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How much does your arcade stick lag? Arcade stick input lag testing & results thread

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  • DarksakulDarksakul I find your lack of Faith Disturbing. Joined: Posts: 25,090
    or maybe say less than 1ms of lag, sub 1ms or something to that effect.

    There alot of "Nanoseconds" between your stick and the console
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • undamnedundamned Wake up! Time to die! Joined: Posts: 1,687
    Darksakul wrote: »
    or maybe say less than 1ms of lag, sub 1ms or something to that effect.
    Where do you get 1ms from? bInterval for "Full" speed HID devices can't be less than 1ms (and I don't believe any "High" speed controllers even exist). @Lance3rd‌ nailed it. This test method is incapable of detecting the actual lag of the "control" sticks.
    -ud

  • DarksakulDarksakul I find your lack of Faith Disturbing. Joined: Posts: 25,090
    edited July 2014
    undamned wrote: »
    Darksakul wrote: »
    or maybe say less than 1ms of lag, sub 1ms or something to that effect.
    Where do you get 1ms from? bInterval for "Full" speed HID devices can't be less than 1ms (and I don't believe any "High" speed controllers even exist). @Lance3rd‌ nailed it. This test method is incapable of detecting the actual lag of the "control" sticks.
    -ud
    I was not serious there when I said 1ms, I didn't want to use 0ms as we all agree it is inaccurate.
    And I don't want to give any more support to Teyah's claims about this whole lag testing nonsense.
    :coffee:
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,972
    Darksakul wrote: »
    ..
    And I don't want to give any more support to Teyah's claims about this whole lag testing nonsense.
    :coffee:

    At minimum, it's a legitimate concern. I would much rather see it addressed sensibly and accurately. In that sense, the biggest missing piece is checking how much the lag affects gameplay. (I really don't think that 3ms is likely to have a significant impact.)
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • RoboKrikitRoboKrikit nuclear Joined: Posts: 1,943
    I think we all get that the +0.00ms is the reference stick. Faster than reference would be a negative number, or the reference and other values would have to shift. I agree it's misleading to call it "lagless" even though the quotes and context should be a dead giveaway.
    Rufus wrote: »
    In that sense, the biggest missing piece is checking how much the lag affects gameplay. (I really don't think that 3ms is likely to have a significant impact.)

    Maybe we can save that for a rainy day.
  • CaganCagan Joined: Posts: 397
    3ms and nearly 16ms are two very different numbers.
  • TRiXWoNTRiXWoN Solder Soldier in the 6 Button Army Joined: Posts: 1,070
    Also isn't it just "how much does your arcade stick lag (compared to the VX-SA)"? Both Undamned and Teyah's tests mean something. Teyah's just have a lot more variables that can introduce doubt and confusion. Undamned's test with the Oscope are the only ones that the stick manufacturers can do anything about.
    ::Mod till your heart's content::
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,669
    TRiXWoN wrote: »
    Also isn't it just "how much does your arcade stick lag (compared to the VX-SA)"? Both Undamned and Teyah's tests mean something. Teyah's just have a lot more variables that can introduce doubt and confusion. Undamned's test with the Oscope are the only ones that the stick manufacturers can do anything about.

    Not quite. UD-CPS2 shows raw PCB performance because it ignores requested polling rates. If a stick lags more heavily on console than on UD-CPS2 you should probably lower the requested polling rate of the stick.
    Steam/Fightcade:Coffeeling
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  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    we're still missing similar tests done by other people on the same boards to see if results come out the same :/

    even though undamned used an oscilloscope, its still difficult to tell if the lag time difference between boards for x360 is consistent (360 PS360+ vs the other 2 tests which were both PS3). At least it more or less confirms Madcatz PS3 Fight Stick Pro isn't really the best option - Teyah used a formula based on how many wins/ties/losses to determine approx how much lag it has which can skew results heavily down vs the actual oscilloscope result of almost 1f. Also kinda brings in the discussion of whether or not ps3 just polls at a higher rate than 360, and therefore the inherent input delay people noticed between 360 and ps3 is really ps3 just straight up adding x frames of lag
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Tests take time to set up. There might be one in the upcoming future. We'll see.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • lamhazaartlamhazaart Joined: Posts: 91
    edited July 2014
    Stick lag testing is absolutely a worthy task, and again I'm grateful since this is the first and only resource out there that even touches on the idea of it. However, I do agree with some criticisms.

    Labelling a stick "lagless" seems like bad practice. For one, it doesn't take into account the polling rates of each system. You could give a range of lag depending on the polling rates for each console, which would represent real world lag. For example, if the 360 polled at 125hz, the lag for a certain stick would vary by 7-8ms, so for instance the HRAP VX-SA would be +~1.00ms to +8.00ms. And for another, how much lag is +0ms? The "0" might mean 20 on the 360, and 1 on the PS3. It certainly means that you can't use these results to answer the question asked in the very title of this thread, though the question has more issues that that. The problem, like Undamned says, is that the goal you're setting out to achieve doesn't correlate with your results. According to the current results table, the real question should be "how much total lag is there in a certain game on a certain console using different arcade sticks, relative to the fastest arcade stick on each console, ignoring polling rate?", which is quite different from "how much does your arcade stick lag?". And it shouldn't be implied that the numbers are directly indicative of design faults in the sticks, since there are more variables than stick design in your methodology.

    I understand that what you're trying to do is test real world lag, in which case it seems like all you need to do is reword your premise. However, the current results table seems a bit lacking. The slowest stick in the 360 table could be anywhere from 12.5ms to 19.5ms (let's say), in addition to whatever the control value is. Right now, the results don't tell you if that stick lags by one frame, two frames, or even ten frames. Factoring in console lag and game lag is perfectly fine, since that's your intention. But I think it would be an improvement if you removed the polling rate and "lagless" control variables, perhaps by subjecting your control sticks to a similar methodology as the one Undamned used.
    Post edited by lamhazaart on
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,972
    undamned wrote: »
    Not sure if this is the best place to discuss this as it doesn't really have to do with Teyah's test methodology, but I'll shoot:

    I'm curious if there was much thought put into the polling rates defined in the USB descriptors for these controllers. ...

    I expect that the most time intensive thing that happens on the stick is the USB protocol or the encryption BS. The USB clock runs at 6 Mhz, so even on a SNES style bus, reading the buttons should take microseconds.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • CaganCagan Joined: Posts: 397
    I am really appreciative of this thread. If it wasn't for the thread I would just think that something with the PS360+ was off and maybe mine specifically was broken. I'd go through the motions of trying to figure it out and replacing it with a different one only to have the same issue. This thread has caused me to order a Paewang, which I've confirmed with eTokki no longer has the issues that caused it to get stuck between systems and have inputs occasionally go out (very rare issue but it happened). The Paewang seems like the simplest way to get all 3 major systems working. Its probably a quarter as hard to set up as a padhack + cerebus or cthulu and there's documented data that it works great. That and I doubt most cases have the room for a padhack, cerebus, imp, and crossbone / xbox 1 padhack. With the Paewang you could throw in an xbox 1 solution and be okay. Granted, if they release another PS360+ that fixes the xbox 360 issues and offers (non laggy) xbox 1 and ps4 support then I can just as easily switch out to a new PS360+. However, I'm sure as heck not going to wait for something that hasn't even been announced yet.

    Just something to consider for those who are worrying.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Dude how much experience have you had with a PS360+? None? Then how would you know it's off?
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • CaganCagan Joined: Posts: 397
    edited July 2014
    I know that when I move on the ps360+ it feels like walking in mud compared to moving on my madcatz pad. I set them both up in training mode and its night and day.

    EDIT: That's on xbox. On PS3 its amazing. I've heard the same thing about it on PC but I can't get my PC to register it as anything other than unknown device so I can't tell for myself.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Oh really which game are you testing it on in PS3?

    I'm willing to bet you'd fail a double blind test. The only reason you think you know is from placebo.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • pzlatepzlate When's Breakers Joined: Posts: 929
    I honestly think you're just psyching yourself out. You're actively trying to look for lag.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    The funny thing would be if he's playing SF4 training on PS3. Inherent 1 frame extra lag over Xbox would be equal (possibly even slower) to Xbox + PS360+ in Xbox mode. Oh but it's so much faster right?
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • gahrlinggahrling Better safe than Hori.. Joined: Posts: 3,968
    Cagan wrote: »
    This thread has caused me to order a Paewang, which I've confirmed with eTokki no longer has the issues that caused it to get stuck between systems and have inputs occasionally go out (very rare issue but it happened).


    Do you have any evidence to back that statement up? From what I've seen there hasn't been any Paewang board revisions since they first came out, and the problem you mentioned above is much more common than "very rare". The fact you can't update the firmware also goes against them, and they don't have auto-detect..
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    remember that part where we were thinking "let's save that argument for a rainy day"

    how about we actually do that
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,669
    I want some rain ixgr.png
    This heat is killing me.
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    Xrd: ? | ST: Claw, Ryu, O.Sagat | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
  • KensouLKensouL Joined: Posts: 11
    are news for HORI RAP VX-SA "KAI"?
  • DarksakulDarksakul I find your lack of Faith Disturbing. Joined: Posts: 25,090
    KensouL wrote: »
    are news for HORI RAP VX-SA "KAI"?
    Say what?
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • PinoyPrydePinoyPryde Rhythmic Button Mashing Joined: Posts: 1,184
    I am completely unaware that there was a new build of the PS360+...
    I mash buttons and stomp my feet to music

    Steam ID/PSN: ArcadeStatic
  • kombatmedikkombatmedik Joined: Posts: 129
    There was a new firmware posted up last week or so, the one that gives PS4 compatibility for 8 minutes at a time.
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Oh, this new build of the PS360+ isn't a firmware update. It's a new hardware configuration. Not sure on when it will be released / sold to the public.
    I see in frames IRL
  • PresidentCamachoPresidentCamacho Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Joined: Posts: 3,474
    I'm sure all the attention this thread got played large role in motivating akishop to get on this problem with a renewed sense of urgency.

    Despite the over reactions of some, I'm glad this thread will likely ensure that latency is taken into greater consideration in new boards.
    Play Crimzon Clover, or go to hell.
  • CaganCagan Joined: Posts: 397
    edited July 2014
    Well I got my Paewang in the mail today. My original plan was to wait until the end of the month to see if Akishop would have a firmware update out that would fix the xbox 360 issues. I'll have my paewang installed probably a solid few months before I could have even gotten the new ps360+ that isn't even as good for the console(s) I care about. I'm glad as hell that I said screw it a week or so ago and just ordered the paewang.

    Also, do you know if Akishop is planning on updating the new build anymore? Or is that their final product to go to production? Maybe they wanted you to test it so they could see how much it lagged so they could continue working on it?
  • undamnedundamned Wake up! Time to die! Joined: Posts: 1,687
    Changes look great, @Teyah‌. Thanks for not only having thick skin but actually listening to your critics. Your willingness to listen and make reasonable changes tells me that you truly want to present a credible study and not just generate hype/drama.
    -ud
  • GummoGummo Can We Mod It? Yes, We Can! Joined: Posts: 5,530
    I'm sure all the attention this thread got played large role in motivating akishop to get on this problem with a renewed sense of urgency.

    Despite the over reactions of some, I'm glad this thread will likely ensure that latency is taken into greater consideration in new boards.
    I highly doubt it. Pretty sure it was a different thread.
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  • CaganCagan Joined: Posts: 397
    edited July 2014
    Well I'll say one thing. I just got the paewang installed in my stick by Kakita Jamie and it is much, much, much better on xbox 360. Its like I went from walking to flying. Seriously

    Everything just feels more fluid. Combos are easier. Everything is easier.
  • CaganCagan Joined: Posts: 397
    edited July 2014
    Hey man, I just love kittens. Is that so bad?

    I know this isn't scientific but when I have the madcatz joystick (TE-S) and my paewang next to eachother and I hit the LP with two characters next to each other the paewang gets the counter hit pretty much every time. I even switched hands for the button. Its a lot faster. Also - its super easy to switch between consoles. It doesn't auto detect between 360 and ps3 but who cares? My recommendation - if you use xbox 360 primarily then use the paewang. If you use PS3 and never xbox then don't bother with it and do the ps360+. If you use both, go with the paewang. When I compare the paewang to the xbox 360 controller there is no difference (if anything paewang is faster). When I compare it to the ps3 controller it seems the ps3 controller is a little quicker. If I never turned on the ps3 controller I would have never noticed anything. I also remember doing these tests with the ps360+. PS360+ vs xbox controller the xbox controller was substantially faster. I didn't really believe the numbers in this test until I tried that. I noticed that the ps360+ felt a little 'off' but I couldn't put my finger on it until I compared it to my madcatz fightpad and 360 controller. Now, when I compared the ps360+ to a ps3 controller, they were the same. It works great on ps3.

    I think modders should start carrying the paewang instead of the ps360+. Granted, if akishop releases a new ps360+ that fixes some of these issues (especially the double input issue on xbox 360) then I'm sure everyone will carry that. The ps360+ really is so easy to install. No soldering is nice to have, but soldering to the paewang seemed easy enough (I was watching).

    Also, for anyone looking to use the paewang: The diagram on the website is backwards for the start / select/ home / turbo buttons. The ground is on the left, not the right. (I think - @Kakitajamie‌ was saying it was backwards last night). He's an electrical engineer and I guess since the diagram is ambiguous he decided to check with a multimeter.

    Just my two cents - for whatever its worth (not much).
    Post edited by Cagan on
  • RoboKrikitRoboKrikit nuclear Joined: Posts: 1,943
    Cagan wrote: »
    Hey man, I just love kittens. Is that so bad?

    Sorry, I couldn't resist the Fight Club quote, it just sounded so much like it. :)
  • CaganCagan Joined: Posts: 397
    I know. I was just messing with you. The important question really is..... do you love kittens?
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,669
    The Darksakul disagrees are hilarious. omg someone is buying a faster board for their stick. The inhumanity, right?
    Steam/Fightcade:Coffeeling
    Xrd: ? | ST: Claw, Ryu, O.Sagat | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
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