Concurrent Persona 4 Arena Tier List Discussion

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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    any new lists from jap?
    我道
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    So, I'm thinking that, with the game out, it would be nice for us to come up with our own proper, community driven match up chart for this game. It's something I've always wanted to do, but the other sections that I've modded were for team based games, and there's less emphasis on individual match ups there.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    it's a bit too early for us tho, seeing the game is barely two weeks old and didn't even come out in europe yet, but I like the matchup-based tier lists the most as well.
    我道
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    But we can already start discussion on it though, besides, the game's been out for some time now in Japan. We can probably use whatever they've come up with as a base from which we can compare our own experience.
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    I think S.lab is going to move up in tiers once people get better with her awkward playstyle. She only needs one knockdown to start her insane vortex. Invisible crossups from double jumping just over your opponent with a laser charging behind you is just too good. Seriously most of the time I don't even know what side I'm on.

    And the fact that most of the cast can't DP out of it, and you can't Evasive action because of how active the laser is... ugh too good.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Went ahead and made a blank matchup chart on Google Docs. Though I figure it would be best to wait until we see P4 played at a major before we start editing. And that's not discounting the need to actually vet folks who should be able to access it.
  • The red strawberryThe red strawberry Fraudberry Joined: Posts: 141
    I think S.lab is going to move up in tiers once people get better with her awkward playstyle. She only needs one knockdown to start her insane vortex. Invisible crossups from double jumping just over your opponent with a laser charging behind you is just too good. Seriously most of the time I don't even know what side I'm on.

    And the fact that most of the cast can't DP out of it, and you can't Evasive action because of how active the laser is... ugh too good.

    Dude Tetsuro I play and lose to your SLAB and Yukiko all the time on xbl. Any advice on Yukiko vs SLAB? I remember Stunedge saying that's one of the worst matchups besides Elizabeth Kanji and another match.
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  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    Dude Tetsuro I play and lose to your SLAB and Yukiko all the time on xbl. Any advice on Yukiko vs SLAB? I remember Stunedge saying that's one of the worst matchups besides Elizabeth Kanji and another match.
    Hey there! Honestly it's really tough to give advice on this matchup since I haven't fought it much from Yukiko's side. Yukiko's biggest issue is that not only does she have a lot of trouble hurting S.Lab's persona, she has a hard time stopping the long start up of his moves, and the moves that will stop it (agi, maragi, and maybe her sweep) all leave her vulnerable if she doesn't hit S.Lab herself.

    On the bright side Yukiko's normals are pretty much all better than slab's. They are faster and most cover more range. I would say to work on your block strings and frame traps. You kind of have to rush slab down so also get good at air turning and IADing up close for a cross up j.A after a block string. You can also bait her DP since slab's is really good and most that I have fought (myself included) love to mash it out when in doubt.

    Keep in mind I'm still learning matchups myself so this could all be way off. Oh and feel free to add me on XBL if you ever want to get some matches in, or just want to test some stuff. I'm always down to play if I'm on.
  • Phillpro1Phillpro1 Joined: Posts: 3,043
    How do you guys feel Elizabeth is tier wise. I play her and love using her. I feel like during certain matchups she does really good in such as characters with non long range normals or not too fast wake up reversals but characters like Mitsu and Yu who have pretty good range on their normals and specials that can easily break Thanatos or bypass some attacks and all of Yu's wake up reversal supers are so hard to deal with.
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  • SUPARNOVAXSUPARNOVAX 必殺技 Joined: Posts: 5,810 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I think Elizabeth is pretty random. You either just blow her up after persona break or she keeps you away so far with Fears, Frozen, and just high damaging BnBs
    "Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as reality. To me, defeat in anything is merely temporary, and its punishment is but an urge for me to greater effort to achieve my goal. Defeat simply tells me that something is wrong in my doing; it is a path leading to success and truth." ~ Bruce Lee
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    she isn't random, but she is hard to keep consistent. You need a few good reads and don't have very much room for errors due to low health.
    我道
  • AceKillahAceKillah behind the scenes Joined: Posts: 15,813
    Liz seems like a matchup dependent character. What I mean by that is she seems to rape some characters (Kanji, Akihiko) but she seems to get wrecked by more characters (Mitsuru, Teddy, Aigis, Yosuke and Yu) yeah those three body everyone.....but still I feels like she struggles to do anything against them. Thanatos is pretty ridiculous though. That said I'm not 100% sure how I feel about her placement but its only week 2 in America so she has tons of time.
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  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    So, I'm thinking that, with the game out, it would be nice for us to come up with our own proper, community driven match up chart for this game. It's something I've always wanted to do, but the other sections that I've modded were for team based games, and there's less emphasis on individual match ups there.

    Went ahead and made a 'filler' chart:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmO7DzQ7vgX2dHEwSW1ZNmNfUHlWcnV5TVZTR0NJa1E

    edit: Added the three worst matchups in the game (via Japan) to the chart. Nothing else should be 7-3 or worse.
    edit2: Added rough impressions of the matchups I have experience with Naoto. Feel free to disagree, especially if your character is on the other end of something.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Went ahead and made a 'filler' chart:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmO7DzQ7vgX2dHEwSW1ZNmNfUHlWcnV5TVZTR0NJa1E

    edit: Added the three worst matchups in the game (via Japan) to the chart. Nothing else should be 7-3 or worse.
    edit2: Added rough impressions of the matchups I have experience with Naoto. Feel free to disagree, especially if your character is on the other end of something.
    I like the idea of using the colour scales fo indicate matchup quality. Let's use yours instead.

    Also, I'd say Naoto vs Kanji is 5.5:4.5 - 6:4 in Naoto's favor.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,396
    I like the idea of using the colour scales fo indicate matchup quality. Let's use yours instead.

    Also, I'd say Naoto vs Kanji is 5.5:4.5 - 6:4 in Naoto's favor.
    since 1-2 and 8-10 won't show up I'd suggest to make the the "2 Red" the "3 Red" and the old "3 Red" the "4 Red".
    the "9 green" the "7 green" and the "8 Green" the "6 Green".
    我道
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    since 1-2 and 8-10 won't show up I'd suggest to make the the "2 Red" the "3 Red" and the old "3 Red" the "4 Red".
    the "9 green" the "7 green" and the "8 Green" the "6 Green".
    While there's no reason for them to show up right now, better / worse matchups may come about as the game evolves, and I'd rather not have to redo the entire scale just because one matchup evolves to be seen as 8:2. That said, maybe I should do this to accommodate 0.5-point increments?
    I like the idea of using the colour scales fo indicate matchup quality. Let's use yours instead.
    Also, I'd say Naoto vs Kanji is 5.5:4.5 - 6:4 in Naoto's favor.
    Noted, set it as 6:4 in Naoto's favor for now. I wasn't sure if I should put it in as 6 or 6.5. Also, I can and will give you edit permission if you want it.
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I feel like Shadow Labrys vs. Yukiko might have to be a 7.5 or 8 in favor of Shadow...it's just really bad for her, I don't know if Yukiko has anything useful in that matchup.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    While there's no reason for them to show up right now, better / worse matchups may come about as the game evolves, and I'd rather not have to redo the entire scale just because one matchup evolves to be seen as 8:2. That said, maybe I should do this to accommodate 0.5-point increments?


    Noted, set it as 6:4 in Naoto's favor for now. I wasn't sure if I should put it in as 6 or 6.5. Also, I can and will give you edit permission if you want it.
    Sure.

    Actually, we really need some way to vet and check on who's opinions on the chart should be considered.
  • NarcowskiNarcowski Joined: Posts: 841
    Sure.
    Actually, we really need some way to vet and check on who's opinions on the chart should be considered.

    I need an email address to add you to the editors' list, I think, so PM me unless you know another way I can do it.

    Vetting information... has always been an issue with community matchup charts. I vaguely remember the Dustloop community trying to put one together for BBCS and failing because there was no good way to verify information...
  • AnneIFrankAnneIFrank Joined: Posts: 428
    It's too early to say for sure, but Labrys seems to hate fighting Liz. Labrys can kill her in 2 combos, but she has to actually hit her -_-. I also believe she has ways to get out of some of Labrys' better traps (just from them escaping in matches) but I need to test that further.

    I get the feeling Labrys might be bringing up the rear on some of these charts.
  • Q.E.D.Q.E.D. Joined: Posts: 105
    What I personally think the matchup chart is currently for Mitsuru:

    Aigis: 4-6
    Akihiko: 6-4
    Chie: 5-5 or possibly 4.5-5.5
    Elizabeth: 7-3
    Kanji: 7-3
    Labrys: 6-4
    Naoto: 6-4
    Narukami: 5-5
    S. Labrys: 5.5-4.5
    Teddie: 5.5-4.5, possible 5-5
    Yousuke: 6-4
    Yukiko: 6-4

    DAT 5A.
  • Zerog65Zerog65 skill comes with fun Joined: Posts: 122
    some of the earliest stuff I have seen and played against I have to say I see teddie as a top tier character the rest are pretty balanced the only one I dont really agree on is Akihiko he has the highest damage in the game but suffers greatly against any character with any sort of a projectile and a good keep away. He does especially terrible against Naoto and Kanji. Noato's traps shut down his rush down and Kanji's grabs make it a guessing game on approach. He also suffers on his persona abilities his jump C and standing C are powerful but can be easily dodged and broken and his gravity can help characters like Teddie and Kanji with strong approach moves. If you do use him I advise stacking meter and abuse his jumping B loops with meter he will be able to use ex weave which gives him invincibility and ex corkscrew(for more damage and invincibility). Oh and during kill rush if you hold back B it becomes unblockable but if a enemy hits you it can be stopped.

    @ pfhor that pic........so awesome.
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  • BarzorxBarzorx Joined: Posts: 15
    Im sorry, but Akihiko is far from being A tier. I have been playing him like crazy, and I can say out of the cast, he's probably the worst character in the game.
    Allow me to explain. He has no cr.LP as a low attack. His only low attack, is his sweep, meaning he has less mixups. All of his combos are dependant of his bar, but so is his ability to get in.
    Name me any one character, and I can tell you why he utterly FAILS against him.
    Also, @Zerog, thats not true. Kill Rush B cant be charged. You're talking about his Hook. And it is useless to charge up in a fight, anyway. At least its useless to get in, unless you use a charged Ex Hook that absorbs damage, which has to be done after a kill rush or something else, so there is plenty of time for the enemy to evade, break it, or whatever. Every character in this game has anti rush down options. And he is the only pure rush down character. You do the math.
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    What I personally think the matchup chart is currently for Mitsuru:

    Aigis: 4-6
    Akihiko: 6-4
    Chie: 5-5 or possibly 4.5-5.5
    Elizabeth: 7-3
    Kanji: 7-3
    Labrys: 6-4
    Naoto: 6-4
    Narukami: 5-5
    S. Labrys: 5.5-4.5
    Teddie: 5.5-4.5, possible 5-5
    Yousuke: 6-4
    Yukiko: 6-4

    DAT 5A.
    Any matchup that doesn't show at least 6-4 in her favor is wrong. The character is seriously retarded.

    Also S.Lab with only a 5.5 in Mitsuru's favor? How do you figure that one?
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
  • TetsuroTetsuro Joined: Posts: 705
    Says the Mitsuru main. She certainly doesn't lose to anything, and has all the tools necessary to deal with any situation. The fact that she can play however she wants (zoning, rush down, ect) should be proof of that.
  • D_DollarsD_Dollars the BASED ken Joined: Posts: 1,655
    mitsuru only slightly tough match up is aigis.and mitsuru vs narukami is definitely even. she is good, but people are overreacting if they feel shes good as aigis. although she isn't far behind her at all.

    edit: i do disagree with QED mu vs chie. mitsuru wins that 6-4. chie gets bullied at neutral and mid range. and mitsuru damage is just about comparable to chie's in certain situations ( fatal counter, which isn't hard to get with mitsu ). chie must work hard to get in and stay in which is hard with mitsu's 5a. 2a. 2b. J.a, 5d, 2d, and ofc, her A/B droit which is excellent for setting up her frame trap game. chies saving graces are the fact she can low profile 5a pretty good, but that loses to a few things such as sweep which can get mitsuru started. i feel chie is only at advantage when she knock mitsuru down, especially in corner where her set ups get even stronger.
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  • CelerityCelerity Professional Necrodancer Joined: Posts: 798
    I believe Aigis and Teddie are considered the only bad matchups for Mitsuru, with Narukami being 5-5. Chie is definitely not favored versus Mitsuru.
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  • farplanerfarplaner Joined: Posts: 636
    As a Yukiko player, I feel like she's disadvantaged in most of the matchups (except against a couple who is bad against zoners in general).
  • Q.E.D.Q.E.D. Joined: Posts: 105
    Any matchup that doesn't show at least 6-4 in her favor is wrong. The character is seriously retarded.

    Also S.Lab with only a 5.5 in Mitsuru's favor? How do you figure that one?

    S.Lab has quite good oki setups against Mitsuru, unblockable throw resets against her which you must call out with a DP, she can call out Mitsuru's block strings safely with her DP since her Persona can cover her DP after with a punch and put you out of punish range, hitting the Persona causes hitstop making Coup punishes or reactionary actions against Coup easier to react to, etc. The matchup is still in her favor definitely, because Mitsuru has to only guess much fewer times than Shadow Labrys has to, but she has more tools to deal with Mitsuru than the other 6-4 matchups, so I gave it a 5.5

    I call the Chie matchup even mostly because although she gets bullied in neutral, Chie has amazing tools to whiff punish Mitsuru's horrendously slow recovery time on whiffed pokes. And when she's in and starts pressuring, the biggest problem is that she has very little answers normal wise to jump cancels (I tried testing it out online when I IB'd the sweep, hoping to get a free 2B afterwards, wound up getting CH'd D:) and SFxT dash A pressure. 2A and Sweep low profile, so relying more on 2A cuts off most of Mitsuru's high damaging options. Her Oki pressure isn't bad as long as you delay your tech, but the fact that her block string pressure is really good scares the crap out of me in this matchup specifically. I feel like you have to do a high risk call out in order to get out of it, which is something I don't like relying on during matchups.
  • Zerog65Zerog65 skill comes with fun Joined: Posts: 122
    Im sorry, but Akihiko is far from being A tier. I have been playing him like crazy, and I can say out of the cast, he's probably the worst character in the game.
    Allow me to explain. He has no cr.LP as a low attack. His only low attack, is his sweep, meaning he has less mixups. All of his combos are dependant of his bar, but so is his ability to get in.
    Name me any one character, and I can tell you why he utterly FAILS against him.
    Also, @Zerog, thats not true. Kill Rush B cant be charged. You're talking about his Hook. And it is useless to charge up in a fight, anyway. At least its useless to get in, unless you use a charged Ex Hook that absorbs damage, which has to be done after a kill rush or something else, so there is plenty of time for the enemy to evade, break it, or whatever. Every character in this game has anti rush down options. And he is the only pure rush down character. You do the math.

    I am not disproving that if anything I agree completely in most of the major tier list Akihiko is dead last or at least the ones I have seen. I wasnt talking bout his kill rush being charged but his boomerang hook during the kill rush if you dont use it constantly it can at times catch people off guard. Also despite people saying his C is useless I find his jump C to gave some interesting zone options.
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  • BarzorxBarzorx Joined: Posts: 15
    @Zerog Akihiko is certainly last, since has the least tools to "get in". There isn't a single character I can call an even match against in this game. Well. Akihiko, I suppose.

    And his j. C is certainly a good tool since its a fast overhead, but its not hard to punish when blocked. Considering a lot of characters have attacks like that that arent as easy to punish, I'd say it's still not good enough.

    I love the character, from both the series and this game, but having lost my 80th consecutive match since reaching A+ and dropping back to C, I am growing tired of how helpless he is in ALL matchups.
  • SubjectiveSubjective Joined: Posts: 171
    Someone on Dustloop had a good point about the overall balance... those in the cast who are supposed to be zoners have weak defensive options (Elizabeth, Yukiko), the supposed rushdown characters have weak mixup potential (Kanji, Akihiko), and the all around characters have no real weakness at all (Mitsuru, Teddie).

    I'm fucking around online with Teddie and winning a lot of matches just by randomness. He's one of the better characters for sure
  • BarzorxBarzorx Joined: Posts: 15
    Kanji definitely has mixup potentials. At the very least, high-low mixups. And if he corners you, he's unstoppable. Try to jump? Get air grabbed. Try evasive maneuver? Ground grab. Hop? Chair attack to air grab. R-Action? His grab AND his own R-Action go through them. Stand still for a sec to assess the situation? Grab, grab super if awakened, etc. He also has a bunch of options to "test the waters" before doing anything.
  • DocCeaserDocCeaser Joined: Posts: 297
    Im sorry, but Akihiko is far from being A tier. I have been playing him like crazy, and I can say out of the cast, he's probably the worst character in the game.
    Allow me to explain. He has no cr.LP as a low attack. His only low attack, is his sweep, meaning he has less mixups. All of his combos are dependant of his bar, but so is his ability to get in.
    Name me any one character, and I can tell you why he utterly FAILS against him.
    Also, @Zerog, thats not true. Kill Rush B cant be charged. You're talking about his Hook. And it is useless to charge up in a fight, anyway. At least its useless to get in, unless you use a charged Ex Hook that absorbs damage, which has to be done after a kill rush or something else, so there is plenty of time for the enemy to evade, break it, or whatever. Every character in this game has anti rush down options. And he is the only pure rush down character. You do the math.
    I agree that Akihiko is far from A-tier and I think he might be bottom 4. It's too early for me to say for sure. I think his mix-ups are actually not that bad. You can easily make opponents fear the low option if you show it to them enough. His ex dash cross-up is impossible to react to. He is very dependent on meter to do things though. My biggest gripe with him is his normals. They aren't bad but seriously lack the range to compete with most of the cast.
  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,984
    to me labry is bottom tier due to the fact she has no real advantage except the ability to build a sub resource around her axe level that can be cross over to rounds. But her axe level is not very consistent so she has to commit to certain style which make her very telegraphic at times. Besides that everyone else can do what she does better.
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    to me labry is bottom tier due to the fact she has no real advantage except the ability to build a sub resource around her axe level that can be cross over to rounds. But her axe level is not very consistent so she has to commit to certain style which make her very telegraphic at times. Besides that everyone else can do what she does better.

    I don't know, fatal counters are a big part of her game and she can get them from many random hits and convert into huge damage. I don't think anyone else can do it nearly as well.
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  • AD A DGLGMUTAD A DGLGMUT OOOOHHHHH YEEEEEEAH! Joined: Posts: 11
    Akihiko is far from A tier in my opinion. Teddie is definitely not A tier either if you ask me. Also, I firmly believe Yukikio is way underrated. I main Mitsuru, but I've had some real success with Yukiko online. Plus, Yukiko is so much fun to use.
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    S.Lab has quite good oki setups against Mitsuru, unblockable throw resets against her which you must call out with a DP, she can call out Mitsuru's block strings safely with her DP since her Persona can cover her DP after with a punch and put you out of punish range

    The punch(I assume you mean 5C and not the qcfx2+C punch super) can't save Shadow Labrys after a blocked R-action unless it's done way early, which you won't get a chance to setup if Mitsuru is in your face. Also players with reactions will cancel their strings into R-action if they see her R-action. At low level play, everything you say might work because the players don't recognize a lot of things.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    IMO, online experiences should be taken with a grain of salt for balance.
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