2015 UMVC3 SRK Tier/Theory Discussion. 7/10 First Page Tumblr: Power of snapback, Future power teams

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  • serpentaurusserpentaurus just watching Joined: Posts: 4,525
    -AEON- wrote: »
    I can't think of a single character that prefers Dark Hole to Cold Star as an assist. Can anyone else?

    Even characters who prefer Dorm to Ammy as a partner typically do so for other reasons.

    Nemesis, Hulk and Haggar, basically because in most matchups against the mentioned characters, the opponent is better positioned at a distance where dark hole is more effective for covering command grab stuff and approaches
    umvc3: Thor / Dr.Strange / Ammy - Thor / Dorm / Doom - Wesker / Dr.Strange / Vergil - ssf4: Vega
  • charlie88charlie88 Ya'll niggas gay. The Keving Gates kinda gay. Joined: Posts: 5,120
    Not just that but dsrk hole does more damage has a better characters overall attached to it and makes more combos extendable for a variety of characters in which ammy cannot. First one to come to mind is Dante
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  • Merkyl999xMerkyl999x Crazy X-23 Guy Joined: Posts: 2,210
    Yeah, Dante in a huge way. He doesn't need the lockdown outside of DT hi/lo strings, he mainly just needs a short burst so he can abuse his slower tools in neutral and DH definitely gives him that. I don't feel like CS gives Dante much of anything significant.
    UMvC3: Magneto(EMD)/ X-23(CS)/Dante(JS)
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  • MechWarriorMechWarrior Joined: Posts: 5,718
    -AEON- wrote: »
    I can't think of a single character that prefers Dark Hole to Cold Star as an assist. Can anyone else?

    Even characters who prefer Dorm to Ammy as a partner typically do so for other reasons.

    Nemesis, Hulk and Haggar, basically because in most matchups against the mentioned characters, the opponent is better positioned at a distance where dark hole is more effective for covering command grab stuff and approaches
    Adding on to grapplers liking DH, IIRC it's +7 or 8 on block with Dormammu on point; I forget if assists keep the same frame data as their non-assist versions(can someone deconfirm/confirm that one?)...

    ~+7 on block? That is terrifying when used in tick throw/kara throw setups, especially command grab-based ones.
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  • VASagaVASaga Not Yet Strange! Let Them Wait Joined: Posts: 1,607
    People dont think Darkhole is a more versatile lockdown & neutral assist than Coldstar?
    I mean seriously. Its not usable from far & mid range. Its only applicable from up close essentially while darkhole is usable from all 3 ranges.
    I dont understand how people can disagree with that...

    There is virtually no risk involved in calling darkhole.

    You can call darkhole, wait until the end of its active frames to put your own active frames on the screen and then at the end of your AF its ready to be called again or another assist can be called lol Its silly.
    It basically disrupts other characters neutrals with the way it lapses with cooldown.

    Its so disruptive.
    "I must have ascended to a higher plane of thinking than most because I play Dr Strange"
  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,558
    pretty sure cold star starts up slightly faster(? at least the first shot) and has more blockstun, also doesn't juggle so it's easier to convert whereas dark hole can maybe drop converts if you open them up during the last parts of the dark hole
    dark hole probably has further reach or so

    both have the same weakness of slowish startup and being non helpful vs stuff like wolverine rushing you down

    idk both of them are subpar assists, cold star is scarier if you block it for like magneto, dark hole scarier if you block it for like haggar ?? probably because it's harder to jump out of dark hole

    dormammus not really gonna be ran for his dark hole assist, and ammy could be ran for cold star as a supplemental assist for mag and viper (fast high low games) and in the anchor spot poses decent threats with ammy thc and lv3 xf. dorm probably put second for dhcing in i guess but still that assist is subpar. and both characters lose to vergil
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  • Cee DizzyCee Dizzy The shit I don't like Joined: Posts: 3,408
    VASaga wrote: »
    People dont think Darkhole is a more versatile lockdown & neutral assist than Coldstar?
    I mean seriously. Its not usable from far & mid range. Its only applicable from up close essentially while darkhole is usable from all 3 ranges.
    I dont understand how people can disagree with that...

    There is virtually no risk involved in calling darkhole.

    You can call darkhole, wait until the end of its active frames to put your own active frames on the screen and then at the end of your AF its ready to be called again or another assist can be called lol Its silly.
    It basically disrupts other characters neutrals with the way it lapses with cooldown.

    Its so disruptive.

    Cold star in neutral > Dark Hole in neutral. Outside of a few characters, cold star has better applications than Dark Hole. Cold star can be used defensively because it comes out faster than Dark Hole and ammy being in the air catches bad air dashing and allows you to combo. Dark hole comes out too slow to be better than cold star. You almost have to use it pre-emptively in neutral, and we know what can happen if you call an assist out wrong (not saying cold star has the same problem but the start up itself helps you not get blown up on reaction).

    Phantasy is 100% right about them both being subpar compared to missiles, beam, jam session, vajra, etc. But if you gotta make me choose, cold star is just the better overall assist. Dark hole has good uses though, its not useless like people here play it out to be.
    https://www.facebook.com/FGCCoble <--- Friend me https://twitter.com/CeeDizzy313 <---- Follow UMVC3: Wolverine/Doom/Vergil, Team Nemo SF4: Fei Long, Rolento Injustice: Aquamane, TTT2: AK/Heihachi, Alex/Kuma
  • Merkyl999xMerkyl999x Crazy X-23 Guy Joined: Posts: 2,210
    Can we all just agree that both are good for characters that can abuse their properties? I don't see any reason why people are spending time discussing it. Some characters use one better than other, some like the safer assist, some like the longer lockdown, some use one or the other because of character synergy rather than which assist is better in neutral.

    Character synergy has more to do with which assist they have and it's a character by character basis. Neither of the assists are so good that they're the reason you pick the character and have differing roles in neutral.



    Next question: Are any/many of you getting a chance to go to CEO next weekend? I would be cool to get games in with some of you.
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  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,558
    Cee Dizzy wrote: »
    VASaga wrote: »
    People dont think Darkhole is a more versatile lockdown & neutral assist than Coldstar?
    I mean seriously. Its not usable from far & mid range. Its only applicable from up close essentially while darkhole is usable from all 3 ranges.
    I dont understand how people can disagree with that...

    There is virtually no risk involved in calling darkhole.

    You can call darkhole, wait until the end of its active frames to put your own active frames on the screen and then at the end of your AF its ready to be called again or another assist can be called lol Its silly.
    It basically disrupts other characters neutrals with the way it lapses with cooldown.

    Its so disruptive.
    ammy being in the air catches bad air dashing and allows you to combo

    just wanna point out that your assist character being in the air is almost definitely worse than being grounded
    if they get hit by anything they fall, hard knockdown, and are OTGable. takes them longer to get up and be re-called
    with grounded assists, they can be hit by non juggle moves and not be stunned as long and get out faster
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  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    That feeling when jwong considered Cold Star the best assist in the game at one point. Probably during vanilla when they were still hosting playable demos.

    I don't think Dark Hole is as much of a big deal as others make it out to be. It's about as effective as any given lockdown/extension assist and has more to do with the character that's accompanying it. Also when weighed against the other options they're fairly limited by their situational nature. Don't get me wrong though- Purification can work with certain characters and stacked Liberation is amazing but the former is still situational and the latter is one big moneyshot before you get back to the bubble.
    Merkyl999x wrote: »
    Next question: Are any/many of you getting a chance to go to CEO next weekend? I would be cool to get games in with some of you.

    I would go but unfortunately lack the current finances to buy a plane ticket. I'd drive but I'm in SoCal and I hear horror stories about Florida.
  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    the biggest issue with ammy being in the air is definitely vs morrigan since she basically dies if you call her at the wrong time
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  • Merkyl999xMerkyl999x Crazy X-23 Guy Joined: Posts: 2,210
    edited June 2014
    I think the more important question is which DHC/THC do you want in that situation. Neither assist is the end-all be-all for every character in the game. If your character can DHC into the stalking flare followups, Dorm is an amazing damage engine. If your character can let Dorm combo off chaotic flame THC, Dorm is pretty stupid. If you have someone that can abuse Ammy Bomb or have some character with specific Veil follow-up combos, etc.

    For characters that can't abuse a longer lockdown, the difference in the assists are pretty negligible and it comes down to other synergy. If you need the lockdown for hi/low game, then CS is better for neutral, though you're most likely basing the rest of the team on the fact that you have CS to abuse ammy bomb since you don't have a damage engine behind one of your characters.
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  • serpentaurusserpentaurus just watching Joined: Posts: 4,525
    What are the differences between pre-release coldstar and ultimate coldstar? i know vanilla coldstar had unscaled hitstun so coldstar wouldnt drop far in the combo
    umvc3: Thor / Dr.Strange / Ammy - Thor / Dorm / Doom - Wesker / Dr.Strange / Vergil - ssf4: Vega
  • ZatalconZatalcon Most hated man on SRK Joined: Posts: 2,095 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    VASaga wrote: »
    People dont think Darkhole is a more versatile lockdown & neutral assist than Coldstar?
    No.

  • RokmodeRokmode preppy asked me to change my title rip meaty mud flap Joined: Posts: 8,306
    Idk I agree overall ammy is better, but that depends on how much you factor support into a tier list.
    Ammy point is actually surprisingly good with good assists. It's not reliable for fighting a lot of the cast, but ammy wins a surprising amount of matchups. (wolverine)


    I don't think ammy second is very good personally, and I think ammy is pretty much made for anchor, but point ammy is very viable when it comes to certain matchups. A lot of characters have trouble dealing with her. Just some matchups I personally like with point ammy: haggar, doom, dante, wolverine, taskmaster, nova, jill, and pretty much any other character who gets fucked by her height or has a "linear" approach. The biggest problem with ammy second is that she loses to a lot of zoning characters once they get started, so she has to come into a lot of bullshit + you don't get her for xf3. She is trouble for these characters if and once she gets in, but otherwise it can be quite tough. Such matchups include strange, hawkeye, dorm, etc. She is only slightly better at fighting these matchups than doom is except she doesn't provide plasma beam to compensate. Most ammy duos are stronger with ammy assist than she is with their assists. There are few examples where it is the other way around (ammy arthur>arthur ammy, ammy/dante>dante/ammy, some others).

    TL;DR Probably put her last unless you're fighting wolverine
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  • YazumattoYazumatto Nanomachines, son. Joined: Posts: 2,389
    Pre-release Cold Star assist was the L version. There was video of it in the dog forums a long time ago.

    I cannot begin to fathom how disgusting Cold Star L would be as an assist, especially if Ammy comes out behind the point.
    Honestly, I don't care and neither should you.
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  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    Yazumatto wrote: »
    Pre-release Cold Star assist was the L version. There was video of it in the dog forums a long time ago.

    I cannot begin to fathom how disgusting Cold Star L would be as an assist, especially if Ammy comes out behind the point.

    Remember Dante's OOOOOOLD OLD OLD OLD Million Dollars hyper? The one that lasted for literally five seconds?

    I'm still in mourning for Deadpool's I LOVE ME SOME GUN
  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,558
    edited June 2014
    Rokmode wrote: »
    Also, the fall time isn't really that big of a deal unless you suck at calling assists. Characters that are likely to hit ammy and still otg aren't going to be affected that much by the fact she has to fall. If she gets helmbreakered, not much changes because of the fact that helmbreaker brings you down so quickly. You are right that it's worse, but it's not really that big of a deal imo vs the relevant cast.
    it's not a big deal but any small advantage can turn into a big opportunity, it's marvel. literally a few extra frames of not being able to call an assist can change situations. things like hidden missiles, magblast, soul fist, unibeam, hadangeki, arrows, drones, random jabs or air normals, round trip, are all moves that can feasibly hit your assist. grounded assists don't get stunned as long. the otg isn't as big of a deal as the time to recall the assist.
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  • MechWarriorMechWarrior Joined: Posts: 5,718
    edited June 2014
    phantasy wrote: »
    it's not a big deal but any small advantage can turn into a big opportunity, it's marvel.
    I like that you touched on this.

    THE biggest strength you can have when you play this game?
    Being a complete opportunist.

    Capitalize on EVERYTHING; the more hitconfirms you succeed with, the less you have to
    get in your foe's head, and less strain on yours!
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  • ZatalconZatalcon Most hated man on SRK Joined: Posts: 2,095 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The theory thread is so next level we not only talk about stuff people don't do, we talk about stuff people can't do.

    bloggers...
  • serpentaurusserpentaurus just watching Joined: Posts: 4,525
    so i was playing some online taskmaster guy and zoning the *** out of him with Dormammu as usual, then he shield skill'd a 1D2C (meteor shower or whatever its called) then taskmaster XF'd and did another shield skill and he went through 1D2C, oo. Still bodied him but that was cool
    umvc3: Thor / Dr.Strange / Ammy - Thor / Dorm / Doom - Wesker / Dr.Strange / Vergil - ssf4: Vega
  • p0tat0 5aladp0tat0 5alad I like orange. Joined: Posts: 1,278
    edited June 2014
    Did hell freeze over? Serp giving Taskmaster props?!?
    I ran Spencer/Doom/Skrull in a tourney yesterday and got sent to losers by StaticAlpha (Viper/Doom/Strider)
    In losers I ran Spencer/Task/Skrull cause my Task is cheaper and my Doom sucks/is too honest. Reset bracket 3-1 & won 3-1. He didn't have an answer for Task/Skrull 8)
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  • tabtab the impossible dream Joined: Posts: 1,993
    idk why but i just found out that deadpool can combo off his alpha counter without xfcing as long as he does teleport. and you can do that into the basic unscale combo for 1mil alpha counter that uses no bar

    but ugh, his teleports don't reset when he tags for some retarded reason

    and my execution sucks nuts. i really wish i had good enough execution to play deadpool because i still think deadpool/nova/strider is fucking RIDICULOUS if you can meet that execution barrier
  • ChrisisChrisis Follows her path Joined: Posts: 7,684
    Which are the execution intensive elements of Deadpool that are difficult to handle?
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 58,013 mod
    The 3rd teleport always exploding.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • tabtab the impossible dream Joined: Posts: 1,993
    edited June 2014
    being able to hit the unscale 100% of the time in all the scenarios possible. including the taunt unscales

    i can hit unscales in canned situations and the canned situations apply to a lot of gameplay situations too, but not 100% of the time. more like 70% when i was practicing it hard.

    the big thing is that you have to adjust and remember the different heights for certain chars, who all happen to be top/high tier. zero and mags in particular have a lot weirder ones (you have to hit zero much lower than usual and mags much higher), but in general it's just the difficulty of getting the teleport->dash->launch exactly the same 100% of the time alongside getting the right height for the j.h bolo

    in general they're not -that- hard but it's a matter of being able to perform them in the heat of the moment alongside consistently doing them

    edit:
    also this ties into my bad execution but you 100% absolutely need to plinkdash with him because his wavedashes suckkkkk
    he cant wavedash backwards (he just does an in place wiggle) so you need to be able to plinkdash to be able to move around effectively
  • JuuMJuuM Danke where yo at Joined: Posts: 1,615
    grandpa tab
  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,916
    so i was playing some online taskmaster guy and zoning the *** out of him with Dormammu as usual, then he shield skill'd a 1D2C (meteor shower or whatever its called) then taskmaster XF'd and did another shield skill and he went through 1D2C, oo. Still bodied him but that was cool

    I have done this against all of Dorm's spells. It also works against Dante's QCF HH, which surprised me and the other guy I was playing (Cloud)
    tab wrote: »
    being able to hit the unscale 100% of the time in all the scenarios possible. including the taunt unscales

    Never in my life have I seen a Deadpool use his taunt in a serious match
  • RaohRaoh AU Spider Joined: Posts: 968
    Deadpool's back plink dash is just as bad as the wave dash, it won't get you out of any tight situation. It does look funny though.
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  • tabtab the impossible dream Joined: Posts: 1,993
    Raoh wrote: »
    Deadpool's back plink dash is just as bad as the wave dash, it won't get you out of any tight situation. It does look funny though.
    one of them moves him backwards faster than walking and one of them makes him wiggle in place and die so not really, yeah, his plinkdash is still pretty bad comparatively but consider that over 'literally nothing' and you understand why it needs to be in your options
    it's really important you can move backwards. like seriously it's really really important to be able to move backwards quickly in this game
    bloodymess wrote: »
    Never in my life have I seen a Deadpool use his taunt in a serious match

    the unscale variant combo that uses the taunt is particularly harder than the non-unscaled one because you have to hit the taunt button and assist immediately afterwards at a pretty awkward time. i ended up having to rewire one of my face buttons to taunt to make it easier but even then it was still pretty weird

  • JuuMJuuM Danke where yo at Joined: Posts: 1,615
    edited June 2014
    It starts with simple rewiring, ends with 4 extra buttons. Be careful.
  • CorkyjayCorkyjay Joined: Posts: 288
    Speaking of Crossover counters. Do you guys think crossover counters will end up being a big thing in the future of this game or will it just be one of those features that are just there only for specific characters.(Ex Jill,Sentinel ect) Because I think that beam assist might end up becoming something good to crossover counter especially on people who do like helmbreaker SHSH blockstring because a character like doom can cross over counter into plasma beam and cancel into Photon Array and then X-Factor dead vergil or cross over counter into lvl 3.Just let me know
  • Merkyl999xMerkyl999x Crazy X-23 Guy Joined: Posts: 2,210
    edited June 2014
    Alpha Counters are criminally underused imo. There are lots of situations where you can counter into super > kill or XF > kill and people aren't using them yet (even outside of the invinicible alpha counters, which are even more criminally underused.) Any of the fast startup assists like Cart, Tatsu, EMD, etc have potential for some nice reaction punishes.
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    300%, Welcome to America.
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  • STANGSTANG Joined: Posts: 1,200
    It'll be used more. Morrigan instantly comes to mind. Buckethead uses it quite a bit. It really is only a few characters that can get something significant from it.
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