Guile thread

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  • moocusmoocus internets? Joined: Posts: 869
    close st. roundhouse is pimp for stopping people from constantly neutral jumping; just walk close enough and make them take the boot up their ass.
  • F-A-M-I-L-Y ManF-A-M-I-L-Y Man feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229

    im talking about that

    1_cr.jpg

    See 4:30-4:40 of the youtube clip. Kikai uses it in the corner trap vs. Dic. First time he whiffs but it gives him time to charge while remaining up close and the second time it stuffs a scissor kick. It might randomly serve as a "faux option select" as well in case dic tries to jump in and get aa by far or close hp, not sure on that theory fighting though.
    and nobody use this

    3_cr.jpg
    close st. roundhouse is pimp for stopping people from constantly neutral jumping; just walk close enough and make them take the boot up their ass.

    See 4:17 of the youtube clip. It trades in Guile's favor.
    GGPO: Pillowhashi
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    See 4:30-4:40 of the youtube clip. Kikai uses it in the corner trap vs. Dic. First time he whiffs but it gives him time to charge while remaining up close and the second time it stuffs a scissor kick. It might randomly serve as a "faux option select" as well in case dic tries to jump in and get aa by far or close hp, not sure on that theory fighting though.

    See 4:17 of the youtube clip. It trades in Guile's favor.

    Good video examples Family. I didn't know about that variation of the Guile trap against Dic. If you get predictable with it, would Dic be able to just scissor its recovery? Or would he get stuffed by a follow-up st.jab from Guile?

    I didn't know people used his cl.st.roundhouse. Normally I'd opt for the trade on backfist, or go for a cr.forward or cr.roundhouse to land damage to punish neutral jumps.
  • F-A-M-I-L-Y ManF-A-M-I-L-Y Man feedin you and feedin you Joined: Posts: 229
    Good video examples Family. I didn't know about that variation of the Guile trap against Dic. If you get predictable with it, would Dic be able to just scissor its recovery? Or would he get stuffed by a follow-up st.jab from Guile?

    I didn't know people used his cl.st.roundhouse. Normally I'd opt for the trade on backfist, or go for a cr.forward or cr.roundhouse to land damage to punish neutral jumps.

    Thanks, I love Kikai's corner trap. I'm not sure about the recovery, but I assume so. Looking at the frame data, 10 frames recovery on the fierce vs. 8 frames startup on scissor kick. It would require good read/timing on Dic's part. It looks like if you make contact with it, though, there's frame trap potential.
    GGPO: Pillowhashi
  • moocusmoocus internets? Joined: Posts: 869
    it's a preparation move. works good against ryus that try to hurricane over booms at a certain range too.
  • Cheech WizardCheech Wizard Joined: Posts: 3,601
    How do I deal with Hurricane kick happy Ryus? Seems like they can just keep doing it over and again with no risk as it goes through booms, has a fat hitbox and guile has no ways to punish it upon recovery. You dont often have enough charge to flash kick it, when you crouch to avoid it.

    Seems like you have to resort to using neutral j.hp on a pre emptive neutral jump to punish it. Feels kinda risky to me though because if you guess wrong, Ryu can throw a fast fireball that will hit you out of your jump if they dont go the hurricane kick route.
    Slow and steady wins the race
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    How do I deal with Hurricane kick happy Ryus? Seems like they can just keep doing it over and again with no risk as it goes through booms, has a fat hitbox and guile has no ways to punish it upon recovery. You dont often have enough charge to flash kick it, when you crouch to avoid it.

    Seems like you have to resort to using neutral j.hp on a pre emptive neutral jump to punish it. Feels kinda risky to me though because if you guess wrong, Ryu can throw a fast fireball that will hit you out of your jump if they dont go the hurricane kick route.

    You have a variety of options. Realize that Ryu can only hit you with a tatsu by either doing it on reaction at the sweep range, or on a guess at ranges slightly further than that. His tatsu's hitbox alternates from front-to-back, so knowing this, there are brief moments during his spin where he's vulnerable to counterattack, but this is often very difficult to time properly.

    At far distances, you can do an early jump attack to punish, nj.fierce, or backfist. One of the most reliable options would be to flash kick if you have the charge. The other reliable option, if he's doing the roundhouse version of tatsu, is to block spin kick standing, then duck and do a cr.fierce or cl.st.fierce. This helps you time your counterattack for when his leg is swinging behind him, and not towards you. Once he passes over you, your usual options are to do a cl.st.fierce, backfist at long range, or just let him move past you while you jump away and get better positioning.

    If he recovers directly in front of you, it's usually best to hit him with a cr.strong or cr.jab while he's landing. This hits him while he's in midair, which pushes him away, and allows you throw a sonic boom for chip. Low pokes are usually beaten by uppercuts when Ryu lands, since most Ryus love to either uppercut after a spin kick, throw, or low poke into mix-up.

    Generally, this matchup is fairly even at the start of the round, but once Ryu gets super, it tilts in his favor. Overall, I consider it 6-4 Ryu, but a fundamentally-rooted and surgical Guile will be pretty adept at picking his spots to attack, defend, and retreat.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Guile's donkey kick is much safer than bazooka knee for advancing with charge when fighting shotos - specially Ryu. The latter will eat random scrub tatsus that donkey kicks would not. Keep that in mind when throwing your booms, from any range but full screen.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Guile's donkey kick is much safer than bazooka knee for advancing with charge when fighting shotos - specially Ryu. The latter will eat random scrub tatsus that donkey kicks would not. Keep that in mind when throwing your booms, from any range but full screen.
    Some very good anti-shoto Guile play in this shoto-Guile-only tournament:
    http://ja.twitch.tv/shattlu_tv/b/348473331
    The tournament starts around 0:50 or the like in the video.

  • KyouyaKyouya SSF2T Joined: Posts: 173


    16:38, 16:58, etc.

    Respectig the "sonic kick", after watching Muteki and then Mor guile do it, i think that the fastest way posible to do it after a sonic boom, is moving the stick to df after the f+p, if you're using a japanese stick with square gate, thats the less road traveled, then you can just do a half circle back to return to db and charge for another sonic boom, and you already have the flash kick.

    With the amount of time practicing it i assure you it's super fast, personally i don't use it with dictator but if i were a guile player, i'll do it.

    Of course if you're planing to do sonic boom after sonic boom the old method is faster.
    Strike First, Strike Hard, Show No Mercy.
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    so simple and so brilliant
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    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
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  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    that changes the hawk matchup big time.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    Is there any thing guile can do to beat chun's head stomp or should you just block high?
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    Is there any thing guile can do to beat chun's head stomp or should you just block high?

    Depends on the spacing and timing. Typically if she's directly above your head, I use cl.st.mk. Very underrated move that works pretty well against Chun. Best option is to walk past her and do cl.st.fierce for max damage punish. Alternatively, you can do cl.st.strong for better frame advantage at the expense of damage.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Chun-Li_(ST)#Command_Normals

    Shit has priority over pretty much anything in the game that's not invulnerable. Eltrouble's advice is good since that move can beat or trade with several aerial attacks, but odds are you will be hit by Chun's head stomp if she goes for that, and it's a very bad idea to just block every jump-in of Chun's, since then you will be vulnerable to throws and combos as she lands.

    If you are not cornered, you can hit her from behind after the head stomp.
  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    Thanks, I have a lot of trouble with that match up. More so than O Sagat or Claw for whatever reason. She is just so fast and her normals are so good.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    Thanks, I have a lot of trouble with that match up. More so than O Sagat or Claw for whatever reason. She is just so fast and her normals are so good.

    A lot of it is knowing what ranges you want to keep yourself at. At far distances, you can actually trade cr.fierce with her jump attacks and it'll trade in your favor. At medium range distance, she has a bit of an advantage. She can jump over your sonic boom on reaction and beat a lot of your standard anti-airs clean, which lets to putting you in a mixup situation against Chun's pressure. This is never a good thing. Closer than that, you force her to either use fireballs or walk forward to close the gap. You can match fireballs to maintan neutral frame advantage, or she throws a really late fireball to match yours, you can follow up with a backfist. This is the perfect range to be at, since if she jumps, if you have fast reactions, you're actually able to walk underneath her and hit her from the other side. This is a pretty crucial skill that I don't see a lot of Guiles doing.

    God help you if you fight a Chun who actually knows how to properly turtle and build up meter asap. Then it comes a headache.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    It is a good idea to study Muteki, Kotaka Shoten and Kurahashi. They have very good anti-Chun game. Check how they use the sobat kick in several ways that give Chun trouble, and the use of far.strong against jump-ins from a certain distance. Guile demands a very deep distance awareness in this match-up, but he can play against Chun.

    Mars also has experience against her, since he used to play a lot against Chris "Techmonkey" Doyle.
  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    I've been watching a lot of Muteki stuff, he is a great player. I guess I just have trouble implementing some of the stuff I see/read. I have a bad tendency to try to flash kick the headstomp since it beats almost every other jump-in in the game, really bad habit for that match though. I think I just need more experience, there aren't too many good chun players on ggpo that I have seen except for CUPYAKISOBA who is a really good Japanese player.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    I've been watching a lot of Muteki stuff, he is a great player. I guess I just have trouble implementing some of the stuff I see/read. I have a bad tendency to try to flash kick the headstomp since it beats almost every other jump-in in the game, really bad habit for that match though. I think I just need more experience, there aren't too many good chun players on ggpo that I have seen except for CUPYAKISOBA who is a really good Japanese player.

    Flash kick should beat the head stomp if properly timed. The key is to do it late, so that Guile is invulnerable during her attack. In either case, it's another reason that walk-under anti-airs should be used. She has no counter for it if you get the spacing right.

    There are plenty of decent Chun players on ggpo. Llamah and Unessential are fairly solid players that should give you good practice.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    ^^^ Those guys suck. If you really want to play a good chun, look for papercut. That guy is a fucking beast. Guile players will always have charge ready, because the rush down is so intense, it'll be like they have down back physically bolted down on their stick. Papercut might actually be an alt account otochun is using to play on GGPO. Man, that guy, papercut is really sexy.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    eltrouble wrote: »
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    I've been watching a lot of Muteki stuff, he is a great player. I guess I just have trouble implementing some of the stuff I see/read. I have a bad tendency to try to flash kick the headstomp since it beats almost every other jump-in in the game, really bad habit for that match though. I think I just need more experience, there aren't too many good chun players on ggpo that I have seen except for CUPYAKISOBA who is a really good Japanese player.

    Flash kick should beat the head stomp if properly timed. The key is to do it late, so that Guile is invulnerable during her attack. In either case, it's another reason that walk-under anti-airs should be used. She has no counter for it if you get the spacing right.

    There are plenty of decent Chun players on ggpo. Llamah and Unessential are fairly solid players that should give you good practice.
    my old chun li is a bigger threat
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
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  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    I shouldn't have said I hadn't seen many good chun players on GGPO because Skidmarked Panties and Llamah both beat my ass today.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    I shouldn't have said I hadn't seen many good chun players on GGPO because Skidmarked Panties and Llamah both beat my ass today.

    Both are strong intermediate-to-high-intermediate players. They're also both very helpful and willing to offer advice if you ask.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    I shouldn't have said I hadn't seen many good chun players on GGPO because Skidmarked Panties and Llamah both beat my ass today.

    You're right though. Most chun players on ggpo are crap. They think chun takes no skill to learn and choose her for the gimmicks. But it does say a little about your play since the match is about 7-3 for chun. If you see SMP and llamah often go and ask them. I feel SMP is more solid in his play than llamah though. You can also ask zagi and paper cut. Great chuns as well (IMO, better than SMP and llamah, although paper cut can be a bit trolly). I'm on rarely but if you can catch me on I can help you with the matchup too. There used to be more chuns but they don't show up on ggpo much anymore (since the summer, I've dialed down a lot too...)

    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
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  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    I think I have the timing down for hitting the neckbreaker with flash kick, you were right eltrouble you just have to do it late and it will beat it. I was doing better against another Chun I played yesterday by knocking her down and doing the cross up or a tick throw. I think I understand the match better now but it's still one of the more difficult ones. If you get a hard knock down is it worth going for j short (switching between cross up and normal), cr strong xx flash kick and if she blocks just a tick throw?
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Personally, I'd always go for the ambiguous crossup after a knockdown. If you can space and time it properly, it's pretty hard to guess which side Guile will hit. Hit confirm into combo of your choice.

    If she blocks, you can either play it safe and do cr.strong, cr.short x sonic boom, or you can go for tick throws. Tick throws have a bit of risk, since there's a good chance she'll counter throw you first. Chun can make Guile cry for days if you get caught in her throw loop mixups. The alternative is to mix up your tick throw setups. cr.jab ~ throw, cr.jab x2 ~ throw, cr.strong ~ throw, cr.short ~ throw, etc etc... Mix it up to avoid getting predictable, which makes it harder for chun to know when and where she needs to stand up to counter throw.
  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    Yeah, that's what I've been doing, going for the ambiguous cross up. I'm going to look into learning that block string because i was just going for tick throws if she blocked the right way.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    I think I have the timing down for hitting the neckbreaker with flash kick, you were right eltrouble you just have to do it late and it will beat it. I was doing better against another Chun I played yesterday by knocking her down and doing the cross up or a tick throw. I think I understand the match better now but it's still one of the more difficult ones. If you get a hard knock down is it worth going for j short (switching between cross up and normal), cr strong xx flash kick and if she blocks just a tick throw?

    Don't confuse neckbreaker with headstomp.meaty neckbreaker needs a reversal flashkick.

    Also, if you don't have a charge,a then li jump in becomes a guess between headstomp, regular kick or a punch. All requiring a different answer from guile. Almost every sonic boom from guile is a free chance to jump in on guile by chun. And if the guile is psychic, she doesn't even need to jump in.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    Oh yeah, I meant headstomp, my mistake. The neckbreaker can be a pain on wake up too.

    What you mentioned is a lot of my problem in this match, I'll throw a boom and then she'll jump in on me and it feels like there's nothing i can do if I'm not chrarged. What normals do you use for punch and kick jump ins? I have been using crouching fierce against her punches and kicks.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    Oh yeah, I meant headstomp, my mistake. The neckbreaker can be a pain on wake up too.

    What you mentioned is a lot of my problem in this match, I'll throw a boom and then she'll jump in on me and it feels like there's nothing i can do if I'm not chrarged. What normals do you use for punch and kick jump ins? I have been using crouching fierce against her punches and kicks.

    Nothing you can do against neckbreaker on wakeup. She can make it safe to reversal flash kicks and supers. You block and pray to God you can get out of the mixup.

    This goes back to knowing the right ranges to throw sonic booms. It's not about zoning her, it's about understanding her options, and knowing where to keep yourself in order to better punish those options. Guile's only AA options is st.strong (earlier the better), cr.fierce trade anti-airs (only works at far ranges), or cross-under AAs (these work best). Once you realize how utterly useless Guile is at the mid-range, your job will be to either keep yourself at a distance, or keep yourself close enough to punish bad jump ins. At that point, it's time to play footsies, which isn't too bad.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    I just know the matchup from chuns side. So I don't recall the normalo guileis opposed to use.I DO know it is a guessing game though and a few times guiles told me the normals but I never remember for more than a week.

    As for the neckbreaker, against average chuns ALWAYS reversal flash kick. The timing for it is really strict and i still mess it up ocassionally. The problem with this is that builds a bad habit when you get a chun who times it right. Your flash kick will whiff. Try to guage where the neckbreaker will make contact. Often I know I messed up the timing right after I push the button. If chun makes contact with you high (its really only safe if she makes contact and her legs are BELOW the stage) then its a free reversal flash kick, assuming you have the timing down. Otherwise don't risk it you'll eat the neckbreaker if you time it wrong. She only crosses up guile with her neckbreaker if she's at point blank. So guess normal more often than not. Other characters its block normal always or its 50/50 something about guiles speed or hitbox makes it so its harder for chun to catch up to him for a crossup neckbreaker than normal (which is why this is the only match up you'll see me do a ton ambiguous neckbreaker occasionally, simply because even with chuns amazing walk speed, some situations she can't get close enough). When it looks ambiguous try to guague if she had extra time before pressing kick.if so its a guess. If not block normal. Judge by the actual time she has, not by the movement. I've purposely stutter stepped REALLY early so it looks like I ran out of time to trick guiles to blocking normal instead of backwards.

    If chun jumps over you before meaty neckbreaker block the original direction. She can't do it the other direction without making it look really obvious. Else she mistimed it and you can flashkick.

    Again, its only guiles that can use these tricks, everyone either blocks normal all the time or its an absolute guess as we can dance around the sweet spot for a crossup.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Her neckbreaker has weird properties. It's really ambiguous on shotos, but againt Dhalsim, it is ALWAYS in front, despite his huge hurt box. It's bizarre.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    edited October 2013
    Actually, its the generally the bigger characters she can't cross up. It has nothing to do with the hurtbox ASD more to do with how far the center line is firm the outside "push" box. And thus his generally the larger characters with generally larger hit/hurt boxes chun can't cross up. Like Honda, blanka and gief. Amazingly, it works on hawk though. Yay!

    So dhalsim isn't the character that behaves oddly. Hawk is.

    And its just because he doesn't follow a general rule. Not like guile who has all sorts of craziness.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    That makes a lot of sense, although I'd be interested to see the slow-mo of why it works on Hawk and not anyone else. There always seems to be an exception to any rule in ST.
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    @Unessential u mean wider characters, T hawk is nt wide, he is tall, thats it
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Guile can also anti-air Chun with his diagonal jumping fierce "ear slap", much like Ryu can with juggle strong punches. But since it beats Chun's aerial kicks in front of him, but not from above, if Chun doesn't attack, you are probably going to whiff the move and be left wide open for punishment. Chun can also use her fierce punch instead (Otochun usually reacts and uses punch in air-to-air situations), which has much better priority, but even that loses to Guile's aerial slap.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    edited January 2014
    Flash Kick vs Shoryuken: fast-forward up until 29:32 to see the technique. It beats reversal throws and works against several other characters too.

    Edit: thanks to kuroppi for linking the video at ST Revival.
  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    edited February 2014
    I'm confused about how this works. A lot of times I will knock someone down and cross them up with jump short and if i somehow do it too early or don't finish the combo I almost ALWAYS get reversal thrown. As far as I know, jump short, flash kick isn't a blockstring of combo without cr. strong or something in the middle. I'm not sure why reversal throw or srk wouldn't beat this unless there's something I'm missing.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    I'm confused about how this works. A lot of times I will knock someone down and cross them up with jump short and if i somehow do it too early or don't finish the combo I almost ALWAYS get reversal thrown. As far as I know, jump short, flash kick isn't a blockstring of combo without cr. strong or something in the middle. I'm not sure why reversal throw or srk wouldn't beat this unless there's something I'm missing.

    It's an option-select. Damdai used it to great effect against Cammy players back when he played Guile.

    It works on similar principle to the old shotos throw/uppercut o/s. I'm not sure if that's what he went for here, or if he just happened to guess two flash kicks in a row and get lucky, but either way, it works. It's about making your opponent guess the mixup. The theory is that if you time the flash kick properly, you'll beat the uppercut, since flash kick has a bit more invulnerability frames than an srk. But if the opponent does nothing, then the throw mixup activates first and you throw them. If your opponent manages to land the throw first, you'll automatically kara cancel into a flash kick, while they whiff a throw button.
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