The inevitable tier thread

[damdai]

Damdai I take it, in your chart if there is no number it means the matchup is even? If so how is Sim vs Claw even? Also how is Sim vs Boxer even? I think you are right on with all the other vs matchups for Sim.

Thanks

No number means I don't feel qualified to answer.

[UltraDavid]

All of hondas non-block reactions to fireball can be swept or fierce dpd. The fierce dp gives ken the advantage over ryu here. I give honda the edge over blanka because honda feels safer in the match holding down-back, whereas blanka knows he will have to take a risk to do damage, plus he loses his greatest strength, his tick throw.

Hey I've been saying from the start that I think Ken is Honda's worst matchup now, but I don't think his matchup v Honda in this game is as bad as Ryu or DeeJay in ST.

Also, what's up with your Gief numbers? Why are they so much worse than your ST numbers listed here? I always thought that some of your ST Gief numbers were wonky in the first place to be honest, but it seems strange to me that you'd list him as worse almost across the board after he got buffed. I don't play Gief in Remix, so I don't feel qualified to come to my own judgments, but that just seems weird to me.

[Thelo]

I honestly still think that Ryu is a tiny bit deadlier than Ken against Honda (his fireballs are harder to react to and harder to anticipation-jump over, Ryu super is strictly better, and empirically I lose to Ryu more often than I lose to Ken) but Ken's fierce shoryuken really does shut down Honda's floating ridiculously well, especially his floating fierce. Damdai and I played a couple hours of Ken vs Honda casuals recently, and we busted out laughing every time the Ken fierce shoryuken tagged Honda from a ridiculously long distance. It's very possible that Ryu or Ken being the better counter to Honda depends on the Honda player's style - I rely more on reaction than the average Honda does, maybe Ryu is better suited to defeat my playstyle.

Interestingly, the additions to all three of these characters (Ryu's fake fireball, Ken's huge fierce shoryuken, Honda's jab headbutt / floating fierce / tripguard jump short) are all very useful to these matchups. So yeah Honda has good new tools to get in, but Ryu & Ken also have new tools to keep him out, so it kind of balances out.

I personally feel that Honda vs Ryu is 3-7, and that Honda vs Ken is 3.5-6.5.

[BruceLB]

   RY KE HO CH BL ZA GU DH TH FE DJ CA BX CL SA DI
RY  -  6  7  6  7  7  5  3  7  7  5  7  4  4  4  6 (85)
KE  4  -  8  5  7  7  4  5  7  7  4  7  4  4  5  6 (84)
HO  3  2  -     6  7           6  4  6
CH  4  5     -  6  7                 5
BL  3  3  4  4  -  7     6     3  3  4  2
ZA  3  3  3  3  3  -  3  4  6  3  3  3  6  3  3  4 (53)
GU  5  6           7  -           5
DH  7  5        4  6     -        6  4        7
TH  3  3           4        -     4
FE  3  3  4     7  7           -  4
DJ  4  5  6  5  6  6  5  4  6  7  -  6  4  5  5  6 (80)
CA  3  3  4  5  6  7     6           -
BX  6  6        8  4                    -
CL  6  6           7                       -
SA  6  5           7     3                    -
DI  4  4           6                             -

* Runs away screaming "WooHooHoOooo"

I added (and changed) what I felt is correct for Dee Jay.

[The Osprey]

Those Blanka numbers look...unusual.

Not that I'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination. Where the hell are Real Decoy and Bluetallcans?

[Jizzon]

(insightful T.Hawk tidbits)

Seconded, and well said. There seem to be two large ideas about the dive differences that people are getting hung up on:

1. New dive is much safer overall than old dive on block. Just because there are a few instances where the new dive isn't safe doesn't make it "unsafe like the old dive, but worse because it doesn't knock down." It chips, trades favorably all the time, and is safe the overwhelming majority of the time on block. (When it's not, it's usually pilot error.)

2. The knockdown property of the old dive isn't brutally effective until your opponent is near the corner so you can make up the distance faster. At midscreen you land so far away that your opponent has plenty of chances to recover and retaliate before you can capitalize. It might be a slightly different story if T.Hawk still had his option select/safe command throw, but he doesn't.

A truly decent Hawk player wouldn't overuse any dive, would they? I'm decent with T.Hawk, and would much rather have the new dive than the old one for the reasons listed by quite a few people. The point seems moot now anyway; he's not changing again anytime soon, if ever. Even if he's debatably the worst character in the game, the tiers do feel tighter than before, and he's still deadly in the right hands.


Regarding the Blanka numbers, how do they feel off to you? Seem pretty reasonable (though I'd put him a 3 instead of a 2 against Boxer, heh).

[damdai]

Also, what's up with your Gief numbers? Why are they so much worse than your ST numbers listed here, considering Gief's buffs and even in matchups where the opponent was nerfed? I don't play Gief in Remix, so I don't feel qualified to talk, but that just seems weird to me.

Experience has changed my opinion of gief from the time I gave those numbers.

[VirtuaFighterFour]

VirtuaFighter, you said it yourself a while back that you always get knocked out of your ticks when you're using Hawk, so its pretty obvious you don't have any room to speak when you're saying R.Hawk sucks. It sounds like you're the one who sucks.

The reason I get 'knocked out of my ticks' is that people reversal out of the new command throw an infinite percent more often than ST. In ST I could just negative edge the command throw, end my motion in down and back, and let the game option select the situation for me.

In HDR against truly competent competition (I don't play HDR online, only offline) they are going to constantly be getting reversal attacks to beat T.Hawk's command throw. I don't know what level of competition you are facing but good players will be hitting you out of your command throws in HDR often, especially now that many reversal moves have larger input windows for motions.

I just don't see someone like John Choi or Valle, or any players with similarly excellent execution, getting rocked by T.Hawk ever in HDR because those players can simply avoid the command throw now with a reversal. In ST no matter how amazing your execution was at getting reversals, if Hawk closed in on you, a reversal would merely delay the inevitable in that situation.

I can't wait till I go to Evo and tear 3/4 of my competition apart, and have people tell me R.Hawk still sucks. Hell, the new Dive tears Guile apart.

OK now this is getting ridiculous. You are saying right here that you are going to win 75% of your matches at EVO in convincing fashion. Not just 75% win but you are stating that you will be 'tearing people apart'. Come on dude even if you are the most godlike R.Hawk on the planet that doesn't change the fact that R.Hawk is bottom tier anyways.

Toutanki and Mayakon, K, Inomata, there are some great N.Hawk and O.Hawk players in Japan for ST. But some success with those character doesn't exactly propel them to the top of the pack. Even if you go to EVO2010 and make top eight with Hawk is doesn't mean that Hawk is even one of the eight best characters in ST and still might mean that he's the worst character.

Just because he's the worst character doesn't mean winning is impossible. We've seen lower tier characters in fighting games do well (look at Kuroda with Q). You seem to take it that because you are winning with R.Hawk that means he's not low tier.

For me, it's blatantly obvious that the new dive is better than the old one. Just the fact that you have no fear of retaliation if it's blocked is enough for me to push it over the old one. I don't know if Hawk players can't adjust their style to the new dive and his overall strategy now or what.

That makes no sense. So because there is no fear of direct relation during R.Hawk's recovery from the dive that makes it better and more effective at getting within throw range? The old dive scored a knockdown which in some match-ups is all that Hawk needed to establish a winning series of moves.

I hated "all or nothing" Hawk. He was such a boring character to use. Remix Hawk is so much more versatile and fun to me and possibly with the exception of Honda/Blanka, his impossible matchups in ST are definitely winnable now.

This is so absurd. So because you didn't like the 'all or nothing' style of Hawk you have to rebalance him around fun instead of offensive effectiveness? Dictator in ST was even more all or nothing and he wasn't changed nearly as much as T.Hawk was.

[Kuroppi]

I think Damdai's Zangief numbers are pretty good. I differ a little bit on a couple of them but overall they seem right. I posted my opinion of his matches the other day in the Zangief thread (I've thought about it and I think I ranked him a little too high against the shotos so I've modified that).

Zangief

vs Ryu - 4.5-5.4
vs Ken - 4-6
vs Honda - 3-7
vs Blanka - 2.5-7.5
vs Guile - 3-7
vs Chun - 3-7
vs Dhalsim - 4-6
vs Cammy - 6.5-3.5
vs Fei Long - 4-6
vs Dee Jay - 3-7
vs Hawk - 5-5
vs Boxer - 5.5-4.5
vs Claw - 3-7
vs Sagat - 5-5
vs Dictator 6-4

[Kuroppi]

That makes no sense. So because there is no fear of direct relation during R.Hawk's recovery from the dive that makes it better and more effective at getting within throw range? The old dive scored a knockdown which in some match-ups is all that Hawk needed to establish a winning series of moves.

If all you depend on winning with Hawk is the throw loop, then I agree with you. I do not just depend on the throw loop and I use a variety of different moves and tactics to win with him.

This is so absurd. So because you didn't like the 'all or nothing' style of Hawk you have to rebalance him around fun instead of offensive effectiveness? Dictator in ST was even more all or nothing and he wasn't changed nearly as much as T.Hawk was.

Of course you feel this way because you think Remix Hawk sucks.

IMO, he is more fun now and is just as effective on offense, if not better.

[JigglyNorris]

The reason I get 'knocked out of my ticks' is that people reversal out of the new command throw an infinite percent more often than ST. In ST I could just negative edge the command throw, end my motion in down and back, and let the game option select the situation for me.

In HDR against truly competent competition (I don't play HDR online, only offline) they are going to constantly be getting reversal attacks to beat T.Hawk's command throw. I don't know what level of competition you are facing but good players will be hitting you out of your command throws in HDR often, especially now that many reversal moves have larger input windows for motions.

At first this happened to me all the time. It changed after I stopped doing the same dumb ticks over and over. Instead of doing J.Jab-Cr.Jab-Typhoon, watch how many people fall for the grab after a J.Jab. Or better yet, after a cross-up splash, grab someone with a Typhoon. I've done this too so some pretty damn good players with little issues, so tell me, why can't you do the same?

I just don't see someone like John Choi or Valle, or any players with similarly excellent execution, getting rocked by T.Hawk ever in HDR because those players can simply avoid the command throw now with a reversal. In ST no matter how amazing your execution was at getting reversals, if Hawk closed in on you, a reversal would merely delay the inevitable in that situation.

I completely agree, it was nice being able to Typhoon in ST with no fear of retaliation, but how often did T.Hawk actually get in the situation to be able too? Not enough. How often were Choi or Valle get rocked in ST with T.Hawk? Never. Just because you're not competent enough to believe T.Hawk can beat players like those guys doesn't mean he can't.

OK now this is getting ridiculous. You are saying right here that you are going to win 75% of your matches at EVO in convincing fashion. Not just 75% win but you are stating that you will be 'tearing people apart'. Come on dude even if you are the most godlike R.Hawk on the planet that doesn't change the fact that R.Hawk is bottom tier anyways.

My goal isn't too change Hawk's tier status (in fact I wasn't even thinking about what tier he is, I already know for a fact he's mid-tier), my goal was to prove too everyone whining how much worse he is that he's much more capable than he ever was before.

Toutanki and Mayakon, K, Inomata, there are some great N.Hawk and O.Hawk players in Japan for ST. But some success with those character doesn't exactly propel them to the top of the pack. Even if you go to EVO2010 and make top eight with Hawk is doesn't mean that Hawk is even one of the eight best characters in ST and still might mean that he's the worst character.

Again, my goal isn't to change his tier status. And besides, we already know where he's at in ST, we're talking about HDR here.

Too me, it seems like you need to practice more before you argue about Hawk and he's so much worse in HDR.

And btw, you say I'm trolling? There's 2 problems I have with this:

1. You've stated before on the board that T.Hawk has become a scrub character due to easier input commands with his Typhoon. A scrub will never master T.Hawk, no matter how easy the commands are. And even still, only a handful of the people I've ever played use T.Hawk (and even less are actually good with him).

2. You bitch and moan about Hawk not getting active grab frames because you want more leniency grabbing. Irony?

[THEbloodyhighclaw]

jiggly---it sounds to me that you are too over confident. have you ever been to evo to compete? tournament play is very different than playing xbl at home or getting together with your buddies. I'd be very suprised if you didn't go 2 and out. just my observation.

[JigglyNorris]

jiggly---it sounds to me that you are too over confident. have you ever been to evo to compete? tournament play is very different than playing xbl at home or getting together with your buddies. I'd be very suprised if you didn't go 2 and out. just my observation.

I go to tournaments all the time. I just haven't been to EVO yet.

[FreshOJ]

jiggly---it sounds to me that you are too over confident. have you ever been to evo to compete? tournament play is very different than playing xbl at home or getting together with your buddies. I'd be very suprised if you didn't go 2 and out. just my observation.

You're so far off base here. Just go to YouTube and watch the man play. He has a right to say what he's saying. He wouldn't go 2 and out unless he drew somebody extremely good.

Of course, I also understand that "tearing people apart" was probably said more out of frustration with those of you who won't take and apply the advice of two of the best T.Hawk players on this forum (there are others besides them...I mean no offense by omitting them). I mean...how many posts and videos do Kuroppi and Jiggly have to put up before you realize that it might be a good idea to just *try* what they're saying?

Edit: Of course, if you can't do what they're talking about but they can and it works for them..........you do the math. Less whining, more learning. That's what I'm about.

[JigglyNorris]

Thanks Onaje (can I call you that? lol).

I just wanna get some vids up of me vs Guile's asap to show people how much better that much is for Hawk.

[zass]

   RY KE HO CH BL ZA GU DH TH FE DJ CA BX CL SA DI
CH  3  4  7  -  5  7  6  6  4  6  5  6  5  4  5  5  (78)

My view on Chun Li

[THEbloodyhighclaw]

OJ, yes, I've seen them. but its not like you'll encounter noobs at evo. personally, I didn't see anything extra ordinary. I commend his spirit nonetheless.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Well you certainly know Sim's matchups better than I do. Many of his good matchups may be better, but have any of them flipped? Sim has actual reversals now, so for example while it might be easier to get in as Zangief, getting in no longer equals a free win.

Yeah, being able to use the Super as a reversal now is really nice. But in practice it mostly only helps against the grapplers, which he already beat. I guess it's also useful every once in a while against Boxer. But with everyone else, they just won't meaty you when you have super. Or worse, they'll try to bait it. So, it's a good threat tool but you don't really get to land it very often.

The thing with Dhalsim is that in ST he was good against almost everyone and GREAT against a ~1/3 of the cast. In HDR, he got worse while most people got better. In some cases, I think the match did flip(ex. Bison). In others, he's even or still wins, but not by the landslide he used to. So, I think he's still a very solid and very well rounded character, but I don't think he's the rape train he used to be. Here's my current thinking on his match-ups:

   RY KE HO CH BL ZA GU DH TH FE DJ CA BX CL SA DI
DH  6  7  6  5  6  6  5  -  6  5  5  4  5  4  7  4  (81)

Compare that with Gian's rating of him in ST. Now, I'm nowhere near as good as Gian, but I think my assessments are still fairly reasonable. So, I think he's solid. Just not a beast like he was.

PS: Damdai - You have Sim 7-3 vs Ryu and 5-5 vs Ken. Just curious...why?

[BruceLB]

jiggly---it sounds to me that you are too over confident. have you ever been to evo to compete? tournament play is very different than playing xbl at home or getting together with your buddies. I'd be very suprised if you didn't go 2 and out.

It entirely is possible to have no tournament experience and do well at Evo.

This years Evo was literally my second live tournament ever and I made it to winners final playing on a system I have never played on before. I didn't have no lucky easy draw either. I had to play Mavrick, Amir, Damdai, Sirlin and Sin.

Thelo is also a predominantly online player and he made top 8.

With the advent of GGPO and how much better the net code in fighting games is getting, online play is not that far off from offline as people like to make it out to be.

snip

No way is Sim 5-5 vs. Dee Jay. Are you seriously going to say that Sim does not have the advantage in that match? Yaya has that as a 2 for Dee Jay, now I'm not saying it's that bad, in fact I don't agree with a lot of what Yaya says (a 3 against Chun, really?) but it's obvious Sim has the advantage.

[JigglyNorris]

OJ, yes, I've seen them. but its not like you'll encounter noobs at evo. personally, I didn't see anything extra ordinary. I commend his spirit nonetheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn3RTllHUIA

That's the best Blanka in the nation, and the Honda that placed 5th at EVO. I feel confident for a reason.

[SweetJohnnyV]

No way is Sim 5-5 vs. Dee Jay. Are you seriously going to say that Sim does not have the advantage in that match? Yaya has that as a 2 for Dee Jay, now I'm not saying it's that bad, in fact I don't agree with a lot of what Yaya says (a 3 against Chun, really?) but it's obvious Sim has the advantage.

I kind of waffle on a few of those numbers. DJ and Guile are two in particular. On the face of it, it certainly seems like Sim has an advantage in those matches. But since he can't easily punch under their projectiles any more it takes away the one thing he used to rape them with.

Against both of them you have to grind it out by throwing projectiles and getting them to jump and then punishing that jump. Vs DJ, you usually use a slide. Vs Guile it's usually back + LP/LK. The problem is that it takes several attacks for Sim to equal the damage they do if you screw up once. And if you screw up bad, they combo you for big damage. At that point, they might stay on top of you and finish you off, or just turtle it out.

I hear what you're saying, and you're probably right. It's probably still slightly in Sim's favor. But when I play against good DJs, like you or Leonowski, it doesn't feel like Sim still has much of an advantage.

[Thelo]

   RY KE HO CH BL ZA GU DH TH FE DJ CA BX CL SA DI
CH  3  4  7  -  5  7  6  6  4  6  5  6  5  4  5  5  (78)

My view on Chun Li

Wow, you feel pretty confident vs Honda. What's your reasoning for pegging it at 7-3?

[EA Megaman]

Wow, you feel pretty confident vs Honda. What's your reasoning for pegging it at 7-3?

Probably because of our last set.

To be fair I was bit out of practice, I'd put it closer to 6-4 Chun.

[CWheezy]

You say 'read the quote again' but instead of quoting what was actually said, you deliberately change it and then try to pass it off as Sirlin's words? Either that or you have the worst reading comprehension on the forums.

I didn't change it, paraphrasing.

His gameplay is more “interactive” now and less based on perfectly executing a throw loop, so this makes fighting him more fun. And when all is said and done, I hope players will find him more effective than he was in ST, just not game-breakingly so.

Hopefully t hawk will be more effective, just not overpowered

Please note that both of these do not say t hawk is game-breakingly overpowered, you are just not reading what is being said. Maybe you read what you want to see?

[Ganelon]

Well, if everybody is ready to post matchup charts now:

claw
vs.
Ryu: 6-4
E.Honda: 5-5
Blanka: 6-4
Guile: 6-4
Ken: 5.5-4.5
Chun Li: 6-4
Zangief: 6.5-3.5
Dhalsim: 6-4
T.Hawk: 6.5-3.5
Fei Long: 6-4
Cammy: 5.5-4.5
Dee Jay: 5.5-4.5
boxer: 4.5-5.5
Sagat: 6-4
dictator: 5-5
=86 (+11)