Guile thread

18910111214»

Comments

  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    I'm confused about how this works. A lot of times I will knock someone down and cross them up with jump short and if i somehow do it too early or don't finish the combo I almost ALWAYS get reversal thrown. As far as I know, jump short, flash kick isn't a blockstring of combo without cr. strong or something in the middle. I'm not sure why reversal throw or srk wouldn't beat this unless there's something I'm missing.
    It's a combo, but it demands precise timing.

    As for the throw, it's usually a good idea to attempt a throw after cross-ups, since they often whiff depending on timing, hitboxes, and scroll. Most players do it, but you can also get baited: the enemy may purposely jump ahead of time, land before you recover from a knockdown, and perform an invulnerable move just before you mash throw. As players gain experience, they often react to a mistimed jump on their part with such moves so as to try and avoid being thrown for free.
  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    Interesting, thanks.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    edited March 2014
    Technically it's useless to do a throw / Dragon Punch option select if the opponent does a reversal throw. It's a myth.

    In this example Guile attacks with a crossup Short and is fully charged for a Flash Kick once he lands.
    The defender is in blockstun for 11 frames and is throwable on the 12th frame.
    Assuming Guile does an OS back Fierce kara-cancelled into Flash Kick.
    On the 12th frame, the startup of Guile's back Fierce begins, but will not be kara-cancelled into the Flash Kick until the 3rd/4th/5th frame.

    Which means if Guile attempts a throw on the 12th frame, he will not be invincible until the 15th/16th frame when the Flash Kick activates.
    Guile can throw the opponent, but he can also be thrown by the opponent.
    If the opponent does a perfect reversal throw on the 12th frame, the same time as Guile, then the game will toss a coin and give it 50% of the time to either Guile or the opponent.

    Now let's say the opponent does not do a perfect reversal throw and times it a little late, say on the 13th or 14th frame after blockstun. Then Guile will throw him, and the Flash Kick install will be useless.
    Let's say Guile does his throw/Flash Kick a little bit late but the opponent does a perfect reversal throw on the 12th frame. Then Guile will be thrown, also making the Flash Kick install useless.

    No matter which way you look at it, installing a Flash Kick or Dragon Punch after a throw attempt is useless if the opponent does a reversal throw. You will either throw him or get thrown depending on the timing.

    The Flash Kick install after a throw only works if the the opponent does something else besides a reversal throw, such as an airborne/invincible attack like a Tatsu or a Shoryu. Then the throw attempt will be kara-cancelled and the Flash Kick will kick in.

    Other than that, this OS is another one of those ST myths that needs to be debunked.
    All the Ryu player in that video had to do was reversal throw.
  • damdaidamdai www.damdai.com Joined: Posts: 1,079
    It's about the risk vs. reward. Worst case scenario, you tech a throw and take minimal damage. Best case, they try to reversal and get countered for full damage. Middle case, they do nothing and get thrown, maybe teching, either way taking some damage. The odds are in your favor, assuming you can execute it. It's a legitimate technique. Not a myth.
    supercade.damdai.com
    tonamento.damdai.com
    frame-advantage.com
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    The only sensible solution to this OS is reversal throw, which if perfectly timed by both players, ends up being a 50-50 chance for both players to do damage. It's not an advantage for either player, assuming the attacker always does a throw/dp install everytime.

    Now if the attacker is doing a mixup, which is different from an option select and has nothing to do with kara cancels or installs, and forces the defender to guess if it's going to be a throw or a dp, then it's a good tactic.

    But this topic is about OS, not mixups.
  • moocusmoocus internets? Joined: Posts: 869
    Sooo manual mixups are better than option selects. Got it.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Looks like I shut damdai up. And in the Guile thread too!!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Wait, reversal throws always win. There's no coin tossing: frame-skipping aside, the player has two guaranteed chances of escaping the OS: reversal throw or special against the meaty and reversal throw against the throw. That's the reason it does not work against better players unless you mix it up: they have good timing and reversal throw out of it.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    option select doesn't mean you always win.

    for RPS match, if you can "execute" it, you can OS rock and paper at the same time. your opponent can still do paper to "neutralize" your OS so to speak, but OS still give you a greater risk/reward ratio like damdai said.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • moocusmoocus internets? Joined: Posts: 869
    edited March 2014
    The point never was that it will always win. Of course it loses to reversal throw, which you will end up teching in the worst case scenario. Tick throws lose to reversal throws too you know. Think of it as an augmented tick throw.

    Damdai succinctly explained that in a few sentences. You guys are being dumbasses.
  • SesshomaruSesshomaru Joined: Posts: 576
    edited March 2014
    blitzfu wrote: »
    Looks like I shut damdai up. And in the Guile thread too!!
    LOL what a retard u r, u just discovered by urself some old news. I OS my dick in ur mouth n ur ass, either outcome u still get dick

  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    edited March 2014
    I think the term here is risk vs. reward. What OSs do is to help mitigate risk. It's not necessarily a win or lose scenario, it's about producing optimal results for your character, one of which includes a tech throw. This is not just a rock < paper < scissors scenario, it's about how to play both rock and paper at the same time.

    And there's a difference between 'shutting someone down' and getting 'ignored because you're retarded.'
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I was being deliberately provocative and meant no disrespect. I just wanted damdai to clarify his earlier post because I still believe it's a 50-50 chance in that situation as long as you reversal throw, and not the the huge reward that he was implying.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    And unlike one poster here, I don't just accept as truth what a top player says about the game.
    I will criticize and question it if I think it's wrong.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    edited March 2014
    blitzfu wrote: »
    I was being deliberately provocative and meant no disrespect. I just wanted damdai to clarify his earlier post because I still believe it's a 50-50 chance in that situation as long as you reversal throw, and not the the huge reward that he was implying.
    It's a 100% chance (minus frameskip) to escape. You are guaranteed to escape the meaty. If you fail, then you got another chance, when he goes for the throw. And then you have a 100% chance of escaping, given you have perfect timing.

    It's an interesting technique, which has its main advantage in forcing the enemy to attempt counter throws, which are often not as easy as specials since they don't have negative edge. But shotos, Honda, Gief, Hawk, Cammy, Fei and Dee Jay have 4 buttons for throws, which give them an acceptable chance of escaping by pianoing all those.

    You must also be careful against which character you attempt this, and where. One usually does not want to get cornered by Guile or Dee Jay, for instance. Also, Honda, Hawk and Gief have strong special throws which can be used as a reversal.

    Edit: forgot about Fei
  • SesshomaruSesshomaru Joined: Posts: 576

    Gief, Hawk, Cammy, Fei and Dee Jay have 4 buttons for throws, which give them an acceptable chance of escaping

    Gief has 6 buttons for throws
  • damdaidamdai www.damdai.com Joined: Posts: 1,079
    edited March 2014
    I didn't imply a huge reward. It's in your favor because it covers 2 scenarios for the price of 1, block and reversal special.
    Also, for characters with 2 kick and 2 punch throws, I don't believe it's possible to effectively piano them all.
    While theoretically possible, it's not practical, and shouldn't really be mentioned.

    EDIT: I just practiced a bit and it does seem possible, but I have to contort my hand in a weird way that would prevent me from doing other things quickly if the situation changed. Maybe it gets easier in practice, but I'll stick with just pianoing fierce and strong.
    supercade.damdai.com
    tonamento.damdai.com
    frame-advantage.com
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    edited March 2014
    damdai wrote: »
    Also, for characters with 2 kick and 2 punch throws, I don't believe it's possible to effectively piano them all.
    While theoretically possible, it's not practical, and shouldn't really be mentioned.

    I've ALWAYS pianoed my throw timings for characters with 2k and 2p throws. Did people really believe all this time think it was impractical? (even characters with only 2 throw buttons --chun, my main I piano my throws.)

    In fact, now that I've had exposure to vampire savour style pushblocking, I'm better at it now than I was before.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Just use whatever works. I personally just piano 2 punch buttons, but I know some people just slide fingers across all 4 throw buttons to counterthrow. Whatever floats your boat.
  • damdaidamdai www.damdai.com Joined: Posts: 1,079
    edited March 2014
    I didn't say pianoing was impractical. I said piaoning 2 punches + 2 kicks was impractical because of the button locations. In order to press each button consecutively, you must temporarily modify your natural hand position which is dangerous in such a fast paced game. But as eltrouble said, whatever works for you. Just be sure it's actually working.
    supercade.damdai.com
    tonamento.damdai.com
    frame-advantage.com
  • OrochiDemonOrochiDemon Joined: Posts: 1,540
    edited April 2014
    Why is there a black version of Guile? Does anyone know the origin story? Is it like how there were gonna be two Fei Long's, but then Steve Godard made Deejay with Guiles moves so thats why theres a black Guile?
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Why is there a black version of Guile? Does anyone know the origin story? Is it like how there were gonna be two Fei Long's, but then Steve Godard made Deejay with Guiles moves so thats why theres a black Guile?
    The story is Goddard designed him as a melee character. They ended up giving him a projectile, most likely for balance, but I think it makes some sense since all other new challengers would be melee characters, too.

    Anyway, there's a mulatto Guile since SSF2.
  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    edited August 2015
    i need some help, currently learning guile in super turbo on fightcade. How do i deal with ryu doing lk tatsu outside of my cr mk range? For ex. they would do lk tatsu, then sweep cancelled into fireball. They are at a range where they can block a flashkick in time if I go for it when i see tatsu. Looking for something to knock them out of the tatsu or some kinda punish plz help lol thanks

    Also, can I anti air early jump rh or fierce without flashkick? seems impossible
    Post edited by djdjw on
    Earned a free fightstick from that site ->... http://www.points2shop.com?ref=uin1352551523
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    djdjw wrote: »
    i need some help, currently learning guile in super turbo on fightcade. How do i deal with ryu doing lk tatsu outside of my cr mk range? For ex. they would do lk tatsu, then sweep cancelled into fireball. They are at a range where they can block a flashkick in time if I go for it when i see tatsu. Looking for something to knock them out of the tatsu or some kinda punish plz help lol thanks

    Also, can I anti air early jump rh or fierce without flashkick? seems impossible

    You can flash kick the LK tatsu if you have charge and good reactions, but that's probably a bit difficult online. If they land right in front of you, the most common punish is cr.LP or cr.MP. Anything that hits mid is able to punish tatsu on recovery. I would not use low attacks to punish, as they can block when they land, and they can uppercut it if they catch onto what you're doing.

    If you're good with your spacing and timing, you can also use Guile's backfist (forward + HP). It does an exceptional job at punish LK tatsu, but might start trading if they use HK tatsu and your timing is off.

    As far as anti-airs, you have a lot of them. The most classic Guile anti-air is a late cr.HP to punish jump ins. The timing is REALLY late, almost to the point where they're about to hit you with a jump attack while you're crouching, but it's one of his most essential anti-airs. It will most likely trade, but it trades in your favor, and gives you breathing space, so you have to be comfortable with the idea of trading hits to maintain your spacing.

    Other anti-airs are st.MP (you can do it while holding back), but has to be done early. You can also use j.HK, j.HP, neutral jump HK and HP, at a far distance you can use low attacks to anti-air like cr.MK and cr.HK. Backfist can be used as an anti-air at far distances, you can whiff a cr.strong and throw them as they land (matchup specific), etc...

    One of the great parts of ST is the amount of anti-airs you can use at a variety of ranges and timing, so feel free to experiment with them!
  • djdjwdjdjw GGPO's son Joined: Posts: 281
    edited August 2015
    Thanks a million for the reply. Also, if this is you, great games at EVO! Nice the tatsu punishing definitely helped even if i get them to block some cr jabs its worth it. As for anti airs i am getting really familiar with them but its the early jumpins. looks like they wouldnt be able to combo with anything but its not good for me if they make me block a jump. I will try to set a training dummy up and experiment. Once again thanks for the reply! Also if anyone comes across any footage of a lk tatsu being punished outside of flashkick please post for me :)
    Earned a free fightstick from that site ->... http://www.points2shop.com?ref=uin1352551523
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    djdjw wrote: »
    Thanks a million for the reply. Also, if this is you, great games at EVO! Nice the tatsu punishing definitely helped even if i get them to block some cr jabs its worth it. As for anti airs i am getting really familiar with them but its the early jumpins. looks like they wouldnt be able to combo with anything but its not good for me if they make me block a jump. I will try to set a training dummy up and experiment. Once again thanks for the reply! Also if anyone comes across any footage of a lk tatsu being punished outside of flashkick please post for me :)

    It is indeed me at Evo. Good games to you too!

    cr.jabs aren't much damage, but if you spam it right, it'll punish the tatsu. It ain't much, but damage is damage, and more importantly you get them away from you.

    Blocking jumps is generally a bad thing for Guile, since now you get put into a mixup situation. Even if they don't land the hit or get a combo, they're not free to walk up and throw you, or go low, or push you into the corner, which are generally bad things for Guile. Learning how to stand your ground and maintain your zoning pattern is a pretty important skill for Guile players to learn early on, and it's a big part of his defensive game.

    I can't recall footage of LK tatsu being punished by a flashkick, but I know for a fact that I've done it. It's not commonly seen, since flash kick has limited range, and not many Ryus just random LK tatsu when Guile has a down charge, so it's rare to see. Keep in mind that Guile's MK flash kick does a better job hitting higher up attacks than the LK flash.
  • PresidentGuile69PresidentGuile69 Joined: Posts: 4
    I hope Guile appears in Super Smash Bros for Wii U/3DS!
18910111214»
Sign In or Register to comment.