Warriors Fate: Street Fighter story thread, revived

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  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    Thank you Kataklysmic. Nice investigative reporting. Big thanks to Azrael too (even if he doesn't see it).
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 980
    It actually crossed my mind to ask him about some translations a few times, but I didn't, because we've never talked about any topic and I know he's been busy with his family and all. Nice to read. Thank you lots.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Feel free to drop him a PM if you want, Vasili. I'm not making this up.

    I will. Thanks Kataklysmic.

  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    I kind of skimmed through the thread you linked, and most of the translations there were pretty awful.

    It brings me much satisfaction to see someone fluent in Japanese echo what I've been saying for a couple years now.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    edited August 2013
    It took nothing less. I don't understand why I'm the one who had to do this. The best anyone had around here was mountains of bullshit typed ad nauseum.
    vasili10 wrote: »

    I will. Thanks Kataklysmic.

    No problem. Just be sure to ask him for some good lessons on understanding Japanese, will you? Because you really have no leg to stand on anymore. Azrael didn't learn by reading a book like you apparently did. He communicates with Japanese every hour of his motherfucking life. And everyone who's been to this site for the last ten years knows that.

    The sheer disappointment I have right now is baffling. It was bad enough that anyone reading the plot guide would have to come to you for a translation of a TRANSLATION. But to know the result is more than likely a misinterpretation after the fact? I never believed you'd be the type that would lie, but this is ridiculous. Ultima said it best. The plot guide really is no better off than a goddamn wiki now.
    Post edited by Kataklysmic on
    " Scrubs keep our community alive, not top players, everyone (even myself at times) seem to forget that."
    - Arturo Sanchez, aka Sabin
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    It took nothing less. I don't understand why I'm the one who had to do this. The best anyone had around here was mountains of bullshit typed ad nauseum.
    vasili10 wrote: »

    I will. Thanks Kataklysmic.

    No problem. Just be sure to ask him for some good lessons on Japanese, will you? Because you really have no leg to stand on anymore. Everybody who's been on this site for the last ten years knows Azrael communicates with Japanese every hour of his motherfucking life, and his word easily trumps yours.

    The sheer disappointment I have right now is baffling. It was bad enough that anyone reading the plot guide would have to come to you for a translation of a TRANSLATION. But to know the result is more than likely a misinterpretation after the fact? I never believed you'd be the type that would lie, but this is ridiculous. Ultima said it best. The plot guide really is no better off than a goddamn wiki now.

    Wish I had known of Azrael...only really seen his name thrown around a couple times. Honestly, thanks for going the extra mile to approach the situation from another angle (and a very effective one at that). Whatever side of a discussion I'm on, right or wrong, I do honestly appreciate the effort, Kataklysmic just as I appreciate Azrael taking the time to use his linguistic expertise. I'll have to shoot him a thank you PM for the work (though honestly, I'd expect a "who the hell are you?" response hah).

    Also, mea culpa on not taking your approach. Knowing Azrael, or someone else I could ask for Japanese translations, would have allowed me to do so. Only person I know that speaks fluent Japanese is my buddy David but he's currently in the air-force so he can't help me with translations at the moment. Not an excuse, just saying sorry for not being able to seek answers in the same way. Thanks again.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG

    No problem. Just be sure to ask him for some good lessons on understanding Japanese, will you? Because you really have no leg to stand on anymore. Azrael didn't learn by reading a book like you apparently did. He communicates with Japanese every hour of his motherfucking life. And everyone who's been to this site for the last ten years knows that.

    Hold on a second dude. If you mean I learned by teaching myself, that's not the case. I was taught the language in school, and I was taught to be able to read and understand pretty much anything in the language with the aid of dictionaries for words I'm not automatically familiar with. That's what I've been doing all this time, and it's what allowed me to initially verify most of everything Saiki had presented.

    Also I had always allowed the opportunity for others fluent in the language to judge my efforts, because Tiamat did the same. This is the first time I've ever received such a thorough strike-down from anyone like that though, and from someone I had previously thought supported my findings. I'm not making any of this up.

    In any case, because I look to have been counted as completely incapable of what I thought I was justified as able to do, I'll see that the guide and the appendices are taken away from everywhere since they no longer serve their intended purpose the way they presently are. I'm sincerely sorry to everyone for all these years, and I really don't know what else to say to make amends. Sayonara minna-san...this is my last post here.

  • AzraelAzrael Epic Calling! Joined: Posts: 3,258
    You shouldn't beat yourself up over it. Japanese is really fucking hard. They leave out a lot of pronouns that English usually uses and you have to assume/guess who or what they're talking about. The language structure is not similar at all, and that's not even counting cultural differences and just the way Japanese people think to communicate things. Plus SF is an entertainment medium; you have characters talking using archaic language and pretty much slang. The best way to overcome mistakes is to learn from them. :)

    Torem_Kamina:

    Definitely need to work that EX Tatsu wake-up into my gameplan. Sacrificing damage and stun meter for psychological damage. That's some next level shit right there.

  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 980
    edited August 2013
    vasili10 wrote: »
    In any case, because I look to have been counted as completely incapable of what I thought I was justified as able to do, I'll see that the guide and the appendices are taken away from everywhere since they no longer serve their intended purpose the way they presently are. I'm sincerely sorry to everyone for all these years, and I really don't know what else to say to make amends. Sayonara minna-san...this is my last post here.

    You just need to separate confirmed things from speculations and theories. Just admit that there are things that are unclear and that they have their room in the guide. The problem here is that you always tried to get an absolute truth that did not exist in many cases. I have always brought the "Charlie Nash" thing as the most clear example because of how trivial it is and how you don't even consider mentioning it in the guide. It made it evident that you would just not consider anything that went against your ideas. It's a problem of attitude that you can change, not incapability.

    I'm pretty sure that you can understand Japanese and do a valuable job translating stuff as long as you don't try to favour your speculations by reading between lines too much. That said, those speculations are always welcome and they might even be right, you just have to understand them for what they are and not try to sell them as unquestionable facts.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    Holy melodrama Batman!

    This doesn't show that you should leave and give-up Vas. It just goes to show that the plot guide is something that is, rightfully, too big for one individual. Sole authority on something like that is dangerous because of how much room there is for misinterpretation. That's why people, for so long, have been trying to convince you of other outlooks, views and opinions on stuff in the guide. Not to argue with you, or because of some personal vendetta...but because of personal beliefs that lead to personal points of view. It is an attempt to help. The problem arises when criticisms of errors in the guide are taken as personal. Then it becomes an issue of attitude, because it becomes about defending one's self and one's integrity instead of honestly discussing the content and the merits of different points of view.

    Still, the situation has to sting at the moment...and it sucks sure...but it happens and it's only as big a deal as you make it. You're passionate about this stuff and it shows. I'm sure if you give it some time, you'll realize taking the guide down and going away A) isn't helpful to Street Fighter or it's fans and B) isn't really what you want to do. Right now you're the quarterback that fumbled the ball...but the quarterback isn't the only guy on the field. Yeah it's easy to blame yourself and take your ball and go home, but the plot guide is something that you took over. It's gone through different people and had different peoples input. Team effort. Community effort. The community still exists and people that are interested in helping the plot guide still exist.

    I've said before I think you're a smart guy...I think you'll come to a better decision than one made in the heat of the moment like your last post. Prove me right.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    when the plot guide was in Tiamat's hands he got or think he got most of the info from Saiki and he hasn't post here in a long time.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    We've had plenty of disagreements Vas, but it's never been that I don't think you contribute valuable stuff to the guide.

    All I've ever said, and continue to say, is that you need to be willing to clearly mark where something is uncertain, and not freak out when somebody suggests that POSSIBLY something is other than what you said. Just put all the evidence in there and let people decide, you don't have to be responsible for deciding truth on your own.

    Just look at tiamat's portions, there's tons of places where he just says "i'm not sure" and that's perfectly fine.
    Post edited by MuKen on
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 12,969 mod
    edited August 2013
    Vasili10 I understand that you're upset and all and if you don't wish to contribute to the Plot Guide that's well and fine. However, sinking it so no one can see it I feel is wrong and an incredibly rash action since a lot of us put tons of work into it. Not more than you or Tiamat have mantaining the thing, but still.

    At the very least if you do have the latest copy feel free to E-mail it to me since I did enjoy reading it.

    For what it's worth maybe because I'm older or whatever and have read so many bad comics, seen bad movies and junk I often take the parts of stories I like and role with it so I don't have to argue about what's official and what isn't.

    In my head Poison had an operation, Gouken survived via what Udon said and while I'm at it, Gen's still dead because he NEVER had to save Chun-Li man fuck him. :P

    I don't argue that anything I said is official or canon, I just feel they could've done A LOT better with Gouken, Gen and Poison and since they didn't lol whatever it's still a fighting game. Nothing in it is written in stone until the next game tells us what happened and what didn't anyway. The series has always been like that.

    Arguing back and forth what's deemed official and canon is well and fine but some of this debate has gone a little too far with regards to a faq that so many people easily dismiss in the first place. People are going to take what's in the games and make of them what they will.

    LOL all of our hard work and people still say Righ-You. Chris Hardwick even says Righ-You on the Wreck-It-Ralph DVD and he's a self proclaimed nerd, YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER! x_X That's why I stay out of a lot of these types of discussions. The faq will never reach all of the people we want it to. You can write Poison is 1,000% female in there and that debate will still continue for years and years.

    Post edited by Sano on
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    Wow I didn't realize you actually did take down the guide. Look, if you want to make unavailable whatever changes you've made, that's fine, that's your material and your right to do with as you wish. But a lot of that guide is the content of others, so I'm going to include here a version I have saved (I'm not sure it's the most recent one, but I just want to make sure everything isn't lost)

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8EFYcEZMa4dNmxvMTNjZ0dEQVU/edit?usp=sharing
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 980
    That's the latest version, indeed. Version .5.ae

    I have it in html format in case someone wants it.
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    here's a comment about Sakura from Tomoaki Ayano the current producer of Street Fighter

    "It’s often said that you become proficient at that which you love. And Sakura loves street fighting from the bottom of her heart. Add to that some great reflexes, as well as the ability to copy the Hadoken just by watching it, and it’s safe to say that Sakura is a fighting prodigy. A genius, even. That’s why she’s able to fight everyone so well!"

    a Japanese player was asking how Sakura could go toe to toe with martial arts masters and above is Ayano's reply to that.

    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 12,969 mod
    MuKen wrote: »
    Wow I didn't realize you actually did take down the guide. Look, if you want to make unavailable whatever changes you've made, that's fine, that's your material and your right to do with as you wish. But a lot of that guide is the content of others, so I'm going to include here a version I have saved (I'm not sure it's the most recent one, but I just want to make sure everything isn't lost)

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8EFYcEZMa4dNmxvMTNjZ0dEQVU/edit?usp=sharing

    Thanks. Turns out I did have that copy saved, just had to find it. The first word in my doc was 'Gamefaqs' and I was looking for 'Street Fighter' or 'Plot Guide' lol!

    Anyone want a copy feel free to E-mail me at colladoa@sullcrom.com - It's my work E-mail address so if you ask me on Saturday or Sunday just wait a bit.

    For anyone who cares I have no idea what any of these developments mean for the CFE quote faq but I normally wouldn't update for a few months anyway. Around then if Vas isn't back I'll email him, and if he's out it's done. Glad we got Ingrid's quotes in there at least.
  • AbhiAbhi Best Team EVER Joined: Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    wow a lot of writing in that saved box makes it unreadable
    I'm like an Hadoken

    I'm like Down Right Fierce
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    edited August 2013
    LOL. What do you know? He says he wants to make amends, but would rather run off instead of cleaning up the huge mess he made. Yeah, that's real humility there, Vas.

    What's frustrating is this guy actually had some things going for him, mainly that Ono was wrong about things pertaining to every game released prior to SF4. I refuse to believe that all the games are set in their own universes when they clearly still reference each other, or that the ages of all the "teenage" characters are frozen when Ryu's clearly isn't. What's the fucking point of giving him red hair and a slimmer build in Alpha if he wasn't meant to be younger in that series? This "word of god" shit can only be stretched so far. And the fact Ono lied about the polling results for SF4 on consoles was enough to just make me hate him.

    But my blogtv experience was almost completely ruined because Vasili made a liar out of me. I'm still a fan of Omar Dogan's work and continue to get commissions from him when the opportunity is there. The thing is, he has a tendency to act like he knows everything, and at times he can be a pompous asshole. I defended the plot guide and said to just look for the old Capcom publications for evidence, and Omar threw it back in my face. Now I can't blame him anymore. I told him and Jim Zubkavich things under some predisposition that everything that came directly from Ono was bullshit, when in fact it was mostly Vasili wanting to dismiss everything that came from UDON or Capcom USA with no validation. Even after Sven came out and said Capcom had no localization office anywhere outside Japan, he still wanted to blame every inconsistency he perceived on someone else.

    I didn't care for the whole Gouken and Gen issue. The fact Gouken came back at all was ridiculous as is, so I thought the zombie thing might have been a joke Capcom made up to make him playable, sort of like Yun traveling back in time for Alpha 3. But while Vasili believed he had all the answers, his behavior towards others indicated the exact opposite. Sure, YagamiFire did come off as a fucking troll, but telling a bunch of random people on Unity they're wrong just because? Taking the consistency between that and his incredibly senseless rationale behind the zombies, "Charlie Nash" not being official, and the developers referring to Poison as a "he" despite recent interviews, you begin to sense he's not being responsible with his work. He's only in it for the bells and whistles.

    It really is pathetic that it took all this pointless shit slinging to prompt ME to get someone with real Japanese knowledge to correct him. It's a shame Saiki left. If he'd hung around long enough, Tiamat wouldn't have been duped into giving the guide up.
    Post edited by Kataklysmic on
    " Scrubs keep our community alive, not top players, everyone (even myself at times) seem to forget that."
    - Arturo Sanchez, aka Sabin
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 12,969 mod
    For what it's worth I've emailed both Tiamat and Saiki about what just happened. Now I haven't maintained regular email conversations with either of them in years and even when I did, neither are the quickest to respond. Just felt they should know. Not even sure they still use their old email addresses but worth a shot.

    I speak to vasili10 with emails and PMs fairly regularly but right now it's probably to soon to get in contact with him. A cooling off period might be best.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    Sano wrote: »
    For what it's worth I've emailed both Tiamat and Saiki about what just happened. Now I haven't maintained regular email conversations with either of them in years and even when I did, neither are the quickest to respond. Just felt they should know. Not even sure they still use their old email addresses but worth a shot.

    I speak to vasili10 with emails and PMs fairly regularly but right now it's probably to soon to get in contact with him. A cooling off period might be best.

    You're a wise man, Sano.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    Forgive me Kataklysmic, I don't mean to single you out, I am addressing the community at large, and merely replying to you because you are speaking now.
    It really is pathetic that it took all this pointless shit slinging to prompt ME to get someone with real Japanese knowledge to correct him.

    This right here, to me, best sums up the root problem behind this entire situation. This idea that it is so ridiculous for you the bystanders to have had to take action. Anybody that ever disagreed with Vas on anything always had the peanut gallery ignoring everything they said and backing Vas and the guide for no reason other than it was the guide.

    All any dissenter ever wanted was for you guys to look at the evidence being presented. And if you're going to comment, take an objective look at the evidence first, maybe even do a little research of your own, instead of just tossing in your support for whoever you want to fanboy. But for the most part, nobody did, they just supported Vas blindly. And look what happened the very second you did take action: this debate got resolved. You're so angry you had to do that, think how it feels for the people that only ever wanted for people like you to do that.

    Here is the root problem: the guide NEVER should have been a voice of authority. Rather, the guide should be a resource to organize and speak the knowledge of the community, NOT the other way around. I can't even blame Vas that much for getting an inflated sense of authority when every random audience member to these debates just says "Vas is right because he's Vas and he's in charge of the guide."
    Sure, YagamiFire did come off as a fucking troll, but telling a bunch of random people on Unity they're wrong just because?

    I think if you look back now, with your eyes opened by this situation, you will see that was never the case. He only came off as a troll to people who thought that ANYBODY that persistently argues against something in the guide must be a troll because the guide is beyond dispute.

    If you look back at the debate we were just having, all Yagami did was quote official statement after official statement, and ask people to just LOOK at what he's saying instead of dismissing it out of hand. Which nobody did. If you look back at most of the prior debates he had with Vas, you will see more of the same.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    I do apologize if that's how I come off...and if people go back in history to when I started posting here I think you'll find I was very polite and tried to be as friendly as possible...but the situation become increasingly frustrating to be told I'm wrong time and time again even after working hard on my own translations for comparison. Worse than that, the real frustration was the unwillingness to even be heard in the face of the "sacred text" of the plot guide and the holy word of Vas.

    I came here to be able to chat, discuss and debate about the Street Fighter canon. I love Street Fighter and have since I was really young...and here-abouts is basically the first time I've found folks with the same level of interest other than like one of my friends. So yeah was I insistent? Yup but only because I am passionate about this stuff...I really like it. My typical response when rebuked is to come back twice as hard, 1% as nice and loaded to bare with hard facts and data. I'm stubborn...it's how I am. Again, I'm only stubborn about stuff I feel strongly about though...and with how much I like Street Fighter...well the effect is magnified.

    So...am I glad things came about like this? Hell no. I'd have preferred that we all just discussed, compared notes and came to conclusions based on the data. It is what it is though...and we are where we are. Guess the ends justified the means in this case. Best thing I can hope for is that it can all get spun positively and lead to a resurgence of the plot guide especially since we all have an opportunity to review it, revise it and re-premiere it. That's at least a positive, exciting thought.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    That's not true. I didn't just blindly follow Vasili. There were plenty of things in the guide that I didn't agree on, like the whole tiering list he had down at the bottom. I felt that he had a bias towards certain characters, and made others out to be far more proficient at fighting than what the games show. I raised the issue here a few times, but it got nowhere so I didn't bother pressing my arguments any further. If Vasili was in control, he wouldn't change anything no matter how deep your reasoning could get. And it didn't bother me in the long run because that section was meant to be entirely subjective since it was first put together.

    I got sick of Yagami because on some occasions when there was a discussion moving, he would just drop in unexpectedly and type up posts that could fill a whole fucking book, just to try to debunk the Gouken and Gen crap again. This is material that was supposedly mistranslated, so if you're going to do anything to disprove what's in the guide, you need something a lot more substantial, like actual TRANSLATIONS from a proven Japanese speaker. Not lectures on how martial arts principles work. I don't care how inaccurate Vasili made Gouken's abilities seem in relation to what Mu really is. SF is a work of fiction. It's not uncommon for fiction writers to get things in the real world totally wrong. And SF got plenty of things wrong, like the USSR still existing in the early 90s, or Guile, a soldier in the Air Force, wearing colors that don't represent his own branch of the military.

    This is a problem with other IPs too. Spider-Man got his powers from getting bit by a radioactive spider. If such an event were to happen in reality, he wouldn't have become superhuman, he'd be a contaminated corpse. That fact does not make his origin any less official to Marvel. They may have changed that in newer series like Ultimate Spider-Man and so on, but you can't argue against what's already in print for the original continuity any more than you can argue against somebody who knows Japanese and not you.

    I have not defended Vasili's claims on Gouken and Gen as legit. His reasoning was stupid, but in spite of that, I took it as a possibility. Because with Ingrid and Yun in Alpha 3 MAX, it would not be the first time Capcom did something so ridiculous to make a character playable. It wasn't until the arguments about Charlie and Poison came up that I got suspicious. Vasili was adamantly defending Japanese sources, while at the same ignoring/talking down on things said by the developers (not Ono, but the artists and writers themselves) simply on the basis of them being printed in Western material. I PMed him about it, and after he gave me his usual "I only provide what's been provided to me" catchphrase, I felt it necessary to get Azrael.

    Now keep in mind that Tiamat gave Vasili the plot guide because of his initial collaborations with Saiki. At most, I thought only the entries on the Gouken/Gen story would prove false. Never did I imagine that almost every translation he made in the Appendices thread would turn up wrong. If his work could get shot down that easily, how the hell did he get to take over the guide in the first place?

    I've always looked at everything objectively. I just didn't see a reason to do anything about it until now. Yes, I got annoyed by all the challenging arguments, but that's only because I didn't like the way it was done. Not because I'm some fucking fanboy who takes everything in the plot guide as gospel.
    " Scrubs keep our community alive, not top players, everyone (even myself at times) seem to forget that."
    - Arturo Sanchez, aka Sabin
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    Fair enough then, and I apologize for targetting what I said towards your remarks in that case.

    I simply hope that looking forward, others will keep what's happened today in mind and remember that to place priority on the 'authority' of a guide or the person who maintains it is folly. The guide is there to summarize what we know, and the authority comes from our citations and translations, not from the guide itself.
  • DarthEnderDarthEnder Dragon Force Kin Joined: Posts: 2,124
    Well! This last page has been an interesting read.

    If Vas really is done I hope someone else(or maybe a few someone elses) takes up the mantle.
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 980
    Sano wrote: »
    In my head Gen's still dead because he NEVER had to save Chun-Li man fuck him. :P

    Jokes aside, that's one reason to suspect that Gen is in fact dead: his ending doesn't exactly fit with Chun's, as if the whole thing of saving her was a delusion on his dead mind, like in The Sixth Sense or something like that. Couple that with the scene where Gouken is watching Ryu and Ken from a cliff and... But of course this is just mass guessing.
    Sagatryu wrote: »
    here's a comment about Sakura from Tomoaki Ayano the current producer of Street Fighter

    "It’s often said that you become proficient at that which you love. And Sakura loves street fighting from the bottom of her heart. Add to that some great reflexes, as well as the ability to copy the Hadoken just by watching it, and it’s safe to say that Sakura is a fighting prodigy. A genius, even. That’s why she’s able to fight everyone so well!"

    a Japanese player was asking how Sakura could go toe to toe with martial arts masters and above is Ayano's reply to that.

    I actually made a poke to this in the previous page. I gon't recall how to link to individual posts, but you may go to page 342 and Ctrl+F for "prodigy". :-P
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    This is material that was supposedly mistranslated, so if you're going to do anything to disprove what's in the guide, you need something a lot more substantial, like actual TRANSLATIONS from a proven Japanese speaker.

    To be fair, I challenged the translations on that, along with other material, several times. I even provided translations that were more accurate...and cited several of the English translations for accuracy. Vas was just given automatic benefit of the doubt as being more accurate in his translations...even though he was not a proven Japanese translator...people just assumed he was. Heck, people could have babelfish'd some of the translations and seen Vas was changing stuff in them. That's what I was attempting to do regarding Poison as well and was working on posting up the images from AAC (which I own). I had to prepare to do stuff like that because of being given no credence on claims.

    It makes sense though. People were familiar with Vas...so took his translations are genuine. People weren't familiar with me...so dismissed my translations. Unfortunately, I was not aware of a recognized Japanese speaker on SRK I could go to or cite and, without any credibility, I can't just cite a friend (if my buddy Dave was free to help me for instance) without that also being dismissed. Catch-22. You gotta know somebody for people to trust somebody.

    To answer what was mentioned...

    I am willing to work with people to update the plot guide.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • PsychobluePsychoblue the Conductor of the Hype Train Joined: Posts: 2,247
    What is this skulduggery!? Zangief is straight? Gouken was believed to be an SIN clone? Poison was originally a woman after all?

    Dear lord, I turn away from this thread for a couple of days and suddenly the guide disappears. Stupid job hunt keeping me from participating as much as I'd like...and just when I was getting the RCL doujin people really into the plot guide!

    In all seriousness though, I haven't looked at the plot guide thoroughly since pre-SFIV era, since SFIV onwards gave us the elusive character-specific win quotes that were originally only in Japan. I also think that having the Nakahira mangas translated in English by a reputable company to be distributed widespread to English speakers also gave us access to materials that the original writers might have loosely translated back when the comics were much harder to find. While there are a bunch of things that happened in the Nakahira manga that would have made what happened in SFA3 impossible (like the epic Ryu v Bison battle where he debuts the Shin Shoryuken), at the same time it feels like a lot of those stories are being used as reference material for more recent SF works.

    When SFIV came out, the plot guide became outdated in several points, especially when that SFIV anime prologue came out that documented Bison's defeat at the end of SFII, where instead of Akuma SGSing him, it was a gang of Street Fighters ambushing him before Shadaloo's base detonated (yet in SFxT, Akuma talks to him like he actually DID give him the SGS yet Bison revived anyway. I don't suppose Bison has access to that Mu power right?!) I also remember the plot guide at some points using character specific win quotes from CVS2 to further talk about character relationships and prior meetings. Wouldn't it be fair to use SFxT (strictly involving the SF cast of course) for similar hints of encounters?
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 12,969 mod
    I'm still not entirely sure if that wasn't an instance where Capcom was playing nice with people who played NxC, where they actually show you Gouki SGS Dictator. There's actually very little in SFxt that contradicts NxC.

    Then of course PxZ comes out, a sequel to NxC and completely ignores SFxT.

    So really not sure what any of that means. The anime prologues (not the in-game ones) have contradictions in almost any theory that doesn't involve 'each game belongs in it's own universe.' Mainly Chun-Li's and Sakura's prologues.

    Moving forward, the plot guide should at best present both scenarios until there's an official confirmation which one really happened.

    Really happened lol neither one really happened it's just a video game! Sorry I still can't believe vasili10 did what he did. All things considered I hope he's okay, emotionally and otherwise.
  • PsychobluePsychoblue the Conductor of the Hype Train Joined: Posts: 2,247
    Sano wrote: »
    I'm still not entirely sure if that wasn't an instance where Capcom was playing nice with people who played NxC, where they actually show you Gouki SGS Dictator. There's actually very little in SFxt that contradicts NxC.

    They also talk about Akuma SGSing Bison in SVC Chaos as well, which is from 2003.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    Seeing as Bison is still alive through everything that has happened, is there anything to say they didn't both happen at different times?
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    right a second wasn't it Tiamat who start whole power tier list for the characters cause i'm sure that was in the first version of the guide?

    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    It was, but Vasilis has added a lot of changes to that tiering since then. My first major disagreement with him was over him stating that Oni was weaker than Gouki. Not so much that he had that opinion, but rather that in this thread at least, he was treating it more or less as fact.
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 12,969 mod
    Saiki's version of the tier guide was first. Tiamat revised it. Vasili10 re-revised it, ignoring aspects of Final Fight Streetwise while Tiamat didn't. A move everyone was fine with ROFL!

    I'm all for removing the tier listing from the guide entirely. I've disagreed with aspects of it in the past and so have others.

    No offense but who is stronger Shin Gouki or Oni, is that REALLY a topic worth discussing?" This version of the character that doesn't exist officially is stonger than this version of the character that doesn't exist officially." O'RLY??? x_X

    Stuff like that is the sole reason why the tier list should be gone. Take the information from the guide and the games and draw your own conclusions.

    It's the same thing us comic book fans have been doing since Superman put on a cape. Figuring out who is stronger than who by ourselves. And then you can go cry when some idiot at Capcom decides to have Dan defeat Gill, just like when Marvel had Silver Surfer lose to Carnage. WE ARE NOT HERE TO DRY YOUR TEARS! :P
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    ^ That was essentially my point at the time. We have next to zero information about Oni's strength, why are we making bold statements like that it's been "cemented" that he's weaker than Gouki? We should be shutting up until such time as more information is given, if ever. But anyway, past is past.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    I am in agreement that the tier list is less than useless.

    Honestly, with the whole Dictator v Gouki thing...isn't entirely plausible that the references to the SGS to Dic by Gouki in the numerous cross-over games is a tongue-in-cheek reference not to a canon event but rather a self-referential thing regarding Gouki's first appearance? It never seems to be discussed in canon games either in descriptions or between Dic and Gouki themselves. It just keeps popping up in non-canon cross-overs almost like an in-joke.

    The best, recent, source I can find regarding all of this is in the design work for Street Fighter 4. The "damaged clothes" alternate for Dictator is accompanied by the artist note that this depicts him after "his battle with" Gouki. However, it also makes a note to point out that though his clothes are damaged and his skin is discolored, he is not harmed...he does not register "wounds, damage, or pain". So...even if they did fight (which this design note does indicate) it seems pretty clear that Bison wasn't hurt in the scuffle. It goes on further with Ikeno mentioning that it was specifically designed to show Bison after being "beat up" by Akuma/Gouki in SSFIIX. I think the important thing with that though is that SSFIIX is not a "canon" event...it is a specific game reference. So, it could very well just be an easter egg/reference like soooo (too!) many other costumes in the game.

    With nothing else to support it shown in-game at all and with Gouki & Dictator's quotes to one another, it really seems like these references all point to the event as a game event not as a narrative event in the canon.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

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  • ShockdingoShockdingo Freelance voice actor & Reploid.PHD in Q speculation. Joined: Posts: 1,438
    Akuma/Gouki/Mr. Smiley has been a source of confusion for me for some time. I still don't know what exactly the SGS does, I don't know if he and Bison ever fought, or if he actually toasted Mr. Tuesday into power for Ryu to find.
    "Bison drinks DELICIOUS expired milk on tuesdays while driving trucks into wandering fighters." - m121akuma

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  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    Shockdingo wrote: »
    Akuma/Gouki/Mr. Smiley has been a source of confusion for me for some time. I still don't know what exactly the SGS does, I don't know if he and Bison ever fought, or if he actually toasted Mr. Tuesday into power for Ryu to find.

    I did a pretty big breakdown on the sgs here...

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/147136/a-more-complete-explaination-of-the-shun-goku-satsu
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

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  • True TatsuTrue Tatsu Senpuu or Seppuku Joined: Posts: 1,654
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    Shockdingo wrote: »
    Akuma/Gouki/Mr. Smiley has been a source of confusion for me for some time. I still don't know what exactly the SGS does, I don't know if he and Bison ever fought, or if he actually toasted Mr. Tuesday into power for Ryu to find.

    I did a pretty big breakdown on the sgs here...

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/147136/a-more-complete-explaination-of-the-shun-goku-satsu
    I may just join that disco in the other thread. I have atleast one good ramble in me.
    p.s. pretty good beakdown.
    :sad: tier bending :bluu: the saltiest of techniques :shake:
  • ShockdingoShockdingo Freelance voice actor & Reploid.PHD in Q speculation. Joined: Posts: 1,438
    Wow dude, I just gave that a read, nice job on researching and theorizing. I admit I greatly prefer that idea rather than the demons to hell idea. The biggest issue aside from Akuma depending on others to do his dirty work, is that how would you invent or practice such a technique? I know anime combat is full of mystical stuff, but that's too much for me and always was something I couldn't swallow. Martial artists making a technique that tears open the fabric of reality to drag you down to hell is a bit too much, and not even mages, wizards or sorcerers, but martial artists. Summoning the critters would be one thing, but to freely do that gives a character simply too much power in my opinion.
    "Bison drinks DELICIOUS expired milk on tuesdays while driving trucks into wandering fighters." - m121akuma

    Warrior's Fate: The identity of Street Fighter's Q. Now in video!

    No more Skullo? How I'd bring tokusatsu back to SF.

    My StreetFighter voice acting reel
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    Thank you, Shockdingo.

    It took me a while to find all the info on it...but it's a labor of love. Gave me an excuse to re-read some martial arts lore and manga...which I already love. The "drags to hell" thing always bugged me because it seemed so out of character for Akuma/Gouki. It just doesn't make sense. Why would the greatest martial artist in the world have a technique that has nothing to do with martial arts and, in fact, eliminates the "one vs one" dynamic of a fight by making it "guy vs group of demons". That's just lame. A thousand punches in a moment though? Awesome. Pure awesome.

    The nice thing is that it also makes everything about the martial arts lore of Mu and Mu No Ken jive with the Shun Goku Satsu. It makes everything make sense.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

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  • True TatsuTrue Tatsu Senpuu or Seppuku Joined: Posts: 1,654
    @YagamiFire

    Might I suggest a TL:DR version be placed in your 3rd post and mentioned in the 1st? While I find the current form as an enjoyable read, it could help further interest and discussion to have a more streamlined or minimalist summary as well.

    ??? did I click disagree? my bad yagami
    :sad: tier bending :bluu: the saltiest of techniques :shake:
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    True Tatsu wrote: »
    @YagamiFire

    Might I suggest a TL:DR version be placed in your 3rd post and mentioned in the 1st? While I find the current form as an enjoyable read, it could help further interest and discussion to have a more streamlined or minimalist summary as well.

    ??? did I click disagree? my bad yagami

    Not a problem. Posting it up right now.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,741
    In regards to the plot guide...

    Before the incident with Vas, MuKen and I were already working on compiling a list of contested plot guide elements to create a revised document. Now with the captaining of the plot guide vacated...well...I think it should become something of a community project to update the plot guide and eliminate the stuff it seems Vas was mis-representing. I'd also say we can do a nice clean-up on the guide and maybe get some community excitement going with a new, updated version.

    These are the points of contention we came up with:

    Charlie Nash’s name?

    Is Gouki stronger than Oni?

    Is the SGS a physical attack, or does it teleport you to hell?

    How does Mu defend against the SGS? (possibly merge with the above)

    How many times did Gouki and Goutetsu fight?

    Should Poison be referred to as ‘she’?

    Did Gouki know who he was SGS’ing in his SF4 ending?


    In addition to resolving those things to the best of our reasonable ability, I would also suggest improving the translations of a lot of the phrasing/etc in the plot guide to make it more readable/intelligible in a few places.

    I think it's best to approach the stewardship of the guide with some kind of like...council format. Instead of just having one person with yay/nay rights on the guide, we should recognize that there are quite a few of us that have a good range and depth of knowledge about SF. Let's use that broader knowledge base to our advantage so we avoid the pitfalls of only one persons voice directing the guide which should keep us from running into the same situation that lead to the implosion of the last couple days. The plot guide is supposed to be for the SF community, so it makes sense that those members of the community most interested would be those assisting with it. Team effort instead of an individual effort.

    With USF4 coming out, interest will rev up again for Street Fighter and it'd be nice to have a new, improved plot guide out there. We'd probably be killing a lot of sacred cows and reversing some stuff that has been believed for a long time but...hey, the times they are a-changing. Controversy breeds interest...so I say let's make some hamburgers outta those cows for the sake of accuracy.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 980
    edited August 2013
    Does SF still use a rigid timeline? Is SF4 set in the year 199whatever?
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 980
    edited August 2013
    *Double post* -_-

  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    I think it's best to approach the stewardship of the guide with some kind of like...council format. Instead of just having one person with yay/nay rights on the guide, we should recognize that there are quite a few of us that have a good range and depth of knowledge about SF.

    I think that is best. Ideally we'd use a repository and changelist review system (like what software engineers do), but I suppose we can't expect all the forumers to set that stuff up.

    I think what we should do instead is set up a new thread, with the guide linked in the first post. Anybody can make changes and link an updated guide "for review", and then the others should read it over and if they agree with the changes post something like "looks good to me", "lgtm", "+1" or whatever, or point out what they think is wrong with the changes. Only once we come to a decent consensus should the version in the first post be updated. People should at least get some diff program that shows them easily what has been changed in new versions so they can make informed comments.

    If someone else wants to make changes, they should wait until the ones currently under review are either put in, or denied. Then make apply their changes to the updated version and put them up for review next. In the interest of conciseness, people can instead just link a single section they are making changes to.

    Obviously, we still need a single steward to make the thread and update the first post. But the steward should understand that their role is not an authority figure like Vas tried to be, but more like a secretary, just making updates whenever the forum seems to be at a consensus. Obviously they will need to have some discretionary power in deciding what a consensus is, but at least they should not treat their own voice as more important than those of others.

    I'd personally be ok with Yagami taking over, but it's up to you guys, this is something we should decide with a consensus right here and now.
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    edited August 2013
    mikros wrote: »
    Does SF still use a rigid timeline? Is SF4 set in the year 199whatever?

    The games clearly still suggest that. I don't give a fuck what Ono says.

    - Ryu still scarred Sagat.
    - Ryu doesn't have red hair anymore.
    - The Mad Gear still collapsed.
    - Former Mad Gear members are still carrying out their plans.
    - Cody still went to jail.
    - Charlie still died.
    - Sakura still met Ryu.
    - Sagat no longer hates Ryu.
    - Bison still possessed Rose.
    - Rose still met Guy.
    - Cammy was still a Doll.
    - Cammy is still connected to the other Dolls.
    - Juri is aware that Cammy was a Doll.
    - Vega is still infatuated with Cammy.
    - Bison still held a tournament and got beaten.
    - Dan's pissed at Blanka for not inviting him to said tournament.
    - Ibuki's graduation in 3S is consistent with her being in SF4.
    - Makoto is still repairing her dojo in SF4.
    - Dudley in SF4 is still looking for his car.
    - Necro and Twelve haven't been created until SF3.
    - Urien is still intrigued by Chun-Li's part in bringing down Shadaloo.
    - Sean still thinks he's better than Dan.

    With all these references in place, nobody can tell me the games are all in separate universes.

    MuKen wrote: »

    I'd personally be ok with Yagami taking over, but it's up to you guys, this is something we should decide with a consensus right here and now.

    Sano still has the guide. Let him do it. Either that, or he can give it back to Tiamat. It'll be easier to change things to how they were before Vasili took over.

    If Azrael's willing, maybe he can help out with fixing the translations. At least all the ones from the games anyway. Doubt he has AAC or any of the other books.
    Post edited by Kataklysmic on
    " Scrubs keep our community alive, not top players, everyone (even myself at times) seem to forget that."
    - Arturo Sanchez, aka Sabin
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 12,969 mod
    edited August 2013
    I have a copy but I'd still like to give Tiamat or Saiki time to respond.

    I'm not sure I even could re-submit it without the approval of Tiamat. At least not on Gamefaqs. Tiamat officially passed it to Vas. Fairly certain something like that has to happen for Gamefaqs to allow its return.

    When I get a chance I'd like to contact Gamefaqs and discuss possibilities. Although they take longer to get back to you than Saiki would.

    I had a thought about keeping a forum version here at SRK. Each character would have their own post and we could edit as we go. Events that took place in games and so forth could have their own posts too. The problem with Gamefaqs is you constantly have to overhaul it, someone has to approve it. Time consuming.

    Still I would really like to hear from Tiamat or Saiki. If anyone still stays in touch with them on some forum or other please reach out.

    In the meantime keep discussing and entertaining ideas on how the plot guide should move forward. I would like to be involved in its ressurection in some capacity.
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