2 Frame Punishes...The more you know


#1

Some of these are not viable or less viable than others and some of these you may already know but doesn’t hurt :slight_smile: I am also aware that ex dan kick always is just one hit on block


#2

this rule applies to people like ryu and grapplers too


#3

Some supers are weird like that. IIRC Chun can punish some -1 moves with her super (at least the Mk version). On the note of Dudley’s super, it counterhits me out of a certain set-up where HP DP is too slow to do the same, so it’s not only for punishes.


#4

Dudley’s is 2F startup after the freeze that’s why.


#5

But the freeze itself is 1f, so why does that matter?


#6

i may start to save my super now ,thanks


#7

It shouldn’t but there is weird stuff in the game, especially in regards to characters added in Super.

Something I just discovered while exploring this whole thing:

Dudley’s LK SSB is -2F and his LP MGB is -2F on block as well.

However, they are punishable by Dudley’s super (1+2F) as well as Gouken’s super (1+2F) and Guile’s LK Super (1+2F). However they are NOT punishable by Ryu’s super (1+2F) or by a 3F DP. Even if you do it so that Dudley is in the corner so that you make sure that the moves are all hitting on the first active frame.


#8

…I don’t know why, But I’ve always believed Ryu’s super was 1+1. How could I make a mistake like that? >.<


#9

The reasons super punishes are inconsistent is because the super “freeze” doesn’t actually stop time but slows it down. You can see this effect in some showcase videos, where people play with the “bullet time” effect.

The problem arises because every move in the game specifies its recovery frames in terms of animation frames, not normal game frames. Animation frames play faster or slower in game depending on how Capcom coded the move. When the super freeze occurs, the opponent’s animation slows down (at different time ratios, depending on the super!), and sometimes the recovery frame will “jump” into an adjacent frame (due to rounding).

So for example, imagine two moves: one move takes 10 frames to recover, and the other takes 9.5 frames to recover(because it’s really 19 animation frames playing at 2x). Both moves will technically recover in 10 frames because the game will round up by waiting until the 10th frame before checking that a move has recovered. Now lets say a super freeze occurs and for arguments sake, starts the animation speed to play at 55/60x. Well the first move will recover in 10 x 55/60 = 9.17, which rounds up to 10 frames again. The second move will recover in 9.5 x 55/60=8.71 frames which now rounds up to 9 frames. The first move will still be punishable, while the second move will not.

Things get more complicated when you consider that different supers have different speed ratios, and the super freeze is only dilating time for a portion of the recovery, not the whole recovery.

This is the reason why Chun’s MK super is “1f” yet it can only punish certain moves that are normally -1 on block, but can’t others. Chun’s mk super has a different (more advantageous) speed ratio than her HK and LK supers:

Gilley found similar effects for Fuerte’s and Guile’s supers as well.

Note that Ultras don’t exhibit this problem because they completely freeze the opponent during the flash.

tl;dr - super punishes will differ both by which super is done, and which move it’s trying to punish.


"The answer lies in the heart of battle." Ryu Video Thread
#10

I see, thanks for the insight. So supers are not reliable to measuring various frame data, I’ll keep that in mind.


#11

Funny how I always thought it was the opposite - that Ultra “freeze” slows down the game, and super “freeze” pauses the game.

I could mash specials during the Ultra pause, but could not during the super pause. I just figured that the game wouldn’t read inputs during the pause!


#12

I wonder how many online Ken players is gonna watch this…ugh.


#13

This is because the Super pause disables input, while Ultra freeze doesn’t.


#14

Kinda relevant to what has been discussed in this thread. I noticed Gouken can link his super after cl.MK, even though it’s only +2, so the effect also applies to hitstun and not just recovery frames.


#15

No; input is disabled for both types of freeze. The ease of inputting moves after the freeze is affected by the startup of the Super/Ultra. It’s easier to DP Bison’s HK Super than Ibuki’s U1, for example.

With Chun’s Supers, you can’t input anything after the freeze to interrupt them, because their 1st active frame occurs during the freeze. It’s the same with Sagat’s LK Super. You can tell that they hit during the freeze because you can block them by holding upback.

It was explained in the context of Super punishes, which is why recovery frames were mentioned. This doesn’t mean that it’s somehow limited to them.


#16

Still, I’ve never heard of an actual example where it works in a combo before.


#17

Earlier I said that Ultras don’t exhibit this problem because the opponent is frozen during the flash. While this is true, for whatever reason, Vega’s U1 alters the game’s animation speed during the active frames when he flies towards the wall (i.e. before the ultra flash). This is the reason for Vega’s U1 unblockable on Ibuki:

Since it’s the same principle, it’s possible for some characters to have unblockable Super setups on Ibuki’s face-up knockdown.


#18

So, what’s up with the 2 frame throw Ultras then, since they can generally punish moves at -1.


#19

It’s simple. They’re 1f, not 2f.


#20

Yea IIRC they are only referred to as 2F because it’s an easier (although false) way to explain them being able to be jumped out of. It has to do with how the startup interacts with the ultra freeze.

“1F” throws have the startup frame essentially before the flash, which is why they still hit you if you try to jump after the flash happens.

“2F” throws act as most other ultras do, having the move become active after the ultra freeze ends. They are still definitely 1F moves, which is why they can punish moves that are -1. They can be jumped out of however, because of them becoming active after the flash.

That’s the easiest way I can explain it simply, while being somewhat thorough.