.

    For SF4, all Capcom had to do was add one quote, or one piece of dialogue that showed Akuma thrashed Bison. You have two of the biggest names in SF and there's not one point where it can made clear to the audience that a battle or attack took place...ever? Come on.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
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  • FengShuiEnergyFengShuiEnergy Serving my robot overlords <3 Joined: Posts: 12,121
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    Yes, it's a lack of actual story-telling vision that trades on short-term shock & awe over long-term investment. That short-term tactic, just like in comics, burns resources, burns invested fans and NEVER has the sort of return on deposit that actually thinking things through does. Retcons are generally just as lazy as the Warf-effect used to initially boost Akuma over Bison. They're both short-sighted and stupid writing techniques.

    What's even more stupid is the fact that Capcom can acknowledge Bison being SGS by Akuma in a crossover game (SFXT) and completely omit this fact in the main game.

    Even better, friggin SNK has no problem pinpointing Bison being thrashed by Akuma in their own game.

    For SF4, all Capcom had to do was add one quote, or one piece of dialogue that showed Akuma thrashed Bison. You have two of the biggest names in SF and there's not one point where it can made clear to the audience that a battle or attack took place...ever? Come on.

    When in doubt blame the ginger.
  • DarthEnderDarthEnder Dragon Force Kin Joined: Posts: 2,705
    Ultima wrote: »
    It is stated numerous times that he has tremendous physical abilities, especially kicking abilities
    And weightlifters also have tremendous lifting abilities. That doesn't make them fighters.
    Ultima wrote: »
    As noted, look at Bison since the beginning: two of his three signature attacks are kicking attacks that do not involve Psycho Power. Yes, Psycho Power is his Ace in the Hole, so to speak, since his strongest techniques utilize it, but he has a strong physical foundation that he has (also) built up through training.
    As long as Capcom continues to list "Psycho Power" as his fighting style, I'm going to keep treating him as untrained in martial arts. And as long as he remains untrained in martial arts, I'm going to continue to consider him a bad SF character.
    Ultima wrote: »
    BTW, as far as I'm concerned and as far as JPN media is concerned, what constitutes the difference between a "martial artist" and a plain "fighter" is training. It seemingly can be any kind of training, even the wrong type of training, but as long as a character is practicing something on a regular basis that they believe will make him/her a better fighter, then that character counts as a martial artist.
    Complete horseshit.

    By that logic, I could practice shooting people with a sniper rifle on a regular basis and count myself as a martial artist. I do believe it will make me a better fighter after all.

  • The_ShakunetsuThe_Shakunetsu COULD YOU NAME ALL THE CHARACTERS APPEARED IN MY PIC? (spoilers is in my sig) Joined: Posts: 3,568
    edited April 2016
    So the second tournament never happened and there is only a one SF tournament were Ryu won against Sagat? As the new Capcom updates.

    SFV Arcademode, Storymode with SFA3 World Tour Challenges & Vtrigger/Vskill ideas
    Arcade Mode Concepts - Better than traditional Arcade Mode | Story Mode Suggestion - Battle Challenges, Battle Attack & Battle Type | V-Trigger & V-Skill Ideas

    Character Wishlist SFV, DBFZ and MVCi

    My DB Characters for DBFZ
    Solo Characters
    1.) Picolo
    2.) Killin
    3.) Kid Buu
    4.) Pikon
    5.) Hit
    6.) Broly - legendary
    7.) Super Janemba
    8.) Gotenks SSJ3
    9.) Great Ape Baby or Adult Form
    10.) Syn Shenron - can transform to Omega
    11.) Caulifa
    12.) Kale
    13.) Dabora with Babidi

    Pair/Tag Character - Can be either like the implementation of this characters in the named game: Choi with Chang in CVS2, Cait with Sith in Code Chaos, Hisuii with Kohaku in MB, Danny with Demi in the Outfoxies, Jie Mei Hua in Dong Dong Never Dies and Groove-&-Fight's Oume with Otane.
    14.) Android 18 with Andriod 17
    15.) Rose with Zamasu
    16.) Dr Jero with Andriod 19
    17.) Yamcha with Puar
    18.) Dabura and Babidi

    Team Character - Can be either like the implementation of this characters in the named game: Captain Commando in MVC2, Doronjo in TVC, Tronbone in MVC2 or Ace Attorney in UMVC3.
    19.) Tien - Some specials summons Chiaozu and Launch
    20.) Ginew Forces - with The Ginew Forces Plays like (Captain Commando in MVC2 or Doronjo in TVC)
    21.) Meta Cooler - Plays like Ultron in MVCi
    22.) Roshi - Some specials summons Turtle and Oolong
    23.) Napa - Summon numerous Saibamen (like Gargos Ki or Tronbone in MVC2)
    24.) Bojack

    My Capcom Characters for Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite
    SIGMA X ULTRON HENCHMEN- Consist of bounty hunters, heroes rival, dominant forces and altered or robotized Capcom characters.

    1.) Cyber Akuma - Akuma with cybernetic enhancement, Ryu's recurring rival.
    2.) Mecha Zangief - A Zangief cloned Repliod.
    3.) Devilot with Super-8 from Cyberbots. (older version that look like Doronjo and plays like Doronjo TVC and Trone bonne combined)
    4.) Cyborg Charlie Nash -MvSF Bison's Ending with Shadow lady missiles and electric shock

    CAPCOM- New Characters

    1.) Felyne - from Monster Hunter (rival to Rocket Racoon)
    2.) Hauzer - from Warzard (Godzilla and Kaiju)
    3.) Son-Son - the original son-son (male) (Goku) (plays like Tekkaman Blade in TVC)
    4.) Nina - from Breath of Fire (plot can be from the cause of using Reality Gem)
    5.) Saturn Dyer - Plasma Sword Character (The Mask) (plays like Yatterman -1 in TVC)
    6.) Tessa/Tabasa - from Warzard (her previous plots revolves on crystals involvement)
    7.) Pure and Fur - Protector of Capcom world.
    8.) Rouge - Power Stone (her previous plots revolves on acquiring power stones involvement)
    9.) Anita(Older) (DS/VS What if Character) - A like a Jojo bizzare character/persona/shaman king, summoner that summons Donovan and his sword (Touhou)
    10.) Ingrid - A crossover character
    11.) Ruby Heart - MVC2 (Magic stone involvement) Pirate
    12.) Asura - from Asura's Wrath.
    13.) Astaroth - from Ghost and Goblins size is like Dormammu or from Project-X-Zone
    14.) Nero - Devil May Cry (mix of Vergil, Dante and TVC Soki)
    15.) Shoma - Rival Schools

    MARVEL

    1.) Doom
    2.) Spider-man
    3.) Wolverine
    4.) Thanos
    5.) Venom
    6.) Cyclops

    My Characters for SF5's 3rd Season on wards

    Different Playstyle I want in SFV
    1.) Xianyu and Jianyu - as a pair fights like Choi and Chang in CVS2.
    2.) Delta Red Rep!! - Can play like Captain Commando.
    3.) Yun and Yang - play like how rival school or Capcom Fighting Jam works you can switch characters after or before round in matches.

    Characters I want to return
    1.) Haggar
    2.) Eagle
    3.) Maki
    4.) Sodom
    5.) Blanka
    6.) Lee - Drunken master
    7.) Feilong -(with Iron Fist playstyle like in UMVC3)
    8.) Necro
    9.) Oro - all projectile are now angled diagonally like Dr Fate(Injustice2) to be different from sim & other shoto
    10.) Sagat
    11.) Q
    12.) Viper

    Characters and concepts that need to explored before going to SF3 Timeline
    1.) Tom
    2.) Effie
    3.) Byron
    4.) Noembelu

    Designs I want to see again in SF
    1.) Asuka (from concept design) - play like KOF kazumi and Hokuto from SFex
    2.) Wraith (Slam Master)

    SFV Guest from SF expansions
    1.) Skullomania
    2.) Garuda

    Extra Battle and Cameo Costumes

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/216908/extra-battle-thoughts-and-ideas-for-dlc-costumes-and-npc-encounters
  • PVL_93_RUPVL_93_RU When's Dragon Ball? Joined: Posts: 10,843
    So the second tournament never happened and there is only a one SF tournament were Ryu won against Sagat? As the new Capcom updates.

    The tournament most definitely happened. Bison used it to attract the strongest world warriors out there to find a spare body for himself, Cammy, Chun and Guile used the entry to reach Bison and destroy him, and I suppose at the finals - this happened:



    I actually think the sole reason why Capcom hasn't named the concrete winner of the World Warrior tournament is not because they themselves didn't care or didn't know - but because the Finals (against Bison) were compromised, by the Heroes, attacking Bison, so technically the tournament itself never actually concluded

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  • Kriger SternKriger Stern Bison Scientist Joined: Posts: 1,599
    edited April 2016
    What about the Capcom 30th Anniversary Encyclopedia published by Brady Games? Is it of any use for canonical material?

    I have the updated SF Encyclopedia. Does anyone know if the text changed from the first version? I know that Akuma and Bison's meeting wasn't mentioned anywhere in the new encyclopedia.
    DarthEnder wrote: »
    Ultima wrote: »
    It is stated numerous times that he has tremendous physical abilities, especially kicking abilities
    And weightlifters also have tremendous lifting abilities. That doesn't make them fighters.
    Ultima wrote: »
    As noted, look at Bison since the beginning: two of his three signature attacks are kicking attacks that do not involve Psycho Power. Yes, Psycho Power is his Ace in the Hole, so to speak, since his strongest techniques utilize it, but he has a strong physical foundation that he has (also) built up through training.
    As long as Capcom continues to list "Psycho Power" as his fighting style, I'm going to keep treating him as untrained in martial arts. And as long as he remains untrained in martial arts, I'm going to continue to consider him a bad SF character.
    Ultima wrote: »
    BTW, as far as I'm concerned and as far as JPN media is concerned, what constitutes the difference between a "martial artist" and a plain "fighter" is training. It seemingly can be any kind of training, even the wrong type of training, but as long as a character is practicing something on a regular basis that they believe will make him/her a better fighter, then that character counts as a martial artist.
    Complete horseshit.

    By that logic, I could practice shooting people with a sniper rifle on a regular basis and count myself as a martial artist. I do believe it will make me a better fighter after all.

    His ingame animations denote knowledge of advanced combat. Sure, sometimes he mixes them with his powers (skull diver, knee press, slide,j.hp), but others are universal (block, crlp, mps, smk, jhk).
    -Daeyrat
  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,777 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    DarthEnder wrote: »
    Ultima wrote: »
    It is stated numerous times that he has tremendous physical abilities, especially kicking abilities
    And weightlifters also have tremendous lifting abilities. That doesn't make them fighters.

    So you're disregarding all his SF2 profile stuff then? Okay.
    Ultima wrote: »
    As noted, look at Bison since the beginning: two of his three signature attacks are kicking attacks that do not involve Psycho Power. Yes, Psycho Power is his Ace in the Hole, so to speak, since his strongest techniques utilize it, but he has a strong physical foundation that he has (also) built up through training.
    As long as Capcom continues to list "Psycho Power" as his fighting style, I'm going to keep treating him as untrained in martial arts. And as long as he remains untrained in martial arts, I'm going to continue to consider him a bad SF character.

    You're entitle to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts. They explicitly state that he's a martial artist (only now we get info that his Double Knee Press has Muay Thai roots). You can question the likes of Rose if you want, but not M.Bison. As has been stated, his wanting to be the best fighter supersedes his world domination crap!
    Ultima wrote: »
    BTW, as far as I'm concerned and as far as JPN media is concerned, what constitutes the difference between a "martial artist" and a plain "fighter" is training. It seemingly can be any kind of training, even the wrong type of training, but as long as a character is practicing something on a regular basis that they believe will make him/her a better fighter, then that character counts as a martial artist.
    Complete horseshit.

    By that logic, I could practice shooting people with a sniper rifle on a regular basis and count myself as a martial artist. I do believe it will make me a better fighter after all.

    By JPN media logic, that's absolutely correct. If you called your fighting style "Sniper Rifle Arts" and practiced it constantly, it would count.

    By the way, don't forget that Nanto Bakusatsu Ken (essentially dymanite throwing) is a thing in Hokuto no Ken (anime-only though). Or hell: Half the shit that passed through Ranma 1/2 ("Martial Arts Rhythmic Gymnastics" and "Martial Arts Cheerleading", or the styles developed by Genma that basically were meant to break into houses). "Martial Arts" is to Japan as "Mutant powers" is to Marvel Comics.

    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • DarthEnderDarthEnder Dragon Force Kin Joined: Posts: 2,705
    Ultima wrote: »
    You're entitle to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts. They explicitly state that he's a martial artist (only now we get info that his Double Knee Press has Muay Thai roots).
    Haven't seen this. Where was it?
    Ultima wrote: »
    By JPN media logic, that's absolutely correct. If you called your fighting style "Sniper Rifle Arts" and practiced it constantly, it would count.
    Then Japan is wrong.

    Wouldn't be the first time.

  • Super SonicSuper Sonic Joined: Posts: 1,541
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    Lord Vega wrote: »
    Fretless94 wrote: »
    I think that part in the tubes might have been a flashback.

    Bison's exact words: "She's going to die... But perhaps some kind of bargain could be made..." I don't think they would leave it up in the air what that bargain is. And that bargain is what happens at the end ie Cammy goes with Bison and Decapre to be further experimented on. I don't think they would just put in the ending what they already showed us in the prologue. That would be such an anti-climactic ending.

    Uh, I think the Bargain Bison spoke of is Cammy giving Decapre to Bison, because she apparently wasn't as perfect of a clone Cammy is and thus she was dying because the experimentation on her wasn't finished by the time Shadaloo releases her in the Prologue when she screams KILL KILL KILL

    How is that a bargain? And why would he say he wants her dead and then a bargain could be made in the same sentence? I mean, it would make sense if Decapre was doing something out of the ordinary to surprise Bison, but she's just lying there. My question still holds, what is the bargain if not Decapre AND Cammy going with Bison as shown in the end?

    If memoy serves me right, the japanese dialogue had Vega mentioning about them coming with him. Both of them.

    Vega was taking Decapre with him, with or without Cammy. What he did was to make Cammy coming along with them...

    Yes! That's what I was talking about. Seeing as how Cammy is alive and kicking in SFV, that ending didn't happen, right?
    Fighting with Conviction Leads to Victory!
  • bakfromonbakfromon True Void Joined: Posts: 2,068
    edited April 2016
    DarthEnder wrote: »
    Ultima wrote: »
    You're entitle to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts. They explicitly state that he's a martial artist (only now we get info that his Double Knee Press has Muay Thai roots).
    Haven't seen this. Where was it?
    Ultima wrote: »
    By JPN media logic, that's absolutely correct. If you called your fighting style "Sniper Rifle Arts" and practiced it constantly, it would count.
    Then Japan is wrong.

    Wouldn't be the first time.

    @DarthEnder I know you haven't been following my translations on the guides consistently so I thought I should fill you in on M. Bison's martial art ability.


    From the Street Fighter 2 Complete File.
    Double Knee Press:
    In this move, Vega applied a fighting technique that he developed through martial arts, not using supernatural powers. Despite being a very unique maneuver, it's difficult to discern the origin of the martial arts employed, we can see that there is an influence of Muay Thai.
    As stated in the name of the move, originally, the blow would start from the knees, but he ends up unleashing the movement with the whole leg. So it is not easy for the opponent to counterattack this cowardly technique. It is a movement that shows all the cruelty of Vega.

    So yes, M. Bison actually has martial arts ability as well as his Psycho Power. Having his fighting style listed as Psycho Power would ultimately mean he fights using techniques that have all been boosted with Psycho Power. Ultimately he has fighting ability without the use of Psycho Power.
    The man I face...my closest friend, my brother in arms, and my greatest rival...how has it come to this?
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  • DarthEnderDarthEnder Dragon Force Kin Joined: Posts: 2,705
    Fair enough.
  • ShockdingoShockdingo Freelance voice actor & Reploid.PHD in Q speculation. Joined: Posts: 1,736
    bakfromon wrote: »
    Guile's SF2CF entry was a pretty interesting read. I especially like how the Sonic Boom and Flash Kick are described, they seem like some top notch techniques. Go home to be a family man and cue the Guile theme.

    Guile
    Whoa, I absolutely love the description of his moves here. What's interesting is the old tidbit about the science team helping him develop his abilities even more. I remember that from over a decade ago being discussed but could never remember where it came from. This has interesting implications for the SF universe concerning ki/chi, it may not be a mystical force that the US govt and others are oblivious to. Here, from my understanding, is that they don't fully know of it, but there's enough that they don't just outright reject it as mystical mumbo jumbo.

    @DarthEnder The thing is, Bison's always been a martial artist. His whole thing isn't that he's born a psychic mutant. He trained in some martial art that expanded his overall skill and gave him these abilities with an unknown master and other students. In one of the conversations we had earlier in this thread, we looked at how in his old material they stated he was born under an evil star, succeeded his master and murdered him, slowly built up Shadaloo, was pursued by authorities in his early days and disappeared when a war broke out only to resurface ages later as the Bison we know. All of that stresses that he had/has a rather strong martial arts connection. He just has evolved in a new way and psycho power being his everything would make sense to be listed as his fighting technique. It's like how at first Ryu and Ken were intended to utilize judo and some other skills. When someone evolves something enough and have their own style they're going to put their own brand name on it. Look at Dan. Not the best example, but he was trained in Anatsuken, washed out of Gouken's favour, and made his own style in name and variation from the Hadou bros.

    Heck, the psychic stuff could be explained away by saying that in addition to rigorous training, the art he was a part of required meditation in intense and life-threatening manners to open up the soul and spirit connection or something. With the way that martial arts in SF works on the physical body, having a strong meditation and mental path could influence the mind and do freaky things as well.

    @Ultima Props for mentioning Ranma's anything goes martial arts. That's what I frequently look at and cite when this subject comes around. Japan in entertainment has quite a bit of leeway and fun with what counts as martial arts and it's why I dig SF.
    Cestus wrote: »
    Not even Necalli is that. Maybe Blanka is the only true not martial artist

    2- Tbh Sniper Marksmanship can be in some way be considered a martial art, as it is the evolution of the bow.
    And archery by some is considered an actual martial art.
    And btw "Martial" come from Mars, the roman God of war. So martial literally mean "related to war"
    And in 2016 a sniper rifle is more war related than spinning back kicks.

    Interesting points, especially on the origin of Martial arts, never thought of it like that. On the Blanka point I'd disagree with you. He doesn't really show it in game, but basically they said he based his fighting style on observing wild animals. He may not have anything official, but in the spirit of things, that's not too different from how Kung Fu was based on observing and interpreting animal movements. If I was redesigning him for SF5, I'd make some sweeping changes. He knows Dan and Dan, despite being...well Dan...has foundation in martial arts form. I could see Blanka learning a thing or two and mixing it all together to combine his rough, bestial fighting skill with some martial arts and really refine the animal mimicry. Not quite as complex as Gen; but more like the basic concept and having a few moves in his arsenal than entire styles based on Crane AND Mantis;

    Rolling Attack [Monkey Based: Swinging and cannon ball launching utilizing agility]

    Storming Panther [Jungle Cat Based: Anti-air move utilizing lunging and claw strikes]

    Thunderous Leapfrog [Frog Based: Multi hit kick special that ends with electrified spinning heel strike]

    *Man I wish I could make 3d models, I'd totally re-design Blanka, mockup some animations, find Ono's favourite Beer and mail it all to him asap*
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  • bakfromonbakfromon True Void Joined: Posts: 2,068
    edited April 2016
    Shockdingo wrote: »
    bakfromon wrote: »
    Guile's SF2CF entry was a pretty interesting read. I especially like how the Sonic Boom and Flash Kick are described, they seem like some top notch techniques. Go home to be a family man and cue the Guile theme.

    Guile
    Whoa, I absolutely love the description of his moves here. What's interesting is the old tidbit about the science team helping him develop his abilities even more. I remember that from over a decade ago being discussed but could never remember where it came from. This has interesting implications for the SF universe concerning ki/chi, it may not be a mystical force that the US govt and others are oblivious to. Here, from my understanding, is that they don't fully know of it, but there's enough that they don't just outright reject it as mystical mumbo jumbo.

    It's interesting to note that the Hadoken had been described as having reached a level of Senjutsu, meaning that "ki" attacks are still classified under an esoteric art even in the SF universe. It's not something someone should be able to learn from basic martial arts training alone.

    Unlike a Hadoken, Guile's Sonic Boom doesn't rely on the bodies torsional force, but upon the speed of the arms and the shockwave created. Just from the description it sounds like it uses less "ki" overall, but makes up for it with the actual shockwave.

    The "flash" in a Somersault Kick is not "ki" energy, but a pure sound shockwave which creates a vacuum pressure around itself that can split the moisture in the air.

    Overall Guile's and Nash's special techniques are described as sounding even fiercer than their Shotoclone counterparts.
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  • DarthEnderDarthEnder Dragon Force Kin Joined: Posts: 2,705
    Cestus wrote: »
    And btw "Martial" come from Mars, the roman God of war. So martial literally mean "related to war"
    And in 2016 a sniper rifle is more war related than spinning back kicks.
    I don't think the ancient etymology of the word is really relevant to the modern meaning. That kind of ridiculously broad interpretation means blowing people up with drones or dropping nukes on cities is still a "martial art".
  • CestusCestus Sorry for my english :D Joined: Posts: 6,408
    Shockdingo wrote: »
    bakfromon wrote: »
    Guile's SF2CF entry was a pretty interesting read. I especially like how the Sonic Boom and Flash Kick are described, they seem like some top notch techniques. Go home to be a family man and cue the Guile theme.

    Guile
    Whoa, I absolutely love the description of his moves here. What's interesting is the old tidbit about the science team helping him develop his abilities even more. I remember that from over a decade ago being discussed but could never remember where it came from. This has interesting implications for the SF universe concerning ki/chi, it may not be a mystical force that the US govt and others are oblivious to. Here, from my understanding, is that they don't fully know of it, but there's enough that they don't just outright reject it as mystical mumbo jumbo.

    @DarthEnder The thing is, Bison's always been a martial artist. His whole thing isn't that he's born a psychic mutant. He trained in some martial art that expanded his overall skill and gave him these abilities with an unknown master and other students. In one of the conversations we had earlier in this thread, we looked at how in his old material they stated he was born under an evil star, succeeded his master and murdered him, slowly built up Shadaloo, was pursued by authorities in his early days and disappeared when a war broke out only to resurface ages later as the Bison we know. All of that stresses that he had/has a rather strong martial arts connection. He just has evolved in a new way and psycho power being his everything would make sense to be listed as his fighting technique. It's like how at first Ryu and Ken were intended to utilize judo and some other skills. When someone evolves something enough and have their own style they're going to put their own brand name on it. Look at Dan. Not the best example, but he was trained in Anatsuken, washed out of Gouken's favour, and made his own style in name and variation from the Hadou bros.

    Heck, the psychic stuff could be explained away by saying that in addition to rigorous training, the art he was a part of required meditation in intense and life-threatening manners to open up the soul and spirit connection or something. With the way that martial arts in SF works on the physical body, having a strong meditation and mental path could influence the mind and do freaky things as well.

    @Ultima Props for mentioning Ranma's anything goes martial arts. That's what I frequently look at and cite when this subject comes around. Japan in entertainment has quite a bit of leeway and fun with what counts as martial arts and it's why I dig SF.
    Cestus wrote: »
    Not even Necalli is that. Maybe Blanka is the only true not martial artist

    2- Tbh Sniper Marksmanship can be in some way be considered a martial art, as it is the evolution of the bow.
    And archery by some is considered an actual martial art.
    And btw "Martial" come from Mars, the roman God of war. So martial literally mean "related to war"
    And in 2016 a sniper rifle is more war related than spinning back kicks.

    Interesting points, especially on the origin of Martial arts, never thought of it like that. On the Blanka point I'd disagree with you. He doesn't really show it in game, but basically they said he based his fighting style on observing wild animals. He may not have anything official, but in the spirit of things, that's not too different from how Kung Fu was based on observing and interpreting animal movements. If I was redesigning him for SF5, I'd make some sweeping changes. He knows Dan and Dan, despite being...well Dan...has foundation in martial arts form. I could see Blanka learning a thing or two and mixing it all together to combine his rough, bestial fighting skill with some martial arts and really refine the animal mimicry. Not quite as complex as Gen; but more like the basic concept and having a few moves in his arsenal than entire styles based on Crane AND Mantis;
    Rolling Attack [Monkey Based: Swinging and cannon ball launching utilizing agility]
    Storming Panther [Jungle Cat Based: Anti-air move utilizing lunging and claw strikes]
    Thunderous Leapfrog [Frog Based: Multi hit kick special that ends with electrified spinning heel strike]
    *Man I wish I could make 3d models, I'd totally re-design Blanka, mockup some animations, find Ono's favourite Beer and mail it all to him asap*

    Take martial arts, consider just "arts"
    An art is a discipline that you learn, a discipline (kick-faces, painting, play a violin) is a knowledge that you get from a master, that usually learned it from his master and so on

    Applied to martial arts these movements they teach you go to replace your istinctive (animal) reaction with a more efficient movement... it does'nt erase your istinct, it become your new istinct. But is teached.
    If you're trained well if somebody try to punch you you don't THINK about what you learned in the gym, you just istinctively do a boxing dodge/block because is becomed your new istinct.

    The point of martial arts is that generation after generation, master after master, the experience get cumulated.
    Four masters ago a Master losed 3 teeths because at that time the way of block that strike sucked, so pissed he searched a solution and developed a better way to block, and four master after you get the right defense from that strike without have to lose YOUR 3 teeths.

    Think technology, we don't start each time reinventing the wheel or discovering fire, we are born with PC and planes, cool shit.

    That's the basic concept of Martial Art and culture on general (and culture differentiate us from animals waaay more than intelligence itself), wich is what Blanka does'nt have

    Necalli look wild, but his movements still show a style, coded controlled movements, like a primitive martial art.
    Also Nec come from a culture, lived with other humans, learned from and fought other humans

    Blanka had to use his own experience (wich erase the whole concept of martial art), no master, and not even peoples to fight... his fighting was about hunt animals and not get eated by animals
    His style does'nt replace istinct because his style is his istinct+personal experience(3 teeths), aside being smarter he's not more martial artist than a monkey, a jaguar, a caiman or whatever else tried to eat him

    Btw it can become a style/culture if he will ever teach it to somebody (becoming the first Grandmaster of that shit), like for that Tarzan Dan alt lol

    ps: kung fu animals styles was'nt about imitating animals.
    Was about two little chinese with fun staches punching the shit out of each other faces. Then they enjoyed it so much that they keep searching new creative ways to keep beat the shit out of each other, and doing so they took inspiration from animals movements.
    Blanka lacked the fun stache and a little chinese to punch in the face.
    Blanka never learned from animals how to punch chinese peoples, he learned from animals how to survive in amazonian jungle, wich as only possible darwin path turned him into a giant greenmonkeyjaguar able to generate electricy.
    Wich in SF world is good enough to fuck up humans too, even if he never (or for most of his life) trained for that
    I designed SFV Ken, your argument is invalid.
    "@Cestus tightened her ass up" - YagamiFire

    All SFV Colors here!- http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/214626/new-colors-for-story-and-battle-alts/p1
  • DarthEnderDarthEnder Dragon Force Kin Joined: Posts: 2,705
    Cestus wrote: »
    Take martial arts, consider just "arts"
    An art is a discipline that you learn, a discipline (kick-faces, painting, play a violin) is a knowledge that you get from a master, that usually learned it from his master and so on
    I'm not sure where you got that definition of art from. The world is full of self-taught artists who never studied under masters.

    The fact that Bison learned his powers from a master only makes him a martial artist if the powers he taught him included martial arts. If Bison's master only taught him his psychic abilities, and Bison learned his martial arts elsewhere, then the two things are completely unrelated.

  • bakfromonbakfromon True Void Joined: Posts: 2,068
    edited April 2016
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    I think the difference between the two is that the hadoken is intended to win a martial arts match. Charlie, on the other hand, seems to have developed the sonic boom and flash kick with a military mindset IE: to kill the hell out of people. Those attacks are lethal as SHIT.

    Granted Gouken's style variant of Hadoken is intended to win a match, but the Goutetsu style would've probably been the more lethal variant. Although this was during a time in the story when Ryu and Ken's art wasn't considered rooted in ansatsuken, it just makes me wonder how a plain Hadoken could potentially kill a person. Would it have to deal with how dense the ki is? Because Hadoken doesn't travel at Sonic Boom speeds, it's killing potential would have to be behind how dense it would be.

    Even during this time when the Shoryuken isn't deemed an Ansatsuken it still described as an uppercut with several times the power of a straight. Although a boxing straight isn't as powerful as an uppercut or hook in of itself, and a karate straight (Gyaku-zuki or Ryu's SFV st. HP) is even less power, in the right hands it's a devastating blow, and with several times the power packed within the torsion of a jumping uppercut at.
    The man I face...my closest friend, my brother in arms, and my greatest rival...how has it come to this?
    Japanese language is a 10-0 matchup unless you have that bakfromon Discord tech

    New Street Fighter Plot Guide in the works!!! Currently featuring both Japanese and English transcripts for all the profiles of your favorite World Warriors.
  • AriesWarlockAriesWarlock Joined: Posts: 3,506
    bakfromon wrote: »
    Shockdingo wrote: »
    bakfromon wrote: »
    Guile's SF2CF entry was a pretty interesting read. I especially like how the Sonic Boom and Flash Kick are described, they seem like some top notch techniques. Go home to be a family man and cue the Guile theme.

    Guile
    Whoa, I absolutely love the description of his moves here. What's interesting is the old tidbit about the science team helping him develop his abilities even more. I remember that from over a decade ago being discussed but could never remember where it came from. This has interesting implications for the SF universe concerning ki/chi, it may not be a mystical force that the US govt and others are oblivious to. Here, from my understanding, is that they don't fully know of it, but there's enough that they don't just outright reject it as mystical mumbo jumbo.

    It's interesting to note that the Hadoken had been described as having reached a level of Senjutsu, meaning that "ki" attacks are still classified under an esoteric art even in the SF universe. It's not something someone should be able to learn from basic martial arts training alone.

    This reminds me of the SFII V anime series. I don't remember the explanation but in one episode they explained the origins of hadouken and shit.

    "Umvc3 is a 2 player game the same way Super Mario Bros. was on NES. You gotta wait for someone to die before the other has a chance to play"
  • bakfromonbakfromon True Void Joined: Posts: 2,068
    bakfromon wrote: »
    Shockdingo wrote: »
    bakfromon wrote: »
    Guile's SF2CF entry was a pretty interesting read. I especially like how the Sonic Boom and Flash Kick are described, they seem like some top notch techniques. Go home to be a family man and cue the Guile theme.

    Guile
    Whoa, I absolutely love the description of his moves here. What's interesting is the old tidbit about the science team helping him develop his abilities even more. I remember that from over a decade ago being discussed but could never remember where it came from. This has interesting implications for the SF universe concerning ki/chi, it may not be a mystical force that the US govt and others are oblivious to. Here, from my understanding, is that they don't fully know of it, but there's enough that they don't just outright reject it as mystical mumbo jumbo.

    It's interesting to note that the Hadoken had been described as having reached a level of Senjutsu, meaning that "ki" attacks are still classified under an esoteric art even in the SF universe. It's not something someone should be able to learn from basic martial arts training alone.

    This reminds me of the SFII V anime series. I don't remember the explanation but in one episode they explained the origins of hadouken and shit.
    Dhalsim sits under a tree, focusing on his breathing. One of the camera angles briefly makes it look like he's levitating, but as Ken and Ryu watch they do not act like anything is unusual. I'm going to assume its either just an odd angle, or a subtle sight gag.
    Dhalsim continues to breathe, and after a few moments he gets the same flame and glowy effect that Yo Sen Kai got back in episode 6. After a few moments of funky effects, a line of energy shoots skyward from Dhalsim. There's a quick cut to Ryu, as he displays a similar discharge. He is clearly surprised by it. Ken does not react, so I assume this is something that the audience gets to see, but those not sensitive to Hadou do not. Dhalsim goes on to explain that this breathing technique allows one to focus their Ki, and in turn they can turn it into Hadou. This technique is called Kundalini, but he is not sure if this is the Hadou Ryu and Ken seek, as there are other forms.
    At this point Ryu yells out to Dhalsim with an uncharacteristic amount of panic in his voice. Something is wrong with his body. He feels like his body is going to explode at any moment, raw energy building up in his stomach, ready to burst. In what I think is a first for the series, he admits to being scared.
    Ryu thinks this sensation is Hadou, and his instincts are telling him that he has to shoot it out of himself, somehow. Cue some dramatic violin. Ken and Dhalsim look on as Ryu throws his hands in the air and waves them like he just doesn't care.

    I had actually posted this in the old thread describing the reference it had to Seth's SF4 stage. Apparently the S.I.N labs were doing some test that had to do with Kundalini
    The man I face...my closest friend, my brother in arms, and my greatest rival...how has it come to this?
    Japanese language is a 10-0 matchup unless you have that bakfromon Discord tech

    New Street Fighter Plot Guide in the works!!! Currently featuring both Japanese and English transcripts for all the profiles of your favorite World Warriors.
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