Evo2k4 Post Mortem

124

Comments

  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    f_man wrote:
    you tend to fall back on your television reference on numerous occasions. frankly, i dont see the parallel between the fighting game scene and tv. sure, the odds of a single viewer affecting the outcome of events on an episode of a show are slim. but i think thats where this differs. is it really impossible to make a difference on shoryuken? you paint a dismal picture of a scene run by the aristocratic elite upon the backs of peon majority-- a scene where change is impossible.

    personally, i believe change proves to be a difficult endeavor, but surely its not impossible. the authority listens not to the loudest man, but to the voices of many in agreement.

    i think its great that youre constantly expressing your opinion. what discourages me though is a lack of support from others. perhaps not enough people are in agreement with you to cause as rapid a change as desired.

    I'm not falling back on anything. Perhaps the example wasn't understood. Telling me to do it myself, when I have no desire to organize a tourney and would just rather play like 90% of the community, is just a ridiculous way to sidestep the complaints. You don't tell a sports commentator to get out there and do it himself since he's commenting on it. They're commentators, not athletes. I'm a player, not a tourney organizer. Anyone that decides to run a large-scale tourney is risking displeasing some peeps. Especially if the players' opinions isn't first and foremost.

    In all seriousness, it's clear to me that what made SF big in SoCal isn't what made it big in NorCal, otherwise, I have to believe some folks just played games and had NO IDEA of what made SF stand out and garner more respect than any other games of its' time. I feel they are just gamers that happened to like SF. In SoCal, sf was serious. Videogames weren't serious but SF, somehow, was. Honestly, it's not taken as seriously. They're just another bunch of games, it would seem. If it were such, ppl wouldn't be serious about competition over a decade later. The way in which games are chosen is ridiculous. If tourneys were run this way years ago, MK and KI would've been taken seriously by SFers. Aside from MK2, other fighters were fun but, they needed to be more than popular for the core of fighting fans to take wins and losses seriously. HELLA ppl played KI but next to no one took tourneys seriously and rightfully so. Sorry, just because a game has fans and is fun doesn't make it suitable for an SF tourney. There's a certain integrity to SF...or rather, there used to be.

    "you paint a dismal picture of a scene run by the aristocratic elite upon the backs of peon majority-- a scene where change is impossible."

    No, change is possible but, the rest of that line holds true. That's exactly what it is. If it weren't, the SRK community would be a part of MANY more decisions. They just aren't because some peeps think they know better than everyone else. How can I not have that same attitude in return? Evo isn't just a tourney made by SRK, it was clearly built on the SF scene. That's enough for me to believe that the SF scene should have a higher voice, as a whole, than anyone else. Everyone else piggy-backed(Aside from Tekken but tourneys for Tekken were never as consistent as SF until recently. It usually died after their early nationals). The attempt was made to bring all separate communities together instead of strengthening SF. Now look. The claim has been made that by 2007, no game in their line-up will have had an arcade release? So now it's only new games? I'm sorry but that's just fucking stupid. New does not equate with superiority. Quality of the fight should be first and foremost.

    And I talk to plenty of ppl and they are in total agreement. Just because they don't post doesn't mean anything. Some would rather just stop then complain. Did you notice that Seattle MVC2 players were absent for the first time in years? I know some that travelled across country to another tourney since shit didn't matter anymore. When Evo announced it was console, most of the Seattle players lost interest. These guys practice on console all of the time. I lived there. Amazingly, so did the Cannons. Yo, and there are posts that agree. Ppl just don't like repeating themselves. Soo dissed the changes early on and said that the tourney meant nothing. FFA had the World Championships of SF and yo, that shit is clearly more legitimate and that's why it was done. Just because I'm the only one who repeats himself doesn't mean I'm the only one talking. Look around. Posts are buried upon others, I'm sure, but they're there. In fact, take the other tourneys out and see where SF is really at. Ppl have been jumping ship for some time. It's hard to tell when there are more console heads coming to take their place.

    Let me make this clear. Even the Japanese think console is ridiculous. They hate it. That's why plenty didn't go. SRK MUST know this. Hell, they talk to Kuni. Unless Kuni lies to them, they know that the best players in the world have little respect for console tourneys. This is probably why the Japanese got special treatment regarding controls. It would've been nice to have some standard US controller set-up but, what for? US players will come just because they know most ppl will show up to Evo. Ppl show up to meet up and kick just as much for the tourney. There's no reason to go out of their way to appease those of us at HOME.

    Seriously, look around. You don't see much complaining because we're just changing groups of players. The old SF scene is diminishing and we're grabbing heads from other gaming communities and consoles. So, the numbers are bigger but, it ain't SF no more. How long have you been around? I've been around for over 10 years in the SF scene. Not the fighting game scene, the SF scene. The difference in the attitude and feel is so different it's disgusting for a die-hard like myself. SF was a scene with attitude and now it's pretty fairy flavored.

    Yo, a lot of ppl are disgusted but I think most take it as the scene dying like they knew it eventually would and not because ppl steered it off-course to jump quickly to the mainstream to garner more recognition for their efforts. SF was the whore. SRK was the pimp.

    Apoc.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    What about making top 8 round robin? It is more fair (no lucky bracket effect) and it gives more high quality matches for the DVD. The badis that it might take out a little of the emotion (not as big an issue in some games, MvC2 comes to mind). Another idea to combine fairness with emotion would be round robin and then the top 2 on round robin play regular finals. The player with most wins is considered champion of the winners bracket, so the other finalist would have to beat him twice (2 best of 5) to get the title...
  • tru3tn01tru3tn01 Joined: Posts: 278
    Apoc wrote:
    Seriously, look around. You don't see much complaining because we're just changing groups of players. The old SF scene is diminishing and we're grabbing heads from other gaming communities and consoles. So, the numbers are bigger but, it ain't SF no more. How long have you been around? I've been around for over 10 years in the SF scene. Not the fighting game scene, the SF scene. The difference in the attitude and feel is so different it's disgusting for a die-hard like myself. SF was a scene with attitude and now it's pretty fairy flavored.
    Exactly. Until srk artificially manufactured it beginning with evo2k3, there was no such thing as a "fighting game scene."

    I'm a new school player (although I was aware of and interested in the scene during the og sf2 days, it didn't get any farther than reading about Tomo and Watson in Gamepro) and I strongly agree with Apoc's point of view. When I first discovered srk back in early 2002 (Bang the Machine was a main topic of discussion and the first evo had just been announced), it was still about the street fighter community. In the 2+ years since then, I've been a first-hand witness to srk's "fall from grace."

    It has made every effort to turn sf from something special and unique into "just another game." The evo/b-series tournaments have morphed from the premier annual sf tournies into overblown, "quantity over quality," any-game-you-can-think-of conventions. The competive tournament aspect has taken a back seat to all this peripheral bull shit.

    I'm sure there's lots of people who feel a similar way -- both og players and new-schoolers like me who "get it." Unfortunately, it seems many of them have decided to just forget about he whole thing and move on. A choice that's certainly understandable, given srk's "shut up and trust us" method of dealing with people.

    Believe me, I started out as a total srk fanboy. It would have taken a lot to get me to be critical. Well this is it.

    -- tru3tn01
    "down for the cause"
  • Ho0v-ManHo0v-Man Something clever Joined: Posts: 500
    Drop dreamcast. X-Box all the way. :cool:

    The S-controller on X-Box is similar to dreamcast and it's also easy to find adapters for PS2 controllers to be compatible on X-Box. I've personally never had a problem with arcade stick compatibility on X-Box either.
    I don't have enough space for a really cool signature I found about vampire sex and whatnot. Screw you SRK...screw you.
  • FMJaguarFMJaguar Joined: Posts: 2,729 admin
    Apoc wrote:
    I'm not falling back on anything. Perhaps the example wasn't understood. Telling me to do it myself, when I have no desire to organize a tourney and would just rather play like 90% of the community, is just a ridiculous way to sidestep the complaints. You don't tell a sports commentator to get out there and do it himself since he's commenting on it. They're commentators, not athletes. I'm a player, not a tourney organizer. Anyone that decides to run a large-scale tourney is risking displeasing some peeps. Especially if the players' opinions isn't first and foremost.

    That is not excatly what i meant and i apologize if that is what i said. What i meant, and what the commentators do, are become a part of the process. Do you see a commentator say 'This NFL sucks, i'm not going to be a part of it' (DURING A GAME) , 'man why am i even on this show, the NFL doesn't care about me, noone cares, they are driving the sport into the ground so why bother'. Then he just sits there and bitches about it for the rest of the game. Is that what you want to hear when you go to look up your favorite sports team?
    Apoc wrote:
    Evo isn't just a tourney made by SRK, it was clearly built on the SF scene. That's enough for me to believe that the SF scene should have a higher voice, as a whole, than anyone else. Everyone else piggy-backed(Aside from Tekken but tourneys for Tekken were never as consistent as SF until recently. It usually died after their early nationals). The attempt was made to bring all separate communities together instead of strengthening SF. Now look. The claim has been made that by 2007, no game in their line-up will have had an arcade release? So now it's only new games? I'm sorry but that's just fucking stupid. New does not equate with superiority. Quality of the fight should be first and foremost.

    The B-series were SF championships, evo was titled 'Fighting Game Championships' (only the 3rd year of reminding people). Lets assume this is the first time you read the title.

    In reality we have both been saying the same thing all along, evo is moving away from being a sf event, and into becoming a fighting game scene event.

    The main difference is that i'm saying that this is a great event and we should use this as a catalyst for discussion about how to improve SF tournaments. Your saying 'OMG how can they do this to us', well really what have they done, interested more people in SF, brought the japanese here a few times (I didn't see them coming to MWC/ECC), and got other people interested in running all types of tournaments. You say at the 'expense' of people, but what did they really lose, a tournament that only existed in their mind to begin with? A few expensive arcade tournaments in the beginning that wouldn't have happened otherwise. What they lost is the fantasy that big daddy SRK is gonna buy them their dream SF tournament while they sit on their ass and talk about anime. In reality that was never going to happen.
    Apoc wrote:
    Ppl just don't like repeating themselves. Soo dissed the changes early on and said that the tourney meant nothing. FFA had the World Championships of SF and yo, that shit is clearly more legitimate and that's why it was done. Just because I'm the only one who repeats himself doesn't mean I'm the only one talking. Look around. Posts are buried upon others, I'm sure, but they're there. In fact, take the other tourneys out and see where SF is really at. Ppl have been jumping ship for some time. It's hard to tell when there are more console heads coming to take their place.

    Maybe the WCo3s was more legitamite in a sense that it was more comfortable for the current top US 3s players. But I don't think legit is the right word for it. Is that what a legit tournament is? wait for someone else to bring people to you, piss on that event then open your own... that is not a community i want to be a part of. That, if anything, is a recipe for self-destruction.
    Let me make this clear. Even the Japanese think console is ridiculous. They hate it. That's why plenty didn't go. SRK MUST know this. Hell, they talk to Kuni. Unless Kuni lies to them, they know that the best players in the world have little respect for console tourneys. This is probably why the Japanese got special treatment regarding controls. It would've been nice to have some standard US controller set-up but, what for? US players will come just because they know most ppl will show up to Evo. Ppl show up to meet up and kick just as much for the tourney. There's no reason to go out of their way to appease those of us at HOME.

    Plenty of japanese didn't go as opposed to what, the last tournament they were at, oh that was an SRK tournament too, as opposed to SBO IN JAPAN, as opposed to ECC/MWC? If the best players have no respect for consoles, they should consider the fact that the arcade is just a console too.
    Seriously, look around. You don't see much complaining because we're just changing groups of players. The old SF scene is diminishing and we're grabbing heads from other gaming communities and consoles. So, the numbers are bigger but, it ain't SF no more. How long have you been around? I've been around for over 10 years in the SF scene. Not the fighting game scene, the SF scene. The difference in the attitude and feel is so different it's disgusting for a die-hard like myself. SF was a scene with attitude and now it's pretty fairy flavored.

    Well as with a lot of people I started when WW was out, started playing people when CE was out, but didn't know there was a scene until MSH came out, which was 1995. Of course to you that may not be SF, but that was to set the time, not nessecarily the game.

    A lot of people came around when the marvel games came out, and the same conversation occured, sf is dying, game is less serious, etc.. etc.. To some degree it's true since no SF game since then has really been at the same level. But where capcom failed, we will succeed, capcom has limited resources, they can only work on so many games at a time. We have the community as a resource so if evo is putting on one tournament, wilson is putting on another, we could be talking about a whole seperate tournament on the side. Of course if your waiting for SRK to put on the tournament I can see the fustration. I can't say I share that fustration.
    Yo, a lot of ppl are disgusted but I think most take it as the scene dying like they knew it eventually would and not because ppl steered it off-course to jump quickly to the mainstream to garner more recognition for their efforts. SF was the whore. SRK was the pimp.

    Off what course? the course of trying to fit more people into the corners of the break, of bringing Wilson closer to heart attacks when all the other arcade tournaments collapse and you expect him to run the one real sf tournament a year and keep the scene alive? I think you were asleep in the car.

    Quantity over time and with the proper direction = quality, SF only had the scene you speak of BECAUSE it used to be popular, i know some people got a big head and thought it was because of them, but lets step back into reality. They had a system that worked, and it built a scene, so if we want a new scene now, we need a new system for it.

    The previous tournament format had reached the end of it's time, there were too many questions it did not have an answer for, and too many problems it could not overcome.

    The reality is that the community is taking matters into it's own hands for the good of SF. Even tho i am a big console supporter, i agree there are some problems with them. However it is still the right decision, once the problems with consoles are resolved, the arcade industry can be rebuilt from them, and then the tournaments will be held on the rebuilt arcade machines which will be better than any arcade tournament that ever existed. I wouldn't be suprised if either ,A) that change comes from japan because they already make cabinets, or B) we beat them to it and they adopt our system. Now that's my plan...

    Now you notice that some of that is in line with your suggestions:

    You suggested cabinets be built for EVO. That implementation wasn't good IMO, but the idea is in the right step, you just need to account for 360 and non-360 US players, japan players, and pad players. Currently the best solution is for everyone to bring their own, it could be the best next year, it could not be, we'll have to examine it.

    You suggested A3, what needs to happen is that we adopt a console version to at least keep the game in people's heads. As this transistion occurs, it'll become easier to find a way through a official capcom release, through securing some sort of legal emulation (sometimes companies release older games one newer systems that are nothing more than emulated copies, if capcom were to do this it would be perfect).

    You suggested side by side instead of head to head, i agree with you on that, there are just some details to be worked out along with the control issue in general.

    You suggested that SF not be 'associated' with inferior fighting games, fine, we get enough people for SF tournaments, it will have to have it's own day and then it's own tournament, the only reason other games were noticed is because there weren't enough SF players. In goes with the 2007 statement, hopefully we'll have enough players that we have a championship outside of evo, and evo just gets us more players by hosting whatever the top games are.

    I don't know why you say noone's listening to you. But we solve problems by going forward, not by going backwards.

    So my take is lets hurry up and RESOLVE the console issues so we can start moving forward. THAT is why i ask if you want to be a part of that, if not fine, but I just ask that you either A) be helpful, or B) refrain from your attempted sabotage of the process. It had to be started at some point, it's still a few years behind where it could be, but at least it's here now.

    So yes, i do sometimes question the community voice when it seems there is no plan in place... when the knee jerk reaction to every suggestion is to compare it to a standard that applied 10 years ago. That's not to say that plan is the greatest, or will even come to pass, but i think some people haven't really thought things through before posting, and cling to security blankets rather than to pursue things that will yield better results in a relatively short period of time.

    (BTW, copying posts before hitting submit = top tier)
  • ReiRei Nanto Suichou Ken! Joined: Posts: 820
    FMJaguar wrote:
    Your saying 'OMG how can they do this to us', well really what have they done, interested more people in SF, brought the japanese here a few times (I didn't see them coming to MWC/ECC), and got other people interested in running all types of tournaments.
    Remember when the Japanese went to Nebraska?

    APOC is right on the money. Here are the cliff notes of APOC's rant for those that are interested. SRK is starting the run things in a mainstream way that caters to the fanboys. Rather than complain, the old school pillars of the community are leaving the scene. This leads to SRK thinking everything is cool because the fanboys have all but replaced the retired old men.

    What's this mean to everyone else? Easy, if you are an arcade player like myself, plan on going somewhere else next year. If you are a console player, go to next year's evo.

    No need for arguments, just support the scene that supports you. (This means you APOC.)
  • FMJaguarFMJaguar Joined: Posts: 2,729 admin
    Remember when the Japanese went to Nebraska?

    Yes, which again is an example of good progress, evo did not include 3s, which prompted a good discussion on why 3s people weren't pulling their weight, which was responded to in a big way by driving up support for 3s and that tournament. I'm not so sure that would have happened had that huge debate not started.
    What's this mean to everyone else? Easy, if you are an arcade player like myself, plan on going somewhere else next year. If you are a console player, go to next year's evo.

    No need for arguments, just support the scene that supports you. (This means you APOC.)

    Is this a race now? the 'arcade' players and the 'console' players, should we go to the 'console' bathroom or the 'arcade' fountain. Funny that the largest 'console' tournament is run by arcade players, and the largest 'arcade' tournament is run by someone who said he would help with console tournaments if the need arose (at least i think thats what was said). OMG, noone is really for the community, the organizers are all liars, Wilson aka the champion of real sf, not dissing evo, not telling people to fuck evo and go to mwc, and the evil SRK, constantly trying to ruin mwc and ecc so that evo will be the only sf tourney, so they can sell us off to the euro players at a discount and finally be rid of us...

    This is a retarded angle, console vs arcade, whatever, we're all the same, just using a different controller, lets grow up and make this happen. If you happen to only go to one tournament, go to the one you like better, just at least try to have some common sense about things.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    It looks as though I can only post sentences...if this one gets through too.

    Apoc.

    I'm going to try and section my reply. Weak:(
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    FMJaguar wrote:
    That is not excatly what i meant and i apologize if that is what i said. What i meant, and what the commentators do, are become a part of the process. Do you see a commentator say 'This NFL sucks, i'm not going to be a part of it' (DURING A GAME) , 'man why am i even on this show, the NFL doesn't care about me, noone cares, they are driving the sport into the ground so why bother'. Then he just sits there and bitches about it for the rest of the game. Is that what you want to hear when you go to look up your favorite sports team?

    You're right. However, I've heard boxing commentators say that TPTB need to get their heads out of their asses and quit being so greedy so a dream match can happen. Usually, I fully agree with them. The best match-ups are the best thing for the sport and not making which camp makes the superior purse. We waited years for some really great bouts and therefore, the fighters were well past their primes and the matches, while popular, weren't close to what they should've been. Boxing is kind of on it's ass now and they're doing the same thing. They're telling everyone that everything is hot now because of all this new talent. Fact is, in the heavyweight division, all that talent can cancel eachother out. Wins and losses are more of a round robin effect because no one is that good. Hell, Lennox Lewis couldn't see anything left to prove because the division became a joke. His crowning achievement is win over a washed up Tyson. The promoters fucked the whole boxing scene up and now their scrambling to repair it. Luckily, their are different weight classes to pick up the slack. There's no back up classification for SF. You f*ck it up, it'll take years to rebuild or it will completely end.
    The B-series were SF championships, evo was titled 'Fighting Game Championships' (only the 3rd year of reminding people). Lets assume this is the first time you read the title.

    Then why call it Evo? Wasn't that supposed to send the idea that the scene was evolving? Yeah, it was. I've suggested changing the name many times. Nothing evolved, they just changed and switched shit up. The only evolution I've seen is in presentation with theme music(and I must say that Tragic was particularly more hype this year than years' past. He was on point with the announcing). If you'll recall(being on irc when I was), I suggested this years ago(years before Evo and I was scoffed at, lol) so, I believe it was implemented pretty late but, better late than never. Still, the tournament, itself, hasn't evolved one bit. 3s has evolved a bit but, I'd say that was kicked off by the 3s exhibition at B5, a Street Fighter tournament. To me "Evolution" directly relates itself to past SF tourneys with that term. Change the name and hype every other major as much as Evo. Of course, only do that if you care about the SF scene at all. Honestly, as long as SRK could gain more numbers, I think they'd drop SF altogether.
    cont...
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The main difference is that i'm saying that this is a great event and we should use this as a catalyst for discussion about how to improve SF tournaments. Your saying 'OMG how can they do this to us', well really what have they done, interested more people in SF, brought the japanese here a few times (I didn't see them coming to MWC/ECC), and got other people interested in running all types of tournaments. You say at the 'expense' of people, but what did they really lose, a tournament that only existed in their mind to begin with? A few expensive arcade tournaments in the beginning that wouldn't have happened otherwise. What they lost is the fantasy that big daddy SRK is gonna buy them their dream SF tournament while they sit on their ass and talk about anime. In reality that was never going to happen.

    We should use Evo as a catalyst for discussion on how to improve SF tourneys? Wtf? I'm sorry but, this years SF tourneys are exactly how NOT to do it. It was great of FFA to do 3s on cabs because, the sticks Evo provided(except for the Japanese players) were the most ridiculous pieces of shit ever used as a standard at a major. That's a stellar example of how to drop the ball on a serious issue. Somehow, that's not what I think you meant but, that's how NOT to do things. But then we could all walk around with are joysticks all day even if we have to wait hours through all the other games. Wait! That was inconvenient and lent itself stuff getting jacked. *sigh* Shit like this should've been clearly obvious well before Evo. I don't understand how the entire staff was one-minded in decisions like these. I have to believe things were sold as "the only thing we can do." At that point, ask the f*cking players if you can't come up with a reasonable alternative! Luckily, there's a feedback thread but, many didn't attend because the flaws were obvious beforehand. So, they're getting a lot of feedback from peeps that found some of this shit acceptable. It'd be better to post a sticky that says, "Where did we f*ck up?" Honestly ask the entire SF community what could've been better. Sure, a ton of ppl cried for arcade and that couldn't be done. Yo, they could've at least have taken a vote from the SF players so that at least one game could've been on cabs then. That's what folks wanted. If you can't do it, at least look like you tried. Take the money from those piece of shit sticks used in 3s and rent 5-7 cabs for the tourney that was voted on. F*ck it, I'd donate IF my moolah was going towards what the SF scene wanted. I'm not going to donate, ever, when decisions are made without regard to the SF community and I don't think that anyone else should either. Who wants to say "here's my money. do whatever you think is best?"

    As to what we really lost? I could make a list but no one wants me to explain something that long. It's enough for me to say we lost a lot of the attitude of competition. Luckily we get the finals and a slew of other games to pick up the slack.

    cont.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Maybe the WCo3s was more legitamite in a sense that it was more comfortable for the current top US 3s players. But I don't think legit is the right word for it. Is that what a legit tournament is? wait for someone else to bring people to you, piss on that event then open your own... that is not a community i want to be a part of. That, if anything, is a recipe for self-destruction.

    No, it was more legitimate because everyone was on an even level as far as controls. In fact, the best 3s players in the US, as a whole, are arcade players. So, a console tourney is not going to showcase what our best is. Maybe next year or the year after that when this new "standard" has been successfully shoved down our throats.

    Quite frankly, I'm more down with FFA's attitude than SRK's. I'd rather be a part of that community and I don't particularly love 3s at all. However, their players and attitude reflect more elements of the way SF is supposed to be than SRK does. There was a blatant cry by the public the moment that console was announced. The need to fill that concern was obvious. FFA heard the players and attempted to give them what they wanted. SRK heard the players scream for #R and they gave them XX. So, as you can see, I feel the mentality towards players, from FFA, is more admirable and appropriate than the attitude of SRK in regards to players' feelings. SRK would rather weed out all those that disagree so that, in the end, it "appears" that SRK is giving the players what they want. It's bs but, some will be fooled. Keep in mind I am not speculating here, these were voiced concerns by the players on both counts. FFA went and did it for the players. Yo, when I lived in Cali, FFA was aight but, not worth the drive from OC. Now, I'll make trips specifically to FFA from Vegas just to be around that type of truly competitive flavor. Funny how the FFA crowd looks a lot more like serious fighters than the SRK staff. Probably because THEY ARE.

    That isn't a recipe for self-destruction. That's a recipe for needed revolution. SRK took SF, which was good to them, and kicked it in the balls numerous times. Call it Evolution all you want but, the shit is anything but. It's regressing to an average gaming event that showcases the newest, and weakest, games. I can't wait to see CvS2 or 3s dropped for CFJ. I have firsthand info from Japanese testers telling me it's a piece of crap. But, it's new, and though the other games are better, there's no place for that at Evo.
    Plenty of japanese didn't go as opposed to what, the last tournament they were at, oh that was an SRK tournament too, as opposed to SBO IN JAPAN, as opposed to ECC/MWC? If the best players have no respect for consoles, they should consider the fact that the arcade is just a console too.

    How many returning Japanese? Daigo,Chikyuu and Mester. Some came cuz Daigo said that it would be free money. Why didn't all the players from last year and the year prior show? Because it was console. Hell, you could've just asked the Japanese at Evo. KO and KSK were cool with FFA's arcade tourney. Still, if it were console, they would've cried wack. They don't even think it's smart to practice 3s on console. No Superguns next year, lol. 3sers are up shit's creek unless, by some stroke of luck, there is no input lag on the ps2 version. If the input timing is anything like DC, the entire game involves MORE guessing. It won't even be the sae game. Stupid. Anyway, ask the Japanese what they think of console and then get back to me. As for them considering arcade a console too? Gotta tell them that. I'm just stating that they were dissatisfied with the console idea in the first place, just like Americans.

    I don't have a problem with consoles at all. I do have a problem with how they are implemented. Um...and Velcro isn't nearly enough. I don't care how inexpensive it is. If there's a better, more expensive alternative, drop a non-sf game to make money room for it.

    Just to interject, I am biased towards the SF scene. Other fighting game scenes were biased against SF for years. I swear if I see MK and ON.com haters getting tourney treatment at Evo without clearly apologizing and kissing Ryu's hairy Japanese butt, I'll puke. I have nothing against adding games, as I have said before. I even had Tekken and VF, among others, at a tourney I held. However, I didn't dis ONE SF game to make room for it. Anyway, been saying this shit for years, now.

    If anyone doesn't see how adding SSBM to Evo completely pisses on the fighting atmosphere, I can't explain it to them. To SRK, that's a good idea. I'm not even challenging the merits of the game. If the fighters were serious, as characters and the same engine was used, sweet. As is, watching Yoshi whoop on Mario is not hype for a fighting event. But then, there's a lot of non-fighting going on in fighters today. Still, seeing the princess on the big screen is a slap in the face to SF. Clearly, the fighting spirit of SF will be shit upon by the happy happy joy joy attitude of Mario vs Luigi. Why? Doesn't SSBM have its' own, thriving, scene? Why delude SF with it then? That isn't what SF needs...DUH. Know what I'm sayin'? cont...
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Quantity over time and with the proper direction = quality

    Bullshit. Although that is an American mentality. Quality, over time=quantity. SF tourneys grew every year regardless of adding games. It even garnered respect. Evo is already gathering laughs, now. Sorry, I'm not happy about the scene being made into a joke. No, you have integrity and stick by what made something good. Improve the marketing or presentation but, a bunch of morons attending won't equal quality. There was more quality at World's Finest(a stinkin' comic shop) then at the huge tourneys back then. Funny, the SF scene was spawned from that comic shop and not the throngs of players that played when it was new. It was the respect the competition and attitude brought in that spread and gained more respect.

    Was Alien vs. Predator quality? I'm sure by attendees(ticket sales) the movie company thinks it was quality. I'm not saying that it was completely without merit but, merging the 2 franchises(much like Evo) should've made things stellar. Instead it just pleased fanboys. YO! The fanboys were going to watch it anyway. Concentrate on a good story and seriously dope special effects and production and even folks that didn't care for the 2 separate series would've gotten wind and it would've been a bigger success. But let's just cut corners and be half-assed and just cross shit over for the numbers. No, quantity, over time, won't equal quality. It may bring in more numbers but, what kind of numbers do you want. I don't care if 10,000 peeps attend Evo if it's commonly viewed as a geek joke and is devoid of genuine respect. The latest SW trilogy is wack but it's making tons of bucks. Nope, quality is paramount BEFORE quantity. Otherwise you end up with a lot of crap. Well, that's my opinion anyway.
    SF only had the scene you speak of BECAUSE it used to be popular, i know some people got a big head and thought it was because of them, but lets step back into reality. They had a system that worked, and it built a scene, so if we want a new scene now, we need a new system for it.

    We disagree on why SF spoke to many ppl. In Cali, ppl are crazy diverse. Even after the heyday, SF gathered MORE respect. It had little to do with any system and everything to do with the way the players regarded and treated SF. That's how it got popular AFTER it died in Super and ST era. No one was playing then. How did it get rejuvenated? SFA1? I think the popularity theory is way off. First it was the game, then it died. Then it was the SF scene. SF never needed a new system to be hot. Players treated SF with the seriousness of a religion. Only SF. No other fighters. Now it's treated with the seriousness of Mario, lol. Maybe this is why shit is so lost. Ppl just don't understand what made SF special. They think it was just the games. MK was more popular for a split, in the US, and it never was regarded as highly as SF aside from bits in the midwest where they pretended it was the game and not the gimmick that sold MK. I'm glad folks that thought that way weren't a part of the scene. They just didn't get it at all.

    Shouldn't the concern be to have the greatest competition ever? The concern seems to be to get as many ppl to attend as possible regardless of the quality of players. If you need that many ppl, to where quality doesn't matter, in order to pay for the venue, then you're forcing the scene to grow prematurely. Get a smaller venue and pursue quality not numbers.
    The previous tournament format had reached the end of it's time, there were too many questions it did not have an answer for, and too many problems it could not overcome.

    Wtf? I'll believe that when you show me where SRK asked the community for alternatives and the entire community couldn't come up with ideas. SRK staff may not have been able to answer the problems but, 1,000 heads might have some more ideas than 20. B5 was dope. Evo2k2 could only have been superior had they had full tourneys for both A3 and 3s. Where are the problems? Ooooooooh! They wanted a bigger venue to be cool? Looks more like they compromised for the venue instead of compromising the venue for a superior tourney. Every problem was surmountable. Just because they chose not to or couldn't doesn't mean it couldn't be done. I have a clearly contrasting opinion here. iF B5 and Evo2k2 sucked, then I may agree with you. But they didn't. The fact is, they just wanted to do more in the organizing department. I suspect that they did so to get light off of the games and the players and more on themselves(if that's insulting, I can bring up shit that was said directly to me by Tom once). Cuz clearly, it isn't all about the players. Sure, players benefit, somewhat. However, it's a lie to say it's all about the players now.
    The reality is that the community is taking matters into it's own hands for the good of SF. Even tho i am a big console supporter, i agree there are some problems with them. However it is still the right decision, once the problems with consoles are resolved, the arcade industry can be rebuilt from them, and then the tournaments will be held on the rebuilt arcade machines which will be better than any arcade tournament that ever existed. I wouldn't be suprised if either ,A) that change comes from japan because they already make cabinets, or B) we beat them to it and they adopt our system. Now that's my plan... what's yours?

    My plan is simple. Buy or build a slew of cabs for console use. That way, the standard isn't compromised while pad and console stick lovers can get there shit too. EVERYone is happy, THEN. What do I hear? Too expensive? Well, I'm not buying that. Use the next 3 years' budget all at once. It's not as if you'd have to pay for them over and over and over. The tvs and consoles could be rented and the cabs broken down each year for easy storage. Hell, those cabs could be rented out to help other tourneys in Cali too. If that isn't good enough, blatantly post a sticky asking players for ideas or donations to make this happen(with a guarantee, mind you). Awww. That would make it a community event and not the Evo show:(
    cont...
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    You suggested cabinets be built for EVO. That implementation wasn't good IMO, but the idea is in the right step, you just need to account for 360 and non-360 US players, japan players, and pad players. Currently the best solution is for everyone to bring their own, it could be the best next year, it could not be, we'll have to examine it.

    Currently, that solution sucks sweaty donkey balls. If you can't do it properly, why do it? Another solution could be getting top quality sticks and have them at the exact measurements of a capcom deluxe cab. That means the height AND the distance from stick to stick are exactly the same. Then grab some stools. Since it's console, a stick can be unplugged for a pad but, you still have to be next to the opponent. For 3 years I've brought up the issue that we play against the Japanese in THEIR style on our turf. W...T....F!?! Of course they win consistently. The scales are imbalanced. I've played the Japanese on side by side MANY times and they fall for peripheral vison-joystick fakes like ANYone. Actually, moreso since they don't play that way. At B5 the Japanese respected the mindgame involved there. SF used to be so much more than merely reacting to the screen. It'd be nice to force the Japanese to sit RIGHT THE F*CK NEXT TO US with their sticks and us on ours. We're in the US. It's only fair to play American style SF. It isn't as if the Japanese have us play side by side when we go over there. That complaint has been ignored and an entire aspect of American SF is all but lost or forgotten. To me, that shows that SRK respects the Japanese more than they respect their own peeps. Want more proof? The Japanese had special treatment with sticks again this year. Americans WANTED to play on their sticks instead of the ones provided because they were so much better. Wtf is up with that? At least we agree on something here, though:)

    I won't discuss A3. SRK saw it dying and just encouraged it's death. That's so against the true SF mentality of keeping the good games alive. At least wait until the Japanese come over and ruin the game for us before just letting it drop. There are a lot of slow paced runaway games showcased now. It'd be nice to save the fighters that accent...FIGHTING.
    You suggested that SF not be 'associated' with inferior fighting games, fine, we get enough people for SF tournaments, it will have to have it's own day and then it's own tournament, the only reason other games were noticed is because there weren't enough SF players. In goes with the 2007 statement, hopefully we'll have enough players that we have a championship outside of evo, and evo just gets us more players by hosting whatever the top games are.

    I didn't mean to say that if it came across that way. We've lost so many players since 2k2. At that time, there were plenty of players. Only more were interested in attending. Now, that statement might be true but, it's only true because of the path SRK has taken.
    I don't know why you say noone's listening to you. But we solve problems by going forward, not by going backwards.

    I agree. However, if you go forward and it f*cks things up, then it's better to go back to the way it was done before it was broken. In this case, going forward is cool but, that doesn't mean to change things that work fine. It's like going through a maze. If you make the wrong turn, go back to where you were when you made it and move forward from there. As far as I'm concerned, the forward steps have taken us backward. I can't prove that, but I speculate that if you have a huge tourney that's all SF, now, it won't gather the players that Evo2k2 had and 2k2 would've had MORE players had they had full tourneys for both 3s and A3. I believe SF has lost more players than having the other games has gained. SF has not been enhanced at all. It's been downplayed. Wasn't the purpose to enhance SF? Yeah, that's what I was told.
    So my take is lets hurry up and RESOLVE the console issues so we can start moving forward. THAT is why i ask if you want to be a part of that, if not fine, but I just ask that you either A) be helpful, or B) refrain from your attempted sabotage of the process. It had to be started at some point, it's still a few years behind where it could be, but at least it's here now.

    Of course I'd be a part of that if I were really a part of that. However, it's all the SRK staff. I've already pointed to proof that SRK doesn't care what the players say as long as ppl attend.

    You may not see me as being helpful. I understand. However, if SRK seemed to listen to peeps, you'd think I were helpful. WIthout SRK support, I'm complaining. With their support, I'm contributing ideas(apprehensively though:( ). My positioned is viewed strictly by SRK's take on it.

    I'm surprised that you see my posts as an attempt at sabotage. I feel it's more like the last remnants of a voice from a scene that no one cares is all but gone. I'm just kicking and screaming into the night. My words are just the last bits of hope coming out of me. If my words do undermine what's going on? Good. Although that's incredibly doubtful. But if I undermine their killing of ideas the scene was built upon. GREAT! I stand for those ideas and am against whoring SF out for mere numbers. But seriously, my words have little effect but it feels good to vent and it's nice to know that some, like Tru3tn01, can see where I'm coming from and can understand cuz, it feels like most that would understand gave up already. I'll use my voice as much as I can cuz this shit is sad to me. I was so not hype this year. This shit's sapped my energy for the scene and that sucks.

    Anyway, if I'm sabotaging through my words than SRK has sabotaged SF by it's actions.

    I copy my shiet before I post too, heheh. It's just smart.

    Apoc.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • BuktoothBuktooth vietnamazing Joined: Posts: 1,713 mod
    Apoc wrote:
    rant about APEX
    It's been said many, many, many times. While it's true that APEX controlling Evo seeds did encourage certain people to go to tournaments, the reason why APEX isn't being used to seed Evo is because there was some heavy cheating going on back at Evo2K2. People would fill their tournaments with imaginary people and be rolling in the APEX points come Evo. Just the Pac North division seeding alone was severely fucked up at Evo2k2. The clear three best in norcal at the time were Ricky, Choi and Nelson. Out of those three, only Ricky had a top 3 seed.
    -Campbell Tran

    as of 12/02/09:

    me: did pz john ever give the japanese players their money
    bas: hahah of course no
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Buktooth88 wrote:
    It's been said many, many, many times. While it's true that APEX controlling Evo seeds did encourage certain people to go to tournaments, the reason why APEX isn't being used to seed Evo is because there was some heavy cheating going on back at Evo2K2. People would fill their tournaments with imaginary people and be rolling in the APEX points come Evo. Just the Pac North division seeding alone was severely fucked up at Evo2k2. The clear three best in norcal at the time were Ricky, Choi and Nelson. Out of those three, only Ricky had a top 3 seed.

    While that's a good reason, I don't recall any proof that these ppl were imaginary. Wait, I do recall one but, that wasn't PacNorth.

    Why not have it affect seeding and then have seeds picked by SRK based on the players' passed tourney records? Throw 'em up before Evo and see if there's any disagreement.

    The problem wasn't Apex affecting seeds, it was certain ppl, if what you're saying is true. Having Apex not affect seeds isn't a solution, imo. Perhaps appointing an Apex rep or 2 for each region that are willing to show up every tourney to legitimize results? That's a lot better than having an all but meaningless ranking system. Apex was hot when it first came out cuz that shit meant something. I stopped caring about locals and any non-majors the moment Apex was disregarded.

    If Apex doesn't reflect Evo's results, aside from the Japanese, at least somewhat closely, the rankings can't be viewed as legitimate. I think re-linking the 2 would be a smart idea. Perhaps then, every major could realistically use Apex as a seeding tool.

    I'm just saying, all it's good for now is to say "Our website hosts a ranking system!" Having it just to have it sucks.

    Apoc.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • ScampScamp Making Miracles! Joined: Posts: 1,003
    Extra stuff.

    WAY too much to reply to in the latest Apoc rant. And to nitpick over one or two point in the whole thing would be a discredit to the rest of it. Plus, I'm not an expert on much of what he said, but I do have my own opinion...

    The way I see it, tournaments are as good as the people that attend. Competition? Sure, that's nice, but most people know they aren't going to win. Heck, with most tournaments only giving prizes to the top three even top players know that there's a good chance they won't win jack.

    That being said, there is another problem IMO with the fighting game scene, and that's Capcom. Street Fighter just isn't what it once was, because Capcom fails to innovate and upgrade their games properly. I personally don't see the insult of adding Smash Brothers to the mix. It's a well-made fighter which improved upon another well-made fighter which was so good it spawned it's own community. Also the best selling console fighter of all time, but that's another story.

    Recently Capcom has pretty much mae crap. Other than Resident Evil games, can you name some good Capcom games in the last two years? Heck, other than remakes and sequels, can you name any? Case in point, Smash improved from 64 to melee by adding air-dodging, ground dodging, toning down throws and adding more characters and stages so that a lot of the broken stuff was easier to handle or removed altogether. You take Guilty Gear XX and go to Reloaded, and you'll find a much better game. Why? They tweaked all the characters so that the easy damage is gone and the balance is much, much better. Factor in Sammy's response to how badly they screwed up Reloaded the first time and you see how they were able to make Reloaded into such a good game. (Of course, Isuka is another story.)

    Now take Capcom. Never mind how they haven't released a new fighting game in three years or so. They take a popular game in Third Strike, and they 'upgrade' it by removing unblockables from Urien and Oro, making them weaker. Chun-Li? Ken? Yun? All the same. That decision puzzles me to no end. Furthermore, only a few characters ever change supers in tournament play, from what I've seen. (Makoto, Akuma, Elena, Remy, Dudley, Alex, Hugo, Necro, Oro, Ryu, and Yang are the only ones I've seen. That may seem like a lot, but I'd only make a strong case for Makoto, Dudley, Elena, Hugo and Yang.) Doesn't this seem like something that should be changed?

    Alpha 3 is still played in Japan, at least at A-cho from what I've seen. It seems to me that it still has much, much potential to become popular again. Why not take that game and add some tweaks, like Sammy did with GGXX? Give TOMO and his awesome V-Nash a better chance.

    Now Apoc says he has firsthand reports that CFJ sucks. Capcom just doesn't seem to have it, so I say why not add non-SF games?


    Furthermore I'd guess the scene is dying a bit simply because people are growing up. It's not exactly a prestigious thing in the US to be the Street Fighter champion. I like the scene because I can hang out with my friends and play. A good time at a tournament IMO has less to do with the tournament itself and moreso with the people that go. And you don't need to practice SF in order to hang out.
    I don't think this will ever change.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Well, CFJ is still testing. I'd rather think that's the reason they test the game. It sucks now but hopefully the testers get the main problems ironed out. It was said that part of the problem was that all of the systems, together, made one big mess. It's also really unbalanced in CLEAR favor of the Vampire characters.

    They aren't that close to finishing. As is turns out, there's going to be 6 or 7 characters per game represented. Also, the "All New" characters, like Ingrid, will all be coming from Capcom Fighting All Stars.

    I'm not saying that I have faith in them to make a great fighter anymore. They seem to love randomized guessing a lot lately.

    Apoc.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • N-KenN-Ken dipthrongjr jr Joined: Posts: 2,935
    I don't always agree with Apoc, but damn that guy is slick.

    I really don't understand WHY there is no A3 still, people have offered boards, people have offered cabs, and yet SRK still doesn't want to do it? What if it was completely self contained, i.e. the players run it all, handle maintenance, bring in the equipment, etc. But you still have it under the list of evo games, would that work? Or even better, since you want turnout for A3 before resubmitting it, howabout having it as a semi official tournament(ie what I described above) until it gets to a certain body count(64 or something, I dunno what you guys would want) and if it does, THEN you could start supporting it more. It wouldn't detract from the event, cause it wouldn't bother the rest, but if it DID get enough people then it would qualify as a game you want to run, thus making everyone happier.
    SHIPP ITT: hey vietcong SHIPP ITT: nice job sunday
    vietcong01: tyshipp SHIPP ITT: np, hud
    vietcong01: ok gl
  • ReiRei Nanto Suichou Ken! Joined: Posts: 820
    FMJaguar wrote:
    Is this a race now? the 'arcade' players and the 'console' players, should we go to the 'console' bathroom or the 'arcade' fountain. Funny that the largest 'console' tournament is run by arcade players, and the largest 'arcade' tournament is run by someone who said he would help with console tournaments if the need arose (at least i think thats what was said). OMG, noone is really for the community, the organizers are all liars, Wilson aka the champion of real sf, not dissing evo, not telling people to fuck evo and go to mwc, and the evil SRK, constantly trying to ruin mwc and ecc so that evo will be the only sf tourney, so they can sell us off to the euro players at a discount and finally be rid of us...

    This is a retarded angle, console vs arcade, whatever, we're all the same, just using a different controller, lets grow up and make this happen. If you happen to only go to one tournament, go to the one you like better, just at least try to have some common sense about things.
    Thanks for misunderstanding my post.

    All I'm saying is that some people like arcade, some people like console, and some people like both. People shouldn't be up in each others business because they think their format is better. If you don't like a tournament format, then don't go to those tournaments.

    Console and arcade are different formats. There is a lot of overlap, but people shouldn't expect the arcade players to jump at the chance to play on console, and vice versa.

    Most of all, I'm saying that people should a) do what they enjoy doing and b) give back to the scene that they enjoy.

    I should add that people should stop trying to run everyone else's life. Hypothetical example: If you don't like the fact that PS2 urien guardbreak happens later and you can't hit-confirm the lowfierce for the juggle like you can on arcade, you don't have to play in the PS2 tournament, but you shouldn't hate on those that do decide to enter.
  • Pat the GreatPat the Great UCB Street Fighter Alumni Joined: Posts: 562
    N-Ken wrote:
    I don't always agree with Apoc, but damn that guy is slick.

    I really don't understand WHY there is no A3 still, people have offered boards, people have offered cabs, and yet SRK still doesn't want to do it? What if it was completely self contained, i.e. the players run it all, handle maintenance, bring in the equipment, etc. But you still have it under the list of evo games, would that work? Or even better, since you want turnout for A3 before resubmitting it, howabout having it as a semi official tournament(ie what I described above) until it gets to a certain body count(64 or something, I dunno what you guys would want) and if it does, THEN you could start supporting it more. It wouldn't detract from the event, cause it wouldn't bother the rest, but if it DID get enough people then it would qualify as a game you want to run, thus making everyone happier.

    The way the Cannons decide which games go into Evo is generally based on the size of the scene. GGXX players wanted it in Evo, so we held big ass tournaments and the Cannons noticed. 3s players wanted it in Evo, so they did likewise. The A3 scene, as far as I can tell, never really organized its ass well enough to pull that off.
    -Pat the Great
    "You can't spell "scrub" without UCB."
    -Sam Yoon

    Originally posted by Pat the Great
    omg does doom do birthday parties and bar mitzvahs, too?

    quote: Originally posted by Lovely Kitsune
    Uh no, unless the Jewish people changed their traditions and a bar mitzvah now consists of a dude in a green cape throwing rocks at little boys.

    I guess eating 20 rocks to the face does prove that you're a man. I mean after all, isn't that what a bar mitzvah is? The celebration of a boy's transition into manhood?
  • TSTS pbbbbbbt... Joined: Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Yeah, A3 crowd has been consistent in not really liking any of the console ports (Saturn is best, but the hardest to find). So there haven't been as many tournaments post-CvS1, since it's not a hugely popular game. I'm ready to break down and hold tourneys on the DC version...this coming from a guy who plays Rose, and you can mash out of Rose's Level 2/3 anti-air super by mashing the kick buttons on the DC/PSX version of the game (btw, Really, Capcom? REALLY? Fuck you too.)
    Scamp wrote:
    Alpha 3 is still played in Japan, at least at A-cho from what I've seen. It seems to me that it still has much, much potential to become popular again. Why not take that game and add some tweaks, like Sammy did with GGXX? Give TOMO and his awesome V-Nash a better chance.

    It's TOMA, actually. Sorry to nitpick.
  • margalismargalis Joined: Posts: 714
    A3 is pretty damn dead. People complained that at Evo there was no A3 even in the BYOC room. There was an XvSF tourney, some random SNK games, but no A3. Lot's of people say ther like A3, but nobody makes any effort at all. All the people who chime in with "me too" in threads about A3, why not bring A3 to the BYOC room and play it? Not doing yourselves any favors...
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The way the Cannons decide which games go into Evo is generally based on the size of the scene. GGXX players wanted it in Evo, so we held big ass tournaments and the Cannons noticed. 3s players wanted it in Evo, so they did likewise. The A3 scene, as far as I can tell, never really organized its ass well enough to pull that off.

    No offense, Pat, but you HAD to use the word "generally" and even you knew it.

    See, the US NEVER got into VF aside from the smallest possible pockets. It was never even close to A3 in popularity. If it is now, it's ENTIRELY due to Evo's support.

    That's my problem. All the reasons and excuses are convenient and don't hold true across the board. It leads one to believe that SRK finds us stupid. I'm hella sick of them making decisions like they think they know better than everyone else, combined, YET they still turn around and act like they're dumb. It's insulting. Whatever excuse they give, the fact remains that, at least, VF had next to no popularity, and still doesn't even with Evo. Can someone point me to one US tourney for VF that is only VF? Of course not. Would that many ppl travel for VF if not for the draw of the other games as well? Of course not. VF has been held for 2 years and it was the least popular good game in the states and always has been. Um...that's kicking SF aside in order to force VF to become popular here.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not against VF and have held VF before, myself. However, doing it at the expense of good SF games is a slap in the face to the SFers that made Evo big. I'm not saying that SRK doesn't get major props for organizing large gatherings but, NONE of it would've happened if NOT for SF players in the first place. If you're gonna force a game into popularity again(like we did with ST), then you should respect the SF players first and foremost. That's how the shit got so big in the first place.

    It's the same attitude as giving the Japanese preferential treatment with controls. Get a clue and take care of home first. There'll be a lot less pissed and dissatisfied folks. But on the real, THEY DON'T CARE. Check Inkblot's response to Ohaya1234 when asked why CvS2 wasn't 2of3 even though it was said to have been. Inkblot told Ohaya that we turtle too much. Yo, when I couldn't have HF, I was jumped on being told I owed Choi money cuz he paid for his trip expecting that, among other complaints. But when ppl travel expecting CvS2 to be played as the Cannons said it would, it isn't even taken seriously. How about just saying "We fucked up and couldn't make it happen. Basically, what we said ended up being a lie because of that." That's the truth. HELL, that was one of the main reasons given for having console, because it would improve CvS2 in that way. So, we were lied to twice, right there. Do they cop to it? Course not. It doesn't gain props or make them look hot. Fuck being honest and being accountable for what you tell players. Replying jokingly to Ohayo's post was insulting to me when seeing the nice and mature way Ohayo asked the question. He just wanted an honest answer. Instead he got brushed aside with a laugh. Yeah, SRK cares what we think? Evo is for THEM and not for the players. Otherwise, they would answer to the players. I hear them talk about how much money they put into it but, being real, that AIN'T shit compared to the ammount of money ppl paid to travel and attend the event as well as compete. The players should get props for the turn-out and a big muthafuckin' "THANKS FOR MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR SRK TO DO THIS." They clearly forget that without the players' money, this shit can't even happen. No respect. It's time to fess up. Shit failed in every way that players foresaw. We didn't have to wait for Evo to see this. SRK didn't listen to us and the shit happened. Gee, the players were right about the DCs AND the controller issues? Go figure. Who would've thought that SRK posters would have more accurate insight into the problems of the event BEFORE it happened? SRK didn't. Player intelligence just isn't regarded at all. That shit is mad arrogant. In fact, I haven't seen one dominant player have that much arrogance in the scene. That shit is mad funny.

    Is it any wonder, now, after I've pointed out so much, that the SF scene is in jeopardy? SRK needs to respect SF much more and players will follow suit. This "new game" mentality makes the event into the dorky sausage fest of the year instead of the best tournament of the year. If the SF game is good or its' players highly respect it, hold it, before adding any other games. Be respectful to the players that got them there. It's not as if they don't have the ability to please everyone. They don't even try because they don't care.

    Fuck the mentality that says there will be no games that have had an arcade release by 2007. That's a recipe for mainstream dumbshit. It might as well be a Mario Party tourney.

    Let's make it clear: SFA3/ST/SF3:3s/CvS2/MvC2...hell, even HF, get so much respect from the players, SRK should honor that and those should be the frickin' staples of the tourneys. Are they going to drop Tekken Tag if Tekken 5 sucks(I'm sure it won't but, I'm making a point)? THAT would be dumb. Throwing out the more respected game because it's older? W...T...F?

    Keep the shit respectable. If the new games gather that much respect, then add 'em. If they don't(like CvS1), don't bother, no matter how many players like it "for fun" or combos. This is supposed to be a SERIOUS tourney with a serious competitive environment. To do that, you need to have games that are well respected, not games that are just new. Have 'em all if you can. If you can't? Knock off the least respected non-SF games first until the tourney is doable.

    It should be about integrity, not numbers. Quality over quantity(how long do I have to preach that shit before ppl get a clue?). Who cares if Evo gets so big it gets coverage if everyone watching knows it's a joke?

    Have some respect and take care of home, first. That means controls too. Things can be done to make everyone happy without compromising the integrity of the scene. SRK seems to think this is impossible or just doesn't care about the scene and only care about what it can do for them.

    If I'm insulting, I say stop insulting the SF scene that Evo was built upon before telling me to be less insulting.

    Apoc.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    margalis wrote:
    A3 is pretty damn dead. People complained that at Evo there was no A3 even in the BYOC room. There was an XvSF tourney, some random SNK games, but no A3. Lot's of people say ther like A3, but nobody makes any effort at all. All the people who chime in with "me too" in threads about A3, why not bring A3 to the BYOC room and play it? Not doing yourselves any favors...

    Firstly, because there is NO CONSOLE version...but...

    Because the tourney isn't official. XvsSF was never a respected tourney game, EVER. It's a scrub game for fun. More ppl like XvsSF than respect it. Also, there is no console version of SFA3(not a tourney version). So, it pretty much has to be official for ppl to play. Anything less is pretty insulting.

    I didn't make any effort because, unless it's announced officially, A3 players won't fly.

    They did try to put one up at Evo but, the controls were so horrible and HAD to be set on the table because the cords were too short. It was completely unplayable for me and I wasn't going to take an hour, while waiting, to get used to the sticks. I love A3 and I didn't bother playing it more than a few times. Not when jab dps come out as jumping jabs, lol. But this problem goes throughout the console issue.

    Seriously, I don't even play A3 anymore because folks follow SRK and SRK disses it. Therefore, the comp will die or be sub-par.

    If A3 were announced for next year, I'd get an x-box, modded, and play on mame. Or use my pc to play on kaillera. Without a serious competition, I'm not going to waste my time with a lag-fighter.

    At Evo2k2, we had already dropped A3 until it was announced for Evo. Then we dropped cvs2, lol.

    Ppl want to play the games they can compete at Evo on. It's as simple as that. If A3 isn't at Evo and there's no true console port, like me, players just stop playing. That's on the blame of Evo.

    I have yet to see a tourney, run by SRK, that had A3, that had a poor turn-out for it. It wouldn't happen. Unless, of course, they announced it like a month ahead of time.

    SRK can talk all the shit they want but, I'll believe that A3 shouldn't be there when they announce it early and they still have poor attendance. That never happened. SRK omitted A3 on their own and, therefore, contributed the MOST to the death of the A3 scene. It's pretty obvious that A3 needs Evo as much as VF does.

    Hell, I would plan the A3 tourney next year and run it with other A3 peeps if it were announced now. That way, if it were messed up or had poor attendance, then they could all laugh and say I told you so. But, that wouldn't happen. A3 players would be grateful for the showcasing and get back into it. Those, of course, that still play fighting games and haven't bailed yet. Hey, this way, all the heat would be on me. Of course, the idea that it would get a great turn-out and make SRK look like asses for the past 3 years is enough to deter them from the idea.

    But let me make this clear, my complaints have little to do with A3 and everything to do with the mentality of SRK. Why, when I post, do ppl, SOMEHOW, think that I'm talking about A3 underneath it all? WTF? Are the real points so incredibly hard to gather? Try reading my posts without SFA3 on the brain.

    Apoc.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • TSTS pbbbbbbt... Joined: Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    That said, let me talk about A3 some more.

    For what it's worth (not much, but), staffing will not be a problem if an A3 tourney were run at Evo. While I may not agree with the SRK staff's descision, I do understand it.

    I do think Apoc is correct. If SRK announced tommrow that CvS2 or MvC2 or whatever weren't going to be at Evo next year, there would be fewer tournaments for those games too. You may see MWC or ECC get a few more entries, because people spend their traveling money getting there instead, but it would definitely hurt the scene.

    I wouldn't go as far as to say that no A3 at Evo contributed to the scene's death...the fact is, people could have started holding their own tournaments and start the scene by themselves, like people started to do with GGX/X, or with 3S, but because of a couple of issues (ie somewhat shady ports, and the game is just old and sometimes hard to find), people decided not to. Woulda coulda shoulda, didn't. Would the game being at Evo helped the scene a lot, and made it much bigger than it is now? Fuck yes. And, to the best of my recollection no one has ever stated that it wouldn't matter if A3 was at Evo, because the game wouldn't have gained any populairty or momentum. That would be a retarded claim. But I find a statement like "if you can get 64 people for an A3 tourney, we'll see if we can throw it into Evolution," to flawed. It's hard to get 64 people for Marvel anymore, depending on where you live.

    Blah blah. It's my day off from work, so I'm posting a lot. I'm just some guy who misses A3 and wants it to be at a major. I'll probably still show at Evo next year.

    N-Ken: that's a good question. I honestly don't know if there are enough people with A3 boards to make that proposal, however. What would be nice is to have a World Championships of A3, like FFA did with 3S. Be hard to schedule (you couldn't have it at FFA, because if you have an A3 machine and a 3S cab in the same room, they start fighting). I will try to throw something together for Evo next year, even if it's just 5 Dreamcasts running A3 in the BYOC room...

    Edit: oh, I forgot. There's this thing that happens where if you use two incompatible sticks, the 2p one(?) won't register on DC A3. Sorta like in MvC2. I think they both have to be MAS sticks or something...? I dunno, I'll look into it. You win again, gravity...
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I am from Seattle although I am in no way saying that I am speaking for all players from Seattle. That being said I have spoken to some Seattle players about this past Evolution and next years Evolution and all that. The players I spoke with felt that because Evolution is console there's nothing really to look forward to anymore. We (the players in question and I) thought of Evolution 2k3 and 2k2 and even B5 as a culmination of our efforts for that year of gaming. The tournaments we played in and the practice sessions we had were, in at least some small way, thought of as practice for the major we all would be attending that year. That being said with the choice to put Evolution on console it seemed to us that the experience was cheapened. I myself hate console tournaments. I have never played in a console tournament (aside from maybe a 1 dollar for fun tournament at Cody's house or something) and I'm certainly not going to start now. I don't see the point in driving 1k miles to a console tournament when I won't drive 5 miles when there's one here.

    A lot of people talk about all games will be console so why not go console now? Well that's fine. Maybe someday all games will be console. However, Marvel and CvS 2 aren't console. These are the two main games being played in the US (vs. series and sf respectively) That statement may not hold 100% true for all areas but for the general majority I believe that to be true. These are arcade games that are still played by a great deal of people in the arcade. These aren't straight to console release with no arcade cabinets in existence. If a game comes out someday that I play that's console only then I will attend console tournaments because that's the only option. However, when you're talking about an arcade game being played on a console at the biggest tournament of the year that's just insulting.

    I realize that perhaps there are financial limitations to cabinets to be considered. However, I haven't personally heard this for a reason as to why the switch was made to console so if that's the case then perhaps I could be enlightened. The only reason I have read is that it's because all games will eventually be console and this will make the transition smoother when that happens. The scene here is fairly dead at the moment. A lot of people feel if there's no big tournament at the end of the year then the overall drive to play isn't there. Hopefully the next tournament will turn things around but you never know. The players I talked to thought that instead of Evolution we might as well go to ECC or something like that. If it'll be an arcade tournament then it would make more sense to go to that then to Evolution. We want to play an arcade game on in an arcade environment, meaning a cabinet at the very least. I realize my opinion won't matter to anyone really but I felt after reading a bit of this thread to give my input.

    In closing I had a great time at B5, Evo2k2 and Evo2k3 and I really hope that there will be a reason for me to go to Evo2k4. If not, ah well. BYE BYE
  • margalismargalis Joined: Posts: 714
    I was just making an aside about A3, I basically agree with most of what Apoc has said. (How much of it I read, anyway...)

    I think the basic summary is this: It's better to have a smaller number of tourneys run right.

    More isn't always better. It's nice for the community to agree on a small number of games they care about and focus on those games.

    I don't see the point in mixing 2d and 3d games. I can't think of many people that are genuinely great at both, and the communities don't overlap as much as you might think. Maybe there are some good organizational reasons, but it seems like a distraction.
    ---

    The Cannons' do have a point about game moving towards consoles. Sooner or later, the fighting games worth playing probably will be on consoles only for most people. I don't know what to do about that exactly, but standardized controls would be a step in the right direction. (No plugging and unplugging, no changing button configs, etc etc - it wastes time and standard controls = level playing field)
  • Pat the GreatPat the Great UCB Street Fighter Alumni Joined: Posts: 562
    someone was playing A3 in the BYOC room. IIRC, dr. b played a few games of Dramatic Battle. most people didn't even know what that was.
    -Pat the Great
    "You can't spell "scrub" without UCB."
    -Sam Yoon

    Originally posted by Pat the Great
    omg does doom do birthday parties and bar mitzvahs, too?

    quote: Originally posted by Lovely Kitsune
    Uh no, unless the Jewish people changed their traditions and a bar mitzvah now consists of a dude in a green cape throwing rocks at little boys.

    I guess eating 20 rocks to the face does prove that you're a man. I mean after all, isn't that what a bar mitzvah is? The celebration of a boy's transition into manhood?
  • ScampScamp Making Miracles! Joined: Posts: 1,003
    TS wrote:
    It's TOMA, actually. Sorry to nitpick.

    Nah, that's cool. I think what happened was I just watched too much Azumanga Daioh and my brain warped.

    I like the idea that someone mentioned earlier about 3-d games on one day and 2-d on the other. Among other reasons, this would give each tournament more room in which to run their games.
    I don't think this will ever change.
  • inkblotinkblot Alpha Assist Joined: Posts: 677 admin
    Rei wrote:
    All I'm saying is that some people like arcade, some people like console, and some people like both. People shouldn't be up in each others business because they think their format is better. If you don't like a tournament format, then don't go to those tournaments.

    This is a golden nugget of wisdom lost in the sea of discontent of the last 4 pages in this thread.

    Please apply this wonderful insight to Evo. We will do everything we can to run great tournaments, but within the Evo format (console). If this displeases you, it is up to you to make a difference in your community. Simply demanding that Evo accomodate your format isn't going to accomplish anything.

    Apoc, I'm talking to you. You will post tens of thousands of words on this forum, but won't lift a finger to help A3 community yourself. If you cared about the A3 community you would mobilize it. Get people to support what A3 scene there is at MWC. Organize local A3 tournaments. Do something.

    Instead you sit on your old-school ass and demand that I do something for you. I was at MWC -- were you? Go ahead... I can feel it coming; the deluge of Apoc-text about how SRK is killing everyone and we'd all be better off if I would just die. While you're writing it, keep in mind that in 2002 3s and A3 were in the exactly the same position -- both were exhibitions only. The only difference is that I personally really liked A3, but HATED 3s. Now 3s is the crowd-favorite tournament at Evo, and A3 is dead. I wonder how that happened?
    Oy.
  • PonderPonder SRK Tournament Director Joined: Posts: 404 admin
    margalis wrote:
    I was just making an aside about A3, I basically agree with most of what Apoc has said. (How much of it I read, anyway...)

    I don't have time to read any of Apoc's posts. I have no idea where he gets the time to write them. I thought I'd take some time to answer your questions, though.
    margalis wrote:
    I think the basic summary is this: It's better to have a smaller number of tourneys run right.

    Better than what? :)
    margalis wrote:
    More isn't always better. It's nice for the community to agree on a small number of games they care about and focus on those games.

    Staying small is relatively easy. Find an arcade, get in good with the manager, and you've got yourself a tourney. Until your local arcade closes, or doesn't get the latest game in because the manager's afraid to take the risk. What do you do then?
    margalis wrote:
    I don't see the point in mixing 2d and 3d games. I can't think of many people that are genuinely great at both, and the communities don't overlap as much as you might think. Maybe there are some good organizational reasons, but it seems like a distraction.

    Well, you hit the nail on the head: the biggest reason is organizational. I couldn't disagree with you more on the "seems like a distraction" point, however. Even if there were 0 overlap between the communities, pooling our resources gives us the ability to do things that we couldn't individually.

    The examples are endless. Without a certain headcount, we couldn't afford to rent decent facilities to run the tournament. That means the multiple bigscreens, seatings for finals, WWE style introductions, BYOC room, etc. go out the window. Furthermore, external partners just aren't interested in small time gamers. Namco, for example, may not have been intersted in showing Tekken 5 at EVO if it were only a 120 man Tekken tournament instead of a 750 man mega-tournament.
    margalis wrote:
    The Cannons' do have a point about game moving towards consoles. Sooner or later, the fighting games worth playing probably will be on consoles only for most people. I don't know what to do about that exactly, but standardized controls would be a step in the right direction. (No plugging and unplugging, no changing button configs, etc etc - it wastes time and standard controls = level playing field)

    It's sooner. Look at all the arcades that have closed across the nation in the past 2 years. How many of the ones that are still open will get GGXX #R? CFJ? Will Capcom even bother selling an arcade PCB in the states? Almost certainly not.

    Consoles are a standard accessible to everyone, everywhere. It would be silly not to adopt that standard. The only reasons not to are purely nostalgic, IMHO.
    Tony Cannon
    Shoryuken.com Tournament Director, GGPO.net guy, and Honorary Lew
  • ThyAllMightyThyAllMighty ImDaBes Joined: Posts: 1,727
    Yeah, I agree w/ margalis about standardized controls. But I think you guys should have setups similar to the japanese 3s setup, or that red arcade panel setup someone had built, except it should of been strapped to the table to have more stablility. Other than that and seating heights, I thought that Evo was quite a success. And Cannons, if you have problems building these things, I'm sure you could go to the Hardware section and ask the builders for help, the community is more willing to help than you think. My apologies if these topics were already brought up, there's a fuckload of pages I didn't want to browse through.
    i play fighting games for the drinking
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    inkblot wrote:
    This is a golden nugget of wisdom lost in the sea of discontent of the last 4 pages in this thread.

    Please apply this wonderful insight to Evo. We will do everything we can to run great tournaments, but within the Evo format (console). If this displeases you, it is up to you to make a difference in your community. Simply demanding that Evo accomodate your format isn't going to accomplish anything.

    Apoc, I'm talking to you. You will post tens of thousands of words on this forum, but won't lift a finger to help A3 community yourself. If you cared about the A3 community you would mobilize it. Get people to support what A3 scene there is at MWC. Organize local A3 tournaments. Do something.

    Instead you sit on your old-school ass and demand that I do something for you. I was at MWC -- were you? Go ahead... I can feel it coming; the deluge of Apoc-text about how SRK is killing everyone and we'd all be better off if I would just die. While you're writing it, keep in mind that in 2002 3s and A3 were in the exactly the same position -- both were exhibitions only. The only difference is that I personally really liked A3, but HATED 3s. Now 3s is the crowd-favorite tournament at Evo, and A3 is dead. I wonder how that happened?

    THAT'S a golden nugget of wisdom? I understand where Rei is coming from but to use his point to say "if you don't like it, don't show up." is ludicrous. You're not saying that to anyone but the SF crowd and you probably aren't realizing. Isn't it better for the players to make BOTH arcade and console players happy? But...you don't care about that.

    Moving along...don't take what I say so personally. You don't think my words have any merit so, why then, do you post the moment you see ppl agreeing with me? Damage control. If SF was a paramount concern, you wouldn't be hearing shit from me. I should apologize for feeling deceived all of these years, I'm sure. Hey, I backed you when NoCal players were saying you had your own agenda and it wasn't to better SF. Now, it's made clear that those peeps were correct and I was the dummy for not seeing it. I honestly believed that you were all about the SF scene. Still, I have nothing against you personally but, SF IS personal to me so I am passionate about what I say. However, Evo is personal to you, so, as an organizer, you take offense. I understand that. Just don't make the mistake of confusing my bashing of your decisions as a bashing on you. It saddens me that you obviously take personal offense to my words rather than just understanding that I am only one voice. I've already said that you'll obviously have throngs of Smashers showing up to take the place of SFers. Isn't that enough? To you, that's a success. I'm not touting the death of Evo, I'm touting the death of SF as caused by SRK. You STILL play dumb after all of these years and act as if you don't understand that the decisions made for Evo affect the entire SF scene, here. You obsolve yourself of that responsibility but have no problem taking props for what you do. Sorry, you're full of shit there. I don't think, and never have believed, that you are too stupid to understand the repercussions of your decisions regarding Evo. PsiANyd laid a perfect example out for you.

    Also, when you make a mistake, you won't cop to it whereas I remember you and other NorCal folks forcing me to swallow my own shit because of how you felt. Yo, at the very LEAST, CvS2 players were lied to. You said that we'd have 2of3 matches because of console(the main point as to why it was a good idea for Evo to be completely console). You've shown no humility there because these tournies have made you arrogant. Yet, the whole reason to go AGAINST the GG players was because you had already stated that GGXX would be the game and a FEW would feel cheated. WT FLYING FUCK!?! It's ok to dis the ENTIRE CvS2 crowd but not a FEW GG players? There hasn't been so much as an apology for this. Not only are both situations completely fucked up, but the thinking doesn't even follow suit. It's convenient. Conveniently stupid, I mean. If someone of your intelligence is going to act as if you can't see the parallel here then, you MUST think everyone else is stupid.

    I won't lift a finger to help the A3 community? Unfortunately, I haven't gotten myself into a position to do that. Life gets in the way sometimes. If I had your resources, I would easily do it. It wouldn't even be a thought. I'd hold it just as a matter of principal. I'd hold it just so that those interested in getting into the good SFs, no matter how old they are, would know that their game, since it was tite, would always have a place for competition. Some see now and wonder if they should bother getting into CvS2 cuz, it's getting old and won't be there in 3 years so, if it takes a year to get good without an arcade, and you only get a years' tourney time out of it, it isn't worth it. Like PsiANyd was saying, ppl want to know they have that culmination to look forward to. You already let A3 players know that it was over when it wasn't announced for Evo2k2. That's when ppl stopped playing. When ppl knew they had nothing else to look forward to. 3s picked up because it was newer and relatively underexplored seeing as how the majority thought it was a piece of crap. You wonder how what happened? Yo, take 3s out of the line up and watch it diminish to nothing. Hell, take away any close console port and watch the 3s scene struggle to stay afloat. Again, quit acting stupid. A3's omission at Evos was the death of the A3 scene. Ppl stopped playing it in arcades and arcades started losing them cuz they weren't making jack anymore since no one was playing for the big tourney anymore. You want to blame shit on A3 players, and myself, as if you're incapable of understanding how this works. Like it or not, Evo decisions affect the entire community. It's time to stop pretending like you don't know this. It's insulting. The more you act stupid and insult ppls' intelligence here, the more ppl won't "just trust you." You're a smart guy. There's no way in hell that you're as stupid as you pretend to be.

    Here, let's do a "do over." Coo? Let's act like it's time for Evo2k2 again and announce A3 as official for next Evo. Then, we'll see if there's a huge turn-out the next year! Hey, it's an opportunity to prove me wrong legitimately. No, pointing the finger at me and telling me to do it myself says NOTHING about the points I've made. It's, simply, a poor attempt to discredit my words without actually having to deal with them. Doing this little experiment would be great for everyone. You could make me look dumb while satisfying a dying part of the SF scene! I know, I know. The SF scene doesn't mean shit to you.

    As anyone can plainly see, this has really little to do with A3 and more about how, and how badly, some decisions are made regarding the SF scene. Like it or not, a decision for Evo is a decision for the SF scene. Don't be thick.

    And no, I never ever wanted you to do something for me. I was under the impression that you respected the SF scene. I didn't realize that you just wanted to pimp it. I guess I'm a little slow.

    Also, I make no mention of you dying. Although, the conveniently stupid decisions should die. That's what I'm talking about. If you don't like the impression it gives of you(especially when I cite specific decisions and excuses)then realize that it's what you DO that I'm talking about. If you don't like how what you do sounds in text, then do something that might sound good in text. Don't trip on me for telling it like it is. You sidestep issues while trying to say that you're not giving the SF scene the middle finger. Sure, you don't HAVE to explain shit or talk about it, but mindlessly acting like it isn't there is a big fuck you to a lot of ppl. It wouldn't be so bad if you just came out and said that you didn't give a crap about the SF scene and that you're doing this shit all for you. Then, all the bs is understandable.

    If FFA had not had their 3s tourney, there would've been a much larger backlash here. FFA bailed you out quite a bit. I mean, if you don't like reading complaints, that is. They saved you some of the hassle. SRK should be given them an award for steppin' up to fill a need of the SF scene. Instead, you stand by as some say things like 3s at FFA was divisive.

    Seriously, it all won't matter in the end. The scene will separate itself, of course. I mean, since you don't care and if peeps don't like, they don't have to show up. No one wants to feel like their voice doesn't matter when they fork up the money to travel to Evo. Eventually, you'll get what you give from the SF scene. But really, who cares? I mean, as long as there's peeps filling up your tourney, it's all good. So, why even address me. You don't even have the courtesy to directly respond to anything I've said, anywhere,yet, you address me to talk shit? Hey, I understand how this shit could make anyone defensive. But after calming down, it should be obvious where I'm coming from. I'm trying to get you to realize that nothing of what you'd done wouldn't have happened if players hadn't trusted you and came to the tourneys. The players deserve HELLA respect EVEN if they are JUST players. Afterall, THEY are what make Evo happen. You just organize it. Get off of your high horse and pay attention to that because, it's evident that a thought like that doesn't occur to you.

    Hey, we trusted you, and now things are big, so...I guess it's cool to turn your back on folks now, if they don't want to get in line and follow you. I recall politicians and mobsters going through an issue like this and it didn't turn out pretty. Luckily, this is just a little hobby. Still, at the very least, don't spit on it. Jeez. Have a lil reverence for what got Evo where it is. Otherwise, you're just arrogant, aren't you? If the players aren't given the majority of the credit, you're saying that you deserve it all. Other than organizing, the players are what make it happen. Without them, you have nothing but lost money and a fucking hall or two for a weekend. I guess I suck because I take credit from you and give it to those who pay the money to travel. I'm an ass. I can't help it.

    At least man-up to Ohayo's post. I'm sure he couldn't have been as offensive as I was. Why doesn't he deserve a response. I must've missed something. I can understand why you don't respond to shit I say. I know that. But not other members. Again, I must be slow.

    Apoc.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • PonderPonder SRK Tournament Director Joined: Posts: 404 admin
    Apoc wrote:
    Yo, at the very LEAST, CvS2 players were lied to. You said that we'd have 2of3 matches because of console(the main point as to why it was a good idea for Evo to be completely console).

    http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63590

    We said semi-finals would be 2 games, when in fact they were one due to unforseen technical difficulties. Damn, we're evil.

    :mad:
    Tony Cannon
    Shoryuken.com Tournament Director, GGPO.net guy, and Honorary Lew
  • FMJaguarFMJaguar Joined: Posts: 2,729 admin
    Apoc makes points about what he sees, but they don't nessecarily represent the 'community', just the part of it that he chooses to count. What i've come to realize is that maybe i do the same. I feel that my views better represent the people that created the need for an evolution tournament in the first place, but i would rather not exclude family members at the reunion.

    I've been thinking a lot about this over the few days and i think we can come to some agreement on this. What is right is that we have somewhat of a seperation of the scene, what we want to fix is the idea of them becoming seperate scenes and people bashing the other side and just creating an unfriendly atmosphere, not that there shouldn't be competition, but not over this, it should be in the games.

    The FFA tourney was a good idea, a community creating an event, that accompanies another community driven (yes that is correct) event.

    I think the best thing to do is to adopt the idea into evo as follows:

    Day 1, or whatever day FFA would be analogous to:
    Arcade/Supergun
    A3
    ST
    HF
    TBD (To be discussed)
    Maybe it's EVO + Arcade SF championships or something, if this portion has to be held offsite. Maybe wilson can come down and run the one before evo at FFA, or maybe we can get the superguns in one of the halls.


    Day 2-*
    EVO as normal without ST, but with AE

    I think that would maximize both camps, and allow the evo tournies to fill up without worrying about other games, and people who want old school tournaments will have that too.

    Thoughts?
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    FMJaguar wrote:
    Apoc makes points about what he sees, but they don't nessecarily represent the 'community', just the part of it that he chooses to count. What i've come to realize is that maybe i do the same. I feel that my views better represent the people that created the need for an evolution tournament in the first place, but i would rather not exclude family members at the reunion.

    I've been thinking a lot about this over the few days and i think we can come to some agreement on this. What is right is that we have somewhat of a seperation of the scene, what we want to fix is the idea of them becoming seperate scenes and people bashing the other side and just creating an unfriendly atmosphere, not that there shouldn't be competition, but not over this, it should be in the games.

    The FFA tourney was a good idea, a community creating an event, that accompanies another community driven (yes that is correct) event.

    I think the best thing to do is to adopt the idea into evo as follows:

    Day 1, or whatever day FFA would be analogous to:
    Arcade/Supergun
    A3
    ST
    HF
    TBD (To be discussed)
    Maybe it's EVO + Arcade SF championships or something, if this portion has to be held offsite. Maybe wilson can come down and run the one before evo at FFA, or maybe we can get the superguns in one of the halls.


    Day 2-*
    EVO as normal without ST, but with AE

    I think that would maximize both camps, and allow the evo tournies to fill up without worrying about other games, and people who want old school tournaments will have that too.

    Thoughts?

    I completely agree. That is probably my main issue. Moving forward does not automatically entail leaving a portion of the scene behind. The comparison to a family reunion applies perfectly. Perhaps that's why I feel that they just don't care. Instead of even trying to satisfy those that made Evo what it is, they are trying to gather more mainstream recognition for themselves. I'm not against them going mainstream, but not at the expense of the foundation scene.

    The fact that Evo is now separating the scene is a point that seems to be lost on them. Maybe, I'm mistaken. It is clear, however, that there is no desire to satisfy everyone. That is unfortunate.

    Another issue that is glaring to me is that SRK seems to link the arcade standard of tourney set-up with the arcade industry itself. That is a HUGE mistake. Just because arcades are closing up does not mean that we should abandon a proven and well-respected standard for something less so. That's what's been done. Yes, there were some great matches at Evo this year but, only half of the ammount that there could've been because half of the players, even the ones that like console, lost because of the control issues. So, even if it was only 1 or 2 matches per player, those matches may have, just as well, not taken place since those players could not perform 100% EVERY TIME THEY PLAYED. Because of this, some results are skewed and therefore, can't really be taken seriously. That's too big a price to pay at a tourney that, before, was prestigious.

    It doesn't matter where arcades are at. The tourney set-up was never in question with the players. I'm all for making room for pad players but not at the expense of other players. That IS NOT A solution.

    Yo, for years ppl have been practicing at home on console and yet, we always had the majors on specific controls. Hell, there was a time when folks would not travel unless perfect 360's were clearly advertised so that the players could ensure accuracy. Now, it really doesn't matter what sticks they are. The simple fact that things can shift, even by a millimeter, is enough to make a dp into a fireball and vice versa. SRK, being around as long as it has, should understand this. Now, it seems that they're just saying "fuck it" and think that it's dope that they obsolve themselves of any responsibility as far as controls since we can bring our own. That, alone, compromises the integrity of the event.

    I agree, find a way to please everyone. Don't just make drastic changes while pretending it isn't a big deal. That's insulting. There is no respect given to the scene when, in reality, there wouldn't be an Evo if not for the players that have been loyal. Some loyalty to those players, first, is in order.

    I don't post complaints unless the issue is serious in regards to the scene. Instead of taking things personally, ppl need to to take things as legitimate complaints that NEED addressing. Otherwise, Evo doesn't deserve our support anymore. SRK needs to start acting like it cares about the SF scene as a whole. It wasn't consoles that gave the tourney clout.

    In closing, only fix the shit that IS broken. Arcades closing have nothing to do with the arcade set up and standard for controls. I'm not saying that every player should adhere to these standards. By all means, bring pad players in, that's great. But don't kill the tourney for those that appreciated the tried and true standard. There was a great set up for the Japanese controls for 3s. There should've been(if we wanted things equal) an American set up with 360's or whatever Americans voted for. Only catering to the Japanese shows a lack of respect for the players HERE. In reality, I'm only asking SRK to treat Americans with the same respect.

    Sorry for repeating myself so much but, it's hard to tell when things are getting through.

    Apoc.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Ponder wrote:
    http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63590

    We said semi-finals would be 2 games, when in fact they were one due to unforseen technical difficulties. Damn, we're evil.

    :mad:

    It's nice that you say something regarding the issue but, an explanation of what the technical difficulties were would be nice considering that a lot of ppl were duped without given a justification. Or are we too lowly to be deserving of a reason why the tourney didn't go as promised?

    You're not evil, but it's fucked up not to apologize or even acknowledge that something was done fucked up. Shit happens but, I recall my mistakes being shoved down my throat and I had to cop to 'em. Same with ECC4 iirc. If you make a big mistake, cop to it and give an open apology to the players who, afterall, paid to travel to a 2of3 tourney and didn't get what they were promised. That's just a matter of showing some respect for those that offered their patronage.

    The fact that I need to tell u this when it should be obvious, at least, from past issues, is beyond me.

    Seriously, any other perspective, aside from your own, just doesn't deserve any attention. To you, this was, obviously, no big deal. To the players, it was. It's only respectful to treat the issue with some respect,at least, with regard to the players.

    Both your reply and Tom's reply send a message I don't think that you're intending to send. It'd be nice to let the players know that they matter.

    It wasn't evil but, no explanation is just disrespectful.

    I swear that anything that doesn't make you all look like hot shit is tossed aside and ignored. God forbid you answer to anyone, let alone the players that make your event possible. Fucking arrogant.

    I would expect a sticky apologizing for the mishap. Of course, feeling respected, the players would be understanding for the most part. Your response, however, shows a complete lack of respect. Again, that must not matter.

    Apoc.
    Team USA 2002

    Mirc:EFnet:#gamecombos-for your combo and match vid fix! Also, go check Dr.Funkenstein's hub!

    Status: Retired

    "a thug changes, n' luv changes, and best friends become strangehs...word up."- Nas- The Message

    The End is near...

    I AM the counter.
  • inkblotinkblot Alpha Assist Joined: Posts: 677 admin
    Apoc wrote:
    It's nice that you say something regarding the issue but, an explanation of what the technical difficulties were would be nice considering that a lot of ppl were duped without given a justification.

    Everyone knows what the technical difficulties were. ohayo1234 even says exactly what they were, and offers a possible solution. If you were actually at the CvS2 tournament, you would know that a (brief) explanation was given to all the players before and during the tournament.

    In other words, it's been covered. Multiple times. Don't assume otherwise just because you weren't personally there the dozen times it was explained on Sunday, or because you didn't read ohayo's post closely enough to see that he actually understands quite well what the problems were.

    This thread has accomplished its purpose. Thank you everyone for the constructive feedback and suggestions.
    Oy.
  • N-KenN-Ken dipthrongjr jr Joined: Posts: 2,935
    Hey ink or Ponder, I'm curious, what would it take for A3 to be at evo in tourney form this next go around? I don't think saying that the scene has to be alive for it to work really has much merit, since it turns in to a whole circular logic thing, ie The scene would really only start thriving if there was a reason to practice but there's no reason to practice unless it's at the big one, but it can't be there unless it has a scene...(etc.) I'm willing to spearhead what I can if that's what it takes, just my point of view is that there needs to be another real SF game at evo, the only one right now is ST. And the problem with doing anything unofficial is that most heads just won't make the extra effort for something unofficial. I suppose my final question is, is that if the players can provide a viable format, and can run it themselves(or whatever) would you put it in as an official game?
    SHIPP ITT: hey vietcong SHIPP ITT: nice job sunday
    vietcong01: tyshipp SHIPP ITT: np, hud
    vietcong01: ok gl
  • inkblotinkblot Alpha Assist Joined: Posts: 677 admin
    N-Ken wrote:
    Hey ink or Ponder, I'm curious, what would it take for A3 to be at evo in tourney form this next go around? I don't think saying that the scene has to be alive for it to work really has much merit, since it turns in to a whole circular logic thing.

    I don't think it's circular at all. Look at 3s and GGXX.
    Oy.
This discussion has been closed.