2012, Year of the Oil

hakan

#1

Well since the release date for the 2012 patch was just confirmed recently, I thought it would be good to get a thread going for everyone to chip in with ideas and predictions regarding how things might work out in 2012; strategies, matchups etc, as a sort of countdown until release, if you like. It’s a big turning point in Hakans short lifespan so far.

I know we had threads about the changes, but it was really just confirming the changes; and reaction to the changes. So now that we’ve had a good while to digest all the changes, and going by the pretty lackluster threads that have been created last few weeks or so, maybe it would be good to have something concrete to have a discussion on. It would be good if we could get the guys from the Seasons Beatings tournament to give some input here as well, after just playing Hakan at tournament level.

Here’s a list of the changes, just to refresh everyones mind:

Hakan gets oiled from the start of the match. (Edit: Confirmed as being around 12 seconds)

• Neutral Jump Light Kick hitbox is bigger.

• Neutral Jump Light Punch is active 8 frames.

• Neutral Jump Medium Punch is active 4 frames.

• Jumping Light Punch is active 8 frames.

• Crouching Hard Punch now hits twice.

• Toward + Medium Punch has a smaller vulnerability area during the start of hit detection.

• Hakan now slides when you do Guard Position (Command Crouch) from a dash and you’re oiled, applies to both forward and back dashes.

• Oil Slide does more stun; if you input Oil Shower follow-up, the slide does 100 stun. If you do the Body Press follow-up, 150 stun total during the press. This means you won’t miss your combo chances if you stun an opponent with the slide.

• Oil Dive’s trajectory and reach revised, buffing Hard Kick and EX.

• Medium and Hard Oil Dive, when whiffing a crouching opponent, will go past your opponent to make punishing him harder.

• Light Kick Oil Dive has a faster startup, Medium Kick has the old LK startup, Hard Kick has the old MK startup.

• Dive won’t whiff against shorter characters if they’re standing.

• Hakan’s Super activates faster, throw priority has been increased and, like Oil Dive, Medium and Hard versions can pass over crouching opponents. LK and MK have a faster startup.

So there we have it.

Bear in mind, even with all these changes, Hakan will still take a lot of skill to use efficiently, just how we like it!

So, Hakan - 2012, Pros, Cons? What matchups are going to change? How will the new oil dives work? Lots to get through so…

Discuss


#2

The biggest thing I see here and the most troublesome one change is “You now have to relearn all your uncrouchables”. Not the end of the world mind, but annoying.


#3

Talkative bunch you lot huh?

Lets break down these changes a little bit:

Hakan gets oiled from the start of the match. (Edit: Confirmed as being around 12 seconds)

-Hakans biggest game-changer. This now completely re-writes how Hakan will approach his matches. Instead of relying on trying to get oiled, his focus will now be staying oiled. If you can gain the first advantage and win the tactical fight at the start, you could be looking at a lot of oil to work with.

• Neutral Jump Light Kick hitbox is bigger.

- Interesting change, not really sure what this change will mean. It will be a stronger neutral air move of course, but it might also make his instant overhead universal. It’s only 50 damage, but it can be a sneaky way of finishing opponents off, and also beats certain reversals, not for much reward but…it works!

• Neutral Jump Light Punch is active 8 frames.

- Already one of Hakans fastest moves, it has 4 frame startup, and decent priority, so it was already really good, now with 8 active frames it will now be even better. One to definitely mess around with.

• Neutral Jump Medium Punch is active 4 frames.

- Neutral medium was okay, it had 2 active frames previously, now getting changed to 4. Could be a good solid air to air get away from me move

• Jumping Light Punch is active 8 frames
Same as neutral, although this could make reset situations a lot more frequent since the priority has increased

• Crouching Hard Punch now hits twice.

- Interesting one, will be usable as an armor breaker, no mention if the frames have been tweaked. Could be getting used a lot more often now.

• Toward + Medium Punch has a smaller vulnerability area during the start of hit detection.

  • Reallly suprised with this one, f.mp already a really great move, buffed? It does trade a lot to be fair, this might lessen the trades, but it was never an issue really. One of the best normals got better.

• Hakan now slides when you do Guard Position (Command Crouch) from a dash and you’re oiled, applies to both forward and back dashes.

**- So we’ve seen this in action. The crossup situation maybe looks like the most interesting. It will also be interesting to see how dashing with it works. Dash > coward crouch slide into command throw perhaps? Looking forward to trying this out. Sliding around will be fun! **

• Oil Slide does more stun; if you input Oil Shower follow-up, the slide does 100 stun. If you do the Body Press follow-up, 150 stun total during the press. This means you won’t miss your combo chances if you stun an opponent with the slide.

- Didn’t really understand this one at first, maybe someone else has seen this happen?

• Oil Dive’s trajectory and reach revised, buffing Hard Kick and EX.
- Big changes. Interested to see how these will changes will affect the dives. I don’t think it will go as far as catching backdashes, but in terms of new setups, there could be a lot more to work with.


• Medium and Hard Oil Dive, when whiffing a crouching opponent, will go past your opponent to make punishing him harder.

- This was great to hear. If it’s true that it only works with MK and HK dives then we’re going to have to find a lot of setups involving lk and mk dives! (See below)

• Light Kick Oil Dive has a faster startup, Medium Kick has the old LK startup, Hard Kick has the old MK startup.
- LK oil dive anti-air? I think it would be too good, it would need to be insanely quick anyway. Really doubt they’ll make it that fast. Anyway, HK dive speed is no more, for all HK dive setups, you’re going to have to use the EX version. New setups will have to be found for LK oil dive as well I think. Can’t wait to test it all out.
• Dive won’t whiff against shorter characters if they’re standing.

- So this is what we were waiting for, oil dives becoming universal. Honda, Cammy, Blanka, Dhalsim…who else am I missing? They’re all going to feel the wrath of oil dives now. It might sound a bit much, but I think these alone, will change those matchups, and then you add on being oiled at the start.

• Hakan’s Super activates faster, throw priority has been increased and, like Oil Dive, Medium and Hard versions can pass over crouching opponents. LK and MK have a faster startup.

- Hmm. So Super can now pass over crouching opponents. Think there will be some interesting ideas for this. Throw priority increased as well as startup, this COULD be now, a usable anti-air. That would be something. This could also mean new punishes, but we’ll have to wait and see.


#4

Yeah I know what you mean, like I mentioned in the above post, we’re going to have to try and work on a lot of new setups. HK oil dive is gone for good. So I think in the meantime, to give ourselves a good advantage, we should start trying to find LK dive setups (which will be the new mk speed) and MK dives, which will be the new HK speed. LK dives will have to be re-learned entirely.

I honestly can’t think of any MK dive setups at the moment. Not good. Mordie, you’re needed. :wink:

Also remember that only MK and HK dives will pass over the opponents head, so having setups for these will be pretty important. To the lab!


#5

But I was actually thinking about it, and trying to crunch frames. If we found the exact frame difference between the two, then wouldn’t we just have to find a move that has more total frames than say f. mk by the same amount to get the new go to move? I mean in some cases even slides have worked for frame traps for me (you can lp rocket, mp slide and lk dive for an uncrouchable) the move will probably be somewhere in his repitoire, maybe even an air move.


#6

Didn’t the oil dives get their reach increased as well? I’m guessing besides mindfucking people from afar, from mid screen or out of corner, punishing a whiffed ddt would be harder if we travel a further distance in our recovery. I’m thinking something along the lines of Hakan still rolling/sliding on the ground safely towards the other end after a Fei Long attempts an ex chickenwing to tag him. Perhaps someone can test that out. Still can’t believe that our ddt from being the most horrendously long punishable special that had at least thrice the recovery from any other specials besides command grabs to being what could be one of the safest whiffed special in game. Outside projectile characters that is.

With that in mind and the decrease startup of lk oil dive, I’m guessing more experience players may not want to risk getting caught standing even at a distance. We would defintely be using the ddt more than we ever did before. We are also going to start off with 12 sec of oil. People who knows the difference between a drykan and an oilkan knows that they have to stop us from getting oiled, and that is usually done by rushing us down in the beginning of the match if they want to get that momentum. That’s no longer the case now since we can greet them with an Ottoman Slap to the floor with our bdnc right from the start. So, I’m expecting more turtling and fireball spaming or even footsies from opponents. Either way i think this might give us more time to stay oil. That is my impression anyway.


#7

Oh and keep in mind that oil dives and super only goes over the opponents if Hakan is close to them. I’m speculating that beyond the range of 1.1 or even less (they did say really close to the opponent if I recalled) would have Hakan falling right in front of them again. So if you want to create safe oil dive setups, make sure that Hakan is close enough to go over them or able to catch backdashes or jump aways, which I’m guessing that Hakan is able to do.


#8

Oops I worded that wrong. MK dive is the new LK dive, and HK dive is the new MK dive.

I’m not sure I understand you here, are you meaning change the move you whiff before the oil dive from frame data? If that’s the case I can see what you’re saying, but good old experimentation in the lab is probably a quicker way, just try out different normals and see what you can make work. Sorry if I’ve misunderstood you here.

Well, lets look at this way. When you can stand in front of someone on wakeup, and do an oil dive; coming out on top 3 out of 5 times, that’s a pretty serious mixup to me. So, HK Oil Dive, point blank…it will either get the uncrouchable setup, it will catch a jump, or it will sail over the opponents head, I’m sure in most cases to relative safety. You lose to reversal, and backdash (I guess?) Not bad if you ask me. No longer should there be that fear of whiffing an oil dive in front of someone. From point blank anyway. We need to find more point blank setups before 2012 arrives. The jump over dives will be a lot stronger now too.

Yeah, totally. If you’re attacking Hakan at the start, you’re falling right into his hands really, if your parries are on point and your oil skills are sharp. If they decide to back off? All you do is turtle and stack more oil. Thanks kind sir’! They can try and play footsies, but playing footsies with an oiled Hakan is no mean feat. Or you can decide to go GUN HO and go for the jugular from the off-go, that’s cool too! You’ve got 12 seconds, plenty of time. So many different strategies to employ.


#9

Ok.

My first match was against my teammate TFA hornett. He’s the best Sakura on XBLA (he also perfected Poonko in a Mmatch and lost it by a pixel). This was my best match of the weekend with Hakan. so many resets and setups that I did in this match. This match was going at the exact time Chron was fighting DMG Lud on Stream. My second was against a Dee Jay player. He didnt know the match up and I abused Ex slide. ALOT. My next match was against a Seth player that relied on Xbox tactics and I lost. I learned that my problem with playing Hakan is that Im impatient. As for a tournament setting. If you do NOT know Hakan’s BnB’s or have patience, do not use him in a tournament setting. PERIOD! As for the patch, this does wonders. Allow me to explain;

Hakan gets oiled from the start of the match. (Edit: Confirmed as being around 12 seconds)
You have no idea how great this will be for us, especially those that plan on using him at tourneys. people that I faced at SB would just try to rush me down, because dry’kan is at a severe disadvantage at the beginning of each round. You’re fighting to get oil from the words, “FIGHT!” where with the patch, its on equal footing. I can rush you down with no worries and if you rush me down I have Outs, meaning I can parry or actually O.Rocket / Dive you with out really worrying about it whiffing. This is the best buff out of the patch regardless the character. It makes Hakan viable on so many levels.

• Neutral Jump Light Kick hitbox is bigger.
This makes it harder to trade when attacking air to air and even might make it easier to U1 an Air reset.

• Neutral Jump Light Punch is active 8 frames.
Just like I said with the N.J Kick

• Neutral Jump Medium Punch is active 4 frames.
This is going to be soo good. This will no longer trade with Up balls, psycho crushers or headbutts now.

• Jumping Light Punch is active 8 frames.
Im going to use this to counter Devil Reverse. With other stuff, I dont know yet.

• Crouching Hard Punch now hits twice.
This is going to be good as well. Great way to get Akuma and Dictator off of you when they start their Standing Roundhouse Shennigans. C.Fierce goes under that, so it hits twice, you get more DMG. ALso im going to abuse the $$&#(# out of this so they can start standing up instead of crouching so I can hit the Oil Dives. Wanna know the +/- on the block for it though, considering its -5 on block ATM

• Toward + Medium Punch has a smaller vulnerability area during the start of hit detection.
By-Bye Trades

[SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]• Hakan now slides when you do Guard Position (Command Crouch) from a dash and you’re oiled, applies to both forward and back dashes.
**This is a sleeper buff. In theory, this can make hakan broken. I some times CC during Rekkas, Change Direction, Psycho Crushers, Sombats, Balrog charges. Now give me the ability to slide while CC? omg! I can “pete Rose” during Fei & boxers U1 now and still be at an advantage. Will have to try it against Guiles U2 but Against Ryu, Sagat, Rose & Gouken porjectile supers / Ultras… It makes it even better to get more damage in little or next to no time now. **[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]• Oil Slide does more stun; if you input Oil Shower follow-up, the slide does 100 stun. If you do the Body Press follow-up, 150 stun total during the press. This means you won’t miss your combo chances if you stun an opponent with the slide.
Basically We’ll see more dizzyed opponents. Even though its hard to dizzy hakan, its very rare that as hakan players we have moves that stun our opponents. We really have to work to get that. Where now it’s easier. oil slide by it self is 100 stun. oil slide follow up is 0, so with the follow up in AE, its 100 stun. With the patch, the oil follow up adds 50 more stun on top of that, which means oil slide w/ body press give 150 stun. How the hell capcom forget to add stun DMG to body press is beyond me. Did you guys know that all the oil rockets are 100 on stun (except the ex version that does 160), Medium / Ex oil dive does 150 and Roundhouse oil dive does 200 stun? I dont know about you guys, but I hit a lot of players with the Oil slide/B.Press and that additional 50 point of stun racks up.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]• Oil Dive’s trajectory and reach revised, buffing Hard Kick and EX.
**Waiting to see how this will pan out.

**• Medium and Hard Oil Dive, when whiffing a crouching opponent, will go past your opponent to make punishing him harder.
**Waiting to see how this will pan out.

**• Light Kick Oil Dive has a faster startup, Medium Kick has the old LK startup, Hard Kick has the old MK startup.
Anti-Air Lk Dive kicks on certain characters now. Going to test it out IMMEDIATELY[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]• Dive won’t whiff against shorter characters if they’re standing.
**Death from above. Less Go!
**[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=Verdana]• Hakan’s Super activates faster, throw priority has been increased and, like Oil Dive, Medium and Hard versions can pass over crouching opponents. LK and MK have a faster startup.
I want this to go full screen. Will have to test this out.[/FONT][/SIZE]


#10

Thanks for the input! Yeah, patience is important with Hakan. But what’s also important is being able to go from patient and strategic; to quick thinking fast offense. Hard thing to balance. But you’re right, you need to know your bnb’s and be disciplined with your gameplan.

I see now about changing the reach on the dives, making them harder to punish if they whiff over you, and probably some other properties as well. Really interested to see the new LK and Super speeds.

So how do people feel about Hakans matchups?

I think all of them will change in one way or another. I mean Hakan starts out in a mode where he’d beat most characters. Also, how do people feel about dives being universal now and how will they affect the matches where oil dive wasn’t useful?


#11

Honestly, I feel like I can hang with the whole cast while being oiled. When I play T.Hawk, I grimace when I see Vega, Blanka & Gouken. However I dont feel that way with Hakan. Ive been playing him since super came out and the only thing that is holding me back is me. Once I get his FADNC, 1 link BNBs and how to stratiegize more in the heat of battle, I’m good. But if you go look at Chron’s match vs Lud, listen to Ultra David and Floe’s commentary, Floe basically said no one knows the Hakan match up. When he said that, he ment, “no one in the Tournament Scene knows the Hakan Match up” hes absolutley right. By going off my matches with Combofiend and KDZ, it shows. Hell Ive seen KDZ Rufus in action. R.T.S.D (RUSH THAT SHIT DOWN) however during our match he turtled and I wasnt prepared for that because I never faced a turtled Rufus before. He was spacing me so I couldnt get oiled and If I did, C.Fierce. Im tell you guys. hakan players have a HUGE advantage, especially the USA players, because aint nobody prepared for the Oil King… go to the other character specific threads here and look at the EMPTY space for Hakan Match up section. Embrace it my brothers, its a good time to get really, really, REALLY good right now, because come this time next year, people will know the match up.


#12

The thing is though, how are you meant to know a match-up where the opponent is mixing you up left right and center with safe slide, oil dives, safe jumps, and all manner of different setups. Then take into account all the crazy things he can do oiled. You know, whiffing all these moves in front of your face, setups that you’ve not seen before, and you don’t really know the whats coming next. I feel like Hakan will always be a hard to play against because of this, someone could put some time into trying to figure him out, then some Hakan player from across the coast comes along and does new stuff that he’s not seen. Thats the beauty of Hakan, he’s just got that many options. You can learn how to fight him on the ground, but again, the number of ways Hakan can be played means you’ll have to adapt very quickly.


#13

while practicing FADnCs last night. I just realized how DEADLY c.Fierce is going to be against plasma throwers.usually f.Roundhouse is my weapon of choice when Im FADnCing a Fireball to get in but now that Crouching Fierce hits twice…


#14

Looking at all the stuff we’re getting, these things popped in my mind:

I freaking LOVE that Hakan starts oiled up. Nearly all of my toughest matchups (Boxer, Dudley) were because of Hakan having to start dry and being forced to get oily in face of risks. Starting each (I think) round completely changes the dynamics of numerous matchup.

As for the C.Fierce buff, it doesn’t matter to me as much. It’s nice, but I prefer using C.Fierce as a surprise normal or a movement tool/ghetto command dash like I use Forward.MP orF.Roundhouse, but we’ll see. I’m sure you guys know character-specific stuff for c.fierce already.

Honestly, I’m kinda disappointed in the Super Dive buff. I do like that the range is longer, but I didn’t think that was a problem, especially if the opponent is in the corner. I would’ve preferred the grab range to be only slightly higher and closer from where Hakan launches Super. That way, we can punish those who tend to use very close neutral jumps like Adon and Sakura for big damage instead of just Forward.Jab (I know, I’m greedy). Also, I wished it was HK Super that got that speed buff since I believe LK’s startup is already awesome.


#15

The crouching fierce buff actually could prove useful in more than one way. One, it will break focus, and two, this could also lead to a potential Ultra/Spd setup, something that you couldn’t get off of St.HP. Something to consider.

Really? I honestly think the Super buff is great. I’m pretty sure I read that the grabbable box has been increased, I thought this meant that he now grabs a bigger area with it? Well anyway, with faster startup it could be pretty godly for punishing more moves and catching jumps. Maybe catch Honda headbutts now? Backjumps? All depends how fast they’ve made it. Have to wait and see. I’m pretty sure all the super properties are the same right now.


#16

key phrase; “The crouching fierce buff actually could prove useful in more than one way. One, it will break focus, and two, this could also lead to a potential Ultra/Spd setup” And to add…

C.Fierce helps out against the Akuma / Dictator match up due to their roundhouse BS.


#17

Focus break into Ultra 1, nasty.

Yeah, I also like cr.mk to go under Bisons st.hk, and well, Ultra 1 will be able to punish Akumas standing roundhouse in 2012. But I don’t think that will be enough change to switch from U2. Though if you’re a brave soul, it could pay off.


#18

Haven’t posted in a little while, put SF to rest for a litte bit. Looks like I haven’t missed much though. Anyway, 2012 changelist goes up tonight, 5pm PST, around 1am UK time. I doubt we’ll have anything new to discuss, they may have even removed some of the buffs, but let’s hope not! So look out for that tonight and be sure to post any thoughts opinions etc


#19

Normal: Standing Light Punch
Changed to a +4F advantage when blocked

Someone could explain me this. That inst too good? ^^


#20

Yes, it was +2F in AE. In AE, Hakan could be thrown or hit with a 3 frame attack if he was spamming standing jabs. In 2012, they’ll be counterhitted or hit if they tried that.

I hope it also means on hit, standing jab will be +8 on hit. 2 frame unplinkable BNBs sucked.

Seems we also get MK oil if we do the oil follow up after slide.