Spark/SparkCE Optical Joystick Sensor for JLF

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Comments

  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    I remember hitting a spot yesterday when it would cause the motherboard to stop registering any inputs on a PC (buttons & directions). There was also a point just before this where some of the directions would mash together.

    Aside from that I do not notice much change in sensitivity at all. Very subtle..
    I take it this was at the very far end of sensitivity, where it become uber sensitive? What pcb was it using?
    The full number of turns available on the pot is huge; one complete turn won't affect the sensitivity much, but you have a lot of those full turns available in the full range. I guarantee you there is a noticable difference between 50 ohms and 100 ohms.
  • gahrlinggahrling Better safe than Hori.. Joined: Posts: 3,968
    I take it this was at the very far end of sensitivity, where it become uber sensitive? What pcb was it using?


    1. Yes - hyper sensitive

    2. Kitty TE, 360 TE Rev.B, 360 TE-S, 360 Fightpad, PS360, MC Cthulhu, ChImp SMD. All were dual modded aside from PS360 & ChImp SMD.

    And yeah, the number of turns is myriad. What is the most accurate way of testing this with a multimeter?
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    on my CE a FULL turn will go about 3ohms...
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    What is the most accurate way of testing this with a multimeter?
    Unplug the power cable, and use the meter on the two outside prongs of the three prong power cable.
  • gahrlinggahrling Better safe than Hori.. Joined: Posts: 3,968
    Unplug the power cable, and use the meter on the two outside prongs of the three prong power cable.


    Ok, will try that out.
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    I'll bring the stick to OFC this saturday to try out in the eightarc...
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • jdm714jdm714 Blue Blue Glass Moon Joined: Posts: 12,830
    I'll bring the PS360+ for you.
    J&J SoCal Modding: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/113434/
    Visit J&J SoCal Modding's Blog for review of new Arcade Parts: http://jjsocalmodding.blogspot.com
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,213 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Jesus, that's a lot. Thanks for the help!

    Thanks, tell your friends. Tell your friends it works.

    oh, they know it works compared to that other brand revived from the dead.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • RoboKrikitRoboKrikit nuclear Joined: Posts: 1,943
    Joe about covered the stick gamut, so I focused on consoles tonight.

    Using the following 3 setups:

    * VLX 360 dual mod w/VLX Kitty
    * Round 2 TE 360 dual mod w/TE Kitty
    * Round 1 TE 360 dual mod w/MC Cthulhu

    These systems were tested, all successfully:

    Xbox360
    PS3
    PS2
    PSX
    Wii (GameCube port)
    Saturn
    PC Engine
    SNES
    NES

    I measured sensitivity as best as I could, at the low, high, and mid sensitivity ranges, and it seemed to be the same on PSX/PS2 as it was over USB.


    These PSX/PS2 converters were also tested, all successfully:

    EMS Total Control Plus -> Dreamcast
    Xtokki 360 -> Xbox360/PC
    Pelican -> PS3/PC

    My last DC cable was given away, so I was only able to test Dreamcast via the converter. When I get a chance I'll test it native.


    I was able to reproduce the weird input scenario that I mentioned in my earlier post on both of the other setups at the same sensitivity settings. The spot is just barely above the Right direction, but not quite Up-Right. It can be triggered from the actuation point all the way to the gate (tested on square). On the Kitty/Cthulhu PCBs, the output is Neutral, while on the 360 boards, the output seems to be (on Win7 game controller panel) Down-Left.

    Below 40Ω, this is easily reproduced in-game. Holding the stick at the right spot consistently produces the errant direction; on 360 SF4, a character on the 2P side walks left while holding just above right.

    Between 40-55Ω is it harder to reproduce, more so as the sensitivity is lowered. It can be hard to draw a bead on, so an input display should be used to spot the sporadic Left/Neutral direction.

    At 55Ω and higher I couldn't reproduce a single instance of the issue in 10 minutes of trying.

    I did double-check the components on the PCB, and everything looks properly aligned. Is anyone else able to reproduce this?


    For me, the range from 55Ω to max is where I want to be anyway. This is easily my favorite stick for fighting games in terms of feel and execution, and the optional adjustment is a big plus. :D

    When I get a chance I'll test vs some other single PCB setups, and test with the GT-C and GT-Y gates.
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    to the other beta testers... just curious... if you mark a spot next to the screw so you know where one full rotation counts in the spark how far up or down does the ohms go? I stated that with my CE it will rise or drop 3ohms with fun turn of the screw...

    aside from that I say this is a great product! I want more for the other sticks I have! They work and its such a simple plug and play mod... I'm going to home depot to buy acouple springs... I want to see if I can find one that will give me the same tension without the spring mod I have been doing... if I find one that I feel is comparable to a stock JLF with microswitches I'll post it up for all you to try... Toodles... haha maybe you should sell translucent RED shaft covers with these bad boys... "Spark... it works..."
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • x24x24 Eiffel Tower! Joined: Posts: 280
    Would it be easy to desolder the pot so we can reposition it somewhere accessible on the case? I haven't seen the PCB so I'm not sure if you used a form factor too small to fool around with.
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    Would it be easy to desolder the pot so we can reposition it somewhere accessible on the case? I haven't seen the PCB so I'm not sure if you used a form factor too small to fool around with.
    the pot is really small. I dont see it as a possibility to move... I would adjust the sensitivity before closing up the case... you really need a multimeter to dial it in anyways so its not something that would be a simple twist and play... not if you want specifics...
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    Would it be easy to desolder the pot so we can reposition it somewhere accessible on the case? I haven't seen the PCB so I'm not sure if you used a form factor too small to fool around with.
    You could, but I wouldnt recommend it. It'd get jostled around and you'd be fiddling with the knob like every game, plus damn near every pot you could case mount would seem uber sensitive, with small changes having big affect on the sensitivity. Dial it where you want it with the existing trim pot, then close it up and forget it.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    If you do get some springs that you like at Home Depot, hit me up with parts numbers; I think customers would like having them available to get with the Spark.
  • x24x24 Eiffel Tower! Joined: Posts: 280
    I was thinking somewhere inside the cable port and use a recessed trimpot to keep it from being accidentally moved.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    It's doable, sure, just please consider it unsupported. If you cant get it to work properly and reliably, I wont be able to help.
  • x24x24 Eiffel Tower! Joined: Posts: 280
    No worries, just doing some preliminary mod ideas when I eventually am able to acquire one of the new boards.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    We know it gets wonky on the uber low settings; have you guys experienced wonkiness on the uber high settings? If so, please let me know whereabout (ohms-wise) it starts getting wonky for you.
  • RoboKrikitRoboKrikit nuclear Joined: Posts: 1,943
    When I first installed it I did around 1/3 of the SFxT char trials on ~100 ohms to get a feel for things, and didn't have any issues. I'll mess with it this weekend with more attention to funky inputs and see how it goes.
  • kubebotkubebot Large Member Joined: Posts: 1,270
    ... I'm going to home depot to buy acouple springs... I want to see if I can find one that will give me the same tension without the spring mod I have been doing... if I find one that I feel is comparable to a stock JLF with microswitches.
    1 LS-55 spring :cool:
  • RoboKrikitRoboKrikit nuclear Joined: Posts: 1,943
    to the other beta testers... just curious... if you mark a spot next to the screw so you know where one full rotation counts in the spark how far up or down does the ohms go? I stated that with my CE it will rise or drop 3ohms with fun turn of the screw...

    I'm being pretty precise with the turns for the measurement, but it isn't always consistent. Usually 3-4 ohms for a full 360 degree turn. To get a specific setting the user would definitely need a multimeter, or just spin and try it till it feels right.
    aside from that I say this is a great product! I want more for the other sticks I have! They work and its such a simple plug and play mod... I'm going to home depot to buy acouple springs... I want to see if I can find one that will give me the same tension without the spring mod I have been doing... if I find one that I feel is comparable to a stock JLF with microswitches I'll post it up for all you to try... Toodles... haha maybe you should sell translucent RED shaft covers with these bad boys... "Spark... it works..."

    Hahah. :D

    SparkCE™ - Operates as intended!
    SparkCE™ - High speed response... if you want.
    SparkCE™ - Optical without all that negative karma!
  • BigGanjaBigGanja Joined: Posts: 131
    Hi Toodles are you still looking for testers ?

    I have bought many of your products before and been satisfied with every one! I have no doubt this will be no different.
    Thinking about it, I could also do with an MC upgrade kit and a few other bits which I will gladly purchase from you if you wanted to consider me a tester.

    Shoot me a pm with relevant info and list what responsibilities you want me to cover if your interested sir.
  • Legendary GokouLegendary Gokou 210Nem Joined: Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I'm a little behind on the beta testing, just got it installed .... but I plan on logging heavy hours into it in the upcoming week. I kinda want to try it with a circular gate as well.
    CFN: 210Nem
    SFV Karin
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    havent found any springs that can match what I did with the stock jlf spring and a cut down LS-33 (32? damn I forget... the bigger one...)
    I did hear that a spring from the game known as "Bop IT" works ultra smooth...
    still tho... aside from the spring the Spark works far beyond expectation... really good reaction from the players at the last Oceanside Fight Club when I showcased it in my new modded V.S.
    everyone that tried it loved the response of the Spark...
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • PhreakazoidPhreakazoid Turkey Legs Incoming! Joined: Posts: 3,477
    Joe, you've got a newer Link in yours right? Any noticeable difference/improvement for the enhanced deadzone with this? I know that it worked with the original Spark (While not compatible with the FLASH1).. just curious if it actually can take advantage/overcome that deadzone with paired usage of the SparkCE.

    Gotta admit, this is looking pretty damn good.. well done Marcus.
    Cerberus, easy dual mod for your TE ->www.phreakmods.com/products/cerberus
    Link JLF Detachable Joystick Shaft! -> www.PhreakMods.com/products/the-link
    Available @ FocusAttack.com -> http://www.focusattack.com/jlf-link/
    Available @ JasensCustoms.com -> https://www.jasenscustoms.com/PhreakMods-The-Link.html
    Available @ ParadiseAracadeShop.com -> http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/fgc-featured/1124-the-link-jlf.html
  • JayduckyJayducky Stupid Questions---> Joined: Posts: 737
    ETA on availability of SPARK CE?
    Step 1: Put a hole in the box.
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    Joe, you've got a newer Link in yours right? Any noticeable difference/improvement for the enhanced deadzone with this? I know that it worked with the original Spark (While not compatible with the FLASH1).. just curious if it actually can take advantage/overcome that deadzone with paired usage of the SparkCE.

    Gotta admit, this is looking pretty damn good.. well done Marcus.
    I'll check tonight. the newer link is on one of my custom sticks. I'll check the dead zone to see if there is a noticeable diffrence
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    I just tried it with the link... You really have to play with the sensitivity but I was able to get it to cancel the dead zone phreak was talking about... Small issue is every so often the return to neural would cause an input... I'm sure if I played with the sensitivity a bit more I can correct that but wife made spam and rice! Pretty hungry will mess with it again later
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    the thread title should be changed to The official Spark/Spark CE OPTICAL JOYSTICK for the JLF... so people see it and not mistake it for the sparky LED thread...
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
  • RoboKrikitRoboKrikit nuclear Joined: Posts: 1,943
    Gate and Spring Testing

    Recommended minimum sensitivity 55Ω at all settings for consistency.

    I might refer to some SFxT character trials as execution examples, since that's what I've been doing with my stick lately, no homo.

    Gates

    GT-8F (standard JLF restrictor)

    4-way mode:
    At the lowest sensitivity setting (110.8Ω on my sample) diagonals disappear entirely except for a very tiny spot at Down-Left. Best 4-way mode on a JLF. Tested on Pac-Man. :D

    8-way mode:
    The standard for the games we usually play. Works well at all settings 55-110Ω+ depending on your preference. Recommend setting 55-60Ω and working your way up if you want less sensitivity, or want smaller diagonal zones.


    To some extent, the stuff below applies to the square gate, too, but I wanted to focus on the alternate gates since square is pretty straightforward.


    GT-C (circular JLF restrictor by Toodles)

    Diagonals are usually the issue with circle gates, especially in sticks with round actuators like the JLF. The tradeoff for the smooth circular motion is shallow diagonal zones. If zones for diagonal directions are too small, you will need higher precision to block and jump. Even if you are very precise with blocking, some charge moves may be easy to input incorrectly, i.e. Boxer dash low vs. dash straight (should end in DF vs F).

    Luckily the SparkCE is adjustable so you can get good diagonals.

    The circular gate can be a pretty solid execution assist with motion-based or 360 characters. Ogre trial 19 (multiple dash cancels) is easiest on GT-C. Balrog/Boxer types who care about ending execution in UB and DF still play decently, but are probably best suited for square if you don't really love the circle.


    55Ω setting
    • Diagonals very responsive
    • Dashing is touchiest here, since cardinals are deep and neutral is small, it is easy to bang the gate twice without actually returning to neutral during a hurried dash motion
    • If you tend to cut your fireball motions short it might be an issue since the diags have higher priority
    • Spring rebound can cause inadvertent input in opposite direction (LS-55 spring)
    In general, the 55Ω setting is very good and playable; the above is nitpicking for picky nits.

    65Ω setting
    • Diagonal zones well-represented and even
    • 'Short' qcf motions less of an issue
    75Ω setting
    • Down-Right diagonal getting a little tighter
    • No issues with abbreviated qcfs
    • Spring rebound disappears in all but extreme cases
    85Ω setting and higher (110Ω+)

    Sensitivity lowers gradually, diagonals shrink some. It is still plenty playable at absolute minimum sensitivity without wonky inputs.


    GT-Y (octagonal restrictor)

    This one surprised me. I have never been a fan of the GT-Y; the octo gate is just too loose and sloppy in a stock JLF for my tastes. But it feels fine with the SparkCE and some good spring tension (see below). I normally hate the GT-Y and rarely pass up on an opportunity to ward people away from it if they don't have the money to spend or the inclination to play with stick parts, but if you want to pair it with the CE, definitely give it a try.

    I liked this at all settings 55-110Ω+. All directions still worked fine at minimum sensitivity. Cammy trial 20 (jump-cancelled qcb cannon spikes) felt pretty natural with the GT-Y.


    Springs

    The JLF becomes very light in feel when the microswitches are removed, as the switches provide a good portion of the total resistance. You'll probably want to swap in a heavier spring to compensate for the lack of switch tension. I think the LS-55 is probably the best all-around spring paired with the SparkCE. It works well with all of the gates and has medium tension.

    A single LS-32 spring gives it a lot of the throw feel of the stock JLF, but it doesn't feel the same altogether. Switches make tension happen at the outside of the throw, which is completely lacking with an optical setup. I think going a little heavier on the spring makes the optical setup feel better.

    Adding an LS-33 spring is an easy way to get an "in-between" level of tension. Take care when installing thinner springs like the LS-33 and LS-55 that they slide over the entire spring holder piece (JLF-P-6), as they fit snugly.

    These are the springs I like the best for different levels of stiffness:
    Light - LS-32
    ...
    Medium-Light - JLF-SP + LS-33
    Medium - LS-55
    Medium-Heavy - LS-32 + LS-33
    ...
    Heavy - JLF-SP + LS-32

    The Medium springs are closer in tension than the Light and Heavy, which feel much lighter and heavier, respectively. My favorite is probably the LS-55 or JLF-SP + LS-33, not sure yet. They feel pretty similar, and the LS-32 + LS-33 is not much different.

    You could get away with skipping the LS-33-tweaked settings and getting only LS-32 and LS-55 springs with the SparkCE, then set as follows:
    Light - LS-32
    Medium - LS-55
    Heavy - JLF-SP + LS-32

    I did try Joe's method of cutting the LS-32 in half and pairing it with the stock JLF spring. It feels good, very similar to the LS-55 level, maybe a little stiffer. I think if you want heavier than the LS-55, but the JLF-SP + LS-32 is too stiff (and it is quite stiff), cutting the LS-32 down to 3/4 or 1/2 would get you in between.
  • x24x24 Eiffel Tower! Joined: Posts: 280
    Any tests on using the "home depot" spring as to how it would feel without the microswitches?
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    I haven't found a good alternative just yet on the home depot

    Oh and spam>"aso" haha...it's already canned and doesn't make so much noise when you cut it up...
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    Thanks for laying the knowledge RoboKrikit.
    The consensus is that that the usable lower range hits about 40-50 ohms. I guess my big question is about the far end; how is it on a square gate on the max resistance? Does it get to a point where its wonky before maxing out? Does it get wonky at all?
    Since there's so many turns available on the pot to dial in the preferred sensitivity, I'd really like to have it cover the entire range from wonky tight to wonky loose. I'm just trying to get an idea of if the max resistance is far enough or if I should make it go further. I'm sure it may make the circle or octagonal gates unusable at max, so this is really a square gate question.
  • RoboKrikitRoboKrikit nuclear Joined: Posts: 1,943
    For me the stick is still plenty usable cranked all the way to the far end on all gates, even the GT-C. When I max it out it measures 110-111Ω. I would give up some of the lower range to get a higher ceiling.

    On all gates the wonkiness is 100% eliminated for me at 55Ω. Can someone else test to find the Upper Wonky Range and see if we match? Or is it the Ceiling of Wonkiness? CoW?

    First find your wonky zone(s) by setting sensitivity somewhere around 40Ω. It is very very easy for me to find the spots at 40Ω; I have only one and it is barely above Right. In Game Controllers on a PC I see a Cthulhu or Kitty with current firmware register neutral when I hit this spot. It's easiest to see with the stick set to LS, since the app has to draw the + for neutral.

    KittyTE
    Gk253.gif
    BjoMP.gif

    The 360 TE board shows DownLeft instead.

    360TE
    sjQEZ.gif

    As you dial up the ohms, it should get harder to duplicate.

    Unfortunately I don't think you can find the real CoW in the Game Controllers app. As the sensitivity gets lower (ohms up), the input that was easy to find is a mere 1 frame blip. You need something with an input history, and not on a console using the Cthulhu/Kitty, because if it is sending Neutral you won't see it. I used SFxT and SF4 on Xbox360 to find it.

    Find the funny input at 40Ω. Mine makes my character, when on the right, walk left while holding right or barely above right. If you have a different spot you might have to find something else to use.



    As the ohms go up you have to keep an eye on the input history, as the wonky inputs will get more rare and happen too quickly to cause character animation.

    7oZOtm.jpg?1
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    Yeah, that wonkines is because the cardinals become so sensitive that it can activate opposites from the little light reflected off of the actuator. That 360 downleft is how the 360 board handles the SOCD.
  • spenzaliispenzalii Joined: Posts: 2,017
    on: springs

    I may try out a few rc shock springs to see how they work on a spark. I had tried a few on a JLW going for a happ feel, but never bothered anything with a JLF (considering I rarely used a JLF, I guess that made sense). I did get a multi-pack of springs from Home Depot but none really felt right, even with cutting some down.
    And we build BALLER SHIT! (c) Matskat
  • kubebotkubebot Large Member Joined: Posts: 1,270
    ....My favorite is probably the LS-55
    :smokin: Yep. I think it feels identical to the FLASH1 spring.
    I also like that it's a single spring solution and you don't have to deal with springs bunching up and popping.
  • JayduckyJayducky Stupid Questions---> Joined: Posts: 737
    Can't wait for SPARK CE to be released!
    Is there a log of any current issues the spark ce has in beta testing? Just curious to how it is coming along. Keep up the good work Toodles!
    Step 1: Put a hole in the box.
  • Kuya_JoeKuya_Joe AKA BlindWithOneArm Joined: Posts: 2,816
    As far as the spark CE goes there isnt really any issues we have seen just yet... as long as the user stays within 80 - 50 ohms the response is really crisp and there isnt any funny business with lost directionals or strange occurrences when installing... Toodles made the "CE" to help with the voltage issues from a few pcb's... cool little trade off is that now adjusting the ohms helped with the sensetivity of the spark making the response more to the players liking... I'm waiting for him to mass produce these beauties as well... I will want these in all my sticks...

    Only issue would be the spring... we are still trying to find one that will match close to what the tension is with the micros in a JLF... the LS-55 is good and if you are a little picky like me the two spring method where you cut the smaller spring to help with the tension works really well... just finding that single alternative is what we are looking for atm... the actual Spark CE is playing out pretty well up to expectations...
    But it wasn't good enough right? Because it wasn't cleared by you lol...
    -YESMASTER...
    "She doesn't need a mouth to tell me how cute she is. "
    JDM714 epic...
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