Honda thread

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    1) Lets say Honda is on the left, opponent is on the right. When honda crosses up someone with d.mk (bellyflop), he can store the oicho, but initially he is facing right. But, when he lands, now he is facing left.
    So my question is this: When do you start storing the oicho? When is is still facing right, or when you switch directions and face left? When do you exceute it as well? Does negative edging help any?
    I might be misreading this, but are you going directly from crossover d.MK straight into Oochio? If so I would recommend doing crossover d.MK, c.LK > Oochio instead as this forces a crouch block which in turn reduces the chances of being reversal thrown after the crossover - going directly from d.MK into Oochio isn't a good idea overall imo since the opponent is at the advantage defensively.
    2)
    Posted by ehonda
    crossing honda up is suicide due to the ochio. block then oichio. if it misses you block.

    Similar question, except now someone is crossing up honda. When do you store the oicho? While honda is facing right? or when honda turns around and is facing left? When do you excecute it? Does negative edging help any?
    Store after he has turned around and certainly use negative edge, i'd recommend aiming to Oochio after the inital crossover has been blocked since good players will use a decent block string to push you out of Oochio range, however, if they botch the transition from crossover into the combo attempt, you'll pull them right out of it.

    Hope that helps.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Regarding Honda's headbutt, which characters have a rapid fire normal (standing or crouching jabs or shorts, I guess) that will beat it? Trade with it?

    Which characters are able to punish the headbutt on block? With what?
    Everyone can hit him out of or trade with the headbutt, it's not hard. Even characters without a rapid fire normal can do it, like Dhalsim does with down-back jab or Blanka with standing short. Some characters don't need to do this, but everyone can.

    And nobody can punish the headbutt on block, it's safe. The only time you can get hit after it is if you headbutt over a low tiger shot, hit Sagat, and then as you recover fall on top of the low tiger shot.
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  • deadfrogdeadfrog Joined: Joined: Posts: 6,787
    Gotcha. Thanks a ton for the answer, dude! :smile:
  • Professor JonesProfessor Jones Joined: Posts: 213
    A good thing that most characters can use against the headbutt is to jump back into the corner when you feel that one is coming. When honda reaches the corner after doing a torpedo, he will immediately go into the ending animation of the move wich lasts 25 frames. By this time you are right above him (since you jumped back) and have plenty of time to land a fat combo on your way down. Of course don't get too predictable and start jumping back non stop, it's way more effective if used from time to time. The good thing is that the honda player will now think twice before doing a torpedo. And if he doesn't it's all good too, free combos for you !
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I've been playing O.Honda recently, and I have to say that he is a very fun character. I suggest that people give him a try. He plays quite a bit different from ST Honda. You can play a bit more offensively because the chop (which is a great anti-air) is available at all times.

    Here's a video that might add some motivation

    This is O.Honda vs CE Guile (Muteki!)
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    If O Honda had N Honda's strong and fierce slaps, better jumping short and butt slam hit boxes, and controllable jumping fierce, in other words, if he had N Honda's better ways of getting in, he'd be a really good character (and he could use N Honda's crossup jumping roundhouse. Love his cancelable standing/crouching jab, standing kick sweeps, crouching fierce sweep, standing fierce chop, and walking jab slaps. Unfortunately, on the characters Honda wants to get in on, he's definitely worse than N Honda. I think he's at least as good and in some cases better than N Honda against the characters Honda wants to keep out or play zoning games with, though. Basically, N Honda is better for getting in, O Honda is at least as good or better at keeping out.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Yeah, I understand that N. Honda is better, but O. Honda isn't bad either and is quite fun to use. I like both.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Not bad overall at all, but he does lose to keepaway characters worse than N Honda. I like using him too, and I hope Remixed Honda has elements of both O and N Honda in him.
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  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,149
    Ok, I know this is a stupid question, but anyways. How do I beat Blanka's j.LK (and j.MK?)? I dunno if it's because my timing is off, but my torpedoes get beaten every single time. Same with MK buttslams. Tried jumping Jab, which seems to be good at mid-screen situations, but not near the corner.

    I have the same problem against every Blanka I fight. Please someone help this scrub :(
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Last-minute jab headbutt. Not so last-minute that Blanka gets to land first, but time it so that you'll hit him as late as you can and you'll beat his jump-ins every time. If you're talking about crossup jumping short, you should probably just block, but if you really wanna get out then go for a roundhouse buttslam.
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  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,149
    So it's my timing then. I'll try to tune-up my headbutt timing. Thanks.
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Who are Honda's worst matchups? In my short ST experience, I find that shotos/Sagat that know how to zone and SRK on reaction (most of the time anyway) are my main weaknesses. But then again, anyone who can SRK on reaction is a really good player anyway. I know that Deejay is supposed to be a big anti-honda, but I guess I haven't really run into a super DJ yet.

    In HF, Guile and Chun were huge counter Honda picks, but both seem more managable to me in ST.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    I'd say his worst matchups are DeeJay, Ryu, and O Ken, and then N Ken, Chun, and Guile after that. I don't think O Sagat is that bad a matchup for him, to be honest. I think he loses to O Sagat, but I think it's like 4-6, although I wouldn't object too seriously to putting O Sagat at around the same difficulty as Guile.

    DeeJay's probably his worst matchup. The maxout is really hard to get over because it's so wide, comes out so fast, and can be made either really slow or really fast, and when you do get past it DeeJay has a hundred attacks that all seem pretty much tailor made to beat Honda's jump-ins and buttslams.
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  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    I haven't really had much O.Sagat matchup experience. Every time I find a guy who plays him I usually beat him pretty good, but seeing pro O.Sagat usage from Evo makes me realize that when used right Honda is definitely at a disadvantage.

    I've also been told that when used right, DJ's Maxout->Slide is pretty much unbeatable if timed right. I've never played against someone who could do it to me without fail (and once I get in, it is usually over), but I know it's easy to people who play the match a lot.
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  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Is there any way to reliably ochio out of balrog throw traps?
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I been playing honda recently, and i like him a lot, he can do pretty well against almost the full cast, o.ken and ryu players who can do srk on reaction are my nightmares :sad:

    And for the boxer loop throw, u can do the ochio motion with fierce~strong, if u fail the ochio, u'll get the bear huge, i think this throw have more range than ochio, and the same than boxer throw (im not sure about this, if someone can correct it...) I do this and almost never fails to me :lovin:
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Do stored negative edge command grab to get out of that, it should work every time. So press jab-strong-fierce and half circle back before you get up, hold the stick at down-back, and let go of fierce-strong-jab as you get up. If it doesn't work because he's doing a tick from too far away, just drum the punch buttons again.
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    What are viable things to do to counter Claw's wakeup wall dive shenanigans, where he times a wall dive that may or may not crossup just as I get to my feet from a knockdown?

    The usual anti-air jab headbutt doesn't work very well since I lose my charge as soon as Claw crosses to the other side. It almost seems the safest way to act is to just guess a direction and block high, but half the time I just get knocked down and Claw does another wall dive...
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Block or buttslam, depending on the situation. Buttslam will usually get you away from Claw and basically set both of you back to neutral positions, but in some situations, depending on where you are on screen and how Claw controls his dive, he can actually punish you at the end of your buttslam with slide and then start a new dive. Try to identify those situations and just block them.
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Block or buttslam, depending on the situation. Buttslam will usually get you away from Claw and basically set both of you back to neutral positions, but in some situations, depending on where you are on screen and how Claw controls his dive, he can actually punish you at the end of your buttslam with slide and then start a new dive. Try to identify those situations and just block them.
    Buttslam indeed works like a charm, thanks for the tip :)
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Any tips for turtle Guiles who are also incredibly patient and can reversal nearly all the time? It's like fighting a spiked wall that throws fireballs at you.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Guile can be pretty annoying. You wanna limit jumping over booms to attack him to a minimum, because you're probably gonna get flash kicked and maybe crouching fierced. The only time that's a reasonable thing to do is if you're standing at about the range of your jumping forward or roundhouse and you have great reactions and jump over a boom as soon as it comes out, but that's pretty rare. Jumping is also ok if see the Guile player standing... also rare.

    Better ways to get around booms depend on where you are on screen, but usually you want controllable neutral jumping fierce or neutral jumping kick or just bulldogging (walking up and blocking booms on reaction, then walking forward again), but toward jumping forward/roundhouse/short and forward buttslam are fine in some situations too. Make sure that if you're going to jump over a boom that you recognize what speed it is first, and if in doubt just block. You can follow up a jump over a boom with strong/fierce slaps, bulldogging, buttslam, headbutt, jumping toward forward/roundhouse, or toward standing roundhouse sweep.

    A great spot for you to try to stand is at like standing sweep range. Here you can sweep Guile with toward standing roundhouse, chip him strong/fierce slaps, beat out crouching forward with your crouching forward/strong/roundhouse, or do walk up fierce grab or ochio.

    One thing to note is that if you do fierce grab on Guile midscreen, you can hold jumping toward and do down+fierce for the splash, and it'll usually cross him up and always be a safe jump. The only problem is that since it usually but randomly crosses up, you can't be sure which way to block if Guile does a reversal flash kick/super. Generally just block like you're gonna cross up. It's stupid for Guile to try reversal most of the time because most of the time you'll safe jump, so he'll probably just block expecting a cross up. Once you're there, you can do all sorts of things, like crouching jab to fierce grab or ochio, crouching short to whatever-strength buttslam, strong slaps, crouching roundhouse, whatever. You can also mix this up by just doing toward jumping forward after the fierce grab, which will never be a crossup.
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  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Yeah, I understand that N. Honda is better, but O. Honda isn't bad either and is quite fun to use. I like both.

    I love to use both. O.Honda has a nasty 3 hit combo + HHS block damage that is too easy to land (crossup belly flop->cr.LP->LP HHS). Takes a ton of damage plus you are essentially charged for ether sumo smash or headbutt at the end of it. If you nail them with a headbutt after the combo (like if they try to jump away) it is dizzy time and pretty much GGPO.
    Guile can be pretty annoying. *snip*

    Yeah. I almost never have a problem with Guile because most people play him the same. It is just that rare player that has perfect zoning + patience and reversal skill that just seems nearly impossible to crack with a character lacking a fireball.

    The person who pretty much made me ask this question was wolf1 (I think that was his name). He said your Honda actually busts his Guile up, which is pretty damned impressive. Wish there was a video or two of those matches.
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Any tips for turtle Guiles who are also incredibly patient and can reversal nearly all the time? It's like fighting a spiked wall that throws fireballs at you.
    Disclaimer: I am not an expert, feel free to question this advice.

    I've found that a very useful thing to remember against Guile is that he cannot use his flash kick for a short time after throwing a sonic boom, so you've got a short window of time where it's relatively safe to jump over that boom or buttslam him. On the other hand, be extremely careful if he doesn't throw a boom for a short while as that probably means he's preparing for a flash kick.

    The towards+roundhouse far sweep is also pretty useful to punish his pokes as it outranges his normals and can trade with booms in your advantage.

    Bulldogging is often very difficult against him because of his incredible recovery after booms, a good Guile will throw you enough booms to push you back from blocking the booms so you won't actually advance anywhere. Some Hondas like jumping straight up with the controllable FP but once again that doesn't let you go anywhere and mistiming the jumps is dangerous. Against a good Guile, your only real option from a far distance is to just jump over booms or SK/MK buttslam through them instead. HK buttslam is pretty dangerous to use to advance, though, since it's fairly easy to counter. I try to only use the HK buttslam if I'm sure it'll actually hit Guile, and never use it just to advance. In any case, where you want to get is just out of range of his sweeps, from there you can punish whatever he does.

    But Honda vs Turtle Guile still remains a lot of guesswork and mind games for me. I often do buttslam+HHS or far sweep if I guess he's going to boom. Far sweeps are also useful against pokes, and sometimes Guile gets twitchy enough with them that he'll try to psychic Flash Kick them, which often fails and nets you a free hit. If he gets afraid to throw booms (i.e. he's storing his Flash Kick and waiting for you to jump) I'll just MP HHS him for tick damage, since it's impossible for him to Flash Kick you on reaction. If you're at the right distance, even if he does throw a boom the MP HHS will often trade anyway, and most pokes will be cleanly stuffed. Learn to recognize that distance and be ready to HHS him for free tick (or counter!) damage.

    Technically you could also try a walk-up grab, but most Guiles will poke too much for that to be viable and you'll usually be a bit too far for it to be much of a surprise.

    But all these depend on your ability to predict your opponent. The scariest Guiles are those who can reversal Flash Kick only after they see you start a move to tick-damage them, like a buttslam+HHS. Perhaps the safest thing to do after you score a knockdown is to get close to him and try a negative-edge Oochio - if he tries a reversal Flash Kick you'll just block him, if he tries to block or poke you'll get the throw. It's often hard to get into range fast enough, and it's still pretty dangerous if he decides to go for the counter-throw, but you can train him to not do that by doing meaty far sweeps instead, once in a while.

    A crazy thing I like to do in combination with that is to use a buttslam to get close to him as he gets up, but purposefully do it early so I either land before he gets up, or it counts as a safe jump and I'm safe from reversal Flash Kicks anyway. And then do the negative edge Oochio stuff. Bonus points if it crosses up! You have to do it really early though. Often Guile will try to reversal Flash Kick it since the move is so obvious, but since you're already landed and blocking you'll get the advantage. Then maybe mix it up by sometimes actually hitting him with the buttslam+HHS for some sweet tick damage so he never knows whether to reversal flash kick or not - that's much more dangerous to do against reversal fiends but it does increase your psychological "fear factor".

    Overall, though, the only "safe" thing you can do is use that small safe window after a boom to jump-in FP or buttslam and do some tick damage - and that depends a lot on your reflexes... Generally I try more to win the psychological war against Guile because he can technically psychic Flash Kick me anytime else than after a missed boom if he's calm enough, so I want to do everything I can to upset him and make him lose his concentration. Where Guile thrives on regularness and predictability, you prefer chaos to happen and screw his well-timed patterns. So don't be afraid to take gambles and try to guess his moves because overall you'll generally get more out of correct guesses than Guile will out of your mispredictions. Honda vs Turtle Guile must really get into Guile's mind to win the match, both to predict his actions and to instill paralysing fear.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    A bit more on Honda vs Guile:

    As I said earlier, when you're at your traditional ideal range (just out of Guile's sweeps and within your far sweep range) you have some good options available, most notably your MP HHS (the leading crouch MP will often beat Guile's low kicks and the HHS itself is basically impossible to flash kick on reaction, though it will lose to Guile's crouch MK IIRC). Guile's sweeps beat your own, but if he gets too sweep-happy you can just headbutt them (again, practically impossible to counter on reaction, but it's riskier because it'll cleanly lose to booms).

    Using your super to close in from a far distance is very safe, there's really not much Guile can do to punish or prevent it and it leaves you at the right distance to put the pressure.

    However there is another range where you can be deadly and that is a bit further back, when you are charged, within the range of the RK buttslam. You'll often end up there from blocking a boom at the traditional good distance. You look pretty harmless at that distance and Guile will be tempted to Sonic Boom you, but your advantage is that you're just far enough to have the time to RK buttslam on reaction when Guile throws the boom. The RK buttslam will go through the boom and catch Guile without a flash kick ready, at which point I usually tack on the MP HHS for some tick damage and am at the traditional good distance for Honda. The key here is to be patient and avoid buttslamming until Guile does throw that boom. You really want to focus all your concentration on Guile to catch him as he booms (and he is extremely likely to boom at some point).

    Even if he decides to jumpkick towards you instead of throwing a boom, the buttslam has enough invincibility to serve as a good anti-air if you time it late. Normally you'd want to jab headbutt him instead (headbutt is a better anti-air) but only having to focus on the buttslam makes it easier to react fast enough.

    If Guile catches on, though, you're entering a whole new level of mind games because he can guess you're going to do that and immediately do a jumpkick after the boom to knock you out of the buttslam, and frankly that's pretty much all he can reasonably do. But he can't reliably do that on reaction, he has to guess it. And if you guess he's going to do that (throw a boom, jumpkick to stuff your buttslam) then you can wait for him to jump and counter-headbutt him out of the air easily. If you guess wrong you'll just block the boom and be pushed back a bit, so it's a fairly safe thing to do.

    Guess, guess, guess, guess, guess. Sounds pretty risky, and it is, but generally you don't care because Honda is such a brute that you only need to guess right two or three times to win.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    A bit more on Honda vs Guile:

    As I said earlier, when you're at your traditional ideal range (just out of Guile's sweeps and within your far sweep range) you have some good options available, most notably your MP HHS (the leading crouch MP will often beat Guile's low kicks and the HHS itself is basically impossible to flash kick on reaction, though it will lose to Guile's crouch MK IIRC). Guile's sweeps beat your own, but if he gets too sweep-happy you can just headbutt them (again, practically impossible to counter on reaction, but it's riskier because it'll cleanly lose to booms).

    Just getting into sweeping range is a huge challenge to peepz that know the matchup well. Guile has so many tricks (backhand, boom, sweeps, flashkick) that its like I have to eat booms to get in. Also, I can't immediately do a MP HHS (can't tap that fast). May have to work on that.

    Using your super to close in from a far distance is very safe, there's really not much Guile can do to punish or prevent it and it leaves you at the right distance to put the pressure.

    No it isn't. Not against anyone that knows Honda's super blocked = free reversal. Any Guile that I've played that knows that will give me a flashkick for my trouble any time. They also are smart enough to realize that when I have super to not throw sonic booms.
    A bit more on Honda vs Guile:

    However there is another range where you can be deadly and that is a bit further back, when you are charged, within the range of the RK buttslam. You'll often end up there from blocking a boom at the traditional good distance. You look pretty harmless at that distance and Guile will be tempted to Sonic Boom you, but your advantage is that you're just far enough to have the time to RK buttslam on reaction when Guile throws the boom. The RK buttslam will go through the boom and catch Guile without a flash kick ready, at which point I usually tack on the MP HHS for some tick damage and am at the traditional good distance for Honda. The key here is to be patient and avoid buttslamming until Guile does throw that boom. You really want to focus all your concentration on Guile to catch him as he booms (and he is extremely likely to boom at some point).

    Smart guiles charge down back, so even if they fire a boom they are pre-charged for a flashkick directly afterwards. Even without it I'll most likely trade with a crouching FP in Guile's favor. Then it is footsies into boom to knock me back.


    Even if he decides to jumpkick towards you instead of throwing a boom, the buttslam has enough invincibility to serve as a good anti-air if you time it late. Normally you'd want to jab headbutt him instead (headbutt is a better anti-air) but only having to focus on the buttslam makes it easier to react fast enough.

    If Guile catches on, though, you're entering a whole new level of mind games because he can guess you're going to do that and immediately do a jumpkick after the boom to knock you out of the buttslam, and frankly that's pretty much all he can reasonably do. But he can't reliably do that on reaction, he has to guess it. And if you guess he's going to do that (throw a boom, jumpkick to stuff your buttslam) then you can wait for him to jump and counter-headbutt him out of the air easily. If you guess wrong you'll just block the boom and be pushed back a bit, so it's a fairly safe thing to do.

    Guess, guess, guess, guess, guess. Sounds pretty risky, and it is, but generally you don't care because Honda is such a brute that you only need to guess right two or three times to win.

    A smart guile would never ever jump into a charged honda. Also, good Guiles seems to be able to react and hit me out of Sumo Smashes with a jumping FP or just throw me out.

    I know this is a guessing game for honda when the guile player knows how to work the match. I was just hoping that honda had some secret answer to make the match a little less of an uphill battle. I've only run into two "Invincible Turtle" guiles on GGPO so far, but I would like to try and put up a better fight next time :tup:

    Thanks for the info guys.
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  • COUMCOUM COUM Joined: Posts: 442
    Smart guiles charge down back, so even if they fire a boom they are pre-charged for a flashkick directly afterwards.

    uhh what
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    It is easy if you have a square gate. Hold DB, go from DB to DF punch (for sonic boom). At this point you still have a down charge, so you are free to go for a flash kick after you recover from a sonic boom.
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  • COUMCOUM COUM Joined: Posts: 442
    yeah that doesnt work dude
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    O rly? Making me doubt myself, eh? I'll test it when I get back from work :(
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  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    None of the projectile charge specials allow you to end on a diagonal direction. This isn't boxer we're talking about here.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    It is easy if you have a square gate. Hold DB, go from DB to DF punch (for sonic boom). At this point you still have a down charge, so you are free to go for a flash kick after you recover from a sonic boom.

    NO! u cant!!! the ONLY character who can store charge is Balrog! because of his dash low (DF) and headbutt (UB), Guile CANT store charge!!! the only way is doing the motion very fast (down back to forward to down back + P) or the flash kick motion...
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    No it isn't. Not against anyone that knows Honda's super blocked = free reversal. Any Guile that I've played that knows that will give me a flashkick for my trouble any time. They also are smart enough to realize that when I have super to not throw sonic booms.
    I've never been Guile-reversaled after a blocked super from fullscreen, and there's been a few Guiles who have tried it. Guile just whiffs. Maybe it's actually possible, but I haven't encountered someone who can do it yet.

    Or maybe you're talking about a blocked close-range super? Yeah, that can happen, but normally you want to reserve the super to get close from fullscreen.
    Smart guiles charge down back, so even if they fire a boom they are pre-charged for a flashkick directly afterwards.
    Nope. It's impossible to throw a boom without losing your down charge. That's your single best weapon against Guile and is why I feel Guile is easier to crack than the shotos, who can DP whenever they want to.
    Also, good Guiles seems to be able to react and hit me out of Sumo Smashes with a jumping FP or just throw me out.
    I haven't really experienced counter throws after buttslams so I can't speak to that (you do have the Oochio which makes it pretty hard for anyone to throw you). However the jumping attacks are a very valid worry and one of the things that'll throw your game, however Guile must guess your buttslam for that because it's extremely hard to do it successfully on reaction. So it's a two-way gamble and you basically have two main options in that situation (out of far sweep range, but charged):

    1) Buttslam on reaction after the boom.

    - If Guile jump-attacks right away, you lose: you eat a jump attack and Guile likely retreats full screen.
    - If he doesn't, you win: your buttslam is either blocked and you can often follow up with HHS, your buttslam trades with his crouch FP and Guile is knocked down which is a Very Good Thing, or it cleanly hits (rare!)

    2) Don't move and stay charged.

    - If Guile jump-attacks right away, you clearly win: you can easily headbutt him out of the air. He's then knocked down for a while, and you're mobile and can close in on him for whatever wakeup games you want to do.
    - If he doesn't, you kind of lose: you block a boom and are pushed back.

    If you guess right as often as you guess wrong, on average the gains are bigger for you than they are for him so you'll come up on top. Of course, that implies you can get to HK buttslam range relavitely easily, which isn't that obvious.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    NO! u cant!!! the ONLY character who can store charge is Balrog! because of his dash low (DF) and headbutt (UB), Guile CANT store charge!!! the only way is doing the motion very fast (down back to forward to down back + P) or the flash kick motion...

    All of you are right. I just tested it. For some reason I thought he could. Shows how much I actually play as Guile :xeye:

    I swear to god though some people I play against can launch one so quick after a boom...
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    All of you are right. I just tested it. For some reason I thought he could. Shows how much I actually play as Guile :xeye:

    I swear to god though some people I play against can launch one so quick after a boom...




    I believe you can use charge partitioning in ST? Not sure, I only casually play Guile.


    Thelo, it sounds like your not playing upper level Guile players.

    Patience, most important thing when playing Guile. He recovers quickly after a Boom and has lots of options, cr.Roundhouse, Fierce, Backfist, back St.Forward, cr.Forward, etc.
    Need to work your way into range where you can Roundhose Buttslam on reaction to Boom. When your in range cr.Strong is a good counter to Guile's cr.Forward.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Thelo, it sounds like your not playing upper level Guile players.

    Patience, most important thing when playing Guile. He recovers quickly after a Boom and has lots of options, cr.Roundhouse, Fierce, Backfist, back St.Forward, cr.Forward, etc.
    Need to work your way into range where you can Roundhose Buttslam on reaction to Boom. When your in range cr.Strong is a good counter to Guile's cr.Forward.
    Had you actually read my posts, you might have noticed that this is exactly what I've suggested.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Bulldogging is often very difficult against him because of his incredible recovery after booms, a good Guile will throw you enough booms to push you back from blocking the booms so you won't actually advance anywhere. Some Hondas like jumping straight up with the controllable FP but once again that doesn't let you go anywhere and mistiming the jumps is dangerous. Against a good Guile, your only real option from a far distance is to just jump over booms or SK/MK buttslam through them instead.

    Bulldogging is one of the several options you need to have to get around Guile's booms and pokes. This matchup isn't about doing one thing or another thing, it's about having several different options and using one you don't think the Guile player is expecting. Bulldogging is useful if you expect the Guile player to wait to boom on reaction or to jump after throwing a boom, for example. Neutral jumping fierce and kicks are probably your best options overall, but they're susceptible to getting jump kicked and crap, so you can't do them every time.
    Technically you could also try a walk-up grab, but most Guiles will poke too much for that to be viable and you'll usually be a bit too far for it to be much of a surprise.

    If I can teach my Guile opponent to keep poking in expectation of me walking up and throwing him, that's great, I can eat him up with crouching strong, crouching forward, standing jab, standing forward, and crouching roundhouse. The reality is that Guile won't be poking with impunity because he expects those attacks and knows that they usually bust right through his pokes, and even where they trade Honda wins on damage. Don't expect to get walk-up throws very often or to try very often either, but your opponent has to know that you're capable of doing it.
    A crazy thing I like to do in combination with that is to use a buttslam to get close to him as he gets up, but purposefully do it early so I either land before he gets up, or it counts as a safe jump and I'm safe from reversal Flash Kicks anyway.

    The buttslam has more recovery than the flash kick has startup, meaning that they can never be safe jumps against Guile. I guess they can be safe jumps against someone like Boxer, but you have way better options anyway.
    Using your super to close in from a far distance is very safe, there's really not much Guile can do to punish or prevent it and it leaves you at the right distance to put the pressure.

    Guile can flash kick in between the first blocked hit and the second hit, and a good one will do it every time. Doesn't even have to be reversal timing. And if you do it from farther than midscreen, even if the Guile player isn't charging when you start the super, by the time the opening before the second hit comes around he'll already have a flash kick ready. Basically, don't use the super.
    The RK buttslam will go through the boom and catch Guile without a flash kick ready, at which point I usually tack on the MP HHS for some tick damage and am at the traditional good distance for Honda.

    You shouldn't usually do anything, you should mix it up as much as possible. Strong/fierce hands, walk up throw, headbutt, walk up poke, whatever, but if you train your opponent to always block after blocking a buttslam and you don't sometimes throw him for his troubles, you're letting him off the hook.
    Even if he decides to jumpkick towards you instead of throwing a boom, the buttslam has enough invincibility to serve as a good anti-air if you time it late.
    No, it basically gets ruined by Guile's jumping attacks, not that there's any reason for Guile to ever jump toward you anyway. He'll neutral jump or back jump with attacks or option-select airthrows sometimes, both of which beat your buttslam straight up, but he won't jump toward you.


    Also, mad possum, no, there's no charge partitioning in ST.
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  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,875 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    just of note: if you are using honda hk buttstomp to pass through sonic booms, you're doing something very wrong.

    if you are ever going to use the roundhouse buttstomp, you're going to need to be doing it near the same time he's throwing the sonic boom for it to have any decent chance of getting blocked.

    too many of guile's move anti-air honda out of his buttstomp and if the sonic boom is near you when you start your buttstomp, odd are they can use any of those moves to punish you at any time.

    if i play against a good guile, i'm looking to get within a f.roundhouse range. guile can't hit you from here, and with c.strong, s.strong, c.jab, and sometimes c.fierce, you can play a good footsie game while keeping your charge ready for anti air and sonic boom punishing. if they don't want to play with you, then hundred hand slap them to get your chip (and hope they don't flash kick) and hopefully work them into a corner.

    if guile spams jabs, you f. roundhouse, and advance.

    you can throw in the random fierce headbutt into your footsie game to score knockdowns off of potential low kicks but all in all you want to contain guile stead of having him push you back, which is what getting a blocked headbutt will potentially end up in.

    and just as a bit of useful knowledge, if you hit your super on guile as he is throwing his sonic boom, you'll get the ever amazing 2 hit no knockdown guile standing right in front of you situation, which is one of the best things that can happen to you in the matchup... doing damage to guile, getting right in his face with ochio potential and a stored charge... it doesn't get much better. its still very risky, as you pretty much have to do the super simulatenous with his soinc boom for it to hit like this, but in evo 2k6 i hit someone with it like 3-4 times in pools, so if you get a good read, its worth it to try.
    O_o
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Actually I think Guile gets frame advantage if you hit him with the 2-hit crap super. It's almost like the best case scenario for you if you're doing super is for it to get blocked and Guile to not have charge to interrupt it.

    Basically, don't use the super.
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  • EhondaEhonda Nothingness of Xband Joined: Posts: 399
    Let me correct something Honda can store a Charge. let me see if i can explain, perhaps there is just a difference in what storing is in this situation. If i do Sumo Smash from the down back to the up back position im still charged for a headbutt when i land i immediately do a fierce head butt and end up on the other side of the player. i may have video of this ill check it out. i do this all the time so its not a fluke thing.. works great against Blanka after a blocked BS. go right into HButt. Many are expecting a throw or hands no one ever expects a headbutt.
    aka Nothingness from xband
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