Trust

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  • monstalobstamonstalobsta Joined: Posts: 29
    cool stuff, congrats!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I have translated some of the stuff into Portuguese, and posted it in a local forum. A link to Kuroppi's blog with XSPR's extra explanations has been added to the Wiki, too.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Awesome! Thanks oldschool and Kuroppi, I appreciate it.
  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    This is really amazing! But when I press the roundhouse button on my horiEX2, it crashes the program. Any ideas?
    Taking shit back to the RESERVOIR
    http://tea-hawk.blogspot.com

    SF2 Code v1.0: t+ c+ T+ r+(-) f g+ m+ s+ v+ M+(-) n+:++ o+ (av by Tat Guy)
    http://web.archive.org/web/19970219205915/hannibal.mit.edu/things/sf2/sf2code.txt
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    This is really amazing! But when I press the roundhouse button on my horiEX2, it crashes the program. Any ideas?

    Thanks for checking it out! The crash you describe would definitely be a new one- have you tried using your stick with the other lua script apps (throwbox display etc.)? You can test by clicking Execute from TRUST, and then in the lua console window that appears stop the script and load one of the other ones. Is roundhouse mapped to Button 6 in the TRUST Mame, and possibly anything else? What happens if you map roundhouse to a keyboard key or try it with another stick? Also I haven't tested this on 64 bit yet, only Windows 7 32 bit and Windows 2000.
  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    If I run trustsf2-hitboxes.lua, then roundhouse works normally and doesn't crash. But if I load any lesson script (like the first block standing script), it crashes.

    roundhouse is mapped to joy1 button 9. that isn't mapped to anything else. If I map roundhouse to a key, it works fine.

    If I map the same button to forward, it crashes too. If I map a different button on the same stick to roundhouse, it works. The button that keeps crashing is the "RT" button on the hori ex2.
    Taking shit back to the RESERVOIR
    http://tea-hawk.blogspot.com

    SF2 Code v1.0: t+ c+ T+ r+(-) f g+ m+ s+ v+ M+(-) n+:++ o+ (av by Tat Guy)
    http://web.archive.org/web/19970219205915/hannibal.mit.edu/things/sf2/sf2code.txt
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    If I run trustsf2-hitboxes.lua, then roundhouse works normally and doesn't crash. But if I load any lesson script (like the first block standing script), it crashes.

    roundhouse is mapped to joy1 button 9. that isn't mapped to anything else. If I map roundhouse to a key, it works fine.

    If I map the same button to forward, it crashes too. If I map a different button on the same stick to roundhouse, it works. The button that keeps crashing is the "RT" button on the hori ex2.

    I tried a few times but could not get a crash. The TRUSTsf2-hitboxes.lua script is just the hitboxes script and doesn't check for button presses but if that works normally it's definitely strange behavior... you didn't happen to edit anything in input-moduleST.lua by any chance? (no reason to do so) If you are able to remap roundhouse and it's just the HoriEX2's RT button, this won't matter but just for kicks please confirm this as line 51 in that lua script file:

    i[n.."HK"] = {x+dx*(n-1)+0x40, y+dy*(n-1)+0x8, "P"..n.." Strong Kick", "P"..n.." Button 6"}

    Is there any error message at all or do both windows (both Mame and TRUST window) just close? There may be a black box appearing (briefly) but that is normal to put focus back on the TRUST UI window after exiting the emulator with Coin/Back button (the other thing I was going to ask to check was if it was mapped to Coin but it seems like it's restricted to RT button on the HoriEX2 and/or the input module lua script. I tested this with my HRAP-EX (Hori Real Arcade Pro EX), and I don't have a button 9 to configure to test it with, though all others seem to work fine in lesson scripts (Buttons 0,1,2,3,6,7,10,11). The closest thing to something like this was a crash when I stopped a running script in the lua console once, loaded another one (Ran it), then Coin to exit generated a crash dialog like Lua Error in LOAD function:
    [path of trust145cRoundhouse.lua]:771: [etc., complaining about my changing the framediff variable] but I couldn't reproduce that and suspect it has more to do with trying to load and track multiple states within the same lesson script than a button issue.

    If anyone else has a HoriEX2 to test with please let us know if you can get this to crash with its RT button!
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    Is there any way to generate random numbers within a script? eg. Suppose I want P2 to walk/wait for a random number of frames between 12 and 20?
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Is there any way to generate random numbers within a script? eg. Suppose I want P2 to walk/wait for a random number of frames between 12 and 20?

    The short answer is yes, I'm pretty sure it can be done (by hardcoding it or editing MacroLua to interpret it) but it's been a while since I looked into this. That was going to be one of the next main features, eg it would loop slightly different scenarios each time.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    WALL DIVE

    I took a close look at the wall dive in TRUST since you guys now know there's more to the wall dive than previously believed.

    That counter to Sector 2 is not as easy as you may think, even if you know the theory. I investigated this in-depth and finally got it. I also came across some wacky random things along the way. This is a report on the findings, which includes links to two videos I put together (below). The video uses a script that starts out showing a "Practice" script you can use to try countering or blocking each of the three sector attacks, however in the video I just use it to illustrate (explicitly) the difference between each sector. Note the white crosshairs that define each character's center to make the distinction. After the Practice, I comment that out and uncomment the Blocking section of the script. After Blocking, I get into the Counters which involve Ryu's shoryuken/dragon punch (DP). First I cover counters (a) and (b) for Sector 1. Then I get into Sector 2's counters.

    Finally, Sector 3 is shown. In the second video, I only cover a successful Sector 2 counter, which I found only after a lot of trial and error.

    Countering Sectors 1 and 3 work fine and as you might expect, however Sector 2 counters are anomalous as MAO explains and require strict input. I have been in touch with MAO and he was also not quite unsure as to why the first video's Sector 2 counter failed (a dp hits when he doesn't press punch for the claw, yet Ryu gets hit when claw does press punch for the claw). Some subtle but elusive edits to the inputs made the DP counter successfully though.

    I can share the savestate I used, however it maybe easier to simply create the savestate yourself. Basically choose claw for P1 and Ryu as P2, and save the state a few seconds after the first round starts (don't move the characters). You may need to change your Windows OS permissions of the Program Files\TRUST\sta\ssf2t\ folder so you can create files there, in case you try to make a savestate but you don't see it there. When you run the script, I highly recommend setting the Slow-Motion speed to Half Speed (select this above the Execute button) as in the videos (links below).

    BLOCKING IT:
    For minimal input to block, I think you can just do it on the exact same frame Claw presses punch in the air for Sectors 1 and 3. To block, opponent must START blocking often by the first or second frame where Claw's claw-arm is below his body and orientated horizontally (the next animation frame has both arms in like a "V" shape, where his wrists overlap and after that, both arms spread out when the red box starts). Due to the frame-skipping nature of ST, which is how it obtains its game speed, this particular animation frame can take as few as 1 frame of the game, or up to 2 to 3 frames of the game, depending on which frames get skipped (which is determined by an erratic pattern). The wall dive itself is very quick, as Claw can shoot past many pixels of the stage during this time and there's no way to react but for frame-advancing, just know that sometimes you must have already have started to block during one of the "claw-arm is horizontally under him" frames. It seems to take 3(?) or so game frames to block-- i.e., from the frame you have already started pressing the blocking direction on the stick, until the frame when you are actually able to block moves in the game. (So say if you started blocking 2 frames before you see any red box, it is too late and even though you blocked before the red, the game hadn't registered it yet to establish your state as blocking yet).

    In order to block the Sector 2 attack, specifically, you need to START BLOCKING 2 frames BEFORE claw will press the punch button. The blocking of a Sector 2 attack is a guess (as are the others) and you are NOT REACTING to anything you see on the screen because by then it is already too late. The first instance of a Sector 2 attack in my script has claw pressing punch for the wall dive in the air on frame 302 and this means you must start inputing block (to the farwall side) on frame 299.[note, might be different from 302 as I've edited the script since writing this, but the point is that Sector 2 blocking is slightly more complicated in that you must hold the direction longer than for the other Sectors.]

    WIDE FACTOR: With regards to the nature of blocking a wide attack (I imagine Zangief's splash fierce (down+big punch in air) and moves like that might work similarly? haven't tested to be sure)... if the opponent starts blocking the wall dive that will hit in Sector 2 while claw is still on the far wall side in the air as he comes down, the opponent can successfully block. Otherwise, for Sector 2 attempts, he must block it as a cross-up i.e. hold the direction of near-wall side. He can start blocking it earlier in that direction; in any case, in the example I have of Sector 2, the "claw-arm is horizontally under him" frame occurs after claw's center (white crosshair X value) has already passed Ryu's center.

    EXTERNAL MIX-UPS: This only deals with the wall dive itself, specifically its 3 Sector (and 3 counter and 2 block) possibilities. Since it is dependent upon something to GUESS which Sector of the 3, as opposed to it being something to react to, there are other things to guess as well while you're doing the guessing. Maybe it's one of the 3 Sectors of the wall dive, but if you try blocking and claw does not press punch AT ALL, the wall dive is so fast that he can land and throw from the ground. I haven't tested this but there are lots of other potential threats besides the 3 sectors of the wall dive itself.

    COUNTERING IT:

    Countering Sector 1 attacks of the wall dive may vary to some degree from my example, which I think does it kind of late (a). So you can also get it out if you do the DP earlier (b). In my first example (a), because it is late, the Sector 1 wall dive attempt actually winds up with claw on the nearside wall at the very end as he gets hit by the DP (Ryu moved to the right slightly and the hitting has an effect on it as well).

    Countering Sector 2 attacks with the anomalous yoga flame motion and releasing the punch buttons proved very difficult. See it's own section for how to do it successfully. One time, I release the jab (light punch) button while claw is still on the farwall side, and the other two when he has crossed back over to the originating nearwall side but no dragon punch or fireball comes out. HOWEVER, tacking on a light kick while releasing light punch (i.e. a "4" to the inputs) DOES get a tatsu, which actually causes the wall dive to whiff, missing entirely but it does NOT actually counter with a dp.

    CHEAPNESS:

    The wall dive is the easiest move in the game for the biggest gains, and has tremendous ambiguity. Getting the counter to Sector 2 wall dives is
    difficult at best.

    Other characters have other attacks in the game that can be difficult to block against, although generally have more to do with the ability to react instead of guess in order to block correctly. The same is true for countering, and in countering it's not just two possibilities but three you have to guess from. What other move, setup, or situation requires the opponent to guess from one of THREE possibilities, especially one of which requires anomalous input-- a yoga flame motion instead of srk motion-- in order to successfully counter? Does any other move or tactic have effectively three attacks in one? And one of those three, an option select by itself? Sector 2 counter attempts will often incur block damage, hit you clean, or whiff completely outside the small window of opportunity.

    I had seen this in Japan many times before MAO taught the tech, but American claw players probably had little idea of what was going on or just how ambiguous it truly could be, attributing failure to counter wall dives that fell into Sector 2 (both their own as well as others') as "skill". Some really did not appreciate being told there was more to understand about it, either.

    The first video (no sound) is here:
    The second video (low sound):

    The Sector 2 counter failing is illustrated from 5:45 until 7:45 in the first video, which shows a little inconsistency and no successful counter. (It also shows an attempt at a counter that winds up being a block for some reason, ONLY on the first iteration of the script. Ever after, it fails to counter and gets hit by the wall dive.)

    I urge others esp. claw players to contribute in the effort to come up with the solution independently. There are two factors I suspect. One is the initial inconsistency (first time the script runs, Ryu blocks Sector 2 attack (failing to counter) begining around 7:10 in the video, but each iteration after that gets hit by wall dive). Again, that just plays into the ambiguity favor of claw and one more thing to fear by the opponent, outside the scope of any particular skill and just possibly an ST problem perhaps due to ST frame-skipping. The other is that claw's dive hitting BARELY on the Sector 2 side (i.e. JUST outside Sector 1 or, the cross-up point, note the white crosshair plus sign in the video frames) could have claw hitting too HIGH in the air (not deep) AND at the same time not enough time to turn around(?) or like, for the yoga flame motion to be Executed quickly enough so that it both starts on Sector 1 side AND has enough time/space to finish once claw reaches Sector 2. btw Note that, in order to block Sector 2 attacks, you cannot just block for as little as one frame (as you can for Sectors 1 and 3) and that you must block for longer over more frames.

    MISC:
    It doesn't seem to matter which side Claw lands on. Sometimes claw lands on left side after knockdown, sometimes right. but it hits in Sector 1. Just BARELY in it (i.e. Claw's center line is the very next pixel over from Ryu's center line, one to the far wall side). Despite having the same save state and exact same inputs each time, I suspect the difference may have to do with how many frames ST skips to achieve its speed. The goal was to get the center lines of the characters to line up: I tried to get the white crosshairs' X value to be the same for each character, i.e. Claw is right on top of Ryu dead center for maximum ambiguity or as close as possible to it. Due to the wall dive's speed in this scenario, just one more frame of left on the stick for Claw would have him go 4 pixels the other way past the crossup point.

    I think there are 20 frames from the time Claw starts the move (up+farwalldirection+kick) until he reaches the far wall. Trying to do the DP one or two frames earlier. As it is, I keep getting hit. Anb if I try to do DP two frames earlier, the DP'll whiff (not counter at all). So from my initial "with and without claw" version of the script, one frame earlier DP gets it blocked, and two frames earlier DP whiffs (neither a counter as desired).

    To fail the counter and get a BLOCK, do the yoga flame motion such that you hit down and no other input (not down-right and not down-left) during the time that Claw is directly above you (i.e. the cross-up point, i.e. when you'd switch directions if you were a charge character in order to keep your charge when crossing up/being crossed up). If claw messes up and does presses punch in the air too late for too deep a hit, you can DP this but if the claw player does it correctly (hits high) you cannot seem to counter this at all (block or whiff a DP, but not counter a properly done Sector 2 attack).

    If you attempt the counter to Section 2 too early, you'll wind up blocking, and if you tack on a kick press for tatsu as you release or next frame after releasing punches, the wall dive will hit you clean out of the tatsu. I tried running the script asynchronously, and a DP came out but I did the claw punch (3) earlier and it whiffed.

    #### COUNTER TO SECTOR 2
    I found it using manual inputs for Ryu and frame-advancing through each time. It barely hits by 2 pixels with this way- will look at it more. Usually whiffed by bordering the hitbox (blue line next to a red line of the hitboxes). For Sector 2 - Counter (h), do the following steps:

    Turn on input display and hitbox display while it runs the first loop.

    When the next loop begins, press all three punches and keep them pressed down for P2@Ryu manually (use jab first so it completes quicker). Actually this isn't required, you can just wait until the yoga flame motion is completed to press weak punch and it should also come out.

    Pause around frame 100 (this is after Claw jumps off farwall but still high in the air before he presses punch)

    Use frame-advance a few times until frame 112

    Start holding down P2's right directional. You're still holding all three punches too. Frame-advance exactly one time to frame 113. (You can confirm this by input display if you have that on)

    Hold down P2@Ryu's right and down directionals and frame-advance to frame 114.

    Let go of P2's right directional, still holding down (and all three P's), and frame-advance to frame 115. Note, at this frame or around here is the frame the characters switch sides.

    Hold P2's left and down directionals, and frame-advance to frame 116.

    While holding left, let go of down and weak punch, then frame-advance to frame 117.

    Let go of mid and heavy punches and keep holding left, then frame-advance to frame 118 or a few more. YOU HAVE TO HOLD LEFT after releasing weak punch. You'll go into blockstun otherwise if you don't do keep holding left!

    A DP should BARELY hit by one or two pixels max.

    Try the same steps again, except exactly one frame later (start inputing from frame 114 instead of 113) and your DP will whiff.

    A DP will also hit starting another frame earlier at 112, 111 and 110 but blocks at frame 109.

    A BLOCK will occur if you attempt it from frame 109. THAT IS YOUR WINDOW, four frames with this scenario.

    A WACKY RANDOM THING will occur if you attempt it from frame 115. Try that 5 or 10 times in a row, from 115. I've gotten a fireball, gotten hit by the claw, and whiffed a DP. Wacky stuff also happens from 116.

    From 117 and higher, it's too late and the claw should hit you.

    XSPR
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    First off, well done and thanks for doing the research on this. Quick question: Why were the counters tested from a standing position rather than on wakeup?

    Thanks again for this research!!
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Good question- while it would be more practical to include knockdowns as well, I just focused on more basic things of the theory itself, and defining the three sectors. Also the savestate was easy to work from and it allowed me to work with more constants rather than add one more variable, e.g. for knockdowns, recovery times could play into that more for variance, possibly. Claw moves so fast in the air during the wall dive which made it a little easier too.

    Without seeing it all go down frame-by-frame and the white crosshairs of the characters' centers, a Sector 1 looks an awful lot like a Sector 2. Since the claw player still benefits even though he may not know exactly himself whether he got Sector 1 or 2, due to the sheer ambiguity of the wall dive, it's very easy to walk away from a lost game thinking that it was one way when it was actually the other or that your stick was broken etc. So I took pains to illustrate something so basic as, ok here's just how to simply block it. If anything, maybe I'll refer to these studies myself when I lose to it and felt overwhelmed. :)

    Knockdowns can be added without too much difficulty in any case. It would also probably be a good idea to add scripts of what happens when P2@Ryu "guesses wrong", and does the wrong counter (e.g. Sector 1 counter for a Sector 2 attack, etc). Simply understanding, ok I got that one wrong because I messed up vs. I got that wrong because I guessed wrong of the one out of three choices might help.
  • LunaSlaveLunaSlave insert title here Joined: Posts: 150
    I have no idea how the technical side of this works, but it looks absolutely brilliant. well done! I wonder if this could work for other old games? Would love to see a similar tool for KOF 98.
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    snip

    Ah ok. Thanks for the response, and once again, thanks for all of the research! These tactics alone have proven how lucky we are to have a program like TRUST for ST.
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I thought I posted something important in this thread already but it seems I overlooked it all this time. If you have used TRUST to make your own unique customized scripts, and are on Windows 7, the savestate you create gets kind of "hidden" which is probably really frustrating. You can still use it and refer to it in TRUST, eg you saved a gamestate to slot 7 and can reference it as &7.sta in a script, however you can't find it Windows Explorer and can't rename it. You can find it in your "Virtual Store" which is a folder kind of hidden itself. Open Windows Explorer or command prompt by going to C:\Users\[your user name here]\ and click inside the path field at the top to edit the path. Add \AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\TRUST\sta\ssf2t\ and it should be there:

    HOW TO RECOVER YOUR LOST SAVESTATES ON WINDOWS 7 (and Vista?):

    C:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\TRUST\sta\ssf2t

    Go to that folder and copy it back to TRUST\sta\ssf2t\ (the real folder).

    You can rename the file eg 71.sta and refer to it that way i.e. in scripts write &71.sta and it will load that savestate. And each time you want to make more savestates, you can do it the same way eg always press Shift-F7 to make the savestate, and just keep overwriting 7.sta after you have renamed them to other numbers.

    Sorry for missing explaining this, I'm sure this must have confused some people! Basically what happens is, because TRUST gets installed to Program Files, when you create data that doesn't use UAC, newer OSes put it in the Virtual Store instead.
  • schlaflyschlafly Joined: Posts: 3
    made this script to test reversals. it's set up for the script to control Ryu (P2) and the user control Chun (P1). for the original save state, i just had ryu push up against Chun and saved it. if you want to switch characters, you may need to change some timing. here's a Youtube demonstration of the script in action:

    just copy and paste the below text into one of the custom .MSI files in /Trust/Macro/macro & put the state in /Trust/sta/ssf2t and it should work.


    ### SSFT2 reversal throw timing
    # speed: turbo 3
    # P2 Ryu does c.HK, walk forward, meaty c.HK
    # P1 Chun must reversal throw. Reversal SBK will work too.
    # If you make your own save state, make sure to replace the &69 with &XX (your state #)
    # For optimal save state, push Ryu next to Chun, then create save state.

    &69 W80-
    D.D6.W10,_L.W54.^L.D6.W80,^D,

    W120!
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Good stuff! btw your video is private, so we can't see it yet. I was able to set it up fine as you described, but I just wondered at first if you had Chun near the corner after getting knocked down or not when I was making the savestate. (She's not or at least, I got it to work without anyone near the corner... also, she is supposed to get knocked down, right? in order to get the Reversal throw when Ryu attempts the second low hard kick.) I'm really glad to see this- exactly the kind of practical thing players can use and it's kept very simple and straightforward!

    I could definitely not get the timing at first. Looking into the proper timing using frame-by-frame, I noticed that you need to throw on either frame 152 or 153 only. 151 and earlier, or 154 and higher will fail. Well, that is according to my particular savestate- might be different on others' savestates, with such strict timing and how ST skips frames. I.e. maybe you guys will only get one frame window of opportunity instead of two frames. Please confirm (pause a little before frame 151, frame-advance while holding Right direction on stick plus fierce (3) hard punch, and try again on next loop to confirm for the next frame). I got Fei Long's stage for whatever that's worth but I doubt that matters whatsoever. The timing is such that you input the throw on the frame that you start to SEE ONSCREEN Ryu's crouching low hard kick start to come out, like only the first frame. Here's my Custom7SuccessReplay.mis script, below to complement yours. I added +.R3 - right after Ryu's low hard kick. It can also be +..R3-, but not +...R3-.

    XSPR


    #### schlafly from TRUST thread on srk ST forum's script-
    #### test reversal throw as P1@Chun vs. P2@Ryu.
    #### I made savestate in center of stage, no corner, hope that's ok

    ### SSFT2 reversal throw timing
    # speed: turbo 3
    # P2 Ryu does c.HK, walk forward, meaty c.HK
    # P1 Chun must reversal throw. Reversal SBK will work too.
    # If you make your own save state, make sure to replace the &69 with &XX (your state #)
    # For optimal save state, push Ryu next to Chun, then create save state.

    #&77 W80-
    #D.D6.W10,_L.W54.^L.D6.W80,^D,
    #
    #W120

    ### XSPR edits below- same script here just playing with P1@Chun's inputs
    ### to confirm I am getting it on the right frame. In my particular savestate,
    ### Schlafly's script gives me two frames. I imagine due to ST frameskip,
    ### the window of opportunity to get the reversal throw varies eg 1 frame sometimes?
    ### Not sure about that just guessing.
    &77 W80-
    D.D6.W10,_L.W54.^L.D6.
    +.R3 # <--- XSPR adding P1@Chun's inputs here. +..R3 also ok. +...R3 fails.
    -W80,^D,
    W120

    !
  • schlaflyschlafly Joined: Posts: 3
    Thought I switched the vid link, but guess I forgot. Oops, should work now

    Chun is near mid-screen, and she should be getting knocked down by the first c.HK. I was toying around with it by first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK, and then going for a reversal SBK on THAT knockdown if the throw failed. I couldn't get the reversal throw working in frame-advance mode though, is there some trick to it?

    My state seems a little different frame wise too, when I toggle the hitbox viewer the red box on Ryu's c.HK doesn't become active until frame 155, and Chun gets sweeped on frame 156.
    I uploaded my save state if you want to check it out, here's the link. Should be P1 Chun vs P2 Ryu on Ryu's stage: http://www.2shared.com/file/ASUpS0Jk/69_online.html

    There's definitely something involving frame-skipping on my save states too. I was trying to get one where you could attempt a built-in DP vs. a reversal move (Chun's Upkicks), but I could never get a consistent reversal. Most of the time they would be reversal, but occasionally not and sometimes don't come out at all - on the same save state. Changing the frame she inputs kick on up or down by 1 can still get a reversal message sometimes. Really weird.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I was toying around with it by first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK, and then going for a reversal SBK on THAT knockdown if the throw failed. I couldn't get the reversal throw working in frame-advance mode though, is there some trick to it?

    I can make a quick video explaining the process I go through in order to find it, but basically it's a little trial and error. You start by saying, ok Chun has to throw AFTER she gets up, and BEFORE she gets hit by the 2nd crouching hard kick-- so try it on one frame in there. How to actually try it involves turning on input display (hotkey 5 which for my setup is the "5" key on my keyboard), and pressing P to pause it right before she gets up or as she's getting up (this is around frame 140 or so). Then while it's paused, frame-advance by using the backquote key. Ok so on my first try, let's say frame 150 or so looks like a good time to attempt the throw. So I frame-advance to 149, then hold down P1@Chun's right direction on the stick and hard punch or mid punch, and while still holding those inputs, frame-advance one more frame to frame 150. I can confirm I got the desired inputs (and didn't "mess up the move" so to speak) by looking at the input display in lower left corner of the game window. That one frame worth or inputs should be enough to get it, so I can let go of Chun's inputs and frame advance a few more times. I see that Ryu trips her, so I know that it's not frame 150, and I have to try it on another frame. So I press the P key again and let the script loop again, then press P to pause it again around frame 140 or so, and frame-advance to say frame 154. It's too late by that frame so I try it all again, by unpausing and letting the script cycle again. I got it on frame 152. (I usually confirm to myself that it actually works by trying it a second time from 152, just like I often press "C" on a calculator like 5 times even though pressing it once does the trick, or like how some people walk up to other people waiting for an elevator and the button is ALREADY PRESSED AND LIT yet they can't resist pressing it, like what, that's going to make the elevator come any faster?) Ok so that works, 152, maybe make a note of that, say add "# frame 152" in the script itself. But I want to have a more comprehensive understanding of the timing window, so I'll reconfirm that 151 does NOT work and also try 153-- which does work. Then, I'll go back to the script, copy it and paste it right below, comment out the original above and work on editing the copy as an automated solution/Observe version by adding Chun's inputs along with Ryu's. I can't say just say "Chun throws on frame 152" in the script, so I again have to go through a little trial and error, and use frame-advance again to confirm if my first attempts are too early or too late. I.e. I know it's 152, so after Ryu's second "D6" I add +R3- but that doesn't work, but since I know it's 152 I can tell if I did it too early or too late using frame-advance when I watch it play back (again, with input display turned on). Another tweak or two will get it.

    btw I noticed you said "first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK" but I'm not sure about the term "meaty" (never have been). I think the term was meant to refer to attacks that were already in the hitting stage or well into the hitting portion, as opposed to what the script has where Chun can stand up before the attack starts hitting and Ryu is still in the "start-up" stage of his cr. HK attack. Chun has a chance to throw because of this (ie I don't think you can reversal throw if Ryu delays his attack such that the hitting portion occurs as she finishes getting up-- and if I'm wrong about that you can test it by just making Ryu's cr. HK start slightly earlier in the script).
    My state seems a little different frame wise too, when I toggle the hitbox viewer the red box on Ryu's c.HK doesn't become active until frame 155, and Chun gets sweeped on frame 156.
    I uploaded my save state if you want to check it out, here's the link. Should be P1 Chun vs P2 Ryu on Ryu's stage: http://www.2shared.com/file/ASUpS0Jk/69_online.html


    No I think that's the same for my savestate too, you're fine. 155 and 156 for me too. Keep in mind that the hitbox viewability presents boxes one frame behind I think. So basically by that point, if Chun hasn't already completed her throw inputs (or started blocking low), she will get swept.
    There's definitely something involving frame-skipping on my save states too. I was trying to get one where you could attempt a built-in DP vs. a reversal move (Chun's Upkicks), but I could never get a consistent reversal. Most of the time they would be reversal, but occasionally not and sometimes don't come out at all - on the same save state. Changing the frame she inputs kick on up or down by 1 can still get a reversal message sometimes. Really weird.

    That sounds interesting but I'm not sure what you mean. Can you describe that savestate in more detail or post the script itself? What is a built-in DP, is that like Ryu will do a DP or block or something safe? Reversal messages should appear regardless of whether or not they actually hit or beat out other attacks. Sometimes in actual games we get a fireball instead of a DP which also gives the message (but loses to the opponent's attack).
  • schlaflyschlafly Joined: Posts: 3
    I can make a quick video explaining the process I go through in order to find it, but basically it's a little trial and error. You start by saying, ok Chun has to throw AFTER she gets up, and BEFORE she gets hit by the 2nd crouching hard kick-- so try it on one frame in there. How to actually try it involves turning on input display (hotkey 5 which for my setup is the "5" key on my keyboard), and pressing P to pause it right before she gets up or as she's getting up (this is around frame 140 or so). Then while it's paused, frame-advance by using the backquote key. Ok so on my first try, let's say frame 150 or so looks like a good time to attempt the throw. So I frame-advance to 149, then hold down P1@Chun's right direction on the stick and hard punch or mid punch, and while still holding those inputs, frame-advance one more frame to frame 150. I can confirm I got the desired inputs (and didn't "mess up the move" so to speak) by looking at the input display in lower left corner of the game window. That one frame worth or inputs should be enough to get it, so I can let go of Chun's inputs and frame advance a few more times. I see that Ryu trips her, so I know that it's not frame 150, and I have to try it on another frame. So I press the P key again and let the script loop again, then press P to pause it again around frame 140 or so, and frame-advance to say frame 154. It's too late by that frame so I try it all again, by unpausing and letting the script cycle again. I got it on frame 152. (I usually confirm to myself that it actually works by trying it a second time from 152, just like I often press "C" on a calculator like 5 times even though pressing it once does the trick, or like how some people walk up to other people waiting for an elevator and the button is ALREADY PRESSED AND LIT yet they can't resist pressing it, like what, that's going to make the elevator come any faster?) Ok so that works, 152, maybe make a note of that, say add "# frame 152" in the script itself. But I want to have a more comprehensive understanding of the timing window, so I'll reconfirm that 151 does NOT work and also try 153-- which does work. Then, I'll go back to the script, copy it and paste it right below, comment out the original above and work on editing the copy as an automated solution/Observe version by adding Chun's inputs along with Ryu's. I can't say just say "Chun throws on frame 152" in the script, so I again have to go through a little trial and error, and use frame-advance again to confirm if my first attempts are too early or too late. I.e. I know it's 152, so after Ryu's second "D6" I add +R3- but that doesn't work, but since I know it's 152 I can tell if I did it too early or too late using frame-advance when I watch it play back (again, with input display turned on). Another tweak or two will get it.

    I got the frame skip test working, I think I wasn't holding the commands down was the problem. I can only get the reversal throw on frame 153 though, 152 and 154 both fail even with multiple attempts on them. Just to be clear, I'm Inputting forward/MP on frame 153 to get the reversal throw.
    btw I noticed you said "first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK" but I'm not sure about the term "meaty" (never have been). I think the term was meant to refer to attacks that were already in the hitting stage or well into the hitting portion, as opposed to what the script has where Chun can stand up before the attack starts hitting and Ryu is still in the "start-up" stage of his cr. HK attack. Chun has a chance to throw because of this (ie I don't think you can reversal throw if Ryu delays his attack such that the hitting portion occurs as she finishes getting up-- and if I'm wrong about that you can test it by just making Ryu's cr. HK start slightly earlier in the script).

    I use "meaty" attacks for attacks where the hitting frames overlap the wakeup frames for your character. I thought in SF2 those can be reversal thrown due to the instant startup on throws (though I'm pretty new to SF2 so I'm not 100% on that). It looks like starting the cr.HK a frame earlier still allows Chun to get the throw in when you do frame by frame mode and input R + MP on each frame, but I'm not sure if the hitbox is active at that point.

    That sounds interesting but I'm not sure what you mean. Can you describe that savestate in more detail or post the script itself? What is a built-in DP, is that like Ryu will do a DP or block or something safe? Reversal messages should appear regardless of whether or not they actually hit or beat out other attacks. Sometimes in actual games we get a fireball instead of a DP which also gives the message (but loses to the opponent's attack).

    For a built in DP, I thought it was where you input the move right before you hit the ground from a jump attack, and if the jump attack whiffs due to a reversal, the DP will come out. If the jump attack hits then the inputs would occur during Impact freeze and not come out. I didn't get near that far when I was trying to create that script, all I was trying to get was consistent reversals from Chun.

    Here's the reversal script I wrote, I just used the same save state as above.

    &69 W20-
    _D.6.^D.+
    _D.W63.^D.U.4.5.6

    W80

    It seems like you get a reversal attack the majority of the times, but just from running this in the background I've seen non-reversal upkicks and nothing come out from the same save state/script. There's definitely less chance of a reversal if I'm holding a button for P2 as well, though I'm not sure if that's an ST issue or an emulator one.
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    So yeah, I got the good rom, and when I start either mame exe or observe/execute in TRUST, it REBOOTS my pc lol. How the hell ?... My system is XP pro SP3.
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Wolmar, could be any number of reasons, including bad RAM, old registry, or sector on HDD. I can offer some suggestions on ggpo next time we're on.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    I havent used these new scripts yet. But i can see how valuable these can be. So i just wanted to say thanks again for mrdhalsim for creating this tool, and continuing to provide scripts and schafly for a scenario thats obviously relavent to many, many players. And doing the testing and stuff for all of us who are too lazy(me, i swear, within the next year ill try it out myself! xD) and people who cant be bothered to do it themselves

    On anotber note, what were you referring to when there's more to it than actuqlly believed? Just the fact thats its more ambiguous than previously believed be ause of some specific (was it sector 2) wierdness? Or something else...
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Thanks Unessential- yeah give it a try, once you see how to edit a script you can create your own in like 5 or 10 minutes and it's not too difficult.
    On anotber note, what were you referring to when there's more to it than actuqlly believed? Just the fact thats its more ambiguous than previously believed be ause of some specific (was it sector 2) wierdness? Or something else...

    Basically I meant that, after Evo and how everyone saw MAO won, that players outside of Japan didn't seem to understand just how ridiculously powerful the wall dive actually is. I'm told that back in the day some top players in the US did know about the Sector 2 counter, but how you'd even come up with that counter without the tools available today to research it is hard to even fathom. Just to guess which sector it will be to simply BLOCK the move is a 50/50 GUESS (Evo's announcers jchensor and ultradavid were good about explaining this guessing element during the tournament, because it often "feels like" you are reacting when you are actually just guessing which way to block). If you want to actually COUNTER it, your chances go down to one out of three- but in practical terms, it's even worse because a lot of the time the claw player can just come down outside of DP range and land safely, and do an attack while you recover from a whiffed DP (or whiffed punch recovery of a wrong sector guess, esp drumming all 3 punches).

    Before Evo, I'd often downplay claw wins and people here would say I'm just whining, "It's just a little baby bear in the woods XSPR, why do you look so scared? bears are just like all the other animals in the forest like deers and squirrels." "Because I got mauled all the time by many claw players, bears are scary, omnivores and ridiculously overpowered" and they'd laugh, but then Evo came and it wasn't just a little baby bear, it was the big mother bear, and at first the baby bear claws were all like "yeah I'm scary, I'm the best," but they all got fucked up by the mother bear who was a lot more dangerous than the baby bears.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    are you saying that MAO is the mother bear and ganelon is a harmless baby bear ?


























    j/k ganelon :P
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    So all Claw players are bears, and all the other characters are like...deer and squirrels and rabbits and shit. That's what I took from this. LOL.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    Hmm i get what you mean now with claw... Havent followed st news since before evo... Havent even watched the ToL yet...

    But reading through your posts again i also recall seeing chuns counter with a standing mk which ive tried and failed. Now i sortof understand why i never got it to work, and also made me think ofna few possibilities why... Now for sure i gotta go in and create a script... Just a matter of when i can convince myself to get off my ass and actually do it .. Lol :lol:
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Since I saw recent pics of ARG and Otochun in tournaments (Otochun's twitter), I again believe MAO was not the scariest thing to be seen by western players.
    If you have used TRUST to make your own unique customized scripts, and are on Windows 7, the savestate you create gets kind of "hidden" which is probably really frustrating. You can still use it and refer to it in TRUST, eg you saved a gamestate to slot 7 and can reference it as &7.sta in a script, however you can't find it Windows Explorer and can't rename it.
    Microsoft: guessing wrong while taking over your own system resources for 30 years, and preventing you from using them properly.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Basically I meant that, after Evo and how everyone saw MAO won, that players outside of Japan didn't seem to understand just how ridiculously powerful the wall dive actually is. I'm told that back in the day some top players in the US did know about the Sector 2 counter, but how you'd even come up with that counter without the tools available today to research it is hard to even fathom. Just to guess which sector it will be to simply BLOCK the move is a 50/50 GUESS (Evo's announcers jchensor and ultradavid were good about explaining this guessing element during the tournament, because it often "feels like" you are reacting when you are actually just guessing which way to block). If you want to actually COUNTER it, your chances go down to one out of three- but in practical terms, it's even worse because a lot of the time the claw player can just come down outside of DP range and land safely, and do an attack while you recover from a whiffed DP (or whiffed punch recovery of a wrong sector guess, esp drumming all 3 punches).

    Before Evo, I'd often downplay claw wins and people here would say I'm just whining, "It's just a little baby bear in the woods XSPR, why do you look so scared? bears are just like all the other animals in the forest like deers and squirrels." "Because I got mauled all the time by many claw players, bears are scary, omnivores and ridiculously overpowered" and they'd laugh, but then Evo came and it wasn't just a little baby bear, it was the big mother bear, and at first the baby bear claws were all like "yeah I'm scary, I'm the best," but they all got fucked up by the mother bear who was a lot more dangerous than the baby bears.

    While I agree that US players didn't realize the extent of wall dives or how MAO made wall dives so difficult to counter, the sector system isn't the end-all explanation for wall dive counters that you seem to think it is. I believe I already mentioned this point last time. The sector system was just a simple way for MAO to explain how to counter wall dives in normal knockdown situations mid-screen.

    However, the system doesn't apply in all situations and anybody who thinks that way doesn't fully understand wall dive mechanics in the game engine. There are numerous other wall dive positions, such as near the corner, where there are many more nuances than can be explained by sectors. Shotos can also drastically increase their counter chances with more complex OS at any position (although some may be impractical since MAO didn't mention anything else). As for coming up with better counters, Trust is a great tool but the process isn't that complex with the tools I always used: frame-by-frame and save states in Kawaks.

    I would also still maintain that you were just whining about claw unless MAO was the only one you played, which is doubtful since he lives in Chubu. Top US players had already faced Japanese experts such as Noguchi, ARG, and Tokido in casuals. Their wall dives (and of course, mine as well) weren't incredibly hard to counter in comparison to MAO's. US players even knocked out ARG in a minor tourney. Therefore, US confidence was a result of actual experience with the "big bears" and not some irrational hubris. I can understand how you wouldn't be aware of these games since they weren't mentioned on SRK but that's why it's important to know all the facts.

    As for me, I acknowledge that I can't consistently match against a JP wall dive master unless I stop playing online. The claw mirror is so dependent on exact wall dive charge timing that my online-affected timing—a problem that I noted experiencing even back in SBO 2010 after 2 weeks of offline practice—is a deal breaker. All my whiffed jumps and kicks are testament to improper timing. Unfortunately, my location isn't the most conducive for offline practice. Nor is ST a priority for me at the moment to improve that or other aspects of my game. But I at least wanted to get some facts straight.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    While I agree that US players didn't realize the extent of wall dives or how MAO made wall dives so difficult to counter, the sector system isn't the end-all explanation for wall dive counters that you seem to think it is. I believe I already mentioned this point last time. The sector system was just a simple way for MAO to explain how to counter wall dives in normal knockdown situations mid-screen.

    Yes, MAO's sector explanation was a very good and simple way to explain a very complex attack, and I only tested mid-screen to make it even more simple. Before this, the reasonable assumption for everyone is that, in order to counter it, you either DP left or right depending on which side you think he'll come down on. How anyone is supposed to just figure out, on their own, that a THIRD counter, requiring a completely ABNORMAL sequence of inputs is required, is beyond me-- particularly when it is a motion completely OUTSIDE THE SCOPE of his entire moveset (ie yoga flame motion to get a DP? the heck is this, Rainbow Edition??).

    I mean let's say there's some guy who has never played the game before and picks up the game. It's reasonable to say that it won't be long for him to figure out that he has to hold back to block. And after a while, block overheads without problem and understand they need to be blocked standing-- simply after playing the game a while and recognizing which attacks act as overheads. This Sector 2 wall dive counter isn't quite like that. Even if you are "in the know", and a good guesser, there is still fairly strict timing for it.
    However, the system doesn't apply in all situations and anybody who thinks that way doesn't fully understand wall dive mechanics in the game engine. There are numerous other wall dive positions, such as near the corner, where there are many more nuances than can be explained by sectors. Shotos can also drastically increase their counter chances with more complex OS at any position (although some may be impractical since MAO didn't mention anything else). As for coming up with better counters, Trust is a great tool but the process isn't that complex with the tools I always used: frame-by-frame and save states in Kawaks.

    I'm not quite sure what you're saying... I think we all agree that the wall dive is a ridiculously powerful move in any case. If you are saying it is even more ridiculous in the corner, I don't doubt it! While cornering yourself against claw might help with the wall dive (in reducing his Sectors to only one, making it possible to consistently block without having to GUESS), other problems crop up just as quickly. So if there's some nuance(s) of the wall dive near the corner making the move even MORE complex, enlighten us by all means. And if Kawaks works too that is great. TRUST has integrated input and hitbox display, as well as scriptability for sharing and messing around (and easily repeating each others findings etc) but if it means the difference between someone testing something/making a video and not, by all means go for it.
    I would also still maintain that you were just whining about claw unless MAO was the only one you played, which is doubtful since he lives in Chubu. Top US players had already faced Japanese experts such as Noguchi, ARG, and Tokido in casuals. Their wall dives (and of course, mine as well) weren't incredibly hard to counter in comparison to MAO's. US players even knocked out ARG in a minor tourney.

    When did ANY US player knock out ARG much less play him?? I think you're confusing him with Tokido- who hasn't focused on ST (or even played much of it outside of tournaments in America only?) in many years now and I think the US player you're thinking of is not either of the Wolfe brothers but MrBob who has played in Japan for years. So I would call Tokido a baby bear. I don't think Noguchi has lost to an American player, that I can think of off the top of my head either. In any case, ARG is a noted step up from both Tokido and Noguchi and MAO is a lot closer to ARG. As for me, MAO doesn't have to try very hard at all to win, and neither do other big bears he can beat here. There are definitely other claw players here that aren't even known outside of Japan that seem just as deadly with that wall dive and close to MAO's level. When I played ARG a few times I think he was beating me with like two buttons. I'll just say I could probably take out Tokido, if he ever picks it up again. (Obviously, I'd beat them all, but I played online and that screwed me up and ST isn't a priority. ;) )
    Therefore, US confidence was a result of actual experience with the "big bears" and not some irrational hubris. I can understand how you wouldn't be aware of these games since they weren't mentioned on SRK but that's why it's important to know all the facts.

    Here are some facts: Among 30 developed countries, the US ranks 25th in math, and 21st in science. In almost every category, we're behind.

    Except one.

    Confidence:
    youtube com watch?v=ZKTfaro96dg#t=48s

    (btw if you pause it at around 58 seconds, note which country is listed at the top of the list.)
    As for me, I acknowledge that I can't consistently match against a JP wall dive master unless I stop playing online. The claw mirror is so dependent on exact wall dive charge timing that my online-affected timing—a problem that I noted experiencing even back in SBO 2010 after 2 weeks of offline practice—is a deal breaker. All my whiffed jumps and kicks are testament to improper timing. Unfortunately, my location isn't the most conducive for offline practice. Nor is ST a priority for me at the moment to improve that or other aspects of my game. But I at least wanted to get some facts straight.

    For the record, I would like everyone to note that I am the best driver in the entire world and of all time, just in case anyone had any doubts. However due to the restrictive barriers to entry in professional racing, I have decided to focus on ST at this time. And I still cannot beat many players in Japan and I don't really have any excuse.[/quote]
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Mr.D, what he means is that in the corner Claw does not have a cross up game. You can wall dive all you want in sector 1 and sector 2 and nothing happens, the opponent only needs hold back and he can block wall dive all day. Wall dive doesn't get more dangerous, quite the opposite. Of course, that's where Izuna drop comes into play, but it's risky as many characters have good AA that will hit before Claw gets close enough to Izuna. DeeJay standing MP, Shoto standing LP and HP, and other moves like those will hit him. Going behind the opponent for a sector 3 hit is impossible in the corner, that's why Damdai's main anti-Claw strategy is to work the corner to his favor using O.Ken, who has a fast DP with invulnerability all the way up and the fierce DP having good horizontal range. Claw has no choice but to attack from the front, jumping over fireballs and risking a DP. I think on a better day, Damdai would have done better against MAO. Maybe not win, but definitely better. MAO got him to the center of the stage and that's when he starting killing Damdai's game, because Damdai had to guess which side to DP since he didn't have the corner to protect him anymore.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I'm not quite sure what you're saying... I think we all agree that the wall dive is a ridiculously powerful move in any case. If you are saying it is even more ridiculous in the corner, I don't doubt it! While cornering yourself against claw might help with the wall dive (in reducing his Sectors to only one, making it possible to consistently block without having to GUESS), other problems crop up just as quickly. So if there's some nuance(s) of the wall dive near the corner making the move even MORE complex, enlighten us by all means.

    Yes, I was referring to wall dives being more powerful near the corner due to multiple side switching. If you know exactly where your opponent's midpoint is, you can cross back and forth and mess up inputs further (but there's a fine line to doing it so that it doesn't help the opponent more easily pull off a reversal). That's why the sector system comes with constraints. I'm certain MAO knew about this situation but he just wanted to keep things simple for his explanation.

    Nobody I've played in the US or Japan can stop my wall dives near the corner, but that's also a tough spot to score a knockdown. There are counters even there for shotos that I've been able to pull off at times but they may be too difficult to perform consistently compared to just blocking. I was surprised at MAO's wall dives because he was able to nail them mid-screen and no US shoto player seemed to have a consistent answer. I'm not sure if he has particular timing, positioning, and/or something else, but avoiding reversal OS hasn't been something I've been able to do with my knockdown wall dives.

    In the corner, wall dives are useless against most characters. In addition to what Moonchilde mentioned, there are guaranteed punishments, but they differ depending on the corner.
    When did ANY US player knock out ARG much less play him??

    It was one of the pre-SBO team tourneys during the US team's trip last year. If I recall, it was either immortal or riz0ne who defeated ARG in a surprise to everyone. I heard you met up with the gang during their visit so feel free to ask them yourself if you need further details. Knowing that might help explain why I think your classifications don't make much sense and why US players thought they had a fair chance against MAO until they played him. Casuals don't mean much but if we consider that JP players play similarly as they do in tourneys (i.e. much less sandbagging than here), then every US player who played your other "big bears" in casuals found MAO in casuals to be much more difficult.
    Here are some facts: Among 30 developed countries, the US ranks 25th in math, and 21st in science. In almost every category, we're behind.

    I don't dispute that, but I'm not sure how that relates to ST or specific individuals. For example, the US has the most wins for the Nobel Prize in Physics and all the other physical fields. Does that indicate the cream of the crop in physics is in the US? And does that suddenly translate into ST ability?

    Anyway, you misinterpreted my last paragraph. I'm not saying I've ever had the ability to beat MAO or Tokido—who NKI once said was the top claw mirror specialist in Japan no doubt thanks to his wall dive timing and positioning. I was just explaining why the mirror would continue to be one of my most difficult offline matches no matter how much I practiced on GGPO.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I don't remember any of the guys I met up with last year ever saying that ARG lost to an American player. I could be wrong but in any case yes, we did meet and we played right before they flew back. (After confirming he's ok since Sandy, I asked Damdai to be sure but haven't gotten a reply back yet.)

    While you may (or may not) be good at doing wall dives, I am not convinced you're anywhere near the Japanese level. I mean I could say, between us, I'm undefeated and never, ever lost to you, not even once. I didn't mention Nobel Peace prizes, I was pointing out the difference between "facts" vs "confidence" where the US ranks low in one, and high in the other. I don't think I misinterpreted your last paragraph- I was agreeing about ever having the ability to beat MAO, I was just saying that it doesn't matter whether GGPO screwed up your timing or not. Maybe it's due to GGPO, maybe due to something you don't know. Right now, you don't really know what you don't know so you can't say for sure what would happen if it weren't for GGPO's effect. In order to find out for sure, maybe you could become the hunter in the woods, and go hunt down all those bears in Japan. But you never know, you could do that, chase one down and think you have a little baby bear cornered, but then all of a sudden, you turn right around and run screaming from it. How could that possibly happen? You never know. The big mother bear is standing behind it, and accommodating for the GGPO effect didn't help.

    btw Let's please continue non-TRUST stuff in another thread (and link to these posts from there).
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    Mrdhalsim, please check my latest post on that xup thread if you havent already, i go into detail about the frameskip issue.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    (After confirming he's ok since Sandy, I asked Damdai to be sure but haven't gotten a reply back yet.)

    damdai is tied up in my basemenmt, thats why he ahsnt replied to you. ill tgell jim you saifdhia


    stupidity-alert-man-gets-robbed-and-tied-up-with-playstation-cord-2.jpg
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    Right now, you don't really know what you don't know so you can't say for sure what would happen if it weren't for GGPO's effect. In order to find out for sure, maybe you could become the hunter in the woods, and go hunt down all those bears in Japan. But you never know, you could do that, chase one down and think you have a little baby bear cornered, but then all of a sudden, you turn right around and run screaming from it. How could that possibly happen? You never know. The big mother bear is standing behind it, and accommodating for the GGPO effect didn't help.


    1331747663_bear_playing_with_himself.gif
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    lol
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    While you may (or may not) be good at doing wall dives, I am not convinced you're anywhere near the Japanese level.

    I agree that it's not certain how well I'm performing wall dives. Based on results, I'd say MAO is clearly doing something better in mid-screen scenarios. I'm just saying mine are good enough that in certain situations, nobody in the world can stop them.

    I brought up Nobel Prizes to illustrate how your analogy about confidence vs. skill in science for little kids doesn't consider at all the skill in science for top level scientists. US kids may be confident about science because we have the world's highest rewarded scientists here, even if the majority of people aren't any good in science. I was showing how the "facts" you pointed out only show a limited perspective that could easily be viewed in an opposite manner (e.g. that confidence comes from national pride in top level ability), not unlike your perspective on ST.

    As for the claw mirror, sure, there could always be another factor than online charge timing. But again, that wasn't my point. My point was that even if I knew everything, charge timing is so critical of a point in that specific matchup that I still couldn't consistently win. MAO's play should easily show the fundamental importance of fast wall dives to you, even if he has other tools in his repertoire.

    As for the comparison between you and me, the problem with your analogy is that we've never played in any form at all. I would gladly mm you offline even in my current state but I suspect you don't have any plans to return to the US for an ST tourney and you consider claw too difficult for your main anyway. I'm not sure if I made this clear but back in 2010, I already played the JP folks you refer to as apex predators in casuals. There were lion kings that had an edge on me and tiger moms that crushed me, but there were also mama bears that I matched blow for blow, alpha wolves that had trouble against me, and crocodile ancients that I bludgeoned.

    I had over a 10-win streak at Mikado during the packed Wed. session the week of SBO 2010—which is how I discovered the way Mikado links its machines up for freeplay. Now, I don't think casuals mean much, even in serious-play-all-the-time Japan, but in light of tourney results elsewhere, I don't see why you're so quick to dismiss US players. Peg us down a notch or 2 under our Japanese brethren after this Evo, fine, but us old eagles are still dangerous to all but the wildest animal mothers.

    Anyway, since you started the non-TRUST talk in this topic, I'd rather finish it here this time around. I suppose if there's one thing we can both support, it's the TRUST tool.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I heard back from Damdai. He said the only time they met up with ARG, he thinks the only person to beat him was YuuVega in the tournament and mentioned no wins by any US player against him period.

    re: Nobel Prizes, it ain't just the little kids, many of whom have grown up: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/opinion/26tue2.html?_r=0

    Ah, you found me out-- yes, I made the statement about never losing to you while never having played you in the first place. I felt it was apt to express it that way for your view about how well you think you'd do against Japanese players, with the same veil of supposed reasons as to why. and, although I'm no mm fan in general, esp vs. a claw player but to prove the point, I will see your mm proposal, and RAISE you a mm proposal! I don't imagine you have any plans to return to Japan for an ST tourney or the next XMANIA but if you decide to show up to the next one, we can come to some arrangement.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Is damdai sure they only met one time? For example, I would think they saw each other at SBO as well. Was there no east vs. west style line tournament that they played against each other in? If not, then I'll ask my contact later. If it was just a casual match win against ARG that I heard so excitedly about (that broke a win streak or something?), then I'll definitely apologize for the mistake since I agree that casual matches aren't a big deal.

    As for that report on skilled workers, OK, but it still only addresses regular folks. I brought up Nobel Prizes because we were discussing some of the best comp around, not regular joes. And amongst the very best scientific talent, the US is still on top.

    As for your comment about playing me, I already stated how it doesn't match what I'm claiming. We haven't played at all, not even online. But I've played the Japanese players I'm referring to in-person, even if it wasn't in-tourney. Playing and not playing is a black-and-white difference in expectations. As I've repeated numerous times now, that experience is the whole reason behind US confidence, and not just mine either.

    I have no current plans to return to Japan but if I do, I'll be glad to accept our mm and show you my perspective. How badly do you expect me to fare against the mama bears by the way? Since Evo, I won't say I'm near equal but I'd be willing to bet that except against 5 or so of the toughest players, I won't lose worse than 5-3 to the rest of Tokyo's best players. I believe I'd win some too but I'm not willing to bet that except on a case-by-case basis being as out-of-shape as I am today. I don't think losing 5-3 is very impressive with claw (and that MAO could certainly do better) but if you're expecting something like 5-1 or worse because of a perceived difference in skill and are willing to put serious money behind that belief, as well as on our mm, then we might be able to work a deal out for a visit perhaps as early as this January.
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