Measuring GGPOFBA Micro Stutter

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  • dialupsuckydialupsucky FINAL SHOWDOWN Joined: Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited May 2014
    Been a few months since I posted any new ideas on how to get ggpo to work on windows 8 yet? Im thinking I may just have to give up the idea of ever playing online again. Tried to play again and its just fucking awful... Super pixly all jacked up, and the lag delay is just awful. Getting hit by jump random jump ins cant even block let alone try to do moves. Bad enough I had to play with a broken controller the before.. Time to retire for good at this rate lol Its like even small pings are not equivalent too 200+ it feels liek at least.
  • JedahsMinistryJedahsMinistry BattousaiCV Joined: Posts: 542
    Dual boot to XP and hope it's not as bad, since video card support of older DirectX calls seems to be a major factor in whether and how much it'll skip frames.
    Gettysburg, PA
    Netplay Poverty - http://www.twitch.tv/randomalt
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  • dialupsuckydialupsucky FINAL SHOWDOWN Joined: Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Doesnt that work the opposite way though? Like when I had windows vista I could easily run things in XP or whatever.. But this isnt like vista or XP that I put windows 8 on to go back... I got a new cpu and its just windows 8 period. So when I try to change the operating system the only thing I have period on this cpu that I can use is windows 8. Before I could do something but not now. At least that im aware and have tried/fiddled with. =[
  • JedahsMinistryJedahsMinistry BattousaiCV Joined: Posts: 542
    It's still possible, but it might take a bit of time to set up. You'd need a new partition for XP and a bootloader like EasyBCD (free version), as well as making sure there are even drivers for your stuff on XP.
    https://neosmart.net/wiki/easybcd/dual-boot/windows-xp/installing-second/
    Gettysburg, PA
    Netplay Poverty - http://www.twitch.tv/randomalt
    X-Men COTA and stuff - http://www.youtube.com/user/BattousaiCV
    Blurbs about games - http://twitter.com/BattousaiCV
  • dialupsuckydialupsucky FINAL SHOWDOWN Joined: Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    hrmm ill have to look into it. Thanks dudes... What are the chances that ggpo ever gets updated just to work correctly with newer stuff? lol Actually saying that do games play alright on supercade? I actually havnt even tried now that I think about it... *rubs chin*
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,837
    I've been on Linux for about half a year now and haven't played GGPO or Supercade in a while, but when I was using Supercade on Windows it was working a lot better for me.
  • JedahsMinistryJedahsMinistry BattousaiCV Joined: Posts: 542
    Supercade isn't bad, but it's still an old version of Finalburn without the Win7 fixes, tests above show similar skipping problems.

    The best chance for any progress these days is for someone to take ShobuNetwork (like Jed mentioned) and put it in a modern FinalBurn to see how it runs.
    https://github.com/rcmagic/ShobuNetwork/


    Gettysburg, PA
    Netplay Poverty - http://www.twitch.tv/randomalt
    X-Men COTA and stuff - http://www.youtube.com/user/BattousaiCV
    Blurbs about games - http://twitter.com/BattousaiCV
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    Supercade isn't bad, but it's still an old version of Finalburn without the Win7 fixes, tests above show similar skipping problems.


    That's interesting. I wonder why Damdai hasn't upgraded it? Is he even aware there's an issue?
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    Fightcade/USF2: x64
  • JedahsMinistryJedahsMinistry BattousaiCV Joined: Posts: 542
    He may not be aware, although Damdai likely has just moved on and only keeps up the server. For the longest time, people refused to even believe this was an issue and just claimed it was scrubs whining until there was a way to show the hard data.
    Gettysburg, PA
    Netplay Poverty - http://www.twitch.tv/randomalt
    X-Men COTA and stuff - http://www.youtube.com/user/BattousaiCV
    Blurbs about games - http://twitter.com/BattousaiCV
  • isamuisamu Joined: Posts: 435
    Interesting
    Dungeon Fighter Online, Elsword, Dragon's Crown, Streets of Rage Remake, Open BOR...it's great to be an old school Beat'em Up fan in 2014 :)
  • delatroydelatroy My Blue Boat Joined: Posts: 293
    That's interesting. I wonder why Damdai hasn't upgraded it? Is he even aware there's an issue?

    He knows but can't expect anything especially when he's done so much already.
  • DuffmanDuffman Joined: Posts: 5
    You can sort of solve this. Disable global v-sync if you have it and turn off aero for ggpofba (you can set it in compatibility settings).
    The fix is to limit fps 2 frames below your refresh rate. So 58 for 60 hz. You can do it with Nvidia inspector or RadeonPro software.
    h0x0m90wywp9.png
    As you can see, there is ocassional jumps in framerate, but otherwise, the is no stutter and controls feel way more responsive, pretty much solved input lag for me.
  • dialupsuckydialupsucky FINAL SHOWDOWN Joined: Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    well guys I got another question, for some reason windows 8 now auto updated to windows 8.1. I kept telling it no, but I guess eventually after a few months it wouldnt take no for answer and I woke up yesterday with well.. windows 8.1. So the problem well... No controller works on ggpo, or supercade, finalburn alpha whatever anymore. It just doesnt recoginze anything and says all the buttons are being pressed down even when im not. Im about to just delete everything and reinstall but assuming that doesnt work any other ideas? Thanks
  • antervudantervud Joined: Posts: 59
    edited November 2014
    Post edited by antervud on
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    edited March 2015
    In ggpofba.ini (it's in the config folder), there's a parameter called "bForce60Hz", which defaults to 1. I changed it to 0, restarted GGPOFBA and I could swear the inputs feel a bit smoother, by maybe one or two frames. I need someone else to try this and see if they see something similar...

    //EDIT: Should mention this is with Video Blitter set as "Enhanced (Direct3D 7)"
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

    www.youtube.com/Guoguodi
    GGPO Handle: Gizzle
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    edited March 2015
    Duffman wrote: »
    You can sort of solve this. Disable global v-sync if you have it and turn off aero for ggpofba (you can set it in compatibility settings).
    The fix is to limit fps 2 frames below your refresh rate. So 58 for 60 hz. You can do it with Nvidia inspector or RadeonPro software.
    h0x0m90wywp9.png
    As you can see, there is ocassional jumps in framerate, but otherwise, the is no stutter and controls feel way more responsive, pretty much solved input lag for me.

    So I recently upgraded to Windows 8.1 (previously using XP), and noticed the horrible frameskip and feeling of input lag. Downloaded nVidia Inspector and set it to limit fps to 58, and it actually works! Feels pretty much like XP - a lot smoother. The only weird thing is that occasionally the sound distorts, but I'm not sure if that's related or not. Also it seems that you can't really disable Aero on Win 8.1 anymore, or at least it isn't as straightforward as it was on Win7.

    //EDIT: It only works well offline unfortunately. When playing online (e.g. FightCade) if you limit FPS to 58 or 59, you'll get micro desyncs every few seconds against the opponent as presumably they are running at 60 fps. It introduces a lot of stutter/lag which is obviously bad. I think it's really unfortunate that we're still stuck with this old FBA version. Personally the only way I'd enjoy FightCade is if I dual boot with XP, which is a hassle and your average user isn't going to bother.

    //EDIT2: I found a way to disable DWM (Desktop Window Manager aka Aero) on Windows 8.1, which greatly improves the feeling of input lag. I'm not sure about Windows 7 since you can just disable Aero, but in Windows 8 the Aero functionality is built in and can't be disabled at all. The only way to do it is a hack where you replace the 'dwm.exe' in C:\Windows\System32 with a dummy version. The drawback is that things like the taskbar, start menu and login screen won't work anymore as they just become black spots on the screen. I have a toggle script that I use when I load up FightCade that disables DWM and I'm good to go. Then when I'm done playing I run the toggle script to reset the DWM back to the original version, log out, and the start menu (etc) works again. I'm not sure if it's worth publicising this "hack" as there's a chance it could screw up your Windows, but it works for me and allows for much smoother/less lag when playing. PM me I guess if you want info on how to do this. Overall I don't think I'd still play if I was stuck with the horrible frameskip and lag FBA has on Windows 8.1 by default, so I'm glad I found this hack.
    Post edited by BoggleMinds on
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

    www.youtube.com/Guoguodi
    GGPO Handle: Gizzle
  • JedahsMinistryJedahsMinistry BattousaiCV Joined: Posts: 542
    edited April 2015
    //EDIT: It only works well offline unfortunately. When playing online (e.g. FightCade) if you limit FPS to 58 or 59, you'll get micro desyncs every few seconds against the opponent as presumably they are running at 60 fps. It introduces a lot of stutter/lag which is obviously bad. I think it's really unfortunate that we're still stuck with this old FBA version. Personally the only way I'd enjoy FightCade is if I dual boot with XP, which is a hassle and your average user isn't going to bother..

    I tried limiting the FPS on Win7, didn't help for me. Sad thing is I'd finally gotten the original GGPO version relatively smooth with some skipping spikes, but now Fightcade's FBA is just all over the place no matter what I seem to try.

    The reason I think it may get even crappier online isn't just that the opponent's framerates are different, but the algorithm itself is thrown by the off-timed and skipped frames. The skipped frames themselves cause prediction errors (it's not on the frame it expected) which lead to more rollbacks for the stuttering player, which means LOTS of inputs being tossed.

    This article "Fight the Lag" goes in to detail about how GGPO works, and talks about how things are based on the frames the players are on
    - http://319media.net/emu/GDM_September_2012.pdf
    (hope it's not illegal to post that, it's from 2012)

    Given that, it does seem like stuttering on the emulator side would affect the algorithm.
    Gettysburg, PA
    Netplay Poverty - http://www.twitch.tv/randomalt
    X-Men COTA and stuff - http://www.youtube.com/user/BattousaiCV
    Blurbs about games - http://twitter.com/BattousaiCV
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    Yeah, the FPS limiting trick was nice but won't work due to the need to keep players in sync with each other. Great for offline though.

    On the other hand, my hack to disable DWM works great - on par or even better than when running on XP! It's so good that I actually play better than on XP as there seems to be about an extra frame or two to react for DPs and block fireballs when walking towards.

    Apparently there are also other ways of disabling DWM, as it's become necessary for anything where input lag is a consideration on Windows 8. It seems like it affects any latency-sensitive program that draws a window on the screen. For example players of the game "Osu!" (similar to DDR) also face a similar problem, and I've seen posts on their forums about ways of turning that DWM shit off. And all this time I thought we were alone in suffering the horribleness of Aero/DWM!
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

    www.youtube.com/Guoguodi
    GGPO Handle: Gizzle
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,045
    Is FightCade down? I can't connect...
  • TSTS pbbbbbbt... Joined: Posts: 4,302 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2015
    It is down.

    edit: back up
    Post edited by TS on
  • JedahsMinistryJedahsMinistry BattousaiCV Joined: Posts: 542
    Is anyone else unable to turn off "Force 60hz" in the Fightcade emulator? No matter what I do or what ini I edit, it keeps coming back. Part of the stuttering/skip might be that, as IIRC CPS2 wasn't full 60hz but 59.8 or similar. I could be wrong on that.

    On a brand new Win7 laptop, there's also an interesting pattern emerging. It'll be near perfect smoothness for about 3-5 seconds, then choppy stuttering for 5-8, then back to normal. This can be confirmed visually in games with lots of flicker/checker effects (Vampire Savior lifebars and winscreen), and it shows up in the FRAFS frametimes graphs.
    Gettysburg, PA
    Netplay Poverty - http://www.twitch.tv/randomalt
    X-Men COTA and stuff - http://www.youtube.com/user/BattousaiCV
    Blurbs about games - http://twitter.com/BattousaiCV
  • Sp00kyFoxSp00kyFox Joined: Posts: 335
    I was just setting up and playing FightCade for the first time and I too noticed problems with stuttering gameplay under windows 8.1. only way for me to fix that was to set the blitter to "experimental (DX9)", deactivate "auto frameskip" and switch to fullscreen.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Sp00kyFox wrote: »
    I was just setting up and playing FightCade for the first time and I too noticed problems with stuttering gameplay under windows 8.1. only way for me to fix that was to set the blitter to "experimental (DX9)", deactivate "auto frameskip" and switch to fullscreen.

    Try disabling aero theme and enabling classic. That seems to net some pretty positive results.
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