The System Mechanics Thread

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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    edited February 2014
    Yeah but deshiken is hitting the character while they are dashing.
    Not post dash.
    also my guess as to why far strong? super link, covers a good area, can turn into a relatively safe tc if he does it late, much faster recovery than something like low forward meaning no one is going to run in after he whiffs it and punish it.

    Most everyone is going to go from f>f to downback so they are blocking low as soon as the dash animation is finished.

    Hugo is one of the characters with the most to gain from dashing and then chancing a parry. It isn't surprising that hayao has a strong grasp of the timing/spacing to use it effectively.
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  • NoMoreFunlandNoMoreFunland Perfection equals obliteration! Joined: Posts: 1,229
    edited February 2014
    There is a timing that allows you to either super off TC or far st.mp with the same action.

    Also
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  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    The cool down window doesn't reset when you transition from jumping to grounded.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    That's because 3rd Strike sucks. :)
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  • CHNchilla89CHNchilla89 Joined: Posts: 964
    Can someone give me a quick refresher on how crouching state and counterhits affect frame data? I know that you can get more frames to work with if you hit a crouching opponent but is there any concrete pattern to it or is it calculated on a normal by normal basis? Same with counterhits
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  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    @CHNchilla89‌ there is no exact pattern for how much extra hit stun you get for hitting an opponent while crouching. It varies on the move, but hitting them while crouching will always produce more hit stun (99% sure, there may be a few exceptions?)

    counter hits don't change the hit stun frame data the way it does in cvs2(?), and sf4. unlike those games, there aren't combos you can only do on counter hit. there are however combos you can only do if you trade (because you recover from the move quicker), but these are situational.

    In 3rd strike the character takes more damage when they get crouching (1.25 more). The 1.25 rule can apply to chip damage in certain situations/moves but that's beyond the scope of your question.

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  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    Which characters can do non-meaty UOH - Super ? Like where the opponent is crouching and from a certain distance you do a UOH and combo into a super.

    Is there any write about that?
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  • GaijinblazeGaijinblaze fingerlicans Joined: Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    yuuki wrote: »
    @CHNchilla89‌ there is no exact pattern for how much extra hit stun you get for hitting an opponent while crouching. It varies on the move, but hitting them while crouching will always produce more hit stun (99% sure, there may be a few exceptions?)

    counter hits don't change the hit stun frame data the way it does in cvs2(?), and sf4. unlike those games, there aren't combos you can only do on counter hit. there are however combos you can only do if you trade (because you recover from the move quicker), but these are situational.

    In 3rd strike the character takes more damage when they get crouching (1.25 more). The 1.25 rule can apply to chip damage in certain situations/moves but that's beyond the scope of your question.
    the frame data does show some trends. block advantage, hit advantage, and cr hit advantage usually show a relationship like this:

    light normals: x, x, x
    medium: x, x+1, x+2
    heavy: x, x+2, x+4

    so generally, light normals dont add additional stun depending on hit state, and the heavier the move, the more of a difference there tends to be. there are many exceptions though. and im guessing specials and supers were designed on a move by move basis.
    Which characters can do non-meaty UOH - Super ? Like where the opponent is crouching and from a certain distance you do a UOH and combo into a super.

    Is there any write about that?

    those two situations are exactly the same, except that the super needs more range to compensate for the required spacing in a non-meaty setup. you can probably guess which ones. ken, chun, dudley, most projectile supers, etc. basically anything that isnt a point blank-only move like shinsho.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    edited March 2014
    i feel like you might be able to connect with shinsho vs some/most characters even.
    i might have to try that later.

    also ya gaijin i was actually working on a per character per move strength calculation of damage to stun ratio.
    and also avg move strength damage per character comparisons.

    there are some neat trends.
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  • AlexisdabombAlexisdabomb Joined: Posts: 2,528
    So, weird thing I notice with Dud (haven't tried this with the shoto's at the moment) and I'm not a Dud master by any stretch but I think I'm almost decent with him. I was practicing landing t.MK into his SRK. And the weird thing I notice is that if I'm holding toward the entire time, hit MK, then QCF and Fierce I get my combo no problem. I launch them and do the same thing and I get my combo too. But, if I jump in and hit 'em with HK or HP (either meaty) while still holding forward, I get my t.MK but I will not get the SRK. Instead, after I land the jump in I have to go neutral and then hold toward and MK and then QCF Fierce to get the combo. What is it about jumping that resets the input? Because I can empty jump EX SRK no problem.
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  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    edited March 2014
    So, weird thing I notice with Dud (haven't tried this with the shoto's at the moment) and I'm not a Dud master by any stretch but I think I'm almost decent with him. I was practicing landing t.MK into his SRK. And the weird thing I notice is that if I'm holding toward the entire time, hit MK, then QCF and Fierce I get my combo no problem. I launch them and do the same thing and I get my combo too. But, if I jump in and hit 'em with HK or HP (either meaty) while still holding forward, I get my t.MK but I will not get the SRK. Instead, after I land the jump in I have to go neutral and then hold toward and MK and then QCF Fierce to get the combo. What is it about jumping that resets the input? Because I can empty jump EX SRK no problem.

    Basically, the reason is because the game registers all diagonals as a towards/away input for moves (not parries), so since you already used up the towards input for the Shoryu/Upper in the jump, the D,DF doesn't complete the motion according to the engine. You can get it to come out without going neutral by doing something like : UF, F, DF, D, DF, D, DF+P, but that's overly complicated and risks a potential super coming out.

    Funny little input to do for jump in Shoryu/Upper/Fuki/DPs : U, UF, D, DF+P/K lol

    This is also why QCF walking prevents Shoryu's and the reason why Shoryu's can't be chained into another Shoryu, like : F, D, DF, (F)+P, D, DF+P.
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    edited April 2014
    Why is short short with Yun not 100% consistent???

    Meaning why isn't it just like shoto short short?
  • jblairjblair Joined: Posts: 1,447
    edited April 2014
    I believe it is because you are cancelling the recovery of the short into another short, similar to how a kazuya bomb works. And by that I mean it isn't a legit chain like short short or strong fierce. Try ibuki short short. It makes everyone cry I guess.
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    Game restaurant lists it as chains into itself so I don't think thats the case.
  • jblairjblair Joined: Posts: 1,447
    ryan. wrote: »
    Game restaurant lists it as chains into itself so I don't think thats the case.

    If it isn't the case then the only explanation is that the window for inputting the second short is much smaller. I stand by my explanation. Out of curiosity, does it list ibuki short short as chaining into itself?

  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    It better not
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    toward short short chains into itself doe
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  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    ryan. wrote: »
    Why is short short with Yun not 100% consistent???

    Meaning why isn't it just like shoto short short?

    Even though it's technically a self cancel, you should look at short short from Yun more like a link, because although the the frame data suggests that it has a 5 frame window compared to Ken's 8, in reality, short short with Yun is only a 2 frame window, and short short with Ken is has a 10 frame window..... Unlike Ken's, you cannot buffer in Yun's short's during the hitting animation, meaning you have to delay it significantly over what's shown in frame data in order to combo.
    --
    In comparison, for both Ibuki's Short x2 and Mak's Jab x2, the self cancel window is two frames. However, because of the hitstun and startup of Ibuki's short, the window for doing short short for her is 1 frame, but Mak's is 2 frames.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    Here's the cancel info on hit from esn's site for ken:
    Here it is for yun:
    The difficulty probably depends on the size of the "sc" (self cancel) window.
  • TiredOceanTiredOcean Low-tier theory fighter Joined: Posts: 134
    edited June 2014
    I hope that this is the right place to post this but I made a thread about how to block Urien's unblockables here.
    It would be great if someone could perform some testing to see if the info is correct or not - I'd like to correct any mistakes I might have made.
    *cough*Telesniper please help *cough*
  • HelloWorldHelloWorld Joined: Posts: 23
    Was floating around a Japanese 3s site that's more than likely been referenced here in the past (http://gr.qee.jp/01_3rd/index.html), and upon examining its section on juggling I realized that the juggling post on the first page of this thread is a bit... imprecise. Maybe not inaccurate for most situations, but apparently not a complete description assuming the Japanese site is correct.

    Perhaps a newer post on these forums has been written since then to reflect (or refute) this? Apologies if so; I haven't seen it.


    Video that illustrates this "Window for Possible Follow-up Strike."
  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    Why does it feel like someone can tap down all day (down-parry fishing) to much more success than tapping forward?

    I know that more attacks can be parried low, but is the missed-parry recovery period higher for tapping down? For some reason I feel like if I waddle back and forward, the chances of getting a parry is far less than tapping down
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  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    Down and forward parry is the same window. 10 frame window and the recovery (where you can attempt a parry again) is longer. this 10 frame window gets cut off short when you don't return the stick to neutral or input the stick into another direction.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    edited July 2014
    so you're saying it's just the nature of tapping forward vs tapping down?
    like that as a player we might linger on forward every so slightly more when tapping forward as opposed to down?

    and so we might lose a frame or so more often on forward than down parries?

    down parry is always the same for your hand no matter your orientation also.
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  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    HelloWorld wrote: »
    Was floating around a Japanese 3s site that's more than likely been referenced here in the past (http://gr.qee.jp/01_3rd/index.html), and upon examining its section on juggling I realized that the juggling post on the first page of this thread is a bit... imprecise. Maybe not inaccurate for most situations, but apparently not a complete description assuming the Japanese site is correct.

    Ah, so THAT's where Game Restaurant went! When I wrote those posts near the beginning of this thread a billion years ago, my information came from them. I'm sure a lot more about the system was discovered since then on their Youtube videos. If anyone that knows Japanese would like to translate the new info, be my guest.
  • HelloWorldHelloWorld Joined: Posts: 23
    Jinrai wrote: »
    Ah, so THAT's where Game Restaurant went! When I wrote those posts near the beginning of this thread a billion years ago, my information came from them. I'm sure a lot more about the system was discovered since then on their Youtube videos. If anyone that knows Japanese would like to translate the new info, be my guest.

    My Japanese is pretty awful, but I do have a patchwork-like understanding of what's going on through what I've read/experimented with. I'll put together something that hopefully others can verify/authenticate/yell at for being unreadable.

  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    I finally get why Sggk works and the input. But when is a good time to do it? After throwing an enemy? Also cant they hit you with s.lp or s.mp (something that has to be parried high) or will the kara throw eat that up
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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,885 mod
    use sggk if your opponent is using crouch tech to defend against throws
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  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    I think it's not that good. beats one thing, loses to several other things. yeah like pherai said it blows up crouch tech but that's the only big use for it. and there's other other solutions to crouch tech. heck you can just walk up and fish low if you expect crouch tech and blow them up without making as definite a commitment to one option.

    also I think it's a marker of 3s game knowledge posers lol. every internet guy who wants to prove he knows about 3s will always name drop SGGK or make Chun back fierce jokes. pretty lame!
  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    Isnt it good for getting out supers on the opponent? Like get within throw range and then if the normal hits, do the super? A lot of advance players I know mention that its important to learn. The only thing I dont like it is the timing of it is pretty strict and you have to execute it right everytime to uield good results.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    parry itself isn't a 'solution' in 3S. you parry something, the situation has changed but there are so many possibilities depending on character and what was parried.
    so you parry and then do close roundhouse or something (part of your sggk), oops the other guy expecting it did something and beats the roundhouse.

    so really if you just paid attention, parried, waited for parry freeze, and then did stuff in response, you would be much better off than guessing using sggk. you would see what you parried specifically and know what the options are for your opponent. so you could make a guess with as much information as possible.
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  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    edited August 2014
    Technically you can use SGGK outside of beating crouch tech.

    Inputting SGGK for jump ins or divekicks you'll get Kara throw for empty jump ins/divekicks OR parry + normal move coming out if you parry the divekick or jump in.

    I haven't practiced it and don't use it. Gesu yarou told me he does that for jump ins sometimes and in a Kuroda + nuki commentary video they brought it up for an option dealing with empty or low-ankle-hitting divekicks. not sure how common it is (guessing not very commonly used) or how often people who might use it go for this. Some players like KO don't use techniques at all or often so...
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    that's a really good way of using it. hadn't thought of that situation before, that's one where it makes a lot of sense, especially because of how tricky the spacing can be with divekicks. need to try and remember that next time i play yang/yun.
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  • jblairjblair Joined: Posts: 1,447
    Other people use it in scramble situations like if an opponent is somewhere between -1 and +1 and also in your face. It's a time to make a quick guess I suppose.
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,885 mod
    ha thats clever! funny cause i used to use crouch tech to defend against empty dive kicks. thats quite a bit better
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  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    Tebbo wrote: »
    parry itself isn't a 'solution' in 3S. you parry something, the situation has changed but there are so many possibilities depending on character and what was parried.
    so you parry and then do close roundhouse or something (part of your sggk), oops the other guy expecting it did something and beats the roundhouse.

    so really if you just paid attention, parried, waited for parry freeze, and then did stuff in response, you would be much better off than guessing using sggk. you would see what you parried specifically and know what the options are for your opponent. so you could make a guess with as much information as possible.

    But how much time do you really have to "wait" and see the parry freeze, realize it's a ken multi hit dragon punch and remember not to hit a button? In theory it sounds

    Are we hating on it because its pretty much guessing? I know people who throw out mix up block strings, where they know it's likely to hit if the opponent presses a button. More often than not theyre scoring free hits

    A pro player Im talking to his twitter mentioned SGGK is important for higher levels. Im surprised less people are using it. Sure its an OS and semi-cheap, but it takes time to learn the input/timing.
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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,885 mod
    its importance is gonna be largely a matter of opinion. personally i think people who don't play chun aren't noticeably hindered without it.

    personally i always felt kind of stupid sacrificing goukis regular kara throw range to do sggk with mk. i would use jiro demon sggk but its very difficult execution
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    Not hating on it, just you have better options usually.
    It's pretty beast with chun though, definitely. like pherai is saying i think outside of chun it becomes less useful/impactful.

    as for parry freeze, you have plenty of time to see the freeze and react.
    it's equivalent to seeing some of the overhead normals in the game.
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  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    It has uses but I think how important it is is overstated. And you have to realize you are giving up other opportunities if you commit to it. Remember all you get is throw if they do nothing. You only get super if they wakeup with crouch tech or mashing low buttons.
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