The Power of Resets and General Oki Game

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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    In the end, it boils down to:

    knockdowns = good if you have the life lead / not so good if your opponent has the life lead
    resets = good if you want to come back / not so good if your opponent needs to comeback or if a normal combo would kill.

    In this game, you are almost rewarded for being knocked down (since you often have more chances to get out safely than to get hit by something). That's why resets are good: they deny wake up options and make it harder for the opponent to escape your pressure.

    Health management is also huge because it basically decides where the pressure is and who is actually taking a bigger risk on knockdown situations.

    For example: say I land a combo on you and knock you down. I throw a meaty projectile in case you quickstand, but you don't quickstand. So then I stay at max roll distance expecting you to roll but you don't roll. The situation is now reset: we're both at neutral again.

    If I have the life lead, I took zero risk and the pressure is on you because you need to tag somehow and comeback from behind. You need to take risks. I won.

    If you have the life lead, I lost my momentum and you got out of my mixup safely. You won.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
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  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    So how does one go about finding resets? Id like to think we haven't found all of them yet. the ones in which a character can combo into a mixup, like King's elbow smash, are easy to look for in the lab but aren't there other kinds as well, like the ones ultradavid tried to collect?

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  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458
    Poison does not understand the concept of a reset.....but im trying to work something out in that regard.
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  • NedoNedo Joined: Posts: 224
    rofl, I didn't know that every character has a superjump xD
  • MenenMenen Kunimitsu! Joined: Posts: 197
    Honestly I actually didn't believe in this silly oki poki stuff. So I added vulcan on xbox and played a lot of matches with him. I rolled on purpose to try to expose his "art" then when I rolled he did really mean things to me :(. To the point I couldn't roll anymore because my sodium levels were so high I had to take my hands off the controller and meditate and I'd stand up in neutral. Fun games vulcan I like how you play! You could of timeout me when you had the life lead but your the type of player that thinks "It's not a win till someones laying on the floor KO'd, "whats a timeout, eh I dunno?" ATTACK!". Players like you make this game enjoyable, thanks for the fun ^.^!
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    lol yeah I got really mean and dirty setups vs every type of knockdown. It surprises people everytime. :)

    GGs (do we even have a GGs thread?)

    btw I do play really lame sometimes. Depends on the matchup I think and who I'm playing.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
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  • rokninroknin Keeps Trying Joined: Posts: 4,925
    GGs (do we even have a GGs thread?)

    Actually we could probably use one around here. :D
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  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 22,168
    Well, this stuff isn't exactly "Oki" per se, but these are ways that you can mess with the opponent's wake-up so that you will be in range to continue some kind of pressure no matter how the opponent gets up from a knockdown.

    With Ken, if you do his forward throw, then immediately forward jump, if your opponent rolls they'll be rolling in the same direction that you jumped. And if you do a delayed air tatsu, you'll end up in cr.mk range whether the opponent simply stood up or rolled, which you can then proceed to CADC to get back in the opponent's face. I believe the same principle applies to Ryu, as his forward throw is the same as Ken's.

    With Heihachi, if you do his forward throw, immediately dash twice, and then neutral jump HK, if the opponent rolls the opponent will end up behind you and the jumping HK will hit them, and you can then proceed to combo them (and if they manage to block it you can maintain pressure and continue with his devastating mix-up game). If the opponent doesn't roll, the jumping HK won't hit but you'll still be in range to do either :b: + :lp: (his overhead), :f: + :mp: (his low), or :f: + :lk: (frame trap), all of which can lead into full combos on hit.

    With Abel, if you connect with any version of Tornado Throw or the Change of Direction combo (ending with the overhead grab not the low), if you do LK roll as soon as possible, whether or not the opponent rolls you'll still be in step kick range.
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  • Juri_kills_friend!Juri_kills_friend! Leader of the Lili Army Joined: Posts: 2,032

    Around 1:28 in this vid is a reset. You'll see how effective it is in terms of resetting scaling and also optimizing damage. it's nothing huge but i feel it fits here the best.
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  • GenUser!GenUser! Joined: Posts: 2,963
    Really really late to this thread, I feel like I understand this gaME NOW!!!! tHANKS SOO MUCH :D
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  • KumaOsoKumaOso Trust Your Instincts Joined: Posts: 3,752
    Vulcan for president. I've been looking for soft knockdown spots over the last few days, but I really should be looking for resets if I really want to get anywhere.

    EDIT: And I thought I should say this. For whatever reason, the second hit of EX Hakkesho will whiff on a juggled opponent. Hopefully, that'll be fixed.
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  • therooktherook I Challenge My Fate! Joined: Posts: 3,458
    I've been trying really hard but i cant seem to get Poison to do a standing reset....

    Vert told me to get Tapatalk 2
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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    Unfortunately, not all characters have the ability to crumple or reset a bounce.

    But all characters have the ability to CADC out of a link and EX CADC out of a chain. So that's kind of a universal reset but not so good if you don't have a comboable overhead and a fast enough dash. Without a good overhead, your only CADC mixup is to go low, bait or tick throw. But that can still be good at the end of a long scaled combo to get a surprise throw/frame trap. For example: 1 bar 400 scaled damage ending with (EX) CADC throw/frame trap. Then you can get 130/150 from a throw or 300/400+ from a reversal bait or frame trap/throw bait.

    Sorry btw, I haven't updated first post in a while. I'm too busy trying out the new characters hah. Will eventually get back to this with more vids and tech.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
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  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    What is the best way to go around finding a character's oki? Right now with Bryan I am seeing what his best moves are from each of his hard knockdowns (so many) that deal with each thing the opponent can do on wakeup. And what exactly are safe jumps and how to find them? Just jump attacks you can do that an opponent cannot aa due to how long it takes them to get up?

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  • DanteDante HAPPY END - 行き止まり Joined: Posts: 1,031
    Here is my first video for my Guy/Lili Resets/Vortexs I still have alot more to show I hope this will help any Guy and Lili players and I left out some parts by accident I will make sure to include it in the next video. This is great tech for your Oki and Shout outs to FlyingVe for discovering the Dive Kick tech. Next up will be auto correct and roll so I still have plently more to show too bad it takes 2 meters to do this because of Guy.

    Enjoy

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  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    What's the most damage Guy can get from that ground bounce solo? And can he combo into ground bounce?

    Using 2 meters for a reset isn't bad per say, the real problem here is that you barely do 150 damage for 2 bars then go into a reset. That's sacrificing a lot of meter and guaranteed damage for a mixup that might not even land. Ideally, you want to deal a maximum of damage right before you go into the reset. If you could find a way to do like 330 or 400 damage right before the ground bounce, then your reset would be a lot better. That's what makes Flying Ve's reset good: Hwoarang can get a free ground bounce off a launcher or BnB and you just need 1 bar to tag Lili in.
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  • DanteDante HAPPY END - 行き止まり Joined: Posts: 1,031
    What's the most damage Guy can get from that ground bounce solo? And can he combo into ground bounce?

    Using 2 meters for a reset isn't bad per say, the real problem here is that you barely do 150 damage for 2 bars then go into a reset. That's sacrificing a lot of meter and guaranteed damage for a mixup that might not even land. Ideally, you want to deal a maximum of damage right before you go into the reset. If you could find a way to do like 330 or 400 damage right before the ground bounce, then your reset would be a lot better. That's what makes Flying Ve's reset good: Hwoarang can get a free ground bounce off a launcher or BnB and you just need 1 bar to tag Lili in.
    That's the bad thing about it Guy can't combo with his ground bounce and that's the only one he has. Ex run is only a mix up/ reset tool itself I will keep trying and find some other way. But that's all Guy has sadly but I will keep trying and thanks for the advice :)
    UMvC3: Dante/Vergil/Strider Hiryu | Persona 4 Arena: Yukiko I Super Street Fighter IV AE 2012: Guy Rank A

    ‎"The most intelligent people disguise the fact that they are intelligent. Wise men do not wear nametags. The more people talk about their own skills, the more desperate they are — their work should speak for itself."
  • Vulcan HadesVulcan Hades Flea Stance Tea-bagging Joined: Posts: 1,842
    What is the best way to go around finding a character's oki? Right now with Bryan I am seeing what his best moves are from each of his hard knockdowns (so many) that deal with each thing the opponent can do on wakeup. And what exactly are safe jumps and how to find them? Just jump attacks you can do that an opponent cannot aa due to how long it takes them to get up?

    Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2
    Your focus imo should be on finding really ambiguous cross-ups/cross-rolls and roll resets. Safe jumps OS and vortexes are not so reliable in this game. Safe jumps are meaty jump attacks that hit on the last active frames and allow you to block 4+ frame reversals in time. You cannot jump out vs a safe jump. In AE the only way to escape a safe jump is to either backdash, use an invincible escape reversal (like teleports) or a 3f or less reversal. In this game, people can roll and use alpha counters which makes safe jumps kinda weak compared to SF4. So like I said you gameplan should not be based on safe jumping, option-selects and vortexes. Meaty jump ins can always come in handy though. Check vesper arcade and option-select vids for more info about safe jumps and OS.

    About your other questions:

    -If Bryan has good properties on counter hit, find his longest knockdowns and see if you have enough time to safely store a counter hit for free. (ground/wall bounces are good for this. If you have enough time to store a CH then you likely also have enough time to safely raw tag btw)
    -See if you can hop over a downed opponent quickly enough to reset the roll.
    -Find your 2-3 main combo enders that you will almost always use. At least one of them should encourage quickstand (send opponent high in the air), and one should encourage roll (send opponent far away). And design a few anti-quickstand and anti-roll setups for them.
    -Also look for a move he has that can catch most backdashes (and is ideally safe on block).

    I think those are the most important things to look for regarding oki in SFxT.

    EDIT: Yeah so basically, you don't need a million setups for every single knockdown. Just the knockdowns that matter and are recurrent enough. I personally focus on BnB, post-launch, AA and a few others. Keep it simple. Less is more because you need repetition to condition the opponent to fall for your mixups.
    SFxT - Juri, Yoshimitsu, Christie, Asuka, Marduk, Blanka, Bison, Kuma...
    TTT2 - Yoshimitsu, Christie
  • DanteDante HAPPY END - 行き止まり Joined: Posts: 1,031
    Vulcan I think I found a way to combo it I will upload the video tomorrow if I'm right.
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    ‎"The most intelligent people disguise the fact that they are intelligent. Wise men do not wear nametags. The more people talk about their own skills, the more desperate they are — their work should speak for itself."
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    So not that I am focusing on safe jumps and meaties, but the way to test if something is meaty would be to set the dummy to jump and if they cannot it is meaty?

    The good thing about Bryan is that he has very few legitimate enders and they all result in hard knockdowns, fulllscreen kds, or both (in fact I am hard pressed to find a quick to abuse). That is one of the reasons I suspect his oki game is strong, one is not given tools like that by accident, and some moves do not even make sense unless the sweep is beneficial..

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  • DRU192DRU192 rawtag.blogspot.co.uk Joined: Posts: 100
    So not that I am focusing on safe jumps and meaties, but the way to test if something is meaty would be to set the dummy to jump and if they cannot it is meaty?

    I'd like to know the answer to testing meaty moves as well, as I really want to look deeper into Elena's wake up game (possibly her secret strength?) so any tips would be most appreciated :)
    SFXT: Law/Elena - My dream team!
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Well I can spend some time finally this morning on oki stuff, so if you like I can test things with both Bryan and Elena. Not too into her but I do like "bad" characters, and I gotta admit that is a cute face there.

    Why do you think she might have oki potential?

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  • MuayGioMuayGio aka Wulfsten Joined: Posts: 1,389
    I'd like to know the answer to testing meaty moves as well, as I really want to look deeper into Elena's wake up game (possibly her secret strength?) so any tips would be most appreciated :)
    I'm not so sure about Elena's oki game. To have good oki, you need to have either good safe jumps, ambiguous cross-up options, great meaty options, good option selects, or an intimidating close-range threat (like a command throw).

    Elena's unlikely to have good safe jumps because of her floaty jump, and because she doesn't have a way to exert real frame trap pressure besides cr. MP, which doesn't really lead into anything. Her throw game is ok because her walkspeed is ok, but it's not enough. If her cr. MP hit low then it would make for some good high-low pressure with her :f: :mk:, but it doesn't :( .

    Again, because of the floaty jump, her crossup isn't very good.

    She could have some nice meaty setups (like possibly mallet smash, which leaves you at frame advantage), but even then because she's got no follow-up pressure, the opponent can just block and wait for you to exhaust your frame advantage. If you hit with a meaty Mallet Smash and the opponent blocks, you can follow up with cr. MP, and maybe another one, but then?

    It seems like her main mixup up potential at poke range derives from her low-hitting st. :lk: and her overhead :f: :mk: and :f: :mp:, but the former can't be comboed off of (as far as I know), and the latter can (with difficulty), but it's really slow to start up. Because of this the opponent just needs to down-back and try to react to each overhead as it comes. The slow one is easy to react to, and the fast one, while hard to react to, only deals 60 damage, which many opponents will happily take.

    She might have some nice option selects to catch back-dashes, maybe involving Rhino Horn, but frankly, I don't think most characters are so intimidated by Elena up close that they'd want to run away.

    I love Elena, though, someone prove me wrong!
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  • DRU192DRU192 rawtag.blogspot.co.uk Joined: Posts: 100
    I love Elena, though, someone prove me wrong!
    I'll try my best :) I feel there's a lot of potential hiding in LK Lynx tail, but time will tell ;)
    SFXT: Law/Elena - My dream team!
  • DRU192DRU192 rawtag.blogspot.co.uk Joined: Posts: 100
    Well I can spend some time finally this morning on oki stuff, so if you like I can test things with both Bryan and Elena. Not too into her but I do like "bad" characters, and I gotta admit that is a cute face there.

    Why do you think she might have oki potential?

    Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

    The fact that she can combo into so many hard knockdowns (crHK, lynx tail, heavy mallet smash, slide etc) makes me think that Capcom intended her to be a character that specialises in post hard knockdowns shenanigans. Even though her low normals don't provide much threat. The speed, recovery, cancellability & relative safety of Lynx tail means its a move that can't be ignored.

    Block Lynx tail and Elena's safe and can either go high or low again, on hit you then have to deal with meaty high-low mixups involving crLK/crLP, another lynx tail, mallet smash, CADC or back dash to reset the situation. Her EX moves can't be ignored either. She may not be an high damage character but I feel there's a lot more to her, especially in this area. You can only block for so long :)
    SFXT: Law/Elena - My dream team!
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    I see the potential of lynx tail now. Looks terribly unsafe but you can cancel the handstand thing. Since you handstand anyway the notable tell for her unique overheads is gone. Then you can do different power lynx tails and /or repeated lights to mix things up like Christie's mid/low special. Nasty way to go into hard knockdowns.

    Well, let's get to work. The more I see her the cuter she gets, so this should be fun.

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  • DRU192DRU192 rawtag.blogspot.co.uk Joined: Posts: 100
    I see the potential of lynx tail now. Looks terribly unsafe but you can cancel the handstand thing. Since you handstand anyway the notable tell for her unique overheads is gone. Then you can do different power lynx tails and /or repeated lights to mix things up like Christie's mid/low special. Nasty way to go into hard knockdowns.

    Well, let's get to work. The more I see her the cuter she gets, so this should be fun.

    Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2
    A recovery cancelled LK Lynx Tail is neutral on block (according to Ryan hunters frame data guesstimates) coupled with Elena's awesome back dash means you don't have to worry too much. Glad I'm winning you over to the Elena army, lol, can't wait for your findings :)
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  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Well Emblem Lord and you may have cracked the oki code before I even got a chance at it:

    So we established ease of hard knockdowns. Now on their wakeup you can do c.lks, on hit you can simply combo, on block you can go for mallet smash mid to either reset or hard kd again or lynx tail low into the aforementioned mixups involving that. Does not do a great deal of damage on its own but seems good in theory. As a Fuerte player, it gets me excited. Even so, I imagine it is weak to reversals.
    Now in the corner you can do 300-500+ depending on meter off the overhead, so now we are talking.

    As for backdashers, I am unable to confirm because I do not know how to, but both rhino and mallet smash appear to catch them rather easily. And both result in hard kds.

    Now let me see if I can at least help in dealing with forward rolls and roll resets.

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  • DRU192DRU192 rawtag.blogspot.co.uk Joined: Posts: 100
    Well Emblem Lord and you may have cracked the oki code before I even got a chance at it:

    So we established ease of hard knockdowns. Now on their wakeup you can do c.lks, on hit you can simply combo, on block you can go for mallet smash mid to either reset or hard kd again or lynx tail low into the aforementioned mixups involving that. Does not do a great deal of damage on its own but seems good in theory. As a Fuerte player, it gets me excited. Even so, I imagine it is weak to reversals.
    Now in the corner you can do 300-500+ depending on meter off the overhead, so now we are talking.

    As for backdashers, I am unable to confirm because I do not know how to, but both rhino and mallet smash appear to catch them rather easily. And both result in hard kds.

    Now let me see if I can at least help in dealing with forward rolls and roll resets.

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    It's all coming together :) really glad it's not just me seeing Elena's potential now. I guarantee you'll be hooked by the end of you tie with her lol. You tried slide on reaction to roll? I know it has poor recovery but the distance travelled should make it safe, also rhino horn skips over opponents who are knocked down, should make them roll in the opposite direction confusing them and making it easier to open up. 1 more thing, with the distance and speed of rhino horn it'd be interesting to see how late you could leave it before it misses its cross up window.
    SFXT: Law/Elena - My dream team!
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Been experimenting, more successfull so far.

    About the rhino making them roll in reverse, have you tested this besides against a forward rolling dummy in training? I think that the reason they reverse roll is that they are programmed to roll regardless, so they are pressing the opposite direction they should. If a player was to hold forward when you rhinoed they would not roll at all and get up normally: this is a roll reset. It can be just as effective in its own right, but shame.

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  • DRU192DRU192 rawtag.blogspot.co.uk Joined: Posts: 100
    Been experimenting, more successfull so far.

    About the rhino making them roll in reverse, have you tested this besides against a forward rolling dummy in training? I think that the reason they reverse roll is that they are programmed to roll regardless, so they are pressing the opposite direction they should. If a player was to hold forward when you rhinoed they would not roll at all and get up normally: this is a roll reset. It can be just as effective in its own right, but shame.

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    I've actually not tested it at all, i'm just throwing ideas out there until I get home and can test things myself. That roll reset sounds interesting though I wonder if Elena has any moves that can cause that to happen? Hmmm. Also do any of the rhino horns allow you to get back in front of an opponent trying to forward roll away from you because that would be pretty cool. Ps thanks again for looking into this stuff for me :)
    SFXT: Law/Elena - My dream team!
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    She does, it seems. Posting my day 1 findings in her thread now.

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  • grumpy64grumpy64 Joined: Posts: 268
    Not sure if this is new or not but it would seem that you can get a guaranteed CR.mp if the other guy rolls. Not sure how to test it in training mode though. When the opponent rolls if you time it correctly the cr.mp will hit him while he is still in the crouching animation of the roll but after the roll has finished.. What i did was i set dummy to roll then just swept him and tried to hit him. After a couple tries i saw that mp would hit the dummy while he was in a crouching animation.
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Part of me wants that to be true, but really I hope it is not true or worse, character specific. Is it a guaranteed hit in your testing or just a meaty blockable?

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  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 13,217
    Make sure to test it against a recording and not the dummy.

    The training Dummy in Capcom games is notoriously disingenuous.
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  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Yeah, about to test the recording doing it and me trying to roll and block.

    Will have to tell me more, not seeing it.

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  • grumpy64grumpy64 Joined: Posts: 268
    Yeah, about to test the recording doing it and me trying to roll and block.

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    How would you even set that up? know you can record the dummy doing a sweep then cr.mp but unless you actually get the timing right on the mp it want work right. Anyway i hope you are able to do it. If need be i'll post a vid later of what it should look like.
  • grumpy64grumpy64 Joined: Posts: 268
    If this actually is legit tech why wold that be a bad thing? Don't we want to render rolls as useless as possible?
  • SamuelVimesSamuelVimes Joined: Posts: 1,666
    Not really, making them a free c.mp takes away a lot of the game. Ideally they will be like wakeups in tekken, another option to keep in mind.

    It should work in recording if I get the timing right the same it would work against a dummy and I timed it right. So ideally this is a perfectly timed c.mp or sweep that is unblockable because it hits before the player gets control of the character to block?

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  • grumpy64grumpy64 Joined: Posts: 268
    Yes if you want to get the timing i would try it against the dummy first. If done correctly the dummy will roll towards you then get hit by the cr.mp and stand up after the hit. If the hit whiffs you did it to soon and if he is standing when it hits then you did it to late. Hope that helps.
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