2d player who wants to play TTT and T4 help!

please answer my questions!!!

why is jin the best??

is it possible to win tournaments with someone who’s not Jin?

what basics from the 2d fighters should i learn , i.e. footsies, not jumping too much etc. etc.

Is Jin over powered?

who are the top-tiers?

Not too sure about TTT… but the top tiers in T4 are:

The reasons (as far as I know) as to why Jin is considered overpowered (from what I have read) is because of 3 moves:

He’s a Mashima – with a counter.

'nuff said…

on T4,

Where he loses his true wave dash game he had in Tag he gains Julia-like safe poke strings that lead to heavy damage. He has a just frame unblockable that is very hard to side step and also leads to bad damage. He no longer has hell sweeps but he retains the ability to wave dash into similar high low patterns and mind games. There is more, but I am lazy. Go to www.tekkenzaibatsu.com and ask. Or try reading up.

Go to TekkenZaibatsu

Jin isn’t the best. He’s just the easiest top tier character to learn.

Very possible. Almost every tournament in Cali is won with someone other than Jin.

TiT4 - Nina
TiT5 - Ling
E8 - Nina

Learn frame data, hit ranges, damaging, easy combos, and most importantly side step. Use that extra dimension :lol:.

Not really. He’s just an easy to learn, top tier character.

Top Tier:
Nina, Miharu/Ling, Steve, Jin, Lee
Middle Tier: (in no particular order)
Paul, Kazuya, Heihachi, Law, Hwoarang, Christie, King, Julia, Bryan, Yoshimitsu
Bottom Tier:
Lei, Marduk, Kuma, Combot

How is lei low tier? Can’t u just run away all day?

A few obvious problems I see with that list. First, Julia is top tier. I dont know where you could be playing that would make you feel that she isnt. Second, Lei is no where near bottom tear, he is at the very least some where in the middle mid tiers ( you are forgetting HaHa-step games, which alone means he can counter wave dashers) And thirdly move Christie to top tier as well (her mix up game and speed is way better than it ever was on Tag. On any given stage, if you fall or get cornered = death).

I also would wager that King and Heihachi belong in the low tier. King for obvious reasons, and Hei because with all his just frames he still doesnt have any good pokes, he has to rely totally on his wave dash bull dog game. And after all is said and done, still has some of the shittiest endurance in the game.

inverse: lei can’t run away in tk4.

prowess: lei is low in tekken 4…still good but low imo, much much better in tag. and lei lacks haha steps in tk4, dunno what you talking about, wavedashing isn’t half as good as in tag, and only kaz and hei can use it. julia is good but she doesn’t have some over powered bs like jin (2,1 jfls, parry) steve (121 and others) lee (ss+2) nina (1+4). thats why she belongs in middle tier. hei is definitely not low, better than julia imo, but same tier. she’s beefed up from tag, but doesn’t make it her that much better, just always been good.

way gamble is pretty much correct on the tiers. though i think ling is only as good as the user.

As I said, check TekkenZaibatsu.com

WayGamble is right on the nose.

Jin, Steve, and Lee are easy top tier. With work, Nina and Miharu can also be top. They’ve taken majors as well as Jin. I don’t think Steve, nor Lee has taken one.

Lei is bottom tier because they nerfed his damage pretty bad. Also, his HaHa Step has NOWHERE near the run-away capabilities it had before.

Julia is also, NOT top tier. She’s mid tier. Even those who play with her admit that. You’ve got to play extremely safe. Julia’s all about baiting CHs and setting up Mad Axes. She’s got a limited amount of safe moves, and gets killed by sidestepping. Christie also isn’t top tier because of her lack of safe, quick pokes.

Jin = frame advantage on everything, lock down, a killer wall game, and you make one mistake you lose 50%

Lee = quick, nice mixup, miss one move and lose 35%

Steve = rush and lock down, CHs lead to big damage, 1,2,1 is Jesus and you can do mad kinda of outside block or crouch stun set-ups

Nina = run-away bitch, hayashida, 1+4 = ubah

Ling/Miharu = great poking, awesome mix-ups, tiny

Heihachi’s d+1 keeps him out of the bottom tier, along with the fact that he has some decent moves. King is debatable. I’d say low mid tier.

Are you kidding me? Julias poke game is rediculous, and do I really need to get into the disgusting shit she can do to you off counter hit? Her elbow alone will ruin your day. Command throw on wake up (which she has forever and a day to buffer) and high priority side step options that STILL leave her safe on block. I seriously dont think you have seen good Julias to be saying that man. Any other argument would be exceptable but to say she has no poke game or damage is madness. And sorry, she beats Hei almost for free. I cant believe you even said that… seriously go try to post that at zaibatsu and you will be flamed.

I will have to agree with you on Lei, if he no longer has HaHa steps them he is greatly crippled. I only played him for a short bit exclusively on Tag and never expiremented theroughly on 4. If I had my copy i would check, but for now I will go on your word. If he doesnt have HaHa step he is low.

And Jin isnt the easiest top tier to learn. Lee is. Mist step>1,2 rense and repeat… ss+2 rense and repeat, crouching jab>ws (anything) mist step back>more mixup…fuck lee… he is gay. All lee players deserve to die. Yes, painfully.

Bah, Julia will take you all by storm some day… watch. Just you wait and see. -dissappears in a puff of smoke-

Hworang… tips, best moves, strats, etc?

It’s not not having the HaHa Step that makes Lei low, it’s the fact that he does almost no damage while in TTT he could easily pop out the hits. The distance on the HaHa Step is also nowhere near as good as TTT.

Lee easier than Jin? All you need to know with Jin is b,f+2,1,d+2* and 2,1 lock-down. All that Lee junk you just mentioned can be ducked and get cracked for free. Especially if you just 1,2~f,N, over and over. You can block d/b+1 either crouching or standing, and if the Lee player always comes out immediately with WS, you can easily get around that.

Julia’s poke game is NOWHERE near the likes of Steve, Lee, Jin, Miharu, and Nina. Her elbow isn’t godly. You can SS for one. Number two, she’s at -1 on block. Meaning if you’re playing and 8-framer, and she does anything besides block, f+1, or the follow-up kick, she takes the beats. Or you can just stand there and break Mad Axes. Her elbow pressure game is not something you should rely on. Julia has to be played more cautiously, baiting 1 CH,2,1 or catching crouchers with d/f+2,1. I’ve also seen Mick, probably the best Julia player in the country play. He’s AWESOME with Julia. That doesn’t make her top. Her jab leaves her at a disadvantage, and if you decide to 1~1,1 or 1~1,4,3 you’re gonna get low parried or left at a disadvantage to get blasted.

I never said Heihachi beat Julia either, not sure where you’re coming up with that.

And I’m a mod on Zaibatsu :slight_smile:

Still, I dont believe that. I may be naive but I have seen Julias literaly take Jin’s appart man. He side stop launcher is totally safe. Her jab leaves her at a disadvantage but you cant rush in or you might get the follow up. So you 1~delay~2. You mix up your elbow game with elbow~kick, or the into palm thrusts. There are sevral ways to stop people from trying to jump all over you after an elbow or blocked 1. Its too dangerous for most characters to do that except maybe Nina and Ling(poking machines). Most times you throw it out to stuff thier moves. If they are close range and do anything over 10 frames the elbow is ganna rape them. CH 1~2,1 into juggle hurts man, I am seriously offended that some one said she cant do damage. Her side step game is good, you can deny that. She has excellent range (although slow some times), and her wake up game on the elbow, jab, and okizime wake up are very good too.

I will have to agree, she is more of a counter character that baits alot. But just because she doesnt jab you to block stun heaven doesnt mean she cant get you open just as quickly. Her only bad matchups are Ling/Nina some times Steve, because of thier short frame jabs that present a problem. Everyone else, Lee, Jin, etc get beaten respectively because they have no answer for [1CH~2,1/1~2/1~2,kick] or [elbow~kick/elbow~mad axes/elbow] or [SS+launcher/SS+mad axes/etc etc…] she has simple as mind games that cover herself when she takes negatives on block. Because the follow up is so dangerous they cant return strike untill they are sure nothing is coming or they get counter hit and ride the elbow for a nice 35% of life or more.

Please excuse my vague discripions of moves, I havent played this game seriously in a while. Dropped it in favor of GGXX. But you should still get the jist of what I am saying.

JULIA 4R3 THE L337 ***3R OF T3KKEN… errr, yep.

I’ll say it, Heihachi owns Julia. Almost every one of Julia’s moves on block gives Heihachi a free 1,1,2. A lot give him a free d/f+1,2. All Heihachi has to do is block and break the occational Mad Axes and that’s it. He doesn’t even have do that. He can just wall push her a lot since he has the best wall and oki game.

Ive seen a Kuma triple perfect Jin. Does that mean Kuma is better than Jin? Hell no. It just means the Jin player sucked.
In all the ways Heihachi owns Julia, Jin owns her even worse. If Jin blocks Julia ss+3,4, free 2,4. Jin blocks 1,1,1, free d+3+4. Julia cant ss ls. Jin can parry every one of Julias moves and most of her moves, after theyve been parried, give Jin a free 2,4.
Youd have to be hella good with Julia to beat a Jin but if the Jin players hella good too, there really isnt anything you can do :rolleyes:.

Ahem. Jinmaster vs H#1.

Now please, explain for me again, how in the HELL do you think Jin owns Julia for free? I am not even ganna dignify your Hei comment. And no, sorry, a blocked ss+3,4 does not mean a free 2,4. Check your frame data. And what Julia EVER uses the 1,1,1 string? You are seriously not being realistic in saying that. And she can ss lazer scraper. Unless he isnt delaying it at all, and then he isnt safe afterwards.

Edit: I will agree that Jin may beat Julia respectively, but to say he beats her for free is madness. Utter.

Jinmaster doesn’t have a good Jin.

Jin can punish almost every blocked move with 2,4. Not to mention all the free 2,4’s he gets after parrying all her stuff.

All the free 2,4’s Jin gets from blocking Julia’s moves, Heihachi gets free 1,1,2’s. If I’m not mistaken Mick, argueably the best Julia in the country, got beat at E8 by Antonio, who was using Heihachi.

ss+3,4 = 11 frames
2,4 = 10 frames
blocked ss+3,4 = free 2,4

Really? Mick uses 1,1,1. Don’t confuse use with abuse.

And she can ss lazer scraper. Unless he isnt delaying it at all, and then he isnt safe afterwards.


Not being able ss a regular ls just adds to Jin’s already too good ls mixup. All Julia gets after blocking a ls is 1,2 or d/b+1. That’s it.

Aenica, the best Julia player in Europe, went to Evolution and went two and out.

Anyway, it’d better to argue Julia vs Jin/Heihachi on TekkenZaibatsu. I suck at Tekken 4 :p.

man I use Julia. I know Jin beats Julia. I don’t know what safe pokes she has against Jin. They get parried like fuck.

Firstly Jin wasnt using Jin. He was using Julia and surgically dismantled every Jin in the tourny. He literaly picked Julia spicifically against other Jins and took them appart. Only untill the last round was he forced to use Lee. And he still went back to Julia frequently and was NOT getting raped. So I seriously dont think you understand my refrence.

Start up frames have nothing to do with block stun, what are you talking about. What you need to be looking at is her frame advantage/disadvantage on a block. And it does NOT exceed the 10 frames it would have to for jin to get anything “free”. Oh, and for the record, Jin’s 2,4 is 12 frames. The only retaliation he has that is under 10 frames is a crouching 1. Also, Hei’s 1,1,2 its 10 frames, she will block it and if he finishes it he is at a -17 frame disadvantage. Which means he eats the second ss+3,4 or any number of launchers for free. It would help your debate alot if you would at least check the frame data. I did know the frames in her ss+3,4 so I had to check but I know from expirience that Jin cant retaliate. Its one of the MOST abused moves in a Jin vs Julia match. Its quite possibly her best move.

Julia is not top tier. We’ve supplied mathematical proof, along with different strategies and what’s happened. You’ve retorted with theory fighter.

Also, last I checked, Julia beats Steve, or has a much easier time with him than say, Jin.

1,2? That leaves her at -15. That means free beats from Lee AND Jin. 1,2,3 gets low parried, and 1,2,4 gets ducked. She’s only got a high or low kick from there, so you’ll see somebody duck, and they’ll low parry the 3 on reaction.

Elbow, kick is decent, but it gets SS’d. Elbow-elbow gets fucked up by sidestep too. elbow-mad axes is old and gets broken by good players. You’ve got a mixup game that where you’ve only got a couple situations that if you don’t guess right, you won’t get your ass plugged. Otherwise, make sure Julia’s got some astroglide on her butt.