Balrog Thread

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  • mistamakavelimistamakaveli Joined: Posts: 8
    some video examples of this if poss mate, also whos a good balrog player i can watch for inspiration
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Afrolegends, Tsuji, Tamashima, John Choi, Daigo and The Superstar are some players that come to mind. There are tons of videos on Youtube.
  • AirthrowAirthrow Joined: Posts: 4,525
    Hey guys, I have just finished the first version of my Balrog FAQ to gamefaqs. I have no idea how long it takes for the mods to submit a FAQ that is in the queue, right now there are 25 or so in the queue so I assume mine will be posted within the next couple days. It's 25k or so, I need contributions from people specifically in the matchup section. I tried to go in-depth explaining the uses of his moves and properties.

    Anyways, it SUCKS because I wrote a Yamazaki FAQ for KOF '98 before 2005, and somehow they changed their system so I cannot use my old account, so it looks like that faq and the balrog one are made by two different people...oh wells.
    RIP Group B Rallying 1982-1986
  • AirthrowAirthrow Joined: Posts: 4,525
    Okay, i am not sure if this link will work:

    http://www.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/game/583631.html

    It goes to the ST faqs, and mine is the Balrog one, obviously, let me know what you guys think. If that link isn't allowed just type in "Super Street Fighter II Turbo" and click arcade and FAQs.
    RIP Group B Rallying 1982-1986
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    which rog instand overhead is better? j.short or j.forward?

    and what about his s.forward? (both far and close version), are they good to use?
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Some stuff that fuck me up
    Okay, i am not sure if this link will work:

    http://www.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/game/583631.html

    It goes to the ST faqs, and mine is the Balrog one, obviously, let me know what you guys think. If that link isn't allowed just type in "Super Street Fighter II Turbo" and click arcade and FAQs.
    Afro has mentioned that in ST you can use the fingers to charge TAP and use punches with their tips. There is a video of Tamashima doing that in this thread, I believe. He can also give up TAP by releasing a single button, if TAP is not desired. Even better, he can release a button and negative edge a kick rush, thus having access to all his specials while charging horizontal rushes, headbutt and TAP.

    Against Ryu (not sure about Ken due to his slightly longer horizontal range), cr.strong on wakeup is safe if he has no super. SRK will whiff and leave him vulnerable to a rush. At the beginning of the round, fierce headbutt also beats hadouken. In fact, it will beat anything but doing nothing or jumping back. Of course, just throwing it out there will lead to average damage punishments and, most likely, a knockdown.

    After a hadouken from a relatively close distance or landing from jumps and short tatsus, Rog should not get predictable with rush punches, as it can lead to shoryukens and a chance of a comeback to the shoto. From a longer distance, if you rush as soon as possible, you may eat a st.strong, which has a chance of beating all Rog's rushes. It may help to often give enough time for the enemy to whiff moves at such clutch moments.

    There is always a chance a cross-up tatsu will completely whiff due to Rog's surprisingly small crouching hitbox on block: be ready to use strong hold as he lands. On the other hand, watch out for ducking too long and getting crossed up with roundhouse. Elite Ryus can confirm the cross up and cr.strong into SRK on hit (no good of you) or mix up on block.

    Cr.fierce beats or trades with all his jump ins.

    Edit: after a low kick rush, Rog can try a strong hold immediately followed by a jab headbutt. Any late flash kicks or the like will be stuffed by the headbutt which kara-cancels standing strong.

    Edit2: Zangief: 1, 2 and 3.
  • AirthrowAirthrow Joined: Posts: 4,525
    which rog instand overhead is better? j.short or j.forward?

    I would use J. forward. They have the same animation I believe, and both work as instant overheads, so you might as well go for the extra damage one. BEWARE though, ST is cursed with Jumanji. I had a match where I knocked down a cornered Zangief, he had ZERO vitality left, not even a visible 1pt of HP left.

    He woke up and I instant overheaded. He took no discernable damage even though he got hit, then when I landed he SPD'ed me to kill me. It was the most infuriating bullshit I have ever had happen to me in a tournament before. It of course, was the deciding round and I lost due to that fucking BS.
    and what about his s.forward? (both far and close version), are they good to use?

    There is no far version of st. Forward. It is very good up close as a meaty and a tick throw, it has the same timing to use for a tick throw as cr. forward.
    Afro has mentioned that in ST you can use the fingers to charge TAP and use punches with their tips. There is a video of Tamashima doing that in this thread, I believe. He can also give up TAP by releasing a single button, if TAP is not desired. Even better, he can release a button and negative edge a kick rush, thus having access to all his specials while charging horizontal rushes, headbutt and TAP.

    This is VERY good information, and I honestly didn't know this, it is going into the FAQ on the next version, and I will be trying to incorporate it into my play. Thanks man. :tup:
    There is always a chance a cross-up tatsu will completely whiff due to Rog's surprisingly small crouching hitbox on block: be ready to use strong hold as he lands.

    IMO The correct answer to a whiffed Tatsu is always a cr. FP, followed closely by meaty cr. strong >low rush as he lands. You cannot give the opponent chances to throw you when they have a 50% chance of landing counter throw in this game, go for guaranteed damage...
    RIP Group B Rallying 1982-1986
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    There is no far version of st. Forward. It is very good up close as a meaty and a tick throw, it has the same timing to use for a tick throw as cr. forward.

    This is incorrect, there are two versions of st.MK, the closer one looks like a compressed gut punch, with a short swing; the further one (which you still have to be reasonably close to do) is when he leans forwards to do the punch.

    St.MK is an incredibly useful move, because the far version has great range and I've noticed people tend to mash for some reason when they see this move. It's his best standing, close range poke.

    A simple okizeme mixup is doing st.MK->throw, then when you get the next opportunity do st.MK->cr.Roundhouse.
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

    www.youtube.com/Guoguodi
    GGPO Handle: Gizzle
  • AirthrowAirthrow Joined: Posts: 4,525
    Wouldn't counter throwing st. mk>low RH beat the RH part? I mean, I do this trick too but I suspect if they think you're going for the throw and try to counter throw, they would beat your trip? I'd like to know the frame data for this...
    RIP Group B Rallying 1982-1986
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    Whenever I do st.MK->cr.RH I'm at a range where the st.MK connects, but invariably it's outside their throw range. It works so well because people tend to mash after the blocked st.MK, as they expect a throw coming, yet they're way outside throw range. Works great even against Dic, Sim who have great throw ranges but no reversal move.

    I love doing st.MK->cr.RH because it's just a solid blockstring. People fall for the cr.RH surprisingly often. And if they block it, you can often catch them by surprise with a super immediately afterwards. I like doing this against Dic because often they try to reply with scissor kick immediately after blocking the cr.RH.

    As a side note, the Dic matchup is great because you can do so many variations on blockstrings thanks to his lack of reversal move. Can be fun pressure mindgames with jump-in leading to blockstring, into throw, knockdown, or whiffed rush into normal move or another jump-in etc etc.

    I have to check the frame data too, but I could swear that when Dic is crouching, his hitbox is slightly further away. Against Ryu, you can do a jump-in at any range, land and do cr.Strong, and the cr.Strong will connect. Against Dic, often the cr.Strong won't connect. Probably just my imagination though. That said, all the more reason to use st.MK imo.
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

    www.youtube.com/Guoguodi
    GGPO Handle: Gizzle
  • AirthrowAirthrow Joined: Posts: 4,525
    ^I wish I had a copy of Yoga Book hyper or I'd check that for you. Sounds interesting.

    Also repeated jump backs with roundhouse against dictator are very difficult to do anything about, as well as jump forward lk, jump back lk, repeat.
    RIP Group B Rallying 1982-1986
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Here's something I just noticed between N.Boxer and O.Boxer about their hold. N.Boxer's hold does 9 hits by default. O.Boxer's hold does 12 hits by default. So an advantage that O.Boxer has is that his hold will yield more hits with the same amount of struggling. I never picked up on that until I was fooling around with my CPSII board today.

    Overall N.Boxer is of course a much better character though. :sweat:
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    In this game, every time you move the joystick left or right and press a throw button, the character attempts a throw. You can see that with Dammit's recent throw-box function in his hitbox lua. The exception is Balrog's hold. For some odd reason, it only triggers if you are close to the enemy. From maximum range, even though if you would draw his box and it would be enough, it does not appear, and he does not grab his opponent. The reason why his Fierce hold has even less range is that it only triggers from a closer distance. Dammit had identified this phenomenon for WW Zangief, previously.
  • PunchingpowaPunchingpowa Joined: Posts: 68
    O.boxer's tap seems so much faster than n's. I really like o boxer but the lack of super really hurts him against fireball characters.
  • JehoediJehoedi making ALL KINDS of gains Joined: Posts: 257
    Been playing a little SSF2T lately. Mainly using Boxer. I gotta say, it feels awesome to succesfully rush someone down. Haahha.

    I've got a question regarding a combo of Boxer's. Namely his j.HP, cr.LP, st.LP xx Dash Punch. Which strength should you use to do the Dash Punch with? (Now keep in mind that in this scenario the combo itself doesn't stun). Obviously his fierce version knocks down, but is his oki all that great? I tend to use jab Dash mostly to leave the opponent standing. After the Dash I'll try to hit them with a st.fierce or cr.roundhouse for a pretty much guaranteed stun. If they get blocked I'll have already charged up long enough to go either for a short or jab low rush.

    So which is the better of the two, fishing for the stun after the jab Dash or playing the rigged wakeup game?
  • ScarGfxScarGfx Theory Fighter Joined: Posts: 63
    I've been playing against a few Sims on GGPO and i worked out a few of the dynamics regarding the presure game vs him, probably all common knowlage but i thought i'd post anyway

    Balrog vs Dhalsim

    Meaty/Wake up Presure -

    As always you can do early rush upper wiff into the headbutt or throw 50/50 but if he blocks the headbutt he gets a free throw, which is a massive game changer as if he throws you in the corner its near to impossible to get out without super meter or at best you've still got to get back in on him.
    Doing a meaty cr.jab after the rush upper will put you at the correct distance to land a safe jab.headbutt, but he can still throw the meaty making it just as unsafe.

    Meaty TAP is the safest option as he has no reversal that can get him out of it, the hard part is continuing pressure after the blocked tap.
    If the TAP is high level you can go into the 50/50 throw or headbutt mixup as the move pushes you so far forward you will be right next to him.
    If the TAP is low level you can do low rush which will beat out fireballs but leaves you with very limited follow ups (only st.fierce, another TAP or fierce.headbutt), it is also beaten clean by cr.forward which a lot of Dhalsim players like to spam relentlessly to push you away and start using some of his longer reaching pokes. To counter the cr.forward you can do another TAP which will beat it clean and hit a lot of damage, putting you back in the same situation as before (In my opinion you want to use the low level TAP as the meaty then the high level TAP as the counter poke as you are much more likely to hit it). What makes this mixup so crucial in my opinion is you can make the player reluctant to spam cr.forward making it a lot easier to land throws and low rushes.
  • KingLegbertKingLegbert Joined: Posts: 2
    What I am having problems with is sacrificing my kicks for the TAP.
    Is there some characters that i really shouldnt bother charging a high lvl TAP for?
  • othartheomothartheom recovering hyou bal Joined: Posts: 116
    The only matchups you really need a high charged TAP for is sim
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
  • ScarGfxScarGfx Theory Fighter Joined: Posts: 63
    In the guile matchup I don't rate tap because you really need cr.forward to beat his footsies and due to the recovery of sonic boom you're best off trying to trade with jab straight.
  • RyuReiatsuRyuReiatsu Joined: Posts: 215
    I can't seem to find ST/HDR frame datas at all. Is there one for Balrog? If yes, could somebody link it to me please?
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I can't seem to find ST/HDR frame datas at all. Is there one for Balrog? If yes, could somebody link it to me please?
    Right now, we have not obtained complete frame data as number of frames for every possible animation of his attacks. But you can get the basic frame data, which start-up, hitting and recovery frames, from Yoga Book Hyper or T.Akiba's SF2 Frame Data page (translation kindly presented by NKI). These are now known not to be perfect, but they are often not too far off. Yoga Book showed to be more accurate.

    Edit: I think Papasi's Hitbox page has the frame data from the YBH. Here is Rog's section.
    Edit2: a few characters have their complete data on the Wiki. Guile, for instance.
  • RyuReiatsuRyuReiatsu Joined: Posts: 215
    Right now, we have not obtained complete frame data as number of frames for every possible animation of his attacks. But you can get the basic frame data, which start-up, hitting and recovery frames, from Yoga Book Hyper or T.Akiba's SF2 Frame Data page (translation kindly presented by NKI). These are now known not to be perfect, but they are often not too far off. Yoga Book showed to be more accurate.

    Edit: I think Papasi's Hitbox page has the frame data from the YBH. Here is Rog's section.
    Edit2: a few characters have their complete data on the Wiki. Guile, for instance.

    Thanks a bunch, I appreciate it!

    EDIT: I've been studying Balrog's frame data from the YBH. I've noticed that there weren't any information on frame advantages on block/hit and the first link seems to give me funky texts. Do you have another link for T.Akiba's?
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Installed far Fierce (straight) to beat backdashes: Shinshin vs Nakamu.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    That's some sf4 bullshit, lol.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
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  • KoopKoop SRK - D.M.V. OG™ (⌐■_■) Joined: Posts: 5,487 mod
    bump
    Respected... simple as that.
  • FuddFudd High Level Parking Joined: Posts: 1,215
    Ok at 1:16 of this video (linked below) Boxer does a chip super then cr.strong xx low rush and then a level 4 TAP. He does the string after the super within two ticks of the game clock. Now, what troubles me about this and prompts me to post this today is how the hell he manages to charge a 4 within such a short amount of time. I say it's short because if you try to hold kicks for TAP during super, obviously you'll get some uppers in your super, but that super was all punches. Now, you could conceivably hold punches for TAP during the super, but if that's the case then how the hell did he do that cr.mp xx low rush blockstring preceding the TAP?
    Boxer pros or game mechanic engineers, please clear this up for me.

    "See, Super Turbo is a real man's game... But Street Fighter 4's like Chuck-E-Cheese, baby. Y'know what I'm saying? Where a kid can be a kid. I'm a grown-ass man, so clearly I'm not old enough to go in the ball pit." -Steve Harrison (Translation: dat Fo' make you soft)
    Super Turbo Revival
    "Everyone has a plan until they get magnetized." -SpiderDan
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  • afro legendsafro legends Pugilist Specialist Joined: Posts: 256
    Not sure how that's done...maybe he has a game genie?
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    When you do the super and you're charging TAP and you want straights in stead of uppers, just a hold a punch button at the same time. It cancels the uppers and you get straights.
    He was just charging a TAP before the super, then did the super while holding an additional punch button.
    Roald Dhalsim
  • FuddFudd High Level Parking Joined: Posts: 1,215
    When you do the super and you're charging TAP and you want straights in stead of uppers, just a hold a punch button at the same time. It cancels the uppers and you get straights.
    He was just charging a TAP before the super, then did the super while holding an additional punch button.

    Fascinating stuff, good to know. Thanks for the knowledge.
    Now the "bad" news is afro knows too and the gears will be turning in his head for more creative ways to murder us all :rofl:
    "See, Super Turbo is a real man's game... But Street Fighter 4's like Chuck-E-Cheese, baby. Y'know what I'm saying? Where a kid can be a kid. I'm a grown-ass man, so clearly I'm not old enough to go in the ball pit." -Steve Harrison (Translation: dat Fo' make you soft)
    Super Turbo Revival
    "Everyone has a plan until they get magnetized." -SpiderDan
    PSN: Metonymous | Battle.net: Noun#1214 | Steam: Noun Proper | YT
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    I'm surprised he didn't know already. But yeah, it's a good thing they gave Rog this option to be able to sit on TAP while using Super straights. God forbid he'd have any weaknesses, or had to compromise in some way.
    Roald Dhalsim
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I'm sensing a little hate for Rog. He's a good character, not over powered in any way. I just wish less people used him.
  • F-A-M-I-L-Y ManF-A-M-I-L-Y Man feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
    Yeah I definitely hate the Rog. It seems like any hit against him results in a full knockdown or big damage putting me into corner wakeup games. So then I end up blocking only to get head bashed. Huge pain in the ass matchup with no chance for crossup. But then Philly is the land of Boxers and a lot of them are well-experienced so maybe I'm just tired sucking at the matchup.
    GGPO: Pillowhashi
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,718
    I'm sensing a little hate for Rog. He's a good character, not over powered in any way. I just wish less people used him.

    My biggest issue with him is his super. It's definitely the best super in the game that, on hit or block, gives him a strong advantage in the matchup. On hit, does an amazing amount of damage, plus you're knocked down (most likely in the corner), putting him on a dominant position. On block, does a lot of chip, pushes you towards the corner, and he's not punishable once its finished.
  • afro legendsafro legends Pugilist Specialist Joined: Posts: 256
    My biggest issue with him is his super. It's definitely the best super in the game that, on hit or block, gives him a strong advantage in the matchup. On hit, does an amazing amount of damage, plus you're knocked down (most likely in the corner), putting him on a dominant position. On block, does a lot of chip, pushes you towards the corner, and he's not punishable once its finished.

    Actually rog's super is indeed punishable on block...at least with Ryu. He can sweep me right afterwards. I'm guessing the timing is super hard though because the only Ryu player who has ever done it on me consistently is Shun Joker. That guy is a straight up beast!
  • FuddFudd High Level Parking Joined: Posts: 1,215
    Also, Gief gets a free SPD off Boxer's super on block.
    "See, Super Turbo is a real man's game... But Street Fighter 4's like Chuck-E-Cheese, baby. Y'know what I'm saying? Where a kid can be a kid. I'm a grown-ass man, so clearly I'm not old enough to go in the ball pit." -Steve Harrison (Translation: dat Fo' make you soft)
    Super Turbo Revival
    "Everyone has a plan until they get magnetized." -SpiderDan
    PSN: Metonymous | Battle.net: Noun#1214 | Steam: Noun Proper | YT
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    Sagat and I believe Guile can throw you during the super, like when they're blocking it. SpinalBlood's Sagat can consistently throw you out of it. I think last weekend I was playing against a great local Guile player and -if I remember correctly- he did a reversal Super while blocking my stupid Boxer's super. Or maybe it was just a Flash Kick, but he did something like that. Still, it's hard to do and if your timing is off, you'll eat the rest of the super.
    Roald Dhalsim
  • FuddFudd High Level Parking Joined: Posts: 1,215
    I think that vulnerability has more to do with the range at which the Boxer super is done. If you do it from (perhaps more than) half-screen so that there's a pause after the second blocked hit, there's a frame opening where you can fit in some kind of interruption, even a throw (of course, Boxer has to be within throw range).

    Sagat and Guile have pretty crappy throw ranges, so I don't see any reason why specifically those characters could throw on block. However, I think the timing on that punish is also very specific.
    "See, Super Turbo is a real man's game... But Street Fighter 4's like Chuck-E-Cheese, baby. Y'know what I'm saying? Where a kid can be a kid. I'm a grown-ass man, so clearly I'm not old enough to go in the ball pit." -Steve Harrison (Translation: dat Fo' make you soft)
    Super Turbo Revival
    "Everyone has a plan until they get magnetized." -SpiderDan
    PSN: Metonymous | Battle.net: Noun#1214 | Steam: Noun Proper | YT
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    Yeah, it's that pause thing. I dunno, I've only seen Guile and Sagat do it so far.
    Roald Dhalsim
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Actually rog's super is indeed punishable on block...at least with Ryu. He can sweep me right afterwards. I'm guessing the timing is super hard though because the only Ryu player who has ever done it on me consistently is Shun Joker. That guy is a straight up beast!
    After the whole super? This seems to be some effect of lag, or maybe it is shun joker who has the game genie! I have tried that by simulating 30 Hz turbo and not only it hasn't worked, but Rog recovered and had enough time to complete his crouching animation. The frame data agrees with this result.
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