Honda thread

SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
Time for the thread about the golden meatball of Japan!

So yeah, I've been pretty much using solely Honda in ST since I ever picked it up seriously. I've always found he has some great game going if you can ignore his complete inability to deal with fireballs effectively and his relatively slow footsie game.

Honda's biggest problem is to deal with shotos, Sagat and characters who both have a fireball and a good uppercut. He can easily go around characters with weaker fireballs like Chun and Sim however because of their longer frames when they do a fireball, and if done right he can just go and trounce them around once he's evaded one of the fireballs. His best way to deal with fireballs in my opinion is to simply get in range for a short or forward buttstomp and just wait for the new fireball and buttsomp them down. Done in close range, there's no way they can retaliate to it, after which you can just use wakeup to your advantage. And of course, his super goes right through any fireball. The hit will always be blocked but it's a safe move, and even if it hits just once it deals enough damage to put pressure down one someone.

Speaking of wakeup, Honda has a lot of good mixup options for putting someone back down when they wakeup. Forward buttstomp is an overhead and goes pretty fast, standing RH can punish from almost halfway across the screen, short buttstomp can link into anything and is barely punishable unless you see it coming, strong hands deals good chip damage and puts pressure down on an opponent and his best moves hands-down for punishing someone on wakeup is a held grab, that stuff just rapes anyone stupid enough to not see it coming a mile away. His lack of fireballs somewhat limits his longer range wakeup, but he's got enough closerange options to deal with it.

His best air moves are almost all into kicks. Jumping short floats and can also overhead with d+short, jumping d+forward is just an incredible move overall, jumping roundhouse is great for crossups and overhead and has fairly long air-to-air range and decent priority and jumping fierce rapes in close range and goes over fireballs (thanks NKI for showing me that). He's not as air dominant as Blanka and Chun but he can do some great things up there if he's used right.

The big problem I've seen with him is that his footsie game is way too slow and pretty predictable. His good long range footsie moves are standing roundhouse, crouching fierce (I think it's crouching fierce, too lazy to boot my DC and check it out, the one where he trips with his hand), Hands (all versions are good enough), short Headbutt (two hits and almost no recovery!!), back+mk, judo chop in close range against jump-ins and any other punches when putting pressure down.

So yeah, I guess that's it. Hope this sparks some discussion about the fat guy and maybe some big SF2 guy can share some more tactics for him, but I fear I'm the only dedicated Honda fan here :(

But yeah, discuss and stuff.
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Comments

  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Hmm, your whole strat seems very basic and quite suicidal to me. Wheres the proper advancing tactics, buttstomping at mid screen is gonna get you killed fast. Wheres the oochio mix ups, you can;t tell me you don't utilise his best move in someway; loop of doom. Also I'd say a good Chun is one of Honda's hardest matchups, harder than shotos. Also Sagat is probably Hondas easiest Fireball character match. High tigers arent a problem, and you can headbutt over low tigers and since sags limbs stick out far honda can really hit punish him. I would go into great detail, but a friend of mine who taught me Honda is in the midst of writing the ST Honda bible. I've had a sneak peak and its pure gold.
  • magitekmagitek Joined: Posts: 14
    I'm a honda noob, but here's a basic tactic I use, jump-in d.mk or d.lk, crossup or not, you can do a Ohicho throw. After a successful Ochicho throw, its almost a guaranteed dizzy if you managed to hit them again right after; for example, a buttslam or whatever. Some questions I have is whats the difference of using jump-in d.lk as opposed to d.mk and what situations are there that one is prefered over the other? What can I do against a fireball character that zones well such as chun-li?
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    err, secrets of Honda your asking there. jumping d.mk(splash) is nearly always preferrable over j.lk. With j.lk you have to be a spot otherwise you'll get thrown for your trouble. As with the splash its easier to connect your stored oochio. If not you can just tap out a MP HHS for chip. j.lk can be quite usefull against guile's sonic boom cause its so thin.

    Getting through fireballs is probably one of the hardest things you'll need to learn with Honda. At long range you can buttstomp and land pretty safe even with the mk version, be careful of sweeps though. You could even bulldog your way to mid range, (walk forward and block fireballs at the last second. I would strongly reccomend against buttstomping from this range, way to easy for you to be punished. What you can do is do a straight jump up HP, as you have slight control over it, and buffer it into HP HHS when you land, you'll leap forward, and will either trade with the next fireball in your favor, or hit them clean. When you do get a chance to jump forward, you'll prob just manage to make em block a jumping HP or HK, which you should also buffer into HHS. As they reel backwards from being hit or being pushed back by blocking you can gain some ground, you want to push them to the corner. Cause once you get one knockdown in the corner it should be game over.
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Don't forget, though, that you only get the free-dizzy after the Oochio Throw if you use the Fierce button to do the throw. Because of the stored Honda Throw glitch, however, the majority of your Oochio Throws will be Jab, which doesn't allow you to dizzy as easily. Which is not really a big loss, considering how broken the stored throw glitch is.

    Also, one of the most underrated Jumping Attacks for Honda is just plain ol' Jumping Forward, not Down+Forward. That thing has much better proirity than most of his other Jumping Attacks and will beat a lot more moves than his other Jumping Attacks.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Also, one of the most underrated Jumping Attacks for Honda is just plain ol' Jumping Forward, not Down+Forward. That thing has much better proirity than most of his other Jumping Attacks and will beat a lot more moves than his other Jumping Attacks.

    - James

    Agreed. The hit box on J.MK is half as long but twice the depth on the end of his foot than compared to the jumping RH
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  • SnoweSnowe Joined: Posts: 45
    forward + hk is a very very good move. Its reach is so long and I trade hits with people who do fireballs :)
  • Footsy BebopFootsy Bebop Joined: Posts: 326
    I've seen in a couple a videos, some Honda players do whiff low short into fierce hundred hand slap. Is there a trick to do this or is it just crazy ass button mashing? I've seen people do the same trick in CvS2, there I think they're using "piano tapping" to get the hundred hand slap to come out after a whiff, does that same technique work in Super Turbo?
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Hundered Hand Slap this BITCH!
    I've seen in a couple a videos, some Honda players do whiff low short into fierce hundred hand slap. Is there a trick to do this or is it just crazy ass button mashing?

    If youre a member of combovideos.com look for the pony canyon SF Turbo video (VHS). It showed many of the input techniques used buy the Japanese Players. You don't have to press the buttons that rapidly at all. It is very interesting. DL the video and watch it. The techniques are at the end. :cybot:
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    For the low short into fierce hands, I don't know the reason, but it seems like it's easier to get fierce hands out if you tap another button immediately prior to going for fierce. So for low short into fierce hands, it would be down+short+fierce-fierce-fierce-fierce-fierce. You have to tap it quickly, but not ridiculously quickly. I do index finger on the short and ring finger on fierce, and I tap the ring finger a bunch; obviously the ring finger isn't the fastest one on your hand, but it still comes out most of the time. Pianoing doesn't work in ST per se, but since it seems that fierce hands comes out more easily if you press a button right before fierce, you can tap strong-fierce-strong-fierce etc and either strong or fierce slaps will come out.

    As for jumping short butt, it beats certain attacks if it lands on them, like it can beat/trade with parts of Guile's low forward for example. It also cuts Honda's jump short as soon as you press it, so it's a decent way to move forward, especially if followed up by fierce hands.

    If you're going for tick into command throw, mixing it up with a jumping short butt every once in a while isn't a bad idea. The best ticks into command grab are crossup roundhouse/forward splash into low jab, negative edge grab, but like with any ticking in this game, you need to mix it up. There are no real negative consequences to getting reversaled out of the grab because you'll just block and be able to go for headbutt/hands/grab/whatever, but still, you'd rather get command grab than not, so mix up your ticking by adding a crouching short or standing jab or whatever, you know, just to keep the opponent on his toes in terms of when he should try to reversal.

    On how to get around fireballs, it's really character-specific, but in general your tricks are buttslam (not that good usually), jump straight up toward+fierce, walk up and block, jump toward forward/roundhousewalk up toward+roundhouse, and fierce hands dash (get fierce hands out for the smallest amount of time possible and it essentially becomes a dash). Not great options, but that's what you have.
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  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Actually, and I'm pretty sure about this, piano-ing doesn't help in ST at all. If you tap alternating Fierce and Strong, you'll get the Hand Slap out simply because you pressed ONE of those button enough times for it to register. And I think it's 6 presses of one button within a certain time frame (later games would reduce it to 5, and then they would introduce the piano-ing possibilities even later).

    If you are playing on a joystick, oftentimes I use two fingers (index and middle) for tapping one button, alternating. But if you are on a pad, I'm not really sure of any good techniques outside of just mashing like there is no tomorrow.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

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  • Don CalzoneDon Calzone Joined: Posts: 291
    Anybody got some b'n'bs?
    I saw some vids of the best Honda in Japan, Kunimondo or what he is called. And after a dizzy he would do j.fierce, st. jab, headbutt for sickening damage! I've tried to do it myself lots of times, but can't get it down. Has this something to do with arcade - console ports, or is it just me being to slow?
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    I didn't mean to imply that pianoing worked; it doesn't. I only meant that pressing a different button immediately before (almost simultaneously with) the punch button you want to tap seems to help get the hands out. And you only need to press whatever punch button strength you want 5 times.

    For combos, Honda doesn't really depend on comboing. Jumping fierce, close standing jab xx headbutt isn't really that hard. Honda's headbutt requires very little actual charge time, so you can just jump and start holding back and you'll be good. That said, it's easier to do jumping fierce, crouching short xx headbutt, just because it's easier to link and then cancel into and from crouching short. Other cool combos include crossup forward splash, standing jab, crouching short xx headbutt and after fierce grab, walk forward, crouching short xx headbutt. But again, comboing isn't real important for Honda.
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  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    a friend of mine who taught me Honda is in the midst of writing the ST Honda bible. I've had a sneak peak and its pure gold.

    Did he ever finish this?? Where is it?? :)
    USF4: Still soul searching. Thus far... Yun, Chun, and Akuma.
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  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    I usually just go up and Oicho Throw people when they are dizzy (unless I dizzied him WITH the Oicho Throw... then you can't throw them when they get up). ^_^ You can probably do a better Combo (I use Jump Fierce, Crouch SHORT, into Headbutt), but the Oicho Throw does good damage and sets the enemy up for some fun mind games afterwards, especially in the corner.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • Don CalzoneDon Calzone Joined: Posts: 291
    after fierce grab, walk forward, crouching short xx headbutt. But again, comboing isn't real important for Honda.

    He has lots of options after a fierce grab, it sets up for just about everything Honda got. If you do fierce throw in the corner you can walk under your opponent and do c. rh and it will hit your opponent from behind. It's nice because it really doesn't look that the move will do that.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    I usually just go up and Oicho Throw people when they are dizzy
    That's what I usually do too. I only combo into headbutt if I want to end up at a distance from the opponent, which is obviously matchup-dependent.

    You can walk under after a fierce grab against most characters mid-screen too, although the crouching roundhouse trick doesn't work there.
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  • Don CalzoneDon Calzone Joined: Posts: 291
    (unless I dizzied him WITH the Oicho Throw... then you can't throw them when they get up).l]

    Oh, so you can't oicho them if they're being dizzied BY an ochio? Didn't know that, but it explains some thing i belive, haha.

    One more question, does Honda have any tools against Chuns lightning legs?
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ^ if you dizzy with a throw, the dizzied opponent is immune to throws.
  • Don CalzoneDon Calzone Joined: Posts: 291
    ^ if you dizzy with a throw, the dizzied opponent is immune to throws.

    Only for Ochio or standard throws as well, even for other chars? What about other command grabs?
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  • felinekifelineki Joined: Posts: 981
    Only for Ochio or standard throws as well, even for other chars? What about other command grabs?
    ALL throws. Regular or command throws, all characters. Probably a programming oversight.
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  • arstalarstal Joined: Posts: 2,968
    ST advice: Honda vs Shotos and Chun

    Trying to see what I should be doing in those matchups, versus what I do.

    Vs Chun I try to guess the fireball and jump in with forward, if I knock her down go for oichios. I try to jump strong/fierce the neutral jump short.

    Vs shotos I play more passively, I do look to jump the fireballs, or butt squash them, use more headbutts when they jump, which good ones rarely do (no reason to jump on Honda with Shotos.

    These are the only matchups I really have trouble with- everything else I feel my Honda can handle. Just curious what you guys would suggest. Trying to get Honda to the level where I can fight bad matchups and win.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    its hard, watch some vids
  • Grits'N'GravyGrits'N'Gravy I used to oicho throw people. Joined: Posts: 977
    Try zoning the shotos so that if they fireball you trade with forward hk sweep. It's fast and long, scores a knockdown. After that you can play your wakeup games.
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Check the Honda thread. There is some good stuff in there.
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  • arstalarstal Joined: Posts: 2,968
    Did check that thread- some good stuff in there, but not everything I wanted.

    Looking for stuff like which is better vs Chun's vertical jump fwd- strong or fierce? I know the positioning is the important thing.

    The other projectile matchups I don't have trouble with.
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Did check that thread- some good stuff in there, but not everything I wanted.

    Looking for stuff like which is better vs Chun's vertical jump fwd- strong or fierce? I know the positioning is the important thing.

    The other projectile matchups I don't have trouble with.

    Let me check the YBH for hit box stuff. I'll be able to give you an answer. I'll get back to you!
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  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    Chun vs Honda is a really difficult fight for Honda. It's tough for him to deal with something as simple as jab FB followed by low roundhouse. He also has a really tough time with her jump back forward kick, and once she has her super charged, his options are even more limited.

    Good luck :(
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  • NKINKI Mashers Joined: Posts: 1,788
    Getting around Chun's fireballs is really your biggest hurdle. If you can manage to accomplish that, the match isn't so hard.

    Hundred Hand Slap is really good against Chun, 'cause she doesn't have anything solid to beat it consistently. So say you j.Forward over a fireball, hit or blocked, you're guaranteed some free chip damage with hands unless she has super.

    She also has a tough time with the butt slam in the corner. If she doesn't predict it, the only thing she can really do is Short upkicks, but that's kinda hard to time.

    Also, just his regular punches (st.Jab and st.Strong especially) are great pokes. If you're in close, but not close enough for an Ochio, you can do a st.Jab or st.Strong and keep mashing on punch to get free block damage. Charge down while you're doing this, so that if she throws a fireball, you can butt slam.

    That's my random advice for now.
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  • CoMeBaCk386CoMeBaCk386 Renaissance Gamer Joined: Posts: 1,756
    i have been playin honda for about a year now and against chun best thing i saw is just jumpin hard punch if she throws a fireball its prol the safest thing u can do
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  • Don CalzoneDon Calzone Joined: Posts: 291
    One more question, does Honda have any tools against Chuns lightning legs?

    As I asked earlier in this thread...
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Did he ever finish this?? Where is it?? :)
    Lol, that was me who was writing that ST Honda guide - it actually got about 95% finished, the only section I never completed was the character specific options after both types of grab because there is hella amount of stuff to cover.

    I have no idea when it will get released as I don't have my own PC hooked up atm, I might allow r3ko to release the ghetto version of the guide (which has a lot done except match-up coverage iirc) if people are interested in seeing it but it probably sucks and has a few errors compared to the version I have done now.
    And I think it's 6 presses of one button within a certain time frame (later games would reduce it to 5, and then they would introduce the piano-ing possibilities even later).
    Just to clear it up, the minimum button presses for the HHS is 4 on ST.
    One more question, does Honda have any tools against Chuns lightning legs?
    Not really, you can use HP Headbutt which will sometimes trade hits with her, but the chances of that happening are really small and is pretty much a desperation technique. You can use jump HK and aim for her head which is a clean hit everytime, but I suspect whoever is using Chun against you isn't using lightning legs when you can actually do that.

    Yeah, Chun sucks for Honda... :xeye:
  • Warrior's DreamsWarrior's Dreams 梅原 > Wong Joined: Posts: 1,292
    Lol, that was me who was writing that ST Honda guide - it actually got about 95% finished, the only section I never completed was the character specific options after both types of grab because there is hella amount of stuff to cover.

    I have no idea when it will get released as I don't have my own PC hooked up atm, I might allow r3ko to release the ghetto version of the guide (which has a lot done except match-up coverage iirc) if people are interested in seeing it but it probably sucks and has a few errors compared to the version I have done now.


    Could you release it anyways? Maybe as a beta? Then add stuff later? I'm certain there are Honda players like myself who would be very grateful to you if you did.
    You shouldn't care about the division between ST and HDR, but rather the message you are sending to tournament organizers if you stop supporting the classic style of Street Fighter II.

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Sure thing, it would be nice to finally release something from it since a lot of love went into that guide. What i'll do is get the copy I sent to r3ko and do a quick clean up making the thing at least respectable for a first public release, then we'll take it from there depending on the feedback.
  • Warrior's DreamsWarrior's Dreams 梅原 > Wong Joined: Posts: 1,292
    Sure thing, it would be nice to finally release something from it since a lot of love went into that guide. What i'll do is get the copy I sent to r3ko and do a quick clean up making the thing at least respectable for a first public release, then we'll take it from there depending on the feedback.

    Sounds good. I look forward to it!


    (you're releasing it in this thread right?)
    You shouldn't care about the division between ST and HDR, but rather the message you are sending to tournament organizers if you stop supporting the classic style of Street Fighter II.

    Mike Watson's Super Turbo Revival Sunday's Stream every Sunday! Look up "IEBattleGrounds" on twitch tv's website.
    Here is the latest stream:
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    Sure thing, it would be nice to finally release something from it since a lot of love went into that guide. What i'll do is get the copy I sent to r3ko and do a quick clean up making the thing at least respectable for a first public release, then we'll take it from there depending on the feedback.

    please do :)
    USF4: Still soul searching. Thus far... Yun, Chun, and Akuma.
    UMvC3 mains: Morrigan Doom Vergil, Magneto Doom Ammy, Morrigan Doom Magneto
    UMvC3 fer funsies: Dante Vergil-or-Dorm Magneto, Wesker Sent Hawkeye, Dante-or-Magneto Doom Vergil, Wolvie Doom-or-Sent Akuma, Nova Doom Ammy, Magneto Doom-or-Sent Dante, Wesker Dorm Magneto, Dante Strange Magneto
    MvC3: Dante Magneto Sentinel
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  • Corner-TrapCorner-Trap Troll Harder Joined: Posts: 2,683
    Sure thing, it would be nice to finally release something from it since a lot of love went into that guide. What i'll do is get the copy I sent to r3ko and do a quick clean up making the thing at least respectable for a first public release, then we'll take it from there depending on the feedback.

    have you released it yet?
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I spoke with RWD recently. Hes working on it.
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    Awesome! I havent been using much Honda lately, but no doubt reading this will revamp my interest hardcore. All it will take is one good trick to have me addicted.
    USF4: Still soul searching. Thus far... Yun, Chun, and Akuma.
    UMvC3 mains: Morrigan Doom Vergil, Magneto Doom Ammy, Morrigan Doom Magneto
    UMvC3 fer funsies: Dante Vergil-or-Dorm Magneto, Wesker Sent Hawkeye, Dante-or-Magneto Doom Vergil, Wolvie Doom-or-Sent Akuma, Nova Doom Ammy, Magneto Doom-or-Sent Dante, Wesker Dorm Magneto, Dante Strange Magneto
    MvC3: Dante Magneto Sentinel
    MvC2: Spiral Cable Sentinel ST: Chunny Bunny. 3S: Akuma, Ryu, Dudley. Vampire: Fish, BBHood
    UMK3: Kabal, H.Smoke, Jax, almost everyone. Chess: 1. c4
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Do you guys know if Honda's headbutt can counter Claw's super wall dive grab?
    A friend of mine was playing Honda vs Claw in the finals of a mini-tournament and
    it came as a surprise when Claw just grabbed Honda out of his headbutt.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    The headbutt is partially throwable at its back and at the very start. Unless you're in the corner (not a bad idea against Claw), you should be escaping wall dives with butt drops, jumping strongs, and/or standing fierce.
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