N Ken Thread

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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    Sanjuro_The_Ronin
    I know you asked Golden Gunman but I figured I'd give my 2 cents.

    If you're opp. throws a fireball, juice kick over it (use RH juice kick), connect with c.Strong xx Shoryu-Reppa. This is pretty easy to connect; even if they block the juice kick you can push them back with c.strong, c.foward, c.RH, hadouken. Of course you wouldn't want to use this on characters with a fast recovery. I really like to use this against Sagat (O.Sagat has fast recovery so I don't use it against him).

    Remember to only use the juice kick sparingly, unless you're certain you have near perfect execution (comes out 19/20 times).

    I've changed up my overall game plan once again in order to master Ken in a different way. Instead of basing my game around mix-ups, knee bash, and rush down tactics. I'm learning how to play defensively with Ken (in casual matches, not strictly playing to win); this has actually helped my offense because it allows me to see opportunities for attack that I had not previously seen i.e. I was too busy contemplating what the other player's options were before; and now I wait and see. Thought that might broaden some horizons.
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  • kev_the_bevkev_the_bev triumph. Joined: Posts: 421 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    why do a lot of people prefer O. Ken?
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    why do a lot of people prefer O. Ken?

    Better DP (more invincible frames
    Better Fireballs (beter speeds, faster recovery)
    No crazy kicks. (no "oops" shit I did not mean to do that....)

    He plays more into the traditional fire ball trap game the N.ken...

    I would not say he better (maybe a little worse) then N.Ken..But really, just different.

    .Fatboy
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Do the Super Turbo versions of the dragon bros even have invincibility frames on their dragons?

    I was under the impression that their dragons were just really high priority. (like Sagats TU)
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  • Sanjuro_The_RoninSanjuro_The_Ronin ST 4 life yo! Joined: Posts: 572
    Do the Super Turbo versions of the dragon bros even have invincibility frames on their dragons?

    I was under the impression that their dragons were just really high priority. (like Sagats TU)

    Both Ken and Ryu have invincibility frames on their jab DPs, hence why you see so many people using their jab DPs to let fireballs pass right through them.
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Both Ken and Ryu have invincibility frames on their jab DPs, hence why you see so many people using their jab DPs to let fireballs pass right through them.

    Is it confirmed anywhere they are invincible on their DP's? I ask because I know they can be kicked out of those DP's during the same points at which they can also pass through FB's.
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  • Sanjuro_The_RoninSanjuro_The_Ronin ST 4 life yo! Joined: Posts: 572
    Is it confirmed anywhere they are invincible on their DP's? I ask because I know they can be kicked out of those DP's during the same points at which they can also pass through FB's.

    While i'm not 100% about this but I think the information is confirmed in the YBH or on T.Akiba's page. If anyone who knows this stuff better then me can correct this then please do.
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    While i'm not 100% about this but I think the information is confirmed in the YBH or on T.Akiba's page. If anyone who knows this stuff better then me can correct this then please do.

    Maybe invincibility frames on new characters work different?

    For example if you put O Ken DP against new Ken DP O Ken wins clean, (no riding out period) as if N Ken had no invincibility. That leads me to believe N Ken doesn't actually have invincibility. (or perhaps he has a small amount of start up invincibility but after start up the move is just really high priority?)
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    Maybe invincibility frames on new characters work different?

    For example if you put O Ken DP against new Ken DP O Ken wins clean, (no riding out period) as if N Ken had no invincibility. That leads me to believe N Ken doesn't actually have invincibility. (or perhaps he has a small amount of start up invincibility but after start up the move is just really high priority?)

    Y.B.H. pgs. 8, and 14 Ryu has 8 frames of invincibility for Jab DP, as does Ken. These frames are complete invincibility frames i.e. nothing can hurt you. There's an additional 10 frames of invincibility but some moves will still hurt you (hit boxes). O. Ken might have more invincibility frames than N. Ken causing what you described.

    Hope this Helps.
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Y.B.H. pgs. 8, and 14 Ryu has 8 frames of invincibility for Jab DP, as does Ken. These frames are complete invincibility frames i.e. nothing can hurt you. There's an additional 10 frames of invincibility but some moves will still hurt you (hit boxes). O. Ken might have more invincibility frames than N. Ken causing what you described.

    Hope this Helps.

    That makes sense. A DP doesn't hit for 6 frames correct? So essentially new DP's are invincible for the startup where the old DP's where invincible for the entirety of the ascent.
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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    Multi hit Throw LIMIT

    I haven't found any data containing the precise number of Consecutive hits in a mult-hit throw for each character. Here's what I've done:
    N. Ken Knee Bash 12 hits avg. of 10 hits each time.
    Gief Stomach Crunch 9 hits; face crush 11 hits
    Blanka face bite 12 hits
    Boxer Headbutt 10 hits

    That's all I've tried and I'm wondering if a limit exists. This was tried on AE on dummy (opp. for each was Guile).

    The timing for the throws is the same for all characters. The most effective way is to focus on tapping back, foward as quickly as possible and focus on pressing short, foward, RH in that order as fast as possible. I found this technique works for me. I didn't find the answer to this question anywhere including the YBH (although I can't be 100% sure b/c I cannot read Japanese). I've even held the CPU in holds for up to 9-12 hits. It's easy once you get the timing down.

    I also understand that a Human Opp. will try and counter; it doesn't have much of an effect unless they also know the proper timing.

    If anyone knows the exact limits please post for each character.
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  • caliagent#3caliagent#3 Caliagent Bobblehead Joined: Posts: 4,189 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG

    I also understand that a Human Opp. will try and counter; it doesn't have much of an effect unless they also know the proper timing.

    If anyone knows the exact limits please post for each character.

    You mean counter mash the throw?? I just wiggle left to right and piano hk,hp,mp,lp,lk or hp,mp,lp depending on how my hand is positioned when i'm in a multi hit throw and i usually shake out in 2-3 hits.
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  • MariodoodMariodood You Cant Escape..O_o Joined: Posts: 1,458
    Hey, I'm just getting into ST, playing N.Ken because Knee Bash is awesome.

    I'm having trouble doing his hit confirm (shortshortsuper) I know the command, there was even one day when I had it down, but now I can't do it..I dunno, I just do short short nothing. What's the timing for cancelling into the super?

    Oh and about the Knee Bash..I was watching Mattsun, and after a knee bash, he seems to always do jumping short. I know that that's a good tick into knee bash, so my questions..

    What's a better tick, jumping short, walkup kneebash, or jumping short, crouching short, walkup kneebash?

    What else can you do with a jumping short?

    And finally, how easy is it to get out of kneebash ticks? Do you need to do reversal DP/counter throw or is it easier than that?

    Thanks in advance.
  • JoeMastersJoeMasters Awaken ! Joined: Posts: 452
    Hey, I'm just getting into ST, playing N.Ken because Knee Bash is awesome.

    I'm having trouble doing his hit confirm (shortshortsuper) I know the command, there was even one day when I had it down, but now I can't do it..I dunno, I just do short short nothing. What's the timing for cancelling into the super?

    Oh and about the Knee Bash..I was watching Mattsun, and after a knee bash, he seems to always do jumping short. I know that that's a good tick into knee bash, so my questions..

    What's a better tick, jumping short, walkup kneebash, or jumping short, crouching short, walkup kneebash?

    What else can you do with a jumping short?

    And finally, how easy is it to get out of kneebash ticks? Do you need to do reversal DP/counter throw or is it easier than that?

    Thanks in advance.

    For the super link question, are you whiffing jab?

    I never really use jumping short, I use jumping jab so you gotta ask others about that.

    I think it is all DP/CT but someone has to back me up on it. Im not a 100%
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  • Golden_GunmanGolden_Gunman Joined: Posts: 636
    Reversal move / throw is the only way to get out of any good tick throw setup in ST period. That's why Knee Bash is so good, it's often quite possible to win the round after landing one knee bash if you can mix-up well enough after it.

    Although you could always counter the tick as opposed to the throw if you think it's coming.
  • Footsy BebopFootsy Bebop Joined: Posts: 326
    How about N Ken's air hurricane kicks? There's one version of the air hurricane kick that has a really short arc and is great for getting next to your opponent in a hurry. Is there any trick to getting the short arc air hurricane kick out?
  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    I believe that's called the juice kick and I'm not sure what the trick is.
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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    How about N Ken's air hurricane kicks? There's one version of the air hurricane kick that has a really short arc and is great for getting next to your opponent in a hurry. Is there any trick to getting the short arc air hurricane kick out?

    Basically if you've ever played CvS2 then you should know what a short jump is. You can perform a tatsumaki kick while doing a short jump (there is no short jump in ST, however the timing is the same i.e. you can do a juice kick in CvS2), it's very fast and difficult to do at first. It's really easy once you get the motion down. All you need to remember is to never let your thumb (center of your thumb) leave neutral on the D-pad. As for using a J-stick it's much easier, you just need to get the motion down. Do NOT practice doing the 225 degree motion in reverse (example Fei Long's windmill kick or Sagat's Tiger Knee), it's faster to just tap up+towards and then QCB; this will also improve you're accuracy.
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  • JoeMastersJoeMasters Awaken ! Joined: Posts: 452
    I love that version of the AHK. I try to use his overhead for mix-ups after hisknee throw,j.jab ->AHK, or during a combo. I havent played much competitive ST yet. Is this an effective method, or is it easily countered?
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  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Hey, I'm just getting into ST, playing N.Ken because Knee Bash is awesome.

    I'm having trouble doing his hit confirm (shortshortsuper) I know the command, there was even one day when I had it down, but now I can't do it..I dunno, I just do short short nothing. What's the timing for cancelling into the super?

    Make sure you time the button presses so they are always the same length apart. The space you put between the first Short and the second Short should be the same space you put in between the second Short and the Short + Punch you use to activate the Super. It's not a Buffer, so don't do it quickly like a Buffer.
    I love that version of the AHK. I try to use his overhead for mix-ups after hisknee throw,j.jab ->AHK, or during a combo. I havent played much competitive ST yet. Is this an effective method, or is it easily countered?

    The Overhead kicks are useful only in a Blue Moon. They work REALLY well on people who aren't used to them, but on most players, it doesn't do much for you, especially if you abuse it. So save it for those key moments, like finishing someone off or hitting them when you know they are one hit away from a dizzy. One good tactic is that you can hit Gief with it as a Meaty at a range you cannot be SPD'ed! If you learn that distance, you can usually get a dizzy off of Gief if you land Jump Fierce XX Air hurricane Kick into Crouch Roundhouse. One overhead there will cause Gief to fall Dizzy a lot, and if they try and SPD, you land the kick for sure.

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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    I saw a very interesting glitch for the first time. The CPU was Ken, I crossed him up with a Fierce Horizontal Rolling Ball, the CPU input the command for a RH tatsumaki at the same moment. I landed, and he hit me 1 time, bounced off me, and continued the same tatsumaki all the way to the other side of the screen (full screen)!
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  • NoAffinityNoAffinity Saikyooooooo!!!! Joined: Posts: 484 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Oh and about the Knee Bash..I was watching Mattsun, and after a knee bash, he seems to always do jumping short. I know that that's a good tick into knee bash, so my questions..

    What's a better tick, jumping short, walkup kneebash, or jumping short, crouching short, walkup kneebash?

    What else can you do with a jumping short?

    Best bet, like with any aspect of the game, is to mix it up. In the above scenario, you have a plethora of options:

    jump-in short->cr. short->knee bash

    jump-in short->knee bash

    jump-in jab->cr. short->knee bash

    jump-in jab->roundhouse AHK->walk-in knee bash

    jump-in jab->roundhouse AHK->cr. roundhouse (knock-down, sometime dizzy)

    jump-in fierce/roundhouse->fierce AHK->crouching roundhouse (knock-down, frequent dizzy, difficult to time following a knee bash->jump in...for me at least)

    jump-in jab->fierce AHK->cr. forward->fireball (the fireball will not combo)

    jump-in jab->fierce AHK->cr. forward->crescent kick (crescent kick will not combo, and leaves you vulnerable to counter, but good for flash)

    ...and other, but you get the idea. For stricly finding additional usefullness for the jump-in short, a personall favorite is: jump-in short->cr. short->jab uppercut (3-hit, knock-down).

    The "short arc" AHK (aka juice kick) can be performed by executing it very early in a jump. It is easier to do if "video slow down" is being produced, such as when a fireball hits an opponent, or holding jump forward while in move animation (such as a whiffed uppercut) then executing AHK as soon as jump animation begins. Timing is quite tricky.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I really like Ken because of how different he plays in this game. He is a very fun and complex character, but man, that juice kick is hard to do on a pad! I haven't tried it using a stick yet.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    i have a question about ken's crazy kicks

    how many kicks are there?
    how do i use them??

    cometimes they come out when i don't want it....how do i fix this problem??
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    He has 3 kicks:

    1. qcf + kick
    Used in combos or after a c.RH much like fireball. This is the most useful of the 3.

    2. toward to down + kick
    Not much use that I know of.

    3. hcf + kick
    This is like Ryu's s.RH, but it's faster and generally not as useful.

    If you hold the kick button after any of these attacks, it becomes an overhead, which can be useful sometimes.

    Using them by accident is a problem everyone has at first. You just need to focus more on doing the motions for the moves you want "cleanly" if that makes sense.
  • MariodoodMariodood You Cant Escape..O_o Joined: Posts: 1,458
    Hey guys, just a question about KNEE BASH (still my reason for playing N Ken)

    So let's say I set up knee bash with a crouching LK tick. The opponent can get out with counter throw or reversal shoryu. What I'm wondering is, if I do crouching LK -> LP shoryu, will their shoryu get beaten out? If not, how can I beat their reversal shoryu attempt?

    I'm also not having nearly as much trouble doing juice kicks now, my advice for anyone trying it is just do Upforward -> Back as fast as possible. My big problem (the reason I can't really do it 100%) is because I often hit Up when I'm trying to hit Up-forward, and so I end up doing an "up" juice kick, which has a much narrower arc than the upforward one, and that screws me a lot. I love juice kicking over a fireball and knee bashing the fuck out of the guy who threw it. Yeah!
  • Golden_GunmanGolden_Gunman Joined: Posts: 636
    In the example you give, the opponent's Shoryu, if timed correctly, will beat yours. That's because they will recover slightly quicker than you. Your shoryu will beat their counter throw attempt, however.

    What you want to do is vary ticks. If you always do cr. lk tick, throw, then mix it up with cr lk X 2 , throw, or finish the entire block string, like cr lk X 3, cr mk X Hadoken, etc.

    One thing to also be aware of is that Ken's MP throw has more range. Sometimes you can do like cr lk x 2 and be out of knee bash range, but still in range for that throw.
  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Hey guys, just a question about KNEE BASH (still my reason for playing N Ken)

    So let's say I set up knee bash with a crouching LK tick. The opponent can get out with counter throw or reversal shoryu. What I'm wondering is, if I do crouching LK -> LP shoryu, will their shoryu get beaten out? If not, how can I beat their reversal shoryu attempt?

    As GG already said if they time it right they can beat your DP. However you can delay in anticipation to beat or trade with their DP. That's a bit too much thinking though and if you want to hit with the DP there are other setups.

    Instead of a LK->knee bash you could do a couple of LK to put you slightly out of throw range. Now in order to throw you would need to walk forward just a bit. This is where the DP can play havoc with your opponent. Natural instinct for a player is to poke or counter throw when an opponent walks towards them. If you walk forward a bit->DP you will find it much like a psychic DP when you hit the counter.

    It's a decent option considering that if they do nothing and simply block Ken is fairly safe due to his fast DP recovery.

    Basically the order of actions would be 2/3 LK->Slight pause(anticipating a counter DP, though you could skip)->walk forward a step->DP/or walk forward a step knee bash
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  • MariodoodMariodood You Cant Escape..O_o Joined: Posts: 1,458
    Ok, thanks guys, I'll remember that stuff. I got more questions.

    Can Ryu juice kick too? If so, that is lame. Seems like he really got the better end of the bargain in this game, he got forward+MP, forward+HP, Shinkuu Hadoken, and better fireballs then Ken. What does Ken have over Ryu besides KNEE BASH?
    How does Ken combo his hurricane kick out of air normals? Such as jumping jab -> hurricane kick. I can't do it! Is there any special timing to it?
  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Ok, thanks guys, I'll remember that stuff. I got more questions.

    Can Ryu juice kick too? If so, that is lame. Seems like he really got the better end of the bargain in this game, he got forward+MP, forward+HP, Shinkuu Hadoken, and better fireballs then Ken.

    That is a good question. As far as I have seen nobody does it but i would assume he should have it. Perhaps it isn't as good as Ken's?
    What does Ken have over Ryu besides KNEE BASH?

    Quick dragon, easy to use cross up and longer range ground pokes.(standing Roundhouse)

    He may still have his superior jump fierce punch as well.
    How does Ken combo his hurricane kick out of air normals? Such as jumping jab -> hurricane kick. I can't do it! Is there any special timing to it?

    Just practice. I think the timing is odd.
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853

    He may still have his superior jump fierce punch as well.

    This is correct! Confirmed by YBH hit box illustrations.
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  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    This is correct! Confirmed by YBH hit box illustrations.

    Thanks.

    Apparently I got neg repped for answering Mariodood's questions????
    Who's cuisine reigns supreme?!

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  • KuprinKuprin MOOGLE RUSH!!! Joined: Posts: 322
    Welcome to SRK. When the neg comes, the neg comes. Usually in shitstorm form. I just ignore it.
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  • Sanjuro_The_RoninSanjuro_The_Ronin ST 4 life yo! Joined: Posts: 572
    Ok, thanks guys, I'll remember that stuff. I got more questions.

    Can Ryu juice kick too? If so, that is lame. Seems like he really got the better end of the bargain in this game, he got forward+MP, forward+HP, Shinkuu Hadoken, and better fireballs then Ken. What does Ken have over Ryu besides KNEE BASH?

    Yes Ryu can juice kick kind of. I find it not nearly as useful as Ken's considering you can set up alot of different scenarios with Ken's while Ryu's just knocks them down. Ive done it randomly with both O.Ryu and N.Ryu.
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  • KyokujiKyokuji Needlessly Perverted Joined: Posts: 2,926
    The main thing Ken has over Ryu is relatively safe DPs. You can miss one at point blank and probably still be OK. That makes it a lot tougher for people like 'Sim to just stick out random normals.
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  • MariodoodMariodood You Cant Escape..O_o Joined: Posts: 1,458
    I didn't know that, I thought they were the same.

    How safe are DPs on block? I know they're really safe, but can anyone punish them on block?

    Anywhere I can find frame data for ST?
  • KuprinKuprin MOOGLE RUSH!!! Joined: Posts: 322
    I don't believe anyone can punish Ken's jab DP on block. Stronger ones can definitely be punished.

    Yoga Book Hyper is the best source of ST frame data, though I believe there are sources around the Internet in various places.
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  • MariodoodMariodood You Cant Escape..O_o Joined: Posts: 1,458
    What about Ryu's dp?
  • ShinAkuma204ShinAkuma204 The Primordial Ooze Joined: Posts: 4,524
    Ken's DP is hard to punish but can be punished still with a trip or a fast attack.

    Ryu's can basically be punished easily if you expect it and can always be tripped.
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Ken's DP is hard to punish but can be punished still with a trip or a fast attack.

    FYI, at the right distanace the the Jab is un-punishable. It will leave ken with a +1 frame advanage. Even if it is a little off, there are no normal moves in the game that are are fast enough to punish the DP at this distance... Even Dhalsims ducking forwards with a 2 frame start up can punish it, b/c ken is pushed to far away.

    This is discussed/shown in the Yoga Book Hyper.
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