Warriors Fate: Street Fighter story thread, revived

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  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 1,020
    vasili10 wrote: »
    Nicknames don't go on dogtags, thus if instead the inscription was "Carlos Nash," that would be a different story canon-wise.

    Interpol has no field agents. Let's invalidate Chun Li's story.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    But, it really comes down to how the characters refer to themselves in-universe...a detail we never really knew until now. I suppose vasili is waiting for USF4, because that would be the first truly canon instance when we get to hear from Poison herself.

    The plot guide references as evidence her most recent bio:

    "Poison grew up in a Los Angeles orphanage. Even though Poison is a guy he chooses to wear women's clothing. He, err, she even feels that fighting is the best way to stay in shape and maintain her looks."

    They describe Poison with "he" when talking as a third party, but when discussing what POISON thinks about fighting and fitness, they use "she" and "her", indicating that in her own mind she refers to herself as female.

    Tbh, the whole Poison section reads as really insensitive. From repeatedly using quotations when it does refer to her with female pronouns, to implying it'll be ok to use female pronouns only if and when she gets the operation, to commenting on when it is and is not ok for the masses to drool over her (why is that even necessary to mention in a guide to sf canon?)
    Post edited by MuKen on
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    edited August 2013
    vasili10 wrote: »
    In printed statement format, CJ regards the name "Charlie" as only a nickname for Carlos when referring to Guile's friend overseas, and this understanding has long predated the "Carlos Blanka" mess from the SF live action movie. Because of this and because there's presently no other support from CJ affirming that "Charlie" is considered Guile's friend's first name, "Charlie Nash" as graphically shown in SF4 is considered a one-time Easter egg appearance and a liberty taken by the third-party animation studio. Nicknames don't go on dogtags, thus if instead the inscription was "Carlos Nash," that would be a different story canon-wise.

    See this is what makes this so easy. Not only to debunk but to illustrate bias.

    There are several ways to look at this. When evaluating information, keep in mind that it is best to utilize Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

    So, we have Charlie being called "Carlos" by CJ with Charlie being a nickname. This occurred in the past when a separation between the releases of games in Japan and the US was still...well...a thing.

    So we have that it is considered a "one-time" Easter egg. Considered by who? No one but Vasili. Let's fairly display the image.



    Visible at 28 seconds.

    Now, keep in mind that this "Easter Egg" fills the entire screen and is clearly visible to the viewer. This is not an "in joke" or a "background reference"

    What is an "Easter egg"?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg_(media)

    A reading reveals that the most common motif among Easter eggs is that they are hidden. Well...the name on the dog tag is clearly not hidden. It is made obvious to the viewer. It is purposeful information revealed through the video. The viewer is meant to know that these are the dog tags of Charlie Nash. No questions asked.

    Now, again...Occam's Razor. We are presented with clear information. Do we take the information...or create the assumption that it is an Easter Egg and therefore the information may not be genuine. Well, that is another layer of assumption...Occam's Razor says we discard that extra assumption for the simpler explanation.

    Additionally, no other "support" is required to consider "Charlie" as Guile's friends first name since we are being presented something in a new canon source. New canon overrides all canon. This is how canon works (seriously I can't believe I have to explain some of this stuff...but whatever). Something new can & may override something old. If it adds to it this becomes newly revealed information...if it contradicts it it is either a mistake or a retcon. It is safe to assume this is not a mistake as the number of eyes and approval this image would have had to go through would have been extensive. Also, again, it requires an additional layer of assumption where we have to assume that it is a mistake instead of taking the information as presented. That's a no-no.

    The post also concludes that this is a liberty taken by a third-party animation studio. Uh. What? Why would we assume that? Because the animation studio would think it was fun? Uh no. We don't even know if the studio knows ANYTHING about Street Fighter other than what they're told (this is the default status of most contract work, by the way). In addition, it ignores the basis of how things like this work. I've worked in the video game industry...this is NOT the reality of it. Companies are not "hands off" with their million dollar franchises and when they contract work out they are usually very specific about what gets put in. There is every reason to believe that Capcom would have, logically, requested and outlined what was to be put in the animation...including the dog tags. A game by Capcom, with an image approved by Capcom...so we now make an assumption that something in it is coming from an outside source? Assumption. No-no. Keep it simple. It is from Capcom. Period.

    What does this lead us to?

    The dog tags were put in there by Capcom. They represent information given to the viewer. This information is that Guile's friends name is "Charlie Nash". This contradicts NOTHING in the western canon of SF as Charlie has never been given a last name. Nor does it contradict anything presented in-game (What 99.99% of people are familiar with in Japan) in the Japanese games since Nash is not given a first/last name in those games. The only contradiction we have is very old, obscure material calling Nash "Carlos" in regards to overseas works. Simplest assumption? This is overriding that information. This is a simple assumption considering that it is being presented in A) something newer and B) something much much more prominent. This is the equivalent of something being presented in one of the Star Wars prequels that, though a minor element, contradicts something stated in a secondary Star Wars source (outside the movies) previously. Guess what wins? Yeah the brand new movie presented to a huge audience. Of course.

    The only other assumption that might be reasonable (and a way to reconcile both) is that "Carlos" is his name but either A) the dog tags say his nickname because that is how things work in Street Fighter world and nicknames are okay on dog tags or B) Charlie changed his legal name at some point when entering the army. A is obviously probably more reasonable but both still require a layer of assumption removed from simple reconciliation of "Old Canon Info" vs "Newly Shown Canon Info" where the outcome is simple that new overrides old. Either way it still means his full name is Carlos "Charlie" Nash...or just Charlie Nash. Not "Charlie" one place and "Nash" in another. This also reconciles the reality that games are being released simultaneously in the world now...or at least very close to it and the community is far more global in general thanks to the internet and communications. Companies are consolidating their lore/info. Fact. So, based on that, is it more or less reasonable that Capcom would consolidate "Charlie" and "Nash" into "Charlie Nash" for simplicities sake? Half a brain tells us "It is more reasonable that they would do that than go through an elaborate, pointless Easter Egg process".

    Of course, Vas personally doesn't want Nash to be named Charlie Nash...and he presents information to support that as being "right". In an honest discussion, the person with an emotional investment in something that is supposed to be a search for fair, unbiased information would probably just excuse themselves because they'd be researching under a bias...which is not good for seeking real answers. I am reminded of the saying "You know your god is made-up when he just so happens to hate all the same people you do". Bias doesn't seek truth...it seeks reinforcement of it's own bias.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited August 2013
    Hasn't it only been pretty recently that we've truly known what Poison herself identified as? (more specifically, with the release of SFxT?)
    Prior to SFxT (which was when the majority of the plot guide was written) we never really heard FROM Poison, correct?

    I know we had Ono's somewhat confusing EGM quote about region dependent physiology and decades of other contradictory materials...

    But, it really comes down to how the characters refer to themselves in-universe...a detail we never really knew until now. I suppose vasili is waiting for USF4, because that would be the first truly canon instance when we get to hear from Poison herself.

    However, if SFxT is any indication, Poison will probably refer to herself as female in USF4...at which point, as vasili himself implied, the issue will probably be addressed in the guide...

    EDIT: Also...maybe I knew this and just forgot...but, it seems that CvS2 has team specific win quotes. Like when Ryu and Sagat are on the same team, they talk to each other. (@5:18 ) Are there other teams that do this?

    Pretty much.

    Yes, other teams have specific win quotes as well.
    mikros wrote: »
    vasili10 wrote: »
    Nicknames don't go on dogtags, thus if instead the inscription was "Carlos Nash," that would be a different story canon-wise.

    Interpol has no field agents. Let's invalidate Chun Li's story.

    Chun-Li is not considered a field agent, but an investigator or a detective.

    Post edited by vasili10 on
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    vasili10 wrote: »
    Pretty much.

    So, not planning to address the comment regarding her FF:CCC bio?
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    MuKen wrote: »
    vasili10 wrote: »
    Pretty much.

    So, not planning to address the comment regarding her FF:CCC bio?

    There's also the matter of the interviews with Ono (Mr. Word-Of-God himself)

    "Capcom's official stance has and will continue to be that we don't have a stance technically. It's supposed to be mysterious; if people want to talk about it on forums or what not they're welcome to, but we're not going to give you a straight answer because, well, there isn't one. We deliberately want to make it a mysterious thing-that question of what's at the core of this character. At the end of the day, we don't have an actual canonical answer to that.

    It's interesting, because it almost takes on a sort of Rorschach test. If you go into it with the pre-conceived notion that she's a woman, the way she talks, the way she moves, you'll see all of that as being very feminine. If you go in with the pre-conceived notion that she's not, her actions and mannerisms will seem the other way to you. So, it's very open-ended.

    From my point of view, I'm very happy to have fans continue to discuss that, but once again we're not going to give an official answer. We're happy to leave that open and up to individual fans.
    "

    and furthermore...

    "In North America, Poison is officially a post-op transsexual" - "in Japan, she simply tucks her business away in order to look like a girl."

    In both interviews, Mr. Ono, the highest authority in recent Street Fighter, refers to Poison as a "she". Every. Single. Time.

    And still furthermore...

    "In talking to members of the trans community who have an investment or general interest in the character of Poison, one major concern I’ve heard has come from some of the videos shown for Street Fighter X Tekken in regards to win quotes. For example, in one video that was shown, both Ryu and Chun-Li made statements toward Poison regarding her not being a “real” woman in one way or another.

    Capcom rep: Can I jump in really quick on this one? Those win quotes came from an earlier point in the game’s development, and while we haven’t publicized it too much, we’re actually working very closely with GLAAD. We’re very sensitive as far as not wanting to alienate anybody as Ono-san said, so we’re trying to be careful in that regard. It’s been an education process for us, but we do want people to know that we’re now working with GLAAD to make sure that anything that might be offensive has been very tailored to not be.
    "

    So...win quotes eliminated from SFxT because they were offensive since they including referring to Poison as "not being a "real" woman". So...Capcom IS being sensitive to the subject and is aware of it...hence constantly referring to her as her.

    So...yeah.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • FirestreakRodimusFirestreakRodimus Joined: Posts: 94
    Yagami, I'm going guess that using the Razor method you're both right and wrong on the Charlie Nash issue. I'm fairly certain that CoJ and Ohno in particular refers to him as "Nash" yet allowed his named to be listed as "Charlie Nash" on that dogtag b/c either they just didn't care or they thought people would get a kick out of the Easter Egg reference. Witness Advent Children where Tifa has a ring on her fingers which led to people saying she and Cloud are married. Now the ring's on the wrong hand but again the implication those two are in fact, married, is pretty evident.

    I think the implication with regards to Charlie vs Nash vs Charlie Nash, is Capcom tried to do some fanservice with that dogtag scene and it blew up spectacularly in their face. Until someone directly asks Ohno or similar in an interview, I see no reason to change his name to Charlie Nash as opposed to Charlie OR Nash depending on the country. But I also don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a notation within his entry pointing out this is a bone of contention that fans are awaiting further clarification on. And by that I mean, an actual interview be it Text, Video or audio where someone gets an answer and the source is provided for all.

    Which brings us to Poison and gender pronoun usage... to me it looks like the primary source for the gender issue is Poison's bio in the Capcom Collection which I do not have but apparently does refer to Poison using 'he', if this is different from what the actual game says, can someone please provide a screen shot or so or provides a recent official statement from CoJ where they explicitly refer to Poison as female. Otherwise I'm going to have to side with Vas on this one. Whether or not we feel it's correct to Poison as female and using that form of pronoun has to be kept secondary to what the official sources and statement say.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    edited August 2013
    Yagami, I'm going guess that using the Razor method you're both right and wrong on the Charlie Nash issue. I'm fairly certain that CoJ and Ohno in particular refers to him as "Nash" yet allowed his named to be listed as "Charlie Nash" on that dogtag b/c either they just didn't care or they thought people would get a kick out of the Easter Egg reference. Witness Advent Children where Tifa has a ring on her fingers which led to people saying she and Cloud are married. Now the ring's on the wrong hand but again the implication those two are in fact, married, is pretty evident.

    ...what? The ring situation is nothing like the Charlie Nash situation. One is a ring on the wrong finger with nothing indicating anything about marriage...the other is a persons name explicitly shown on a piece of identifying material.

    See this is a major concern...it's like you guys don't even understand what "canon" means...or how fictional narratives work. When you compare such radically different apples & oranges it just comes off as...desperate. COJ didn't allow "Charlie Nash" to be written on the dog tags...that is not how contracting outside work works in reality. They would have explicitly instructed that it be put in the video. It is purposeful.

    I mean, you realize that using your logic, anything at all shown in any part of the game can be dismissed as an "easter egg" right? Because Dictator isn't alive again...his enter existence in the story is an easter egg in 4. Also Viper talking to a daughter? Easter egg, she has no kid...it's just a joke. References to the Dolls? Easter egg, they're non-canon because SF Alpha isn't canon somehow. Ryu channeling SnH in his Metsu Shoryuken? Easter egg, non-canon.

    Additionally, you don't seem to understand how Occam's Razor works. Look how much you have to write to justify how Charlie Nash could still not be Charlie Nash. Paragraphs. Look at how many assumptions or justifications you have to come up with. "He's not Charlie Nash because what we were shown is an easter egg put in by Capcom, but they didn't want it to be taken seriously but it has become confusing for people and that is leading to the current confusion." Assumptions upon assumptions. What is the flipside? "His name is Charlie Nash because it is shown as such in a canon source". Done. End of statement. Number of assumptions required? None. Zero. Occam's Razor indicates that the latter is far more likely to be accurate because it requires the least assumptions and is also the easiest argument to support using known facts.
    I think the implication with regards to Charlie vs Nash vs Charlie Nash, is Capcom tried to do some fanservice with that dogtag scene and it blew up spectacularly in their face. Until someone directly asks Ohno or similar in an interview, I see no reason to change his name to Charlie Nash as opposed to Charlie OR Nash depending on the country. But I also don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a notation within his entry pointing out this is a bone of contention that fans are awaiting further clarification on. And by that I mean, an actual interview be it Text, Video or audio where someone gets an answer and the source is provided for all.

    Blew up spectacularly in their faces? Double you tee eff? Yeah the internet really cracked in half on that one! Uh...no. Literally no one gives a shit. Everyone I've seen everywhere else just accepted it at face value and basically said "Oh neat. He's Charlie Nash"...and that was the end of it. Except in the plot guide because Vas doesn't want it to be "Charlie Nash" and so he insists it isn't even though canon doesn't work that way. New canon sources trump old canon sources. This is fact. This is how canon works. The new canon video overwrites, replaces and countermands ALL PREVIOUS INFORMATION at will and, until it is contradicted by something saying that his name is NOT "Charlie Nash" (and that means something saying explicitly that...not him being referenced separately as Charlie or Nash in different sources since that does not invalidate him being "Charlie Nash" in total) then he is "Charlie Nash". Canon video content > what Vas says, if you were not aware, when it comes to determining what is or is not canon. Shocking I know. Seriously, this is just silly.
    Which brings us to Poison and gender pronoun usage... to me it looks like the primary source for the gender issue is Poison's bio in the Capcom Collection which I do not have but apparently does refer to Poison using 'he', if this is different from what the actual game says, can someone please provide a screen shot or so or provides a recent official statement from CoJ where they explicitly refer to Poison as female. Otherwise I'm going to have to side with Vas on this one. Whether or not we feel it's correct to Poison as female and using that form of pronoun has to be kept secondary to what the official sources and statement say.

    ...see this is where I'm going to have to call shenanigans. I literally just posted two quotes from Ono himself in my previous post.

    http://www.egmnow.com/articles/news/egm-interviewyoshinori-ono/#

    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

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  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    Actually, y'know what? With the magic of technology I'm going to do my own research...be back in a bit...after all, I have a library of the Japanese Capcom guides.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    edited August 2013
    A.A. Game Series Vol. 1 - All About Capcom Fighting Games 1987-2000

    Hugo's entry for 3rd Strike - Poison is referred to as "She" with "He" placed in parentheses for clarification. The He is only there for clarification since it is in parenthesis and the actual sentence uses "She". Interesting. Also, in Poison's entry for Final Fight Revenge she is also referred to as "She" and "Her". In Poison's own section it lists the male sign for biological gender (duh) but then goes on to refer to Poison as in the role of "Elder Sister" to Hugo. Yeah...elder sister.

    So...the notion that Capcom exclusively (or even predominantly) uses the male pronoun for Poison is...drum roll...untrue.
    Post edited by YagamiFire on
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    technically in Japan the last name is always said before the first name .
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    Can we expect a response on any of this? Whether or not you agree with the conclusion, Vas, these are official sources and deserve to at least be acknowledged as a contrasting viewpoint somewhere in the guide.
  • aerialgrooveaerialgroove Joined: Posts: 1,300
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    So we have that it is considered a "one-time" Easter egg. Considered by who? No one but Vasili.
    And others including me. I am still not convinced by vasili10’s claim that Zangief was designed to be homosexual based on the interpretation of him and Gorbachev being called special friends in a fan book. But I also don’t regard a third party studio drawing Zangief’s ending with girls on a pool as proof for the opposite. Hardly anyone cares enough about the SF canon to make sure there are no conflicts. People produce work to make money and if they can please fans at the same time, fine. Accuracy is not a priority for these people and small errors are bound to happen when Capcom outsources the work.

    Besides that I get the impression you are a troll who tries to apply political correctness to fictional work just to stir things up and get attention. Most dark skinned characters in the SF universe are not fleshed out as well as the white and Asian characters and some are outright ridiculous. Documenting these characters doesn’t mean you get to change them. Feel free to make a website criticizing Capcom not the people documenting their work.

    If you haven’t noticed, Poison is a joke character, who just got “acrobatics” added as special skill in a game with a strip club background. There are a lot of jokes we don’t like but we don’t pretend they are not jokes. We call them bad jokes.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    Besides that I get the impression you are a troll who tries to apply political correctness to fictional work just to stir things up and get attention.

    If you haven’t noticed, Poison is a joke character, who just got “acrobatics” added as special skill in a game with a strip club background. There are a lot of jokes we don’t like but we don’t pretend they are not jokes. We call them bad jokes.

    That's irrelevant. Political correctness isn't about respecting the character, it's about respecting OTHER transgendered. So it doesn't matter one whit how 'serious' a character it is. Poison self identifies as female, so the correct thing is to refer to her with female pronouns.

    To make yet another analogy, let's say the next game includes a Dan-style character who is gay. And they reveal this because in his bio they say he's a "f****t". Does him being a joke character make this more ok? No. Should the plot guide say "officially, he's a f****"? No. The facts are that he is gay and you can put that in the guide. You don't have to use the same disrespectful terminology in order to say the same thing.

    And given that Capcom themselves have realized this is something to be aware of and is working with LBGT advocates groups to find and fix such instances, it is even more silly that we are not.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    MuKen wrote: »
    Can we expect a response on any of this? Whether or not you agree with the conclusion, Vas, these are official sources and deserve to at least be acknowledged as a contrasting viewpoint somewhere in the guide.

    MuKen, thus far I have seen for contrasting viewpoints only valid sources misread and misunderstood, or "sources" actually not valid at all, or questions/complaints/rants already addressed either recently or long ago. It's not about me agreeing with any conclusion, it's about how said conclusion stacks up with everything currently in place in accordance with CJ's seishi. The release of USF4 will prompt the next guide update, and only then will appropriate actions be made.

  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    vasili10 wrote: »
    MuKen, thus far I have seen for contrasting viewpoints only valid sources misread and misunderstood, or "sources" actually not valid at all

    You haven't said for any of the multiple sources given how they were misinterpreted or why they are invalid. I'm not even clear on whether or not you are reading what anyone says since you aren't responding to any of it.
  • aerialgrooveaerialgroove Joined: Posts: 1,300
    It’s not the job of the plot guide to correct what you personally think should be changed about the games it documents. If anything is irrelevant to the plot guide it’s your opinion. If you want to make the world a better place, go to Capcom and tell them to do things differently.

    Don’t complain to the weather forecaster about the weather. (A lot of people actually do)

    And about your example, yes whatever the official bio says should be stated as the official bio in the plot guide, that’s the point. People can then check the plot guide, decide they don’t like something and complain to Capcom about it or not buy their games anymore. If you act like it’s not in the bio you are being delusional and expect other people to also be delusional. You’re not going to right a wrong by pretending it doesn’t exist in the first place.
  • FirestreakRodimusFirestreakRodimus Joined: Posts: 94
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    [

    ...what? The ring situation is nothing like the Charlie Nash situation. One is a ring on the wrong finger with nothing indicating anything about marriage...the other is a persons name explicitly shown on a piece of identifying material.

    See this is a major concern...it's like you guys don't even understand what "canon" means...or how fictional narratives work. When you compare such radically different apples & oranges it just comes off as...desperate. COJ didn't allow "Charlie Nash" to be written on the dog tags...that is not how contracting outside work works in reality. They would have explicitly instructed that it be put in the video. It is purposeful.

    I mean, you realize that using your logic, anything at all shown in any part of the game can be dismissed as an "easter egg" right? Because Dictator isn't alive again...his enter existence in the story is an easter egg in 4. Also Viper talking to a daughter? Easter egg, she has no kid...it's just a joke. References to the Dolls? Easter egg, they're non-canon because SF Alpha isn't canon somehow. Ryu channeling SnH in his Metsu Shoryuken? Easter egg, non-canon.

    Additionally, you don't seem to understand how Occam's Razor works. Look how much you have to write to justify how Charlie Nash could still not be Charlie Nash. Paragraphs. Look at how many assumptions or justifications you have to come up with. "He's not Charlie Nash because what we were shown is an easter egg put in by Capcom, but they didn't want it to be taken seriously but it has become confusing for people and that is leading to the current confusion." Assumptions upon assumptions. What is the flipside? "His name is Charlie Nash because it is shown as such in a canon source". Done. End of statement. Number of assumptions required? None. Zero. Occam's Razor indicates that the latter is far more likely to be accurate because it requires the least assumptions and is also the easiest argument to support using known facts.
    I think the implication with regards to Charlie vs Nash vs Charlie Nash, is Capcom tried to do some fanservice with that dogtag scene and it blew up spectacularly in their face. Until someone directly asks Ohno or similar in an interview, I see no reason to change his name to Charlie Nash as opposed to Charlie OR Nash depending on the country. But I also don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a notation within his entry pointing out this is a bone of contention that fans are awaiting further clarification on. And by that I mean, an actual interview be it Text, Video or audio where someone gets an answer and the source is provided for all.

    I understand perfectly how Occam's Razor works. You're highly PO'd that for whatever reason Vas has opted to not change the plot guide because he doesn't regard a five second animation clip within the game as definitive proof that Charlie/Nash's name going forward is in fact, "Charlie Nash". I can't actually criticize him for doing so b/c we've seen Capcom retcon and change events within their games to whatever they see fit.

    However, I would support and suggest to vas, that perhaps a notation is in order in the entry for that character that it is believed his name is Charlie Nash pending official statements from Capcom of Japan. That is to say, someone gets an interview, asks the question and gets a definitive statement one way or another. And Oh yes, that interview is sourced and placed online.

    Blew up spectacularly in their faces? Double you tee eff? Yeah the internet really cracked in half on that one! Uh...no. Literally no one gives a shit. Everyone I've seen everywhere else just accepted it at face value and basically said "Oh neat. He's Charlie Nash"...and that was the end of it. Except in the plot guide because Vas doesn't want it to be "Charlie Nash" and so he insists it isn't even though canon doesn't work that way. New canon sources trump old canon sources. This is fact. This is how canon works. The new canon video overwrites, replaces and countermands ALL PREVIOUS INFORMATION at will and, until it is contradicted by something saying that his name is NOT "Charlie Nash" (and that means something saying explicitly that...not him being referenced separately as Charlie or Nash in different sources since that does not invalidate him being "Charlie Nash" in total) then he is "Charlie Nash". Canon video content > what Vas says, if you were not aware, when it comes to determining what is or is not canon. Shocking I know. Seriously, this is just silly.

    Judging by the severe over-reaction, I'd say it did blow up spectacularly in their faces. Whilst I tend to agree with you that yes his name is Charlie Nash and yes the PG could be updated to reflect that, I'm not going to go all in and demand it be changed. Because I think vas has a valid point at this point in time. We'll see if and when AAC or any of the other printed sources are reprinted and updated.


    [quote
    ...see this is where I'm going to have to call shenanigans. I literally just posted two quotes from Ono himself in my previous post.

    http://www.egmnow.com/articles/news/egm-interviewyoshinori-ono/#

    And the most important lines of that interview are as follows:

    Ono = Italics, interviewer in bold.

    This whole big conversation now exists about Poison, a character who, really, was little more than an insignificant enemy character in her original appearance. Then, over the years since Final Fight first appeared, she’s taken on this huge life of her own, especially among the online community. How do you feel about now being in the middle of the discussion on who she really is? Do you enjoy the topic, or have all of the questions come to annoy you?


    Well, as you said, it’s a character that has been around for a while, and initially—as you probably know—the initial intent for Final Fight was that she was just a regular woman. Over the next 20 years, there’s been some changes, and Capcom’s official stance has and will continue to be that we don’t have a stance technically. It’s supposed to be mysterious; if people want to talk about it on forums or what not they’re welcome to, but we’re not going to give you a straight answer because, well, there isn’t one. We deliberately want to make it a mysterious thing—that question of what’s at the core of this character. At the end of the day, we don’t have an actual canonical answer to that.

    It’s interesting, because it almost takes on a sort of Rorschach test. If you go into it with the pre-conceived notion that she’s a woman, the way she talks, the way she moves, you’ll see all of that as being very feminine. If you go in with the pre-conceived notion that she’s not, her actions and mannerisms will seem the other way to you. So, it’s very open-ended.

    From my point of view, I’m very happy to have fans continue to discuss that, but once again we’re not going to give an official answer. We’re happy to leave that open and up to individual fans.

    This is the polite way of Capcom saying "PUNT THE BALL". They're not giving an answer one way or the other because they know however they answer, someone will get offended. So really it's all the eye of the beholder at this point.

    So rather then this being a discussion about about which gender pronoun being used, the plot guide probably should be amended to reflect Capcom's open-ended answer on the subject.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    It’s not the job of the plot guide to correct what you personally think should be changed about the games it documents. If anything is irrelevant to the plot guide it’s your opinion. If you want to make the world a better place, go to Capcom and tell them to do things differently.

    And about your example, yes whatever the official bio says should be stated as the official bio in the plot guide, that’s the point. People can then check the plot guide, decide they don’t like something and complain to Capcom about it or not buy their games anymore. If you act like it’s not in the bio you are being delusional and expect other people to also be delusional. You’re not going to right a wrong by pretending it doesn’t exist in the first place.

    The official bio's for Poison refer to her as a "her" and "She" and "Elder Sister". Shouldn't the guide then...oh I dunno...go by whatever the official bio says? Isn't that the point? I have already sourced these profiles. Care to refute those sources?
    I understand perfectly how Occam's Razor works. You're highly PO'd that for whatever reason Vas has opted to not change the plot guide because he doesn't regard a five second animation clip within the game as definitive proof that Charlie/Nash's name going forward is in fact, "Charlie Nash". I can't actually criticize him for doing so b/c we've seen Capcom retcon and change events within their games to whatever they see fit.

    I'm not PO'd, I'm speaking up regarding inaccuracy in the plot guide. Since I have an interest in Street Fighter canon, and the community, I feel that it is reasonable that I would feel obligated to do so. And yes, you CAN take that as definitive proof because that is how canon works. It is newer. It is shown. It becomes canon. Did you take the five second cameo of Jabba the Hutt in Phantom Menace to mean it was canon that Jabba the Hutt was on Tattoine and at the Boonta Eve pod race at the time? Same thing. A canon event depicted a fact...that fact becomes canon. Again, this is how canon works.
    However, I would support and suggest to vas, that perhaps a notation is in order in the entry for that character that it is believed his name is Charlie Nash pending official statements from Capcom of Japan. That is to say, someone gets an interview, asks the question and gets a definitive statement one way or another. And Oh yes, that interview is sourced and placed online.

    Yet there are myriad things in the plot guide that came from an "anonymous" "inside" source within Capcom that have never been verified or thoroughly substantiated. How do those two things reconcile? The game is the highest form of canon. It showed something. It becomes canon. If a disclaimer is then put in that "This is the only such instance of this fact in the canon" fair enough...but the very fact that Vas won't even put in what you are suggesting (the very reasonable idea for the notation) really reveals a lot about how the plot guide is now being maintained and the mentality behind it.
    Judging by the severe over-reaction, I'd say it did blow up spectacularly in their faces. Whilst I tend to agree with you that yes his name is Charlie Nash and yes the PG could be updated to reflect that, I'm not going to go all in and demand it be changed. Because I think vas has a valid point at this point in time. We'll see if and when AAC or any of the other printed sources are reprinted and updated.

    Even if it were questionable, something questionable should not be stated as fact in a plot guide. Holding your breath for another AAC is just silly. It is taking Vas as a higher source of canon than the games. Seriously think about that. The plot guide is trying to be positioned as higher canon than the games. Does that sound right to you?
    This is the polite way of Capcom saying "PUNT THE BALL". They're not giving an answer one way or the other because they know however they answer, someone will get offended. So really it's all the eye of the beholder at this point.

    So rather then this being a discussion about about which gender pronoun being used, the plot guide probably should be amended to reflect Capcom's open-ended answer on the subject.

    Irrelevant. The argument from Vas was that the plot guide was just maintaining the same verbiage as used by CJ. The interview and the information I also posted reveals Vas' statement to be false. The verbiage by CJ has been to refer to Poison as a "She" both in AAC and in current interviews. True or false? If so, then shouldn't the plot guide be updated to accurately reflect the verbiage of CJ that Vas claims to support?
    vasili10 wrote: »
    MuKen wrote: »
    Can we expect a response on any of this? Whether or not you agree with the conclusion, Vas, these are official sources and deserve to at least be acknowledged as a contrasting viewpoint somewhere in the guide.

    MuKen, thus far I have seen for contrasting viewpoints only valid sources misread and misunderstood, or "sources" actually not valid at all, or questions/complaints/rants already addressed either recently or long ago. It's not about me agreeing with any conclusion, it's about how said conclusion stacks up with everything currently in place in accordance with CJ's seishi. The release of USF4 will prompt the next guide update, and only then will appropriate actions be made.

    Bollocks. Disprove me, Vas. Tell me where it's wrong instead of hiding behind your round-about claims. Misread? Misunderstood?

    Actually you know what?

    This is the age of the internet. Facts can't hide behind scarcity.

    When I get back from the gym I'm going to post the original pages from AAC regarding Poison. Then I'll post the translations of the Japanese there-in...but anyone else will be welcome to go ahead and translate for themselves as well...because I am not afraid of facts. I am not afraid to show my work. I'm actually looking for facts and the truth, so the more eyes that are on it the better.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    I want to get something out of the way first.

    YagamiFire: Just give it a fucking rest, already. You can argue against the plot guide all you want, but you're not getting anywhere in refuting its entries since you clearly don't know where to look. You just keep dragging this shit on and on. It's annoying, and it's going to end now.

    Because unlike you, I knew exactly where to look. And that's Azrael.


    Azrael was the one person people have been turning to for translations since vanilla SF4 was still in its loke test phases in Japanese arcades. He had easy access to the game because unlike the rest of us, he actually lives there. Whenever there was a win quote someone wanted to know the meaning of that popped up in recorded footage, he wouldn't give you garbled sentences in English. He'd give you spoken dialogue that would actually stay true to form in the game's overseas versions.

    I didn't think to ask him for his take on Vasili's claims because he's been a long-time follower of this thread, going as far back as to when Tiamat was the one transcribing the info from Saiki. It seems Azreal hasn't been keeping up as of late because he never heard anything about this Gouken and Gen zombie/clone business until I told him about it just yesterday.


    So here's the evidence Vasili put out at Unity.
    For strictly the phrase "SIN clones" the indicators are Seth's SF4 and SSF4 win quotes to Gouken, Seth's SF4 win quote to Gen, and to a lesser extent Seth's SSF4 win quote to Gen. These can be found translated on almost the very bottom of page 3 and in page 4 of the Appendices thread linked at the beginning of this thread. Use the Table of Contents (found at the beginning of the Appendices thread) to help guide you to the specific pages and posts.

    Many other quotes and text however support the more general stance that both Gen and Gouken during the SF4 series aren't their normally living, breathing selves, and you're encouraged to check their respective sections in the guide for more of these references.


    And this is what Azrael had to say about it.
    This is the first I've ever heard of the zombie/clone thing, and it's pretty far-fetched. As far as I know the official canon for Gouken is that he used the power of "Mu" or "nothingness" to block Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu which is why he survived. But it did knock him out for awhile which is why everyone thought he was dead. Gen...just hasn't died yet. :P

    But ok, win quotes. I'll provide the official translations first.

    SF4

    Seth to Gouken: You are a fool to forbid yourself from such power! Leave my sight at once!

    Pretty much accurate. A direct translation would be "When faced with a power you don't understand the best you can do is seal it off. How foolish. Old fighters should just fade away." In reference to Gouken not exploring the killing art of Ansatsuken and developing his "nothingness" technique as a counter.

    Seth to Gen: Your skills come from assassinating the weak. As such, they lack true power.

    More or less accurate, Seth basically says "You can kill hundreds of thousands of weaklings, but that doesn't mean your skills are getting any better."

    SSF4

    Seth to Gouken: Men like you who seal their power deep inside are an impediment to evolution!

    The official translation is accurate. Seth is talking about how Gouken doesn't explore the full (killing) potential of Ansatsuken.

    Seth to Gen: I have no use for an aged assassin. I have weapons sufficient for that task.

    The official is more or less accurate. A more accurate translation of the Japanese would be "If it's just about killing weaklings I have plenty of ways to do that. Which are far more effective than you." It becomes clumsy in English but Seth is just saying Gen is only about killing the weak, and Seth can already do that so Gen has nothing to offer him.

    He also closed it off with these comments about the Appendices thread.
    I kind of skimmed through the thread you linked, and most of the translations there were pretty awful. But anyway there has been nothing in any version of any SF4 to ever suggest that Gouken and Gen are clones/zombies, and I can promise you on very good authority that they aren't.

    It's safe to trust the English version, while things may be changed around for entertainment purposes most if not all major plot points are left in. We're kind of past the point of "original Japanese version" anyway.


    Feel free to drop him a PM if you want, Vasili. I'm not making this up.
    " Scrubs keep our community alive, not top players, everyone (even myself at times) seem to forget that."
    - Arturo Sanchez, aka Sabin
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    Thank you Kataklysmic. Nice investigative reporting. Big thanks to Azrael too (even if he doesn't see it).
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 1,020
    It actually crossed my mind to ask him about some translations a few times, but I didn't, because we've never talked about any topic and I know he's been busy with his family and all. Nice to read. Thank you lots.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Feel free to drop him a PM if you want, Vasili. I'm not making this up.

    I will. Thanks Kataklysmic.

  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    I kind of skimmed through the thread you linked, and most of the translations there were pretty awful.

    It brings me much satisfaction to see someone fluent in Japanese echo what I've been saying for a couple years now.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    edited August 2013
    It took nothing less. I don't understand why I'm the one who had to do this. The best anyone had around here was mountains of bullshit typed ad nauseum.
    vasili10 wrote: »

    I will. Thanks Kataklysmic.

    No problem. Just be sure to ask him for some good lessons on understanding Japanese, will you? Because you really have no leg to stand on anymore. Azrael didn't learn by reading a book like you apparently did. He communicates with Japanese every hour of his motherfucking life. And everyone who's been to this site for the last ten years knows that.

    The sheer disappointment I have right now is baffling. It was bad enough that anyone reading the plot guide would have to come to you for a translation of a TRANSLATION. But to know the result is more than likely a misinterpretation after the fact? I never believed you'd be the type that would lie, but this is ridiculous. Ultima said it best. The plot guide really is no better off than a goddamn wiki now.
    Post edited by Kataklysmic on
    " Scrubs keep our community alive, not top players, everyone (even myself at times) seem to forget that."
    - Arturo Sanchez, aka Sabin
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    It took nothing less. I don't understand why I'm the one who had to do this. The best anyone had around here was mountains of bullshit typed ad nauseum.
    vasili10 wrote: »

    I will. Thanks Kataklysmic.

    No problem. Just be sure to ask him for some good lessons on Japanese, will you? Because you really have no leg to stand on anymore. Everybody who's been on this site for the last ten years knows Azrael communicates with Japanese every hour of his motherfucking life, and his word easily trumps yours.

    The sheer disappointment I have right now is baffling. It was bad enough that anyone reading the plot guide would have to come to you for a translation of a TRANSLATION. But to know the result is more than likely a misinterpretation after the fact? I never believed you'd be the type that would lie, but this is ridiculous. Ultima said it best. The plot guide really is no better off than a goddamn wiki now.

    Wish I had known of Azrael...only really seen his name thrown around a couple times. Honestly, thanks for going the extra mile to approach the situation from another angle (and a very effective one at that). Whatever side of a discussion I'm on, right or wrong, I do honestly appreciate the effort, Kataklysmic just as I appreciate Azrael taking the time to use his linguistic expertise. I'll have to shoot him a thank you PM for the work (though honestly, I'd expect a "who the hell are you?" response hah).

    Also, mea culpa on not taking your approach. Knowing Azrael, or someone else I could ask for Japanese translations, would have allowed me to do so. Only person I know that speaks fluent Japanese is my buddy David but he's currently in the air-force so he can't help me with translations at the moment. Not an excuse, just saying sorry for not being able to seek answers in the same way. Thanks again.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG

    No problem. Just be sure to ask him for some good lessons on understanding Japanese, will you? Because you really have no leg to stand on anymore. Azrael didn't learn by reading a book like you apparently did. He communicates with Japanese every hour of his motherfucking life. And everyone who's been to this site for the last ten years knows that.

    Hold on a second dude. If you mean I learned by teaching myself, that's not the case. I was taught the language in school, and I was taught to be able to read and understand pretty much anything in the language with the aid of dictionaries for words I'm not automatically familiar with. That's what I've been doing all this time, and it's what allowed me to initially verify most of everything Saiki had presented.

    Also I had always allowed the opportunity for others fluent in the language to judge my efforts, because Tiamat did the same. This is the first time I've ever received such a thorough strike-down from anyone like that though, and from someone I had previously thought supported my findings. I'm not making any of this up.

    In any case, because I look to have been counted as completely incapable of what I thought I was justified as able to do, I'll see that the guide and the appendices are taken away from everywhere since they no longer serve their intended purpose the way they presently are. I'm sincerely sorry to everyone for all these years, and I really don't know what else to say to make amends. Sayonara minna-san...this is my last post here.

  • AzraelAzrael Epic Calling! Joined: Posts: 3,258
    You shouldn't beat yourself up over it. Japanese is really fucking hard. They leave out a lot of pronouns that English usually uses and you have to assume/guess who or what they're talking about. The language structure is not similar at all, and that's not even counting cultural differences and just the way Japanese people think to communicate things. Plus SF is an entertainment medium; you have characters talking using archaic language and pretty much slang. The best way to overcome mistakes is to learn from them. :)

    Torem_Kamina:

    Definitely need to work that EX Tatsu wake-up into my gameplan. Sacrificing damage and stun meter for psychological damage. That's some next level shit right there.

  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 1,020
    edited August 2013
    vasili10 wrote: »
    In any case, because I look to have been counted as completely incapable of what I thought I was justified as able to do, I'll see that the guide and the appendices are taken away from everywhere since they no longer serve their intended purpose the way they presently are. I'm sincerely sorry to everyone for all these years, and I really don't know what else to say to make amends. Sayonara minna-san...this is my last post here.

    You just need to separate confirmed things from speculations and theories. Just admit that there are things that are unclear and that they have their room in the guide. The problem here is that you always tried to get an absolute truth that did not exist in many cases. I have always brought the "Charlie Nash" thing as the most clear example because of how trivial it is and how you don't even consider mentioning it in the guide. It made it evident that you would just not consider anything that went against your ideas. It's a problem of attitude that you can change, not incapability.

    I'm pretty sure that you can understand Japanese and do a valuable job translating stuff as long as you don't try to favour your speculations by reading between lines too much. That said, those speculations are always welcome and they might even be right, you just have to understand them for what they are and not try to sell them as unquestionable facts.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,948
    Holy melodrama Batman!

    This doesn't show that you should leave and give-up Vas. It just goes to show that the plot guide is something that is, rightfully, too big for one individual. Sole authority on something like that is dangerous because of how much room there is for misinterpretation. That's why people, for so long, have been trying to convince you of other outlooks, views and opinions on stuff in the guide. Not to argue with you, or because of some personal vendetta...but because of personal beliefs that lead to personal points of view. It is an attempt to help. The problem arises when criticisms of errors in the guide are taken as personal. Then it becomes an issue of attitude, because it becomes about defending one's self and one's integrity instead of honestly discussing the content and the merits of different points of view.

    Still, the situation has to sting at the moment...and it sucks sure...but it happens and it's only as big a deal as you make it. You're passionate about this stuff and it shows. I'm sure if you give it some time, you'll realize taking the guide down and going away A) isn't helpful to Street Fighter or it's fans and B) isn't really what you want to do. Right now you're the quarterback that fumbled the ball...but the quarterback isn't the only guy on the field. Yeah it's easy to blame yourself and take your ball and go home, but the plot guide is something that you took over. It's gone through different people and had different peoples input. Team effort. Community effort. The community still exists and people that are interested in helping the plot guide still exist.

    I've said before I think you're a smart guy...I think you'll come to a better decision than one made in the heat of the moment like your last post. Prove me right.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    when the plot guide was in Tiamat's hands he got or think he got most of the info from Saiki and he hasn't post here in a long time.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    edited August 2013
    We've had plenty of disagreements Vas, but it's never been that I don't think you contribute valuable stuff to the guide.

    All I've ever said, and continue to say, is that you need to be willing to clearly mark where something is uncertain, and not freak out when somebody suggests that POSSIBLY something is other than what you said. Just put all the evidence in there and let people decide, you don't have to be responsible for deciding truth on your own.

    Just look at tiamat's portions, there's tons of places where he just says "i'm not sure" and that's perfectly fine.
    Post edited by MuKen on
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 13,039 mod
    edited August 2013
    Vasili10 I understand that you're upset and all and if you don't wish to contribute to the Plot Guide that's well and fine. However, sinking it so no one can see it I feel is wrong and an incredibly rash action since a lot of us put tons of work into it. Not more than you or Tiamat have mantaining the thing, but still.

    At the very least if you do have the latest copy feel free to E-mail it to me since I did enjoy reading it.

    For what it's worth maybe because I'm older or whatever and have read so many bad comics, seen bad movies and junk I often take the parts of stories I like and role with it so I don't have to argue about what's official and what isn't.

    In my head Poison had an operation, Gouken survived via what Udon said and while I'm at it, Gen's still dead because he NEVER had to save Chun-Li man fuck him. :P

    I don't argue that anything I said is official or canon, I just feel they could've done A LOT better with Gouken, Gen and Poison and since they didn't lol whatever it's still a fighting game. Nothing in it is written in stone until the next game tells us what happened and what didn't anyway. The series has always been like that.

    Arguing back and forth what's deemed official and canon is well and fine but some of this debate has gone a little too far with regards to a faq that so many people easily dismiss in the first place. People are going to take what's in the games and make of them what they will.

    LOL all of our hard work and people still say Righ-You. Chris Hardwick even says Righ-You on the Wreck-It-Ralph DVD and he's a self proclaimed nerd, YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER! x_X That's why I stay out of a lot of these types of discussions. The faq will never reach all of the people we want it to. You can write Poison is 1,000% female in there and that debate will still continue for years and years.

    Post edited by Sano on
  • MuKenMuKen Joined: Posts: 404
    Wow I didn't realize you actually did take down the guide. Look, if you want to make unavailable whatever changes you've made, that's fine, that's your material and your right to do with as you wish. But a lot of that guide is the content of others, so I'm going to include here a version I have saved (I'm not sure it's the most recent one, but I just want to make sure everything isn't lost)

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8EFYcEZMa4dNmxvMTNjZ0dEQVU/edit?usp=sharing
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 1,020
    That's the latest version, indeed. Version .5.ae

    I have it in html format in case someone wants it.
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    here's a comment about Sakura from Tomoaki Ayano the current producer of Street Fighter

    "It’s often said that you become proficient at that which you love. And Sakura loves street fighting from the bottom of her heart. Add to that some great reflexes, as well as the ability to copy the Hadoken just by watching it, and it’s safe to say that Sakura is a fighting prodigy. A genius, even. That’s why she’s able to fight everyone so well!"

    a Japanese player was asking how Sakura could go toe to toe with martial arts masters and above is Ayano's reply to that.

    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 13,039 mod
    MuKen wrote: »
    Wow I didn't realize you actually did take down the guide. Look, if you want to make unavailable whatever changes you've made, that's fine, that's your material and your right to do with as you wish. But a lot of that guide is the content of others, so I'm going to include here a version I have saved (I'm not sure it's the most recent one, but I just want to make sure everything isn't lost)

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8EFYcEZMa4dNmxvMTNjZ0dEQVU/edit?usp=sharing

    Thanks. Turns out I did have that copy saved, just had to find it. The first word in my doc was 'Gamefaqs' and I was looking for 'Street Fighter' or 'Plot Guide' lol!

    Anyone want a copy feel free to E-mail me at colladoa@sullcrom.com - It's my work E-mail address so if you ask me on Saturday or Sunday just wait a bit.

    For anyone who cares I have no idea what any of these developments mean for the CFE quote faq but I normally wouldn't update for a few months anyway. Around then if Vas isn't back I'll email him, and if he's out it's done. Glad we got Ingrid's quotes in there at least.
  • AbhiAbhi Best Team EVER Joined: Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    wow a lot of writing in that saved box makes it unreadable
    I'm like an Hadoken

    I'm like Down Right Fierce
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    edited August 2013
    LOL. What do you know? He says he wants to make amends, but would rather run off instead of cleaning up the huge mess he made. Yeah, that's real humility there, Vas.

    What's frustrating is this guy actually had some things going for him, mainly that Ono was wrong about things pertaining to every game released prior to SF4. I refuse to believe that all the games are set in their own universes when they clearly still reference each other, or that the ages of all the "teenage" characters are frozen when Ryu's clearly isn't. What's the fucking point of giving him red hair and a slimmer build in Alpha if he wasn't meant to be younger in that series? This "word of god" shit can only be stretched so far. And the fact Ono lied about the polling results for SF4 on consoles was enough to just make me hate him.

    But my blogtv experience was almost completely ruined because Vasili made a liar out of me. I'm still a fan of Omar Dogan's work and continue to get commissions from him when the opportunity is there. The thing is, he has a tendency to act like he knows everything, and at times he can be a pompous asshole. I defended the plot guide and said to just look for the old Capcom publications for evidence, and Omar threw it back in my face. Now I can't blame him anymore. I told him and Jim Zubkavich things under some predisposition that everything that came directly from Ono was bullshit, when in fact it was mostly Vasili wanting to dismiss everything that came from UDON or Capcom USA with no validation. Even after Sven came out and said Capcom had no localization office anywhere outside Japan, he still wanted to blame every inconsistency he perceived on someone else.

    I didn't care for the whole Gouken and Gen issue. The fact Gouken came back at all was ridiculous as is, so I thought the zombie thing might have been a joke Capcom made up to make him playable, sort of like Yun traveling back in time for Alpha 3. But while Vasili believed he had all the answers, his behavior towards others indicated the exact opposite. Sure, YagamiFire did come off as a fucking troll, but telling a bunch of random people on Unity they're wrong just because? Taking the consistency between that and his incredibly senseless rationale behind the zombies, "Charlie Nash" not being official, and the developers referring to Poison as a "he" despite recent interviews, you begin to sense he's not being responsible with his work. He's only in it for the bells and whistles.

    It really is pathetic that it took all this pointless shit slinging to prompt ME to get someone with real Japanese knowledge to correct him. It's a shame Saiki left. If he'd hung around long enough, Tiamat wouldn't have been duped into giving the guide up.
    Post edited by Kataklysmic on
    " Scrubs keep our community alive, not top players, everyone (even myself at times) seem to forget that."
    - Arturo Sanchez, aka Sabin
  • SanoSano SRKSANO on PS4 Joined: Posts: 13,039 mod
    For what it's worth I've emailed both Tiamat and Saiki about what just happened. Now I haven't maintained regular email conversations with either of them in years and even when I did, neither are the quickest to respond. Just felt they should know. Not even sure they still use their old email addresses but worth a shot.

    I speak to vasili10 with emails and PMs fairly regularly but right now it's probably to soon to get in contact with him. A cooling off period might be best.
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