Guilty Gear Xrd -REVELATOR- one of life's gilty pleasures

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  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 82
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    The point is that no one had a fun time dealing with that shit.

    Does anyone have fun dealing with other characters bullshit? Do you have fun dealing with Jack-Os minions or Chipp's teleports? People complain for days about both those characters. You really can't judge a mechanic's worth by what people losing to it say.

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC), then we should add more nonsense because, well, why the fuck not, basically. I don't think I have to explain why that's a pretty terrible design and balancing philosophy. You wouldn't ease the pain of a wound by pouring salt on it, after all. If we're going to put bullshit in the game, then let's make sure that the bullshit serves an actual purpose and not "just because." GCs no longer do, imo, because I firmly believe that Baiken can be the defensive juggernaut she's always been without them. If you feel that she deserves them and can't be who she is without them, then fine, agree to disagree, but if memory serves me correctly you even admitted earlier that she doesn't truly need them.

    Saandro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Of course, some people won't be happy until she gets true guard cancels back. As was pointed out above though, that's basically tough shit, because everyone lost things going in to Xrd. Ky players want to end their combos with Vapor Thrust knockdown again, Zato players want far drill FRC, force break drill and the AC shadow movelist back, Slayer wants Big Bang Upper back, etc.

    I don't think these are good comparisons. The characters still largely play the same, even with some options removed. Imagine if Slayer got dandy step removed, his dash changed into a normal run and given a shoryuken as compensation. Also, for someone who said he didn't play during XX you sure do have a strong opinion on how unfun Baiken was to play against.

    Anyway, I realize GC's are (probably) not coming back. Like I said, I just think Baiken needs something to make her playstyle more unique.

    I think they're perfectly fine comparisons. If you honestly believe that removing GCs in favor of Azami is comparable to giving Slayer a run and a DP and taking away Dandy Step, I honestly don't know what to tell you. There's a difference between fundamentally altering how a character plays, and reworking a character's kit. With Baiken, the essential flavor is still the same: you get to cancel your guard without meter, something no other character can do. In XX, you could just do an attack; in this game, you have to counter something first. If that's equivalent to basically turning Ky into a rushdown character or Jam into a zoner then I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I think Baiken's defensive playstyle will be unique enough if given the proper adjustments.
  • jblairjblair Joined: Posts: 1,450
    You guys are fuckin babies if you "didn't have fun" dealing with baiken in XX. The character had really weak neutral and was able to compete because of the guard cancel meta game. I have plenty of fun trying to bait/punish the various guard cancels. Just because you can't auto pilot your pressure vs baiken doesn't mean it wasn't fun.
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 82
    edited August 3
    Great. You had fun dealing with guard cancels. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at; some people can just have different tastes, after all. You enjoy fighting GCs, some people enjoy playing low tier for the sake of playing low tier, and I'm sure some people enjoy playing Superman 64 and sticking their dicks in wall sockets. Not everyone has to like or dislike the same things. Just speak for yourself instead of thinking that everyone who doesn't like what you like must be "fuckin babies."

    As for me, I'm done arguing and am just going to agree to disagree. For the record: I don't think GCs are broken or unbalanced or unfair or anything like that. They were removed because most people didn't enjoy fighting against it and because Baiken's old style is just too antithetical to the way the game at large is played. You can disagree with me all you want, but at the end of the day, there are plenty of players who will you tell you the same thing, and Daisuke himself has said that he didn't like that Baiken could play a non-committal, turtle style either, so ArcSys reworked her to take her in a different direction, while still having a guard cancel option to keep the basic flavor the same. If that makes Daisuke, Pachi, and everyone who didn't like old Baiken babies, then so be it. I simply don't believe she needs them back, as I think her current design can work and still feel like Baiken if they improve Azami, and improve her consistency and options in neutral. There's really no sense in arguing over this anyway, since ArcSys is almost certainly never bringing them back. Not to mention that the time that Baiken players spend arguing for GCs to come back is time that they could have spent making Xrd Baiken work for them while ArcSys hopefully works on changes that she actually needs.
  • jblairjblair Joined: Posts: 1,450
    She probably shouldn't have them back in Xrd, but Xrd is a pretty different game, and I don't know why "IT WASN'T FUN" is your argument, lol

    Azami will probably become more rewarding as time goes on. She could use a little buff to her neutral game, probably more active tatami or something.
  • jblairjblair Joined: Posts: 1,450
    Psaro wrote: »
    Daisuke himself has said that he didn't like that Baiken could play a non-committal style.

    Just re-read the interview to make sure that you pulled "non-committal" out of your ass. Guard cancels were a huge commitment every time.

  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 82
    edited August 4
    Nice strawman. I think it's pretty clear that when I said non-committal and turtle back to back before "style," I'm referring to style, not guard cancels. I mean, it's literally right there, in what you quoted lol. Where do you see me referring to "guard cancels" in that sentence? Not my fault you apparently don't know how to read. You're right. Daisuke may not have actually said "non-committal," but he did go so far as to say she was a turtle character, and if you're actually going to sit here and argue that turtling isn't a low commitment style then... I don't know what to tell you. As I said, I'm done arguing, but don't misrepresent my argument.
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Lab Cat Joined: Posts: 22,410
    This whole argument is stupid.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,913 mod
    Psaro wrote: »
    Nice strawman. I think it's pretty clear that when I said non-committal and turtle back to back before "style," I'm referring to style, not guard cancels. I mean, it's literally right there, in what you quoted lol. Where do you see me referring to "guard cancels" in that sentence? Not my fault you apparently don't know how to read. You're right. Daisuke may not have actually said "non-committal," but he did go so far as to say she was a turtle character, and if you're actually going to sit here and argue that turtling isn't a low commitment style then... I don't know what to tell you. As I said, I'm done arguing, but don't misrepresent my argument.

    It's pretty clear in that article that Daisuke said that he didn't want Baiken to play as defensively and play more offensively. Which if people are complaining about why guard cancels are less powerful or require too much more of a read to utilize, what Daisuke said probably has something to do with it. Safe to say that her current gameplay is designed around the changes to force her to be more engaging and less counter attack focused.

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  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 23,787
    What is stupid is people passing their preferences as facts, it is fucking sad.
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  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 82
    Psaro wrote: »
    Nice strawman. I think it's pretty clear that when I said non-committal and turtle back to back before "style," I'm referring to style, not guard cancels. I mean, it's literally right there, in what you quoted lol. Where do you see me referring to "guard cancels" in that sentence? Not my fault you apparently don't know how to read. You're right. Daisuke may not have actually said "non-committal," but he did go so far as to say she was a turtle character, and if you're actually going to sit here and argue that turtling isn't a low commitment style then... I don't know what to tell you. As I said, I'm done arguing, but don't misrepresent my argument.

    It's pretty clear in that article that Daisuke said that he didn't want Baiken to play as defensively and play more offensively. Which if people are complaining about why guard cancels are less powerful or require too much more of a read to utilize, what Daisuke said probably has something to do with it. Safe to say that her current gameplay is designed around the changes to force her to be more engaging and less counter attack focused.

    This was pretty much my point. Never did I say guard cancels were non-committal. A character can have a turtle style and yet still have high commit options. Case in point: Guile Flash Kick. I was only paraphrasing what Daisuke said. Which, as you say, is that he didn't like Baiken's overtly defensive style and wanted to move her to a more active style.
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    Psaro wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    The point is that no one had a fun time dealing with that shit.

    Does anyone have fun dealing with other characters bullshit? Do you have fun dealing with Jack-Os minions or Chipp's teleports? People complain for days about both those characters. You really can't judge a mechanic's worth by what people losing to it say.

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC), then we should add more nonsense because, well, why the fuck not, basically. I don't think I have to explain why that's a pretty terrible design and balancing philosophy. You wouldn't ease the pain of a wound by pouring salt on it, after all. If we're going to put bullshit in the game, then let's make sure that the bullshit serves an actual purpose and not "just because." GCs no longer do, imo, because I firmly believe that Baiken can be the defensive juggernaut she's always been without them. If you feel that she deserves them and can't be who she is without them, then fine, agree to disagree, but if memory serves me correctly you even admitted earlier that she doesn't truly need them.

    You're right I did say I don't think she truly needs them to be good, I just thought your argument for their removal was ridiculous.

  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 82
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited August 4
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.

    I mean, to me it is kind of irrelevant why he feels strong (whether it is because he got buffed or because others got nerfed), the fact of the matter is he is way too good in this iteration. Using history as an indication, Rev1 Millia was apparently considered too strong, but how is Chipp really different than her? He trades slightly worse conversions for better buttons, better neutral, better damage, and 2 of the game's best YRCs. Gamma Beast needs to go, I don't think anyone disputes that, and most likely it made it in to the game as a mistake. However, imo, he is still the best character in the game with that removed, so I think some other changes need to be discussed as well.

    I also think that K Teleport puts other YRC options like SE and Rensen to shame. SE and Rensen are strong, just do it options that don't require a lot of commitment and give Ky/Axl advantage in neutral/pressure, but K teleport is the lowest commitment and biggest reward of any of them. It will literally whiff punish basically any move in the game, and allows Chipp to get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. This is amplified by the fact that Chipp is, imo, undoubtedly the most meter efficient character in the game. As it stands right now, he can basically just save all of his meter for K Teleport/Gamma YRC, and then if he happens to get you in the corner he will build enough for his Kunai super (aka the game over super). Stuff like SE and Hammerfall YRC, is definitely really good, but imo it's just a stronger version of an old beast, K teleport yrc is an entirely new animal, that has no place in the game

    Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game, and then run mix up on them until they are dead. It's an interesting archetype but as it stands right now, K Teleport will do literally all the work for you as long as you have 25 meter. I firmly believe that if you fixed Gamma Beast and made K Teleport PRC, you would still be looking at a really strong, albeit way more fair character
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 82
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.

    I mean, to me it is kind of irrelevant why he feels strong (whether it is because he got buffed or because others got nerfed), the fact of the matter is he is way too good in this iteration. Using history as an indication, Rev1 Millia was apparently considered too strong, but how is Chipp really different than her? He trades slightly worse conversions for better buttons, better neutral, better damage, and 2 of the game's best YRCs. Gamma Beast needs to go, I don't think anyone disputes that, and most likely it made it in to the game as a mistake. However, imo, he is still the best character in the game with that removed, so I think some other changes need to be discussed as well.

    I also think that K Teleport puts other YRC options like SE and Rensen to shame. SE and Rensen are strong, just do it options that don't require a lot of commitment and give Ky/Axl advantage in neutral/pressure, but K teleport is the lowest commitment and biggest reward of any of them. It will literally whiff punish basically any move in the game, and allows Chipp to get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. This is amplified by the fact that Chipp is, imo, undoubtedly the most meter efficient character in the game. As it stands right now, he can basically just save all of his meter for K Teleport/Gamma YRC, and then if he happens to get you in the corner he will build enough for his Kunai super (aka the game over super).

    Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game, and then run mix up on them until they are dead. It's an interesting archetype but as it stands right now, K Teleport will do literally all the work for you as long as you have 25 meter. I firmly believe that if you fixed Gamma Beast and made K Teleport PRC, you would still be looking at a really strong, albeit way more fair character

    Well, I mean, sure, it really doesn't matter why a character feels strong, but really what I'm getting at there is that this is one of those cases, imo, where a character ends up being top tier sort of by default; that is, because other characters are not as good, rather than because they are that good themselves. That's the thing; I may be wrong, but I don't see Chipp as a major problem character. Another way of putting this is that I don't believe Rev2 Chipp is any stronger than Rev1 top tiers. In fact I feel that outside of Gamma Beast, Rev2 Chipp is the most balanced of all the top tiers Xrd has had up to this point. I get the feeling though that just how good Chipp really is is a subject that we just won't see eye to eye on, so I'm willing to concede this point and agree to disagree.

    I personally don't agree with the notion that "if Gamma Beast goes, he's still the best, so more changes are needed." At the end of the day, someone has to be the best character, so I don't see that as a compelling reason to further nerf him if he's not unbalanced enough to warrant it. Like I said, I do agree that some other tweaks could be justified, but personally - and I think a lot of people would support this - I would rather see other characters brought up to be closer to his level.

    Also, I think that you are overrating K Teleport YRC, to an extent. I've seen plenty of high level Chipp matches, and I can tell you that "K Teleport will do literally all the work" is not representative of what's happening in those matches. If anything, I'm seeing way more Gamma YRC than K Teleport YRC. That's the thing, I think. K Teleport YRC is obviously immensely strong; as you point out, it allows him to whiff punish the world, and it turns the air into lava. There's no hitbox attached, though. Other YRC options like SE, Rensen, and Gamma allow you to claim an entire portion of the screen and immediately take control of the pace of the match. K Teleport is an insanely powerful movement option, but I'm still skeptical that it's just flat out better than everything else when it doesn't even do the same things as other options. I'm just not seeing top Chipps default to it that way. You are more than welcome to present evidence to the contrary though.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    edited August 4
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.

    I mean, to me it is kind of irrelevant why he feels strong (whether it is because he got buffed or because others got nerfed), the fact of the matter is he is way too good in this iteration. Using history as an indication, Rev1 Millia was apparently considered too strong, but how is Chipp really different than her? He trades slightly worse conversions for better buttons, better neutral, better damage, and 2 of the game's best YRCs. Gamma Beast needs to go, I don't think anyone disputes that, and most likely it made it in to the game as a mistake. However, imo, he is still the best character in the game with that removed, so I think some other changes need to be discussed as well.

    I also think that K Teleport puts other YRC options like SE and Rensen to shame. SE and Rensen are strong, just do it options that don't require a lot of commitment and give Ky/Axl advantage in neutral/pressure, but K teleport is the lowest commitment and biggest reward of any of them. It will literally whiff punish basically any move in the game, and allows Chipp to get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. This is amplified by the fact that Chipp is, imo, undoubtedly the most meter efficient character in the game. As it stands right now, he can basically just save all of his meter for K Teleport/Gamma YRC, and then if he happens to get you in the corner he will build enough for his Kunai super (aka the game over super).

    Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game, and then run mix up on them until they are dead. It's an interesting archetype but as it stands right now, K Teleport will do literally all the work for you as long as you have 25 meter. I firmly believe that if you fixed Gamma Beast and made K Teleport PRC, you would still be looking at a really strong, albeit way more fair character

    Well, I mean, sure, it really doesn't matter why a character feels strong, but really what I'm getting at there is that this is one of those cases, imo, where a character ends up being top tier sort of by default; that is, because other characters are not as good, rather than because they are that good themselves. That's the thing; I may be wrong, but I don't see Chipp as a major problem character. Another way of putting this is that I don't believe Rev2 Chipp is any stronger than Rev1 top tiers. In fact I feel that outside of Gamma Beast, Rev2 Chipp is the most balanced of all the top tiers Xrd has had up to this point. I get the feeling though that just how good Chipp really is is a subject that we just won't see eye to eye on, so I'm willing to concede this point and agree to disagree.

    I personally don't agree with the notion that "if Gamma Beast goes, he's still the best, so more changes are needed." At the end of the day, someone has to be the best character, so I don't see that as a compelling reason to further nerf him if he's not unbalanced enough to warrant it. Like I said, I do agree that some other tweaks could be justified, but personally - and I think a lot of people would support this - I would rather see other characters brought up to be closer to his level.

    Also, I think that you are overrating K Teleport YRC, to an extent. I've seen plenty of high level Chipp matches, and I can tell you that "K Teleport will do literally all the work" is not representative of what's happening in those matches. If anything, I'm seeing way more Gamma YRC than K Teleport YRC. That's the thing, I think. K Teleport YRC is obviously immensely strong; as you point out, it allows him to whiff punish the world, and it turns the air into lava. There's no hitbox attached, though. Other YRC options like SE, Rensen, and Gamma allow you to claim an entire portion of the screen and immediately take control of the pace of the match. K Teleport is an insanely powerful movement option, but I'm still skeptical that it's just flat out better than everything else when it doesn't even do the same things as other options. I'm just not seeing top Chipps default to it that way. You are more than welcome to present evidence to the contrary though.
    Imo he is unbalanced though. The only real weakness he has in Xrd is that he has low health. You absolutely cannot call him a low damage character anymore, his mixup is insanely strong in the corner, and with 25 meter he controls nearly the entire screen. AC Chipp, and maybe to a lesser extent ACR Chipp was a fair character (or at least, worse than rev2 chipp imo) because he had a lot of really strong tools (although nothing nearly as strong as Gamma Beast or teleport yrc) but did low damage and took lots of damage. That's just not the case anymore though. He isn't working as designed imo because of how strong his YRC options are.

    I guess you can say "just bring other people to his level", but I don't think the existence of something as dumb as teleport yrc means we should give other characters a bunch of dumb shit too. I suppose we will agree to disagree there.

    Speaking to your last point, I think you are seeing more gamma yrc than k teleport yrc because gamma beast is broken, but that doesn't mean k teleport isn't absurdly good. What that means is that Chipp now has the two best yrc options in the game. Sure, there isn't a hitbox attached to it, but it gives a character with immensely good close range buttons a free way in for 25 meter, and once he gets in, he has always been a character that can carry that momentum all the way to victory; which is why it's really silly that he has that tool.

    Like I said before, Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game through whiff punishing and insane movement options. However, a tool like teleport yrc means he gets to whiff punish anything AND get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. It requires no commitment, gives huge reward, it just doesn't belong in the game. Stuff like SE Yrc is amazing, during pressure you just have to hold it and it gives Ky auto advantage in neutral (although it doesn't give him a free in from anywhere on the screen like teleport), but K teleport is better for Chipp because it whiff punishes everything and puts him exactly where he wants to be, he just needs to spend 25 meter. I also really disagree that top Chipp players dont default to it; it's probably the strongest tool in the game, and players definitely use it (why wouldn't you?)

    Post edited by drunkards_walk on
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    Chipp feels like he is in a good spot to me. The gamma blade buff could maybe be reverted, but other than that I think he is where he needs to be. They just need to buff the lower tier characters. I really don't think they're are a whole lot of nerfs that should be doled out to any of the top tiers.
  • jblairjblair Joined: Posts: 1,450
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Well imo, he's always been a character with insanely strong tools (DP, 3f normal, great fast normals, etc), but in the past he's never had (or needed) anything as immensely powerful as K Teleport YRC or Gamma Beast. Those are the things making him too good. If I told you I was creating a character that was so strong up close that, given the right opportunity, he can carry that momentum to a win and I was also giving him a YRC'able projectile that best case scenario hits/trades for a full combo+kd or worst case is +5 on block and was also giving him a teleport that recovers almost instantly right next to the opponent ready to attack, you would think I was making a Mugen game.

    I'm sorry, but K teleport yrc is so garbage. It's honestly one of the dumber things I've ever seen in a fighting game. I just hope with them fixing some YRC issues going from Rev1 to Rev2 they will also start to look at some problem moves as well, and k teleport is the biggest offender
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,664
    I've been grinding in GGxrdR2 for the past few days now with Baiken(yes another person playing Baiken) and for me the hardest thing about her executionally is not the combos. It's the the IAD Tatami and doing this post knockdown. After a throw, small dash, IAD Tatami, getting a j.D knockdown, AD, land, IAD Tatami. I can get Kire Tatami (TK Tatami + airdash)on p1 side around 95% of the time with ease, on p2 side i struggle.

    The IAD Tatami requires so many inputs in the same direction it's messing me up espeially when you have to do action before it such as a small dash, it becomes like 66, 96, 236+k. I've always been terrible at inputs requiring many inputs towards one direction, something as dash like inputs.

    It's really hurting me as i cannot get a flow going if i keep dropping these IAD Tatami's post knockdown midscreen. I might have to relearn how i hold my joystick or input dash command or airdashes. I cannot get a solid grip fast enough to input complex motions after an airdash. If i see one more iad j.k i'm gonna rage lol.
    GGXrdR2: Jam, Baiken
    T7:  Jin
    SFV: Juri
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  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 22,060
    I just think Baiken needs better Tatami right now. Sol can 6HS right through it.
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  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?
  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 82
    edited August 5
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »
    Psaro wrote: »

    Do people have fun getting caught in someone else's bullshit and losing? Obviously not, but it sounds like you're basically implying that because nonsense exists in the game already (for the record I'm not saying Chipp teleports are nonsense, at least not until he gets to YRC them, and even then you don't see Chipp winning games because of teleport YRC),


    I was with you up until this. That's just wrong, K teleport YRC is, imo, the strongest tool in the game (maybe second to Gamma YRC). It requires no commitment whatsoever and is massively rewarding to Chipp, it can literally win him matches. I'm kind of glad you mentioned this, because I came here to talk about possibilities for balancing Chipp (because, let's be honest, this character is pretty dumb right now; imo he's the only character that is too strong in this iteration). I have two ideas. First (and my preferred option) would be to make K teleport PRC only, and fix Gamma YRC. The second idea would be a damage nerf, because right now, with all the tools he has and how amazing his corner mixup is, his damage is really high. I would only do one or the other, but, like I said, I prefer number one.

    I'm open to being convinced on this, but for now I think Chipp feeling so strong in this version has less to do with him and more to do with the characters around him being nerfed while he actually got some buffs. He was already a fantastic character, and didn't need some of those changes. That said, the only thing I feel strongly about in regards to Rev2 Chipp is that Gamma Blade basically being turned into Testament's forward EXEBeast was a horrible idea and should probably be reverted. He doesn't need it, and Chipp being able to just throw it out and possibly get a combo off of it even if he gets clipped during startup just looks and feels really stupid.

    You're right about K Teleport YRC being ridiculously strong, but I think it's okay for him to have it given the meter cost and the associated hit he takes to his Tension Pulse for using it. Plus he bleeds extremely hard, so having a metered low commit option is understandable and acceptable, imo. I don't know; I wouldn't say that K Teleport YRC is "fair," but I think that the alternative of 50 meter for K Teleport PRC + the TP hit is too steep a price, especially if we're letting other really strong YRC options like Stun Edge or Zweihander YRC rock, but at that point we may as well start discussing if YRC in general should be nerfed (I think there are some merits to that idea, but I digress). If I were to touch anything else about the character, I may tune some proration values to slightly lower damage on some hits or maybe ever so slightly tweak some of his hurtboxes; his j.D, for example, comes to mind, though it's a difficult balance to make since the button is designed to be anti-anti-air. Overall, I don't think Chipp is in an egregiously bad place in this game, and I say that as a Zato player. Get rid of Gamma Beast, maybe some other tweaks, and he'll be fine.

    I mean, to me it is kind of irrelevant why he feels strong (whether it is because he got buffed or because others got nerfed), the fact of the matter is he is way too good in this iteration. Using history as an indication, Rev1 Millia was apparently considered too strong, but how is Chipp really different than her? He trades slightly worse conversions for better buttons, better neutral, better damage, and 2 of the game's best YRCs. Gamma Beast needs to go, I don't think anyone disputes that, and most likely it made it in to the game as a mistake. However, imo, he is still the best character in the game with that removed, so I think some other changes need to be discussed as well.

    I also think that K Teleport puts other YRC options like SE and Rensen to shame. SE and Rensen are strong, just do it options that don't require a lot of commitment and give Ky/Axl advantage in neutral/pressure, but K teleport is the lowest commitment and biggest reward of any of them. It will literally whiff punish basically any move in the game, and allows Chipp to get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. This is amplified by the fact that Chipp is, imo, undoubtedly the most meter efficient character in the game. As it stands right now, he can basically just save all of his meter for K Teleport/Gamma YRC, and then if he happens to get you in the corner he will build enough for his Kunai super (aka the game over super).

    Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game, and then run mix up on them until they are dead. It's an interesting archetype but as it stands right now, K Teleport will do literally all the work for you as long as you have 25 meter. I firmly believe that if you fixed Gamma Beast and made K Teleport PRC, you would still be looking at a really strong, albeit way more fair character

    Well, I mean, sure, it really doesn't matter why a character feels strong, but really what I'm getting at there is that this is one of those cases, imo, where a character ends up being top tier sort of by default; that is, because other characters are not as good, rather than because they are that good themselves. That's the thing; I may be wrong, but I don't see Chipp as a major problem character. Another way of putting this is that I don't believe Rev2 Chipp is any stronger than Rev1 top tiers. In fact I feel that outside of Gamma Beast, Rev2 Chipp is the most balanced of all the top tiers Xrd has had up to this point. I get the feeling though that just how good Chipp really is is a subject that we just won't see eye to eye on, so I'm willing to concede this point and agree to disagree.

    I personally don't agree with the notion that "if Gamma Beast goes, he's still the best, so more changes are needed." At the end of the day, someone has to be the best character, so I don't see that as a compelling reason to further nerf him if he's not unbalanced enough to warrant it. Like I said, I do agree that some other tweaks could be justified, but personally - and I think a lot of people would support this - I would rather see other characters brought up to be closer to his level.

    Also, I think that you are overrating K Teleport YRC, to an extent. I've seen plenty of high level Chipp matches, and I can tell you that "K Teleport will do literally all the work" is not representative of what's happening in those matches. If anything, I'm seeing way more Gamma YRC than K Teleport YRC. That's the thing, I think. K Teleport YRC is obviously immensely strong; as you point out, it allows him to whiff punish the world, and it turns the air into lava. There's no hitbox attached, though. Other YRC options like SE, Rensen, and Gamma allow you to claim an entire portion of the screen and immediately take control of the pace of the match. K Teleport is an insanely powerful movement option, but I'm still skeptical that it's just flat out better than everything else when it doesn't even do the same things as other options. I'm just not seeing top Chipps default to it that way. You are more than welcome to present evidence to the contrary though.
    Imo he is unbalanced though. The only real weakness he has in Xrd is that he has low health. You absolutely cannot call him a low damage character anymore, his mixup is insanely strong in the corner, and with 25 meter he controls nearly the entire screen. AC Chipp, and maybe to a lesser extent ACR Chipp was a fair character (or at least, worse than rev2 chipp imo) because he had a lot of really strong tools (although nothing nearly as strong as Gamma Beast or teleport yrc) but did low damage and took lots of damage. That's just not the case anymore though. He isn't working as designed imo because of how strong his YRC options are.

    I guess you can say "just bring other people to his level", but I don't think the existence of something as dumb as teleport yrc means we should give other characters a bunch of dumb shit too. I suppose we will agree to disagree there.

    Speaking to your last point, I think you are seeing more gamma yrc than k teleport yrc because gamma beast is broken, but that doesn't mean k teleport isn't absurdly good. What that means is that Chipp now has the two best yrc options in the game. Sure, there isn't a hitbox attached to it, but it gives a character with immensely good close range buttons a free way in for 25 meter, and once he gets in, he has always been a character that can carry that momentum all the way to victory; which is why it's really silly that he has that tool.

    Like I said before, Chipp's entire game is to disrupt the opponents neutral game through whiff punishing and insane movement options. However, a tool like teleport yrc means he gets to whiff punish anything AND get exactly where he wants to be for 25 meter. It requires no commitment, gives huge reward, it just doesn't belong in the game. Stuff like SE Yrc is amazing, during pressure you just have to hold it and it gives Ky auto advantage in neutral (although it doesn't give him a free in from anywhere on the screen like teleport), but K teleport is better for Chipp because it whiff punishes everything and puts him exactly where he wants to be, he just needs to spend 25 meter. I also really disagree that top Chipp players dont default to it; it's probably the strongest tool in the game, and players definitely use it (why wouldn't you?)

    I was curious about this, so I actually did a little bit of research. I went back to watch some matches of Samitto Chipp to see how often he actually used K Teleport YRC. To make sure Gamma Beast wasn't an issue, I made it a point to watch matches from Rev1. In roughly 18 minutes of matches, which amounted to 5 best 3-out-of-5 matches, I saw K Teleport YRC a grand total of 5 times. Those matches were against Raven, Venom, Elphelt, Venom again, and Ramlethal. He never used it at all against Raven or Ramlethal, used it once at the literal end of the entire match against Venom, twice against Elphelt, and twice against Venom the second time. Now, you can definitely argue "small sample size," but a.) I don't have that kind of time (you're welcome to put in time to find a counter-example) and b.) I'd have to say that in any case, if I were told that I had the best tool in the game, I would probably be using it more than once a whole match on average. The vast majority of Samitto's meter went towards neutral YRC, button YRC OS, Alpha Blade YRC, RCs, and Ryuuyanagi.

    Now, none of this is to say that K Teleport YRC isn't very strong, but when you say things like "it will literally do all the work" and "it's easily the best option in the game," I can't help but get the sense that we're dealing with a situation where once Chipp gets 25, you may as well just put down the controller because he's gonna K Teleport YRC every time, get in for free and run the setplay to death. That's why I said that I feel you are overrating it somewhat. You and I both know that at the highest levels of play, things are never that simple, and those matches I mentioned speak for themselves. In particular, Samitto seemed to be using K Teleport YRC on a read that he was going to get around something in neutral, and to create chaos and advantage in end-of-match scenarios where one or both characters are near death. Obviously it's a fairly low commit read, so yeah, you're right, why not use it, but you do have to spend meter for it, and accept that you won't build as much meter after using it (people sometimes say that due to the Tension Pulse hit, a YRC costs more like 40% meter overall, rather than a flat 25%), and I think Chipp would really love to keep his meter for Ryuuyanagi. Plus, you're relying on your opponent whiffing something to get tangible reward, whereas something like SE or Rensen or Zwei YRC just immediately claims space for you. Chipp can use it to get closer with the added benefit of YRC's faux frame advantage, but the following offense is by no means guaranteed. Hell, in those matches, it felt like Samitto was whiff punishing more things with no-YRC-H-Teleport than with K Teleport YRC.

    The conclusion I draw from all this is that K Teleport YRC is really just an easy scapegoat for a broader issue (that you actually hinted at yourself when you said he has the two best YRCs) which is that Chipp with YRC in general is ridiculous. At that point though I think it comes back to discussing whether YRC needs to be changed. They're never going to get rid of the slow down, but one has to wonder if it's really necessary for YRC to eat inputs and have partial invulnerability as well.

    As for the part about bringing people up to his level, I'm not condoning giving characters ridiculous shit because why not. All I mean is that I'd rather see weaker characters brought up, within reason, instead of strong characters being nerfed if their balance doesn't warrant it. I don't think Chipp is egregiously unbalanced, just maybe a little strong in a game where everyone else got weaker. That's all. I gave my suggestions for changes in an earlier post and I stand by them. Get rid of Gamma Beast, and maybe tune down his damage in some places by tuning proration values, and maybe make some of his buttons a bit easier to deal with for everyone else by retuning some hurtboxes/hitboxes. He's not in need of a huge tear down. I understand that you believe he is unbalanced, and make no mistake, I definitely see merits in that idea; he does so many things outstandingly well, and sometimes, as you said, it seems like his only true flaw is that if he gets hit he dies. However, with the exception of Gamma Beast, this is pretty much what Chipp has been throughout Xrd, and no one's been calling for his head up till now. If you want to argue that this is only because there were worse offenders in the older iterations, and now that all the others have been tuned down, we've finally been exposed to just how dumb Chipp is, then I'll see your point and just agree to disagree. I just don't see him as a world beater like say, SIGN Elphelt or vanilla Revelator Johnny.
    Post edited by Psaro on
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 22,060
    Teleport YRC is dumb as shit.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • jblairjblair Joined: Posts: 1,450
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?

    is this like some kind of affirmative action argument or
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    edited August 6
    jblair wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?

    is this like some kind of affirmative action argument or

    No, just shocked by how stupid your claim was that Chipp now overrides one of the best characters in the game.

    I didn't mean to suggest that Chipp should be made stronger than Millia because she has been S tier until now, but rather that it is absurd to think that Chipp now invalidates her as a character. Millia still has god like neutral and oki and her neutral game especially excels in areas where Chipp's does not.

  • jblairjblair Joined: Posts: 1,450
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?

    is this like some kind of affirmative action argument or

    No, just shocked by how stupid your claim was that Chipp now overrides one of the best characters in the game.

    I didn't mean to suggest that Chipp should be made stronger than Millia because she has been S tier until now, but rather that it is absurd to think that Chipp now invalidates her as a character. Millia still has god like neutral and oki and her neutral game especially excels in areas where Chipp's does not.

    Well, I'd say that chipp's neutral is pretty damn close to being as good as millia WITH pin, and his oki is 70% as good as millia ONLY in the corner, and his pressure is definitely much better.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    jblair wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Chipp got a single significant buff and now he's suddenly overriding Millia as a character? Millia who has been S tier up until this point in the game's life?

    is this like some kind of affirmative action argument or

    No, just shocked by how stupid your claim was that Chipp now overrides one of the best characters in the game.

    I didn't mean to suggest that Chipp should be made stronger than Millia because she has been S tier until now, but rather that it is absurd to think that Chipp now invalidates her as a character. Millia still has god like neutral and oki and her neutral game especially excels in areas where Chipp's does not.

    Well, I'd say that chipp's neutral is pretty damn close to being as good as millia WITH pin, and his oki is 70% as good as millia ONLY in the corner, and his pressure is definitely much better.

    His corner oki is way better, it's just that his midscreen oki is much worse
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    Also Chipp's neutral has always been better than Millia's imo. That's not to say that Millia's is somehow bad, it's just that Chipp's is absurdly strong.

    Also, speaking to Psaro's point about how Samitto "only" used k teleport yrc 5 times in 5 matches. I think that it is not great of an argument for a number of reasons. For starters, it's not something that you typically need to use numerous times because using it once is typically enough to gain control of the match. Also, the argument doesn't make sense because of how Chipp fights by nature. If the opponent gets hit at round start, Chipp can literally carry that momentum to a perfect on occasion, would it be fair to count a round like that? There are just too many factors to consider before we could really accept an argument like that. The bottom line, imo, is that Chipp would still be really really strong without Gamma Beast and with k teleport as prc only, but he would also be more balanced
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,125 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Chipp is obv better than Milia now.

    Milia got a MASSIVE nerf to her play style. That matters because while yeah you do have other options, none of them were as strong as her knockdown oki game.
    Raz0r wrote: »
    I love punk's posting style. Those emotes are hilarious.
  • DangerOnTheRangerDangerOnTheRanger based TvC god Joined: Posts: 298
    Speaking of nerfs, what's up with the east talking about Zato being worse with the new changes? The proximity guard change on 22S/H doesn't seem that bad, and the new puddle-generating properties seem like a plus to me. What happened?
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  • PsaroPsaro Joined: Posts: 82
    edited August 10
    Also Chipp's neutral has always been better than Millia's imo. That's not to say that Millia's is somehow bad, it's just that Chipp's is absurdly strong.

    Also, speaking to Psaro's point about how Samitto "only" used k teleport yrc 5 times in 5 matches. I think that it is not great of an argument for a number of reasons. For starters, it's not something that you typically need to use numerous times because using it once is typically enough to gain control of the match. Also, the argument doesn't make sense because of how Chipp fights by nature. If the opponent gets hit at round start, Chipp can literally carry that momentum to a perfect on occasion, would it be fair to count a round like that? There are just too many factors to consider before we could really accept an argument like that. The bottom line, imo, is that Chipp would still be really really strong without Gamma Beast and with k teleport as prc only, but he would also be more balanced

    I get your point, but, imo, you seem to be fixating too much on the number, when I also mentioned several other more substantive things about Samitto's overall meter usage. Again, he literally never used it at all against Raven or Ramlethal, and he basically never used it against Venom the first match, except one time at the very end, and it's not like Samitto was in constant control of those matches running triple perfects. How do you explain that? If Samitto could use K Teleport YRC to just win those matches outright, then why was the vast majority of his meter going towards other options? Like I said, I'm not going to disagree that it's really strong, but as I implied in that last post, saying that K Teleport YRC will do all the work is a pretty bold claim. When the evidence seems to disagree, I think it takes more than a negative argument like this to prove your case. I'm ready to agree to disagree though, as I get the feeling that we just see things differently on this issue; the general idea you're getting at in this post isn't wrong, I just think K Teleport YRC is a symptom of a larger issue, which is that YRC in general and YRC with Chipp in particular are pretty strong. It's one of many powerful YRC options in the game, and I'd be willing to let it rock if other elements of Chipp's game are addressed appropriately or if YRC in general is toned down.
    Speaking of nerfs, what's up with the east talking about Zato being worse with the new changes? The proximity guard change on 22S/H doesn't seem that bad, and the new puddle-generating properties seem like a plus to me. What happened?

    Proximity on drills is not the only nerf Zato got, and it's relatively insignificant either way, as you said. Drills were also changed to be 0 on block, as opposed to +2, which is a pretty significant nerf to his stalling game. They also nerfed unsummon recovery pretty hard, which primarily has the effect of making Nobiru unsummon less plus on block. I believe testing has shown that Nobiru unsummon is now at best +4 on regular block (0 on IB), if the unsummon is timed perfectly, which it won't always be. It's not the worst thing in the world, but now, he can't just get you to block something in neutral or during pressure, and then Nobiru unsummon to get enough frame advantage to reset pressure while also replenishing Eddie meter. It's a strategy that can still be implemented, but isn't as effective, as the opponent should have more effective escapes. So now, a lot of times, you have to forego the unsummon and just try to run a mixup with whatever meter you have left. Basically, they want Zato to commit to running a mixup instead of doing seemingly infinite blockstrings. In that light, it's not necessarily an unjustified nerf, but it is a pretty hard nerf nonetheless and the additional unsummon recovery hurts him in neutral as well of course, since it makes unsummoning a bit easier to punish. These two things led Ogawa to declare the character "dead." Though keep in mind that Ogawa tends to exaggerate things quite a bit sometimes.

    The only move that generates a puddle in addition to drills now is Eddie -H-, which is only situationally useful. Even then, part of its usefulness was that that particular puddle couldn't be destroyed, which apparently was a bug that was removed in the most recent patch that dropped a couple of days ago. Really, the best buffs Zato got in Rev2 are j.D wall bouncing in the corner on CH and a slight hurtbox buff to his 6P, which was unrecorded in the change notes.

    As for the East's perception of the character, there have been some JP players who have always looked at Zato in a negative light in Xrd, even back in his heyday in SIGN. Some outright said that the only reason Zato was considered top tier was because of Ogawa. Nowadays though, Ogawa isn't as dominant as he was, in part due to Zato's nerfs, in part due to the new characters in Xrd either being stronger or being difficult matches for Zato (Jack-O' is easily his worst matchup) or both, in part due to other players getting better at fighting the character in Xrd, and maybe in part due to Ogawa himself just having some struggles. With that in mind, and given Ogawa himself saying that Zato is basically trash in this game, it's not a surprise that people over there are going to be down on the character. Let's also not forget that one of Zato's hardest matchups, Chipp, is currently on top of the cast in this version.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    Psaro wrote: »
    Also Chipp's neutral has always been better than Millia's imo. That's not to say that Millia's is somehow bad, it's just that Chipp's is absurdly strong.

    Also, speaking to Psaro's point about how Samitto "only" used k teleport yrc 5 times in 5 matches. I think that it is not great of an argument for a number of reasons. For starters, it's not something that you typically need to use numerous times because using it once is typically enough to gain control of the match. Also, the argument doesn't make sense because of how Chipp fights by nature. If the opponent gets hit at round start, Chipp can literally carry that momentum to a perfect on occasion, would it be fair to count a round like that? There are just too many factors to consider before we could really accept an argument like that. The bottom line, imo, is that Chipp would still be really really strong without Gamma Beast and with k teleport as prc only, but he would also be more balanced

    I get your point, but, imo, you seem to be fixating too much on the number, when I also mentioned several other more substantive things about Samitto's overall meter usage. Again, he literally never used it at all against Raven or Ramlethal, and he basically never used it against Venom the first match, except one time at the very end, and it's not like Samitto was in constant control of those matches running triple perfects. How do you explain that? If Samitto could use K Teleport YRC to just win those matches outright, then why was the vast majority of his meter going towards other options? Like I said, I'm not going to disagree that it's really strong, but as I implied in that last post, saying that K Teleport YRC will do all the work is a pretty bold claim. When the evidence seems to disagree, I think it takes more than a negative argument like this to prove your case. I'm ready to agree to disagree though, as I get the feeling that we just see things differently on this issue; the general idea you're getting at in this post isn't wrong, I just think K Teleport YRC is a symptom of a larger issue, which is that YRC in general and YRC with Chipp in particular are pretty strong. It's one of many powerful YRC options in the game, and I'd be willing to let it rock if other elements of Chipp's game are addressed appropriately or if YRC in general is toned down

    I definitely agree that YRC is really strong. However, I take the opposite view when it comes to balancing it. The reason I suggested making k teleport prc only/remove gamma beast is because, imo, it would make Chipp less dumb, but it would also still leave him a lot of really powerful tools. I don't think the same can necessarily be said of other characters.

    Ky for instance, SE YRC is extremely strong, and imo it single-handedly takes him from solid character to great character. It is however a crucial part of his game and changing it up would hurt him a fair bit (the same could be said of Axl and Rensen YRC or Pot and Hammerfall YRC).

    The opposite is true for Chipp imo. He has a ton of really strong tools, arguably the strongest toolset in the game, and then to top it off he has the 2 best yrc options as well. In conclusion, it's just unnecessary for him to have all that. He would still be a very strong character without it, while I don't think others could necessarily say the same.
  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 23,787
    jblair wrote: »
    Imo the big problem is that chipp's secondary strengths are overriding most character's main strengths. Why play jam or millia when you can have chipp rival jam's normals and millia's oki. I know it's not that black and white, but seriously, chipp is way too strong in way too many areas.

    Well imo, he's always been a character with insanely strong tools (DP, 3f normal, great fast normals, etc), but in the past he's never had (or needed) anything as immensely powerful as K Teleport YRC or Gamma Beast. Those are the things making him too good. If I told you I was creating a character that was so strong up close that, given the right opportunity, he can carry that momentum to a win and I was also giving him a YRC'able projectile that best case scenario hits/trades for a full combo+kd or worst case is +5 on block and was also giving him a teleport that recovers almost instantly right next to the opponent ready to attack, you would think I was making a Mugen game.

    I'm sorry, but K teleport yrc is so garbage. It's honestly one of the dumber things I've ever seen in a fighting game. I just hope with them fixing some YRC issues going from Rev1 to Rev2 they will also start to look at some problem moves as well, and k teleport is the biggest offender


    I miss doing that shit :rofl:
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    ( •_•)>⌐■-■
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    YEAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!
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  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    I've personally always felt that YRCs should have been handled like FRCs were and that only certain things should be YRC-able.
  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 23,787
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    I've personally always felt that YRCs should have been handled like FRCs were and that only certain things should be YRC-able.

    Then it would defeat the whole idea of making it a new accessible alternative to FRC's
    Plus, there are already moves that can't be YRC/PRC
    ( •_•) IT'S NOT RAPE,
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■
    IT'S SURPRISE SEX! (⌐■_■)
    YEAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!
    "Orgasm is a simile for the emotional epiphany a woman has when the shame of penetration is eclipsed by the inherent virtue of servicing a man." ~ Kromo.
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  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,291
    Hecatom wrote: »
    Tetsuro wrote: »
    I've personally always felt that YRCs should have been handled like FRCs were and that only certain things should be YRC-able.

    Then it would defeat the whole idea of making it a new accessible alternative to FRC's
    Plus, there are already moves that can't be YRC/PRC

    Not really, there are some moves like uppercuts that can't be YRC'd. FRC's weren't accessible because a lot of them had 2f input windows and some only 1f (at least in AC not sure if any of them kept 1f timing in AC+R since chipp's teleport got adjusted to 2f in +R). 2f input windows in variable online lag are rough at times so YRC I think was meant to be more online friendly than anything.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,913 mod
    Although it could be an early reaction, it is troubling that someone who has been the best player of Zato since before a lot of us were playing fighting games competitively has declared him dead. He should know better than anyone really unless there is some new optimal style for him that comes up from someone else.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 23,787
    edited August 15
    Although it could be an early reaction, it is troubling that someone who has been the best player of Zato since before a lot of us were playing fighting games competitively has declared him dead. He should know better than anyone really unless there is some new optimal style for him that comes up from someone else.

    Is not the 1st time he does that, he did the same with GG Slash and GG Ac+R.
    He really gets salty when Zato isn't the best character on the game. At the slightless sing of strugle for Zato he starts bitching about it.
    ( •_•) IT'S NOT RAPE,
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■
    IT'S SURPRISE SEX! (⌐■_■)
    YEAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!
    "Orgasm is a simile for the emotional epiphany a woman has when the shame of penetration is eclipsed by the inherent virtue of servicing a man." ~ Kromo.
    ( •_•)
    ( ಠ_ಠ)
    ( ಥ_ಥ)
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