3rd Strike Frame Data

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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,885 mod
    ESN wrote: »
    pherai wrote: »
    fun fact - The only shoryus that retain some invincibility frames post start up are Ken EX, Ryu EX and Gouki HP
    You mean for shotos only?

    yes exactly!
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I'm not making a motion for invincibility, I just think most people would find it useful. I for one don't think to look for invincibility frames when comparing data but have found myself searching for that info on a rare occasion, so I can't imagine that it would hurt. For instance, guy keeps getting hit on wake up by uppercut and can't find a way to beat it. He looks for info on its invincibility and finds info pertaining directly to his request. The way things are now, he'd have to know there isn't such a thing as invincibility, but rather invulnerability and only due to a lack of vulnerability and not invincibility as some form of greater qualification. But maybe I'm over-thinking things. If anything, it could help with concurrency issues and narrowing one's threats/options.
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  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Jinrai's invulnerability beats Ryu's ex SRK invulnerability without breaking a sweat.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Jinrai's invulnerability beats Ryu's ex SRK invulnerability without breaking a sweat.

    Are you sure? Does that mean it's high invincibility and low vulnerable?
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    edited November 2013
    well if you want to be more specific, no one in the game is invincible ever.

    everyone is just invulnerable to some extent. since everyone can lose a round which is more what invincible means... but i get what you meant and yeah basically. he isnt much vulnerable in shippu


    ryu's ex srk is fully invulnerable through startup into the start of the move hitting. ken is never actually invulnerable during shippu. just the move has a massive hitbox and his hurtbox is very far away from it making it almost have invulnerability. however if ryu did ex srk as ken did shippu, as long as ryu is up close to ken ryu should win afaik.
    Play more.
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Good points. I'll have to test it out.

    In the last Tourney at Super Arcade there was a moment that inspired that comment.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    edited November 2013
    I believe it completely. Shippu has such a fat area that hits and ryu's srk has a tiny box. so as long as ken isnt right on top of ryu (why would he be if hes gonna use shippu) ryu's ex srk should be eaten up.
    Play more.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited November 2013
    I tried testing out this shippu vs ex srk business in fba-rr, and I couldn't find a way to make ryu win. I made it so that ryu's got an active frame at the same time that ken's vulnerability starts back up.

    This is ryu's first active frame, which doesn't hit because ken is invulnerable.
    wlBylEy.png

    This is Ken's first active frame.
    BWCc8N1.png

    I assume they don't trade because supers have more priority than special moves. It also looks like supers ignore invulnerability by being able to hit pushboxes.

    It's also worth mentioning that the fba-rr script that draws hitboxes lags behind a frame, which is why it looks like ryu is getting hit at the same time he has an active frame.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    i cant imagine it can hit pushbox, its got to be the super > special thing.
    cool though, that would explain it. i just always assumed it wouldn't work because of the required timing and spacing but super > special priority makes it clear.
    Play more.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited November 2013
    I didn't think it could hit pushboxes either, but ryu doesn't have any vulnerability hitboxes. It would also explain why supers can hit during a reset and why genei jin stuffs reversal ex srks.
    Post edited by isotopez on
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Yeah super attacks have always hit with a different qualification. Nice to see that illustrated.
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  • Soul_AvengerDosSoul_AvengerDos Joined: Posts: 2
    That is strange that you couldn't figure out when Ryu can strike. It is a tricky super and I have, maybe once, got Ken on a Power Bomb from Alex. I started the move on Ken before he started the super so when he activated super, hands were well out and ready to reel him in
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited January 2014
    The reason shippu beats ex srk is because it has more priority. Throws have more priority than supers, which is why powerbomb beats it, but the grab has to be active as soon as shippu is active.
    Post edited by isotopez on
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    edited January 2014
    I repeat and offer the solace of a grain of salt, priority in the sense that in an unspecified situation x will always beat y is just not true.
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  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited January 2014
    I guess I should clear that up. I know some people use "priority" to describe the startup of a move or its number of active frames or whatever. I'm talking about the priority system for the types of hitboxes coded in the game - what happens when the active frames of two moves intersect.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    isotopez wrote: »
    I guess I should clear that up. I know some people use "priority" to describe the startup of a move or its number of active frames or whatever. I'm talking about the priority system for the types of hitboxes coded in the game - what happens when the active frames of two moves intersect.

    They trade. Supers have no hurtbox in many cases and thus the seemingly invincible state but if there are two hit boxes one for each character and each of those hitboxes overlaps with a hitbox, they will trade.
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Found this draft recorded for this topic (didn't know forum allowed one draft per topic), don't know why i didn't posted it at the time. It was about Isotopez find about SA3 being able to hit pushbox, and i was answering to Tebbo post i guess:
    Tebbo wrote: »
    i cant imagine it can hit pushbox, its got to be the super > special thing.
    cool though, that would explain it. i just always assumed it wouldn't work because of the required timing and spacing but super > special priority makes it clear.

    Actually, seems it does work with pushbox acting like regular hitbox.
    Tested it with SA3 vs ex SRK (both ken):
    - if SA3 doesn't overlap pushbox (is too far), then nothing happen even when active hitbox is over srk active hitbox (quite normal)
    - if SA3 does overlap it (even from 1 pixel), then it hits even though ther's supposedly nothing to hit (except pushbox and active HB)

    Also, it doesn't seem to apply vs another SA, as Oro ex SA1 still remains invulnerable vs Jinrai, active hitbox overlapping pushbox or not. Same for Jinrai vs Ken SA1 or 2...
    Good find isotopez!
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited January 2014
    Dander wrote: »
    They trade. Supers have no hurtbox in many cases and thus the seemingly invincible state but if there are two hit boxes one for each character and each of those hitboxes overlaps with a hitbox, they will trade.
    BWCc8N1.png
    There is no trade. The ex srk overlaps with Ken, but Ken does not get hit by it. The first hit of shippu overlaps with Ryu, and he does get hit by it. The same thing happens with throws as long as the super has a throwable hitbox, which shippu does, but instead of shippu winning, throw wins.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    edited January 2014
    Crazy that shippu can hit pushboxes.
    I wonder if that is common or uncommon.
    Play more.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    Tebbo wrote: »
    Crazy that shippu can hit pushboxes.
    I wonder if that is common or uncommon.

    I've only tested genei jin, shippu, corkscrew blow, and tanden renki. I know from experience that activation supers like tengu stone and denjin hit pushboxes. Tanden renki doesn't seem to give makoto's normals super priority though. I assume the general rule is that supers can hit pushboxes, with a few exceptions, like tanden renki and grab supers.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Isotopez

    What do the colors on there mean? Are the green push, red hit and blue hurt? I couldn't guess for the white ones.

    It looks there like Ryu is getting hit on the ground which is strange for this scenario because you said you used EX uppercut and all situations where it was EX upper vs Shippu usually end up with the EX upper getting hit out of the ground.
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  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    You're right about the red, green, and blue boxes. White is the throwable hitbox.

    It's definitely ex srk because all his other srks have hurtboxes. I'm pretty sure he's grounded for the first few frames. I don't know what frame he's airborne on, but I remember hitting him out of the air when I was messing around with the move timings.
  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    on ESN's site what would be an example of dash back (recovery cancelled)?
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    ?
    In MISC menu, you can click on the little blue/green/red icon to watch it in action.

    'Full animation' means i did nothing and the end of animation is triggered by a parameter (in game core) going back to neutral value.
    'Recovery cancelled', as soon i inputted the dash, i held up direction to cancel it.

    IIRC, since then, Tebbo (i think?) has shown attacks may be able to cancel dashes sooner than jump.
  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    wow thats pretty cool..so jumps cancel dash recovery.thanks for such a speedy answer i appreciate it
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Jumps or any attack/special/sa i think. Hence Makoto being able to karakusa after a hella short dash forward.
  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    Is this a dynamic of the system that anyone on here consciously uses? If so, please explain how with some examples. Thanks!
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,885 mod
    Never knew things worked that way but I had been using something like this before. After a forward throw with Gouki against Yun, if you dash at him while he quickrises he gets 123 for free, but dash demon beats it. I just figured demon breaks lots of rules anyway so *shrug*
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • ChadChad Joined: Posts: 1,291
    I think dashes also cancel dash recovery. If you watch good Oros you will see that it looks like they're "chaining" the dashes.
  • GaijinblazeGaijinblaze fingerlicans Joined: Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Chad wrote: »
    I think dashes also cancel dash recovery. If you watch good Oros you will see that it looks like they're "chaining" the dashes.

    my understanding of it has always been the exact opposite. ie. that you can cancel dash "recovery" with anything (jump, block, attack, etc) except another dash. i based this off the fact that makoto has to wait a noticeable amount of time between two consecutive dashes and esn's chart shows that she has the longest "recovery" frames, so i put two and two together and ended up with this theory. could be wrong but this is how i've always interpreted whatever dash "recovery" is.
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  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    @ESN @telesniper

    After parrying ibukis toward mk, why can yun punish it with lp lk mp TC only when she couch guards (has joystick in down back). if she stand guards, the TC will not punish her toward mk on parry.

    I am aware you can select the recovery state of some special moves but this move is a normal move.

    If you guys don't know why this occurs that's ok, just curious. Thanks
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  • JAK..JAK.. Joined: Posts: 544
    edited February 2014
    Yuuki- Very interesting...
    Maybe the game treats towards forward more like a jump-in attack? I seem to recall that you can choose your recovery state on your airborne attacks.

    Semi related can ESN, tele, etc also look into ibuki twd's rh frame data. It is listed as -4 on block but testing in OE it seems to be completely safe as ibuki can block both mak's sa1 and ken's sa3.

    Edit. Further testing on towards RH reversal gigas can grab it (holding up after executing move)
    Yangs sa2 hits only if Ibuki tries to crouch block it similar to Yuuki's example.

    My guess is that when executing an "airborne" attack you have one less landing and/or recovery frame if you chose to stand block instead of cr block.

  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    question...is there a way to determine hit advantage of special moves? i cant seem to find it on ESN's site :(
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  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    edited February 2014
    http://gr.qee.jp/01_3rd/index.html
    you can find that information at game restaurant.
    to find the frame data for a character, select the character picture on the left table. once youve gone to the character page, click 一覧 on the far right of the header table.


    under H&G硬直 you'll see the advantage for moves that are guarded (G) moves that hit the opponent standing (立) and moves that hit the opponent crouching (屈)
    the D in that information stands for "down" as in the move knockdown the opponent.

    hope you find this helpful. @djdjw

    let me know if you have any further questions on how to read the frame data or any part of the website.
    かかってきな。
  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    tyvm sir :) very helpful
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    demon 0 frame!

    bus!
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  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    edited March 2014
    This was mainly a response to Hax, but this portion fits better here...
    How is there some red from a hit on Chun 1st screenshot?

    Probably a half frame/missing due to youtube framerates, & she's already being fireballed by SA1. Or press esc to exit fullscreen. 2nd screenshot all the damage is missing too, no red.

    I assume you're referring to the red damage on Chun's life? Damage actually occurs one frame before your reel animation, meaning you need to, in effect, be blocking/parrying at least 2 frames before the move connects visually (5/6 realtime with the reported input lag). Honestly always wondered if that actually has something to do with the varied frame data reported, some being early by a frame and such... maybe they counted until the red? Or factored in how many frames you'd have to block it?

    @ESN How did you measure start up again? Before the red? When the hit color showed? Would this mean that potentially start up could be accurately measured as 1 frame before the red, as on that next/current frame, it's a "done deal"? Or another frame earlier?
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    edited March 2014
    The startup definition i used is:
    the number of frames from when the game registered an attack until the frame when opponent is considered as being hit, without including that last frame. On screen, it will corresponds to "red bar - 1", and "sparks/char hit - 2".

    Full example of how i processed for Gouki cl.LP, first number is current internal frame number of emulator, second is P1 attack variable, third is P2 attack variable (which also show if he is being hit):
    - 79471 : 0 / 0 --> button pressed, startup = 0
    - 79472 : 4 / 0 --> P1 attack registered, startup = 1
    - 79473 : 4 / 0 --> startup = 2
    - 79474 : 4 / 0 --> startup = 3
    - 79475 : 4 / 1 --> P2 registered as hit, red bar, hitstun = 1
    - 79476 : 4 / 1 --> sparks/char bit, hitstun = 2
    - 79477 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 3
    - 79478 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 4
    - 79479 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 5
    - 79480 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 6
    - 79481 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 7
    - 79482 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 8
    - 79483 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 9
    - 79484 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 10
    - 79485 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 11
    - 79486 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 12
    - 79487 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 13
    - 79488 : 4 / 1 --> hitstun = 14
    - 79489 : 0 / 1 --> hit advantage = 1
    - 79490 : 0 / 1 --> hit advantage = 2
    - 79491 : 0 / 1 --> hit advantage = 3, P2 can do something (jump for example) so it'll execute on last frame
    - 79492 : 0 / 0 --> P2 starts to jump

    So we got:
    - startup = 3
    - hit advantage = 3

    On a side note, iirc that's not the same on OE. For this same example, sparks would appear only at 79477 while "char hit" would still happen at 79476.
    Will check this again tonight if i can.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Awesome, thanks for clarifying that again! That's interesting about the difference on OE too!

    Speaking of... I wonder about certain OE chains, maybe it's just a "game speed" issue, but for instance I can Jab Jab Short with Mak so much more consistently on FBA, GGPO, Shmup and Groovy than I can on OE. On Emu I can just double tap and be pretty sure it will combo, but on OE it feels like the pushback of Jab either happens too fast, or the chain window is just smaller, or perhaps happens 1 frame too late (making it a 50% "chance" to not combo) for that particular move.. Or it's an issue with self cancelling moves on OE? Haven't any issues with Jab - Short, just the Jab Jab.

    Probably just me messing the timing up, but I was curious if the self cancel window is the same on r608 as it is on 512. Thanks for that answer again.
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