Nerfing mid/low tie char in this game

joey ajoey a Joined: Posts: 15
I dont understand the purpose of nerfing mid/low tie char in the first place?


Does capcom just want there money making char to be the best?


I almost see it as marketing at its finest....

Lets make our money making games top tier to add and keep the fan base around longer.


Anyone not making them money outside of a fighting game series is mid tier or nerfed.



Why was tron nerfed aside from gunstaff fire....whats the purpose of nerfing her?
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Comments

  • J.DJ.D EVO Staff Joined: Posts: 4,500 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Not every balance decision in the game is made towards competitive players.
    Their choices might not make sense from a competitive sense, but they probably had a different reasoning for that decision
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Also some characters might be low tier but their gameplan is braindead and abusive...like even if X-23 is not that good, Dirt Nap needs to be nerfed...they just have to buff her in other ways.
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  • ironboy89ironboy89 Beep Boop Beep Joined: Posts: 4,665
    Who knows, but sometimes it's obvious that Capcom are afraid that the mid tier/low tier can become overpowered.
  • Cee DizzyCee Dizzy The shit I don't like Joined: Posts: 3,408
    1. Tron was nowhere near low tier. She can kill you in one hit now and could kill you in one hit in Vanilla. One j. H in vanilla = Done. J. H was so good. Hitbox of the gods, you got a full juggle combo from it, with proper spacing it was a 50/50, just so good... The best thing about her, other than the assist. I mean, yeah they butchered her to death, but Capcom thought it was... ummm.... necessary...

    2. Capcom, and the fans, thought that this and that was a problem or that adding this into a character or taking that out was necessary to make the game more unique. They can't satisfy everybody man :(.
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  • DahbombDahbomb Dark Slayer Rising Joined: Posts: 916
    Tron had an infinite in vanilla and her j.h was really brain dead. Her and haggars assist were too powerful and dictated the pace of the game. Haggar was buffed as a point character and so was Tron but for her she needs more because haggars assist its at least still very good.

    No other mid or lower character was nerfed, a metric ton off buffs were handed. I hope Capcom follows suit with their next balance patch but shave off the top a bit instead of buffing them too.

    And yeah not every change is directed towards the highest level of play... See sentinel.
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  • Dark RadianceDark Radiance MNS Azula Joined: Posts: 1,307
    Still upset that Capcom completely killed off Iron Man. He wasn't top tier, but he was solid in Vanilla.but then Ultimate... completely took away every single option this character had and left him with nothing. Pissed me off because I wanted to learn him towards the end of Vanilla.
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  • NickRocksNickRocks Knock Knock Joined: Posts: 22,918
    because capcom dont know shit
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  • J.DJ.D EVO Staff Joined: Posts: 4,500 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Still upset that Capcom completely killed off Iron Man. He wasn't top tier, but he was solid in Vanilla.but then Ultimate... completely took away every single option this character had and left him with nothing. Pissed me off because I wanted to learn him towards the end of Vanilla.

    Joker says hello
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  • El_MaizEl_Maiz You can never tell with that guy Joined: Posts: 3,023
    Still upset that Capcom completely killed off Iron Man. He wasn't top tier, but he was solid in Vanilla.but then Ultimate... completely took away every single option this character had and left him with nothing. Pissed me off because I wanted to learn him towards the end of Vanilla.
    He still has great normals (which they buffed), great damage (Which they buffed), and great assists. He just lost a lot of mobility.
  • Dark RadianceDark Radiance MNS Azula Joined: Posts: 1,307
    Joker says hello

    He's not doing anything to make that character look good. Go watch a Flashmetroid video. You won't even remember Jokers iron man.
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  • DahbombDahbomb Dark Slayer Rising Joined: Posts: 916
    Still upset that Capcom completely killed off Iron Man. He wasn't top tier, but he was solid in Vanilla.but then Ultimate... completely took away every single option this character had and left him with nothing. Pissed me off because I wanted to learn him towards the end of Vanilla.
    Iron man in vanilla was a rather one dimensional character. He just had a basic tri jump pressure which was completely trumped by magneto. Hit confirms from a ground fly and sj were almost impossible because he didn't have dash cancel air normals and a slower flight cancel. His zoning and spacing is much improved and his repulsar blast is an amazing tool now. His up down air dash is really good too. Iron man is a way more complete character in ultimate and if they just improved his down forward air dash and a proper wave dash he would be high tier easily.
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  • PoltergustPoltergust Joined: Posts: 845
    Tron had an infinite in vanilla and her j.h was really brain dead. Her and haggars assist were too powerful and dictated the pace of the game. Haggar was buffed as a point character and so was Tron but for her she needs more because haggars assist its at least still very good.

    No other mid or lower character was nerfed, a metric ton off buffs were handed. I hope Capcom follows suit with their next balance patch but shave off the top a bit instead of buffing them too.

    And yeah not every change is directed towards the highest level of play... See sentinel.
    ...Did people forget about Hulk and PW or something? >_>
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  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,278 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Tron had an infinite in vanilla and her j.h was really brain dead. Her and haggars assist were too powerful and dictated the pace of the game. Haggar was buffed as a point character and so was Tron but for her she needs more because haggars assist its at least still very good.

    No other mid or lower character was nerfed, a metric ton off buffs were handed. I hope Capcom follows suit with their next balance patch but shave off the top a bit instead of buffing them too.

    And yeah not every change is directed towards the highest level of play... See sentinel.

    jill and storm got nerfed sorta indirectly tho.
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  • FuLLBLeeDFuLLBLeeD KC SRK Supreme Godking Joined: Posts: 2,162
    Iron Man is truly better in Ultimate in vanilla, he was really, really shit in that game. He's still not that great though, and if Capcom does do a balance patch in this game they should buff his mobility, mainly his ground dash/wave dash.

    In beta UMvC3, Iron Man had a faster airdash AND could flight cancel his special moves. And they took it away...Why? In a game where Magneto exists, why would you think Iron Man of all characters needed to be nerfed?

    Also, Joker existing doesn't mean Iron Man is secret top tier. He's low/mid tier, mid tier at best. He's not complete trash like other characters, but he's not a sleeper hit either.

    But yeah Iron Man was complete shit in Vanilla, I'd take Ultimate Iron Man over vanilla any day.
  • RoGE9RoGE9 Joined: Posts: 1,725
    Typical Capcom pattern when it comes to balancing a game: Make a few good choices then make some really really stupid choices. If she-hulk, Tron, PW and Hulk were left alone, would they honestly be too good?
  • shoultzulashoultzula whatsyoursismines! Joined: Posts: 4,503
    capcom doesn't know how to balance shit. Then they release statements like we want bad characters in the game on purpose. I can only think 1 game where balance was part of the equation and it was vsav. Other Capcom games are sort of balanced like xvsf but that game is a hot mess of mechanics that were never tested, doesn't mean its a shitty game and its actually fairly fun. I'm just trying to remove any kind of mysticism that people have about Capcom and their ability to make something balanced, they don't know what they're really doing in that department otherwise their games 99% of the time wouldn't have such a huge discrepancy in the tiers.

    If capcom really knew how to balance shit, there would be no bad characters which there are in umvc3, sf4 and sfxt. There are 10-0 matchups in umvc3 and its 2012, there is no reason for that shit

    And yeah not every change is directed towards the highest level of play... See sentinel.

    this is another big problem.

    Sentinel was NOT a good character in vanilla, he was just incredibly easy to play in a new game and there was a knee jerk reaction. Now look @ the character, he's basically useless on point he needed that life they originally took away!!!

    you can't listen to scrubs about balance because it ends up fucking the game in the long run. Not to mention that sentinel lost like 90% of his sentinel ability from mvc2 and now you want a life decrease too? how much nerf is too much nerf? even if sentinel had that much life in umvc3 his ass would still suck on point...

    whenever the scrub community becomes a part of the balance process, you never get good changes. Its why they should never be listened to as far as game mechanics\balance changes are concerned because they hurt the game @ a competitive level.
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  • Noble CactusNoble Cactus 56k Days Joined: Posts: 8,476
    From what I've read and heard, bar Petshop (and even then I hear conflicting explanations as to whether he's truly as broken as stories make him out to be) and Mariah (who's made out to be the worst character in the game), JoJo's has a nice balance with everyone in between. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

    But yeah, Capcom games are notorious for having wonky balance decisions.
  • FuLLBLeeDFuLLBLeeD KC SRK Supreme Godking Joined: Posts: 2,162
    Yeah Sent got nerfed way too fucking hard.
  • Soviet AfroSoviet Afro Dead(?) Joined: Posts: 874
    Capcom smokes dat goooooooood shit when balancing their games, thats all you need to know.
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  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686

    Lets make our money making games top tier to add and keep the fan base around longer.

    Uhhhhh yea duh. This makes total sense. You think this game would be nearly as popular if Hsien Ko, She Hulk, Iron Fist, and Tron were the top tiers? Nooooo wayyyy.

    Capcom made the smart decision of making the fanboy characters insanely good.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 59,215 mod
    He's not doing anything to make that character look good. Go watch a Flashmetroid video. You won't even remember Jokers iron man.

    The problem isn't so much how bad Iron Man is in either version...it's that nobody really optimized him in either game. He's still got a long way to go despite being far from the best character.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • FuLLBLeeDFuLLBLeeD KC SRK Supreme Godking Joined: Posts: 2,162
    The problem isn't so much how bad Iron Man is in either version...it's that nobody really optimized him in either game. He's still got a long way to go despite being far from the best character.

    I think Capcom needs to iron (heh) out some of his issues, it seems like they couldn't decide whether he should be good zoning or good rush down, so they just kind of decided on an average medium. I certainly won't drop him because aside from Deadpool he's my favorite character, but I'd like to see him get some tweaks. I still think in the long run learning to reliably hit confirm into combos off air to air moves at both normal and super jump height will be huge, its just that all those combos are really hard.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 59,215 mod
    I think Capcom needs to iron (heh) out some of his issues, it seems like they couldn't decide whether he should be good zoning or good rush down, so they just kind of decided on an average medium. I certainly won't drop him because aside from Deadpool he's my favorite character, but I'd like to see him get some tweaks. I still think in the long run learning to reliably hit confirm into combos off air to air moves at both normal and super jump height will be huge, its just that all those combos are really hard.

    Some things in fighting games are hard. There's never ever a perfect balance between what is easy or hard between characters and fighting games, but players usually find ways around it despite as long as the character is capable. Which Iron Man very much is capable both on point and as support.
    capcom doesn't know how to balance shit. Then they release statements like we want bad characters in the game on purpose. I can only think 1 game where balance was part of the equation and it was vsav. Other Capcom games are sort of balanced like xvsf but that game is a hot mess of mechanics that were never tested, doesn't mean its a shitty game and its actually fairly fun. I'm just trying to remove any kind of mysticism that people have about Capcom and their ability to make something balanced, they don't know what they're really doing in that department otherwise their games 99% of the time wouldn't have such a huge discrepancy in the tiers.

    If capcom really knew how to balance shit, there would be no bad characters which there are in umvc3, sf4 and sfxt. There are 10-0 matchups in umvc3 and its 2012, there is no reason for that shit.

    The only issue I have with Marvel is that the lower tier characters are still pretty gimped compared to the higher tier. Outside of that most of the high and mid tiers I feel are very strong and that will allow for a very interesting game long into the future. Maybe 15 of the 35 characters don't really have a legit reason to be played but other then that I feel it's probably the game Capcom balanced the best. The team, assists and XF aspect also makes it easier to work around matchups.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • FuLLBLeeDFuLLBLeeD KC SRK Supreme Godking Joined: Posts: 2,162
    Oh I wasn't saying they are too hard or anything, just that relative to his bnb combo/Up Tac Smart Bomb loop they are hard and will take more practice to get down/find the most consistent variation of the sj height hitconfirm.
  • SteelyHawkeSteelyHawke Get down to business Joined: Posts: 1,146
    Uhhhhh yea duh. This makes total sense. You think this game would be nearly as popular if Hsien Ko, She Hulk, Iron Fist, and Tron were the top tiers? Nooooo wayyyy.

    Capcom made the smart decision of making the fanboy characters insanely good.
    This is how it felt in Vanilla. I'd say they were fairer in UMvC3 with all those buffs to mid tier and kinda low tier characters. I used to care about Hsien-Ko being so bad, but it doesn't matter anymore.
  • P. GorathP. Gorath @ButtonMashLA Joined: Posts: 6,806 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    they nerfed shuma's chaos dimension, took away the ability to mash it anywhere except grounded
  • PoltergustPoltergust Joined: Posts: 845
    This is how it felt in Vanilla. I'd say they were fairer in UMvC3 with all those buffs to mid tier and kinda low tier characters. I used to care about Hsien-Ko being so bad, but it doesn't matter anymore.
    That's a pretty terrible mentality, really. You shouldn't make a character good just because of how popular they are. Every character needs to be on equal ground with each other or else massive imbalances due to favoritism will occur.

    I'm of the opinion that it's complete coincidence that characters like Wesker and Vergil and other "cool" characters turned out good while characters like Tron and Hsien-Ko turned out subpar. If the Capcom balancing team really played favorites then they need to get fired and replaced with competent, unbiased people.
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  • RoGE9RoGE9 Joined: Posts: 1,725

    Sentinel was NOT a good character in vanilla, he was just incredibly easy to play in a new game and there was a knee jerk reaction. Now look @ the character, he's basically useless on point he needed that life they originally took away!!!

    He was actually really solid before the patch too, that 1.3 million health gave him more opportunities to TOD and his drones assist stayed out even when he was hit.

    I miss my pre-patch sentinel =(
  • MomochuuMomochuu Little ♥ Monster Joined: Posts: 14,430
    The only nerf that seemed completely pointless in Ultimate were Sentinel's nerfs. Why would they take away his TAC Rocket Punch stuff? What was the point of that? Doom can do the exact same thing except better and they didn't even touch his. What was the point of lowering the hitstun on Rocket Punch in general? And the st.S changes? Why. I lost all hope in Capcom properly balancing a game when they took 5K more health from Sentinel then gave it to Zero LMAO. I can't even think of a good reason for that one.

    1.3M health Sentinel was a little too much considering how good his assist is but 900K is way too low. WAY too low. I really hope if this game ever gets another patch they take a good look at Sentinel.
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  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer They called me, Mr. Pig. Joined: Posts: 5,137
    All good points, hell they even nerfed MODOK. MODOK of all characters? Mr. I have no lows...pffft.
  • IZpawIZpaw Standard Gamer Joined: Posts: 101
    All good points, hell they even nerfed MODOK. MODOK of all characters? Mr. I have no lows...pffft.
    Does Modok really have no low attacks?! I swore his st. M was a low attack.
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  • poryon2poryon2 aka ocean Joined: Posts: 512
    Uhhhhh yea duh. This makes total sense. You think this game would be nearly as popular if Hsien Ko, She Hulk, Iron Fist, and Tron were the top tiers? Nooooo wayyyy.

    Capcom made the smart decision of making the fanboy characters insanely good.
    I'd like to agree with this but I think it's wrong. I don't think characters like Dormammu, Spencer, and C. Viper being really good helps sales, and characters like Thor, Iron Man, and Spider-Man, being low/mid tier helps sales.
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  • ArachnofiendArachnofiend Double Uzis and a Wink Joined: Posts: 2,058
    If Capcom was that petty they would have nerfed Zero to oblivion as a "take that" to Inafune for leaving.

    They're not secretly conspiring to make some characters better than others, they just aren't very good at this whole balance thing.
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  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer They called me, Mr. Pig. Joined: Posts: 5,137
    Does Modok really have no low attacks?! I swore his st. M was a low attack.

    Not being literal, c. M and C. H are lows but their application hardly have the utility of other lows in the game.
  • SKOOKASTARSKOOKASTAR Joined: Posts: 36
    Because they rush shit and they're incompetent.
    Still a fun game though.
  • El_MaizEl_Maiz You can never tell with that guy Joined: Posts: 3,023
    All good points, hell they even nerfed MODOK. MODOK of all characters? Mr. I have no lows...pffft.

    What did they do to nerf him? Was it just the systemwide changes like DHC glitch/hitstun/meter building/airdashes that hurt him?
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer They called me, Mr. Pig. Joined: Posts: 5,137
    If you stand in the shield you can be hit now. Also hit stun deterioration on balloon bomb assist is much higher. There are a few other things I can't remember right now too. Been playing UMVC3 too long to remember lol
  • MacarrattiMacarratti Joined: Posts: 1,421
    If you stand in the shield you can be hit now. Also hit stun deterioration on balloon bomb assist is much higher. There are a few other things I can't remember right now too. Been playing UMVC3 too long to remember lol


    Wait, they nerfed his shield!?

    What the fuck man...
  • ironboy89ironboy89 Beep Boop Beep Joined: Posts: 4,665
    They also nerfed MODOK's ability to lame out people by burning 5 bars at the top of screen. Like you do SJ>Body Attack>Body Attack>Flight> Hyper Psionic Blasterx4-5


    I don't even understand why...

    He is still way better off than She Hulk, and Tron those...
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer They called me, Mr. Pig. Joined: Posts: 5,137
    ahhh yes the super lame out, was a classic ;)
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