2D vs 3D: Seth Responds! Round 2, Fight!


#1

Since I wasnt able to respond to a lot of the comments I received on last weeks article, Id like to take some time to do that here, squeezing a little more theory in along the way. I didnt want anybody to think that I didnt still care! And just so no one complains that Im being “too mean” (yeah- being mean is bad! I was actually thinking of changing the columns name to “Seths Happy-Time Sissy Jam”, where we all hold hands, and everyones a winner!- maybe now is the time), Ive decided not to name names in what follows. You know who you are…

Some points:

Lets not have any more stupid discussions about whether floating anti-gravity jumps and “deathfists” or breathing fire and stretching your limbs are “more realistic”. Theyre both stupid and fake. Bickering about which is more fake, even if doable, is a complete waste of time. The perspective of “realism” is irrelevant. Every non-moron understands that these are games. Chess is also a game. Is chess a better or worse game due to how “realistic” it is (or isnt)? Does pointing out that castles dont even move at all in real life make one whit of difference to its quality as a game? No. These discussions just tend to be a way for people who dont want to actually think about what goes into a good game to pretend like they still have something to say, since any goon can be an expert on how well something corresponds to “reality”. Their second awful consequence is to open the door for the silly martial arts wanna-bes that plague the fighting-game world to brag about their own oh-so-cool years of training. Bad news boys- its irrelevant. I dont really care how much time youve wasted learning to use your head for breaking things that the rest of us would just use a hammer on. How much stuff is there that really needs breaking anyway? By mentioning it at all, you only prove youd have been better served by learning to think a little instead. Dont let this be you.

Somebody else was trying to “correct” me by pointing out that Tekken (for instance) does have distance games, with running moves, etc. (as if I didnt know). Is that pointer supposed to be a joke? Not only are these “distance games” far less complex and effective (ever see anyone try and backdash 3 times to set up a running move? Why not?)- theyre not really “distance” games at all- its just a different way of getting the characters back in each others faces, where (as I said before) pretty much the entire game takes place. Total red-herring.

We should also stop to notice that nothing I said about the games depended directly on how good I am at either 2d or 3d games. This means that just saying things like “Im the world champion at SC, so you dont know what youre talking about!” is very dumb. It may be true that I dont know what Im talking about, but if so, it isnt because youre the SC world champion. Your SC skills only matter if you can use them to explain what it is (in particular) that Ive overlooked- give reasons for why your game is good- dont just tell me youre good at it and expect that to be the end of it. It proves nothing one way or the other. On its own its irrelevant, dingus.

People talk about the frame rates of Tekken moves, etc. “Ooh! Dont I sound technical! Since Im putting numbers to it, I must really be talking about something!” WTF. As if SF (and EVERY fighting game) doesnt also have them. Of course they do, and knowing the recovery rates from different distances can be very important games in them as well. Its not usually as important- thats true, but just by pointing that out, it doesnt somehow magically follow that therefore 3d games are better.

Look: The reason knowing precise frame rates, etc. are so important in Tekken has to do with the relative percentage of “punishable” moves. Now obviously, almost every move in SF as well is “punishable” in the moronic sense that you can be hit out of it. So, in the non-moronic sense, when I say “punishable”, I mean “can be punished even when not explicitly anticipated” (so just because its possible to DP a low short, that doesnt make it a “punishable” move in my sense). Sometimes, I can merely block what you were trying (rather than actively anticipating that particular move), and still be able to hit you back- just for having tried it at all. Thats what Im talking about.

There are a lot of moves like this. Since way back when, Blankas ball has been “punishable” by Dhalsims limbs. Even when Dhalsim is just sitting there, if he blocks the ball, he can make Blanka pay. A lot of supers in various games are punishable when blocked in just the same way. The number of punishable moves and the ease with which they are punished has a big impact on the effectiveness of a character, obviously. In many of his incarnations, Blankas ball is a prime weapon. When its not a safe attack initiator, hes weaker overall (witness his dramatic rankings drop from HF to Super SF2- he gained damage and useful, cancelable moves, but his ball (both of them) became a joke, and he stunk accordingly. On the other side of the coin, you have MVC2s Cable, whos AHVB makes practically everything you try against him punishable).

So while these are a few examples of punishability in 2d games, it remains true that most of the moves in 2d games cant be punished by most characters. That is to say, you cant score directly just for having blocked the moves correctly. In a lot of 3d games, that isnt the case. Comparatively, there are a huge number of punishable moves- in fact almost everything is punishable under some circumstance. So, knowing frame rates (aka the timing for how to punish the move) becomes critical, and involves a lot more of what non-3d players find such a drag about these games: memorization. You have to memorize a ton of stuff to be competitive- and its not limited simply to silly strings or throw escapes. In MVC2, you can tell a good Cable from a bad one mostly just by seeing how many moves theyve memorized how to punish with the AHVB. The same is true in most 3d games as well, but applies to every character- not just one. Effectiveness ends up having a lot to do with memorizing just when you can hit them back, and how hard you can hit once you do.

I think the 2d alternative of comparatively more unpunishable moves is a good thing. It shifts the emphasis away from reacting to individual moves, and more towards responding to their larger consequences in an overall gameplan. 3d tends to focus much more on the moment, rather than the overall flow of a match. This is fun for a lot of reasons- not least of which is the increased chances for dramatic comebacks, but I believe that the format is less able to support the deepest kinds of strategy. Its precisely the unpunishability of moves like the fireball (once its safely executed, obviously- of course you can hit someone for trying to get one out in the first place) that helps to make it so great. It sets up multiple (re: not just your character itself) threats on the screen, and its from this multiplicity- and the interaction between independent events- that complexity emerges.

Finally, there were a number of complaints that my views were “biased”. Knuckleheads: thats what it means to have a view- having a view, any view, is having a bias. If youd taken 2 seconds to think about that before posting, it would probably have been pretty obvious. Since youre clearly having some trouble expressing yourselves, allow me to help. What you meant to do was establish that Ive got not just a bias, but an unfair, or wrong bias. Of course, thats also exactly what you didnt do. I imagine you didnt do it because that would require that you have some actual reasons. It would have required thinking, instead of posting as a knee-jerk reaction. Its called having something to say. Look into it.

Instead, people were at pains to point out that since my articles appear on a site covering 2d games, I cant possibly be expected to really comment fairly. WTF. So if I like one, I cant really have anything valid to say about the other? That would make it kinda hard to explain how Alex Valle, the #1 SF player in the nation, was also the winner of the National Tekken championship, wouldnt it? Morons. “No no- lets not look at what was actually said- lets just explain why whatever he says cant possibly be any good! Yeah, thats it!”. “Its wrong because hes, uh, biased! Yeah!” A classic scrub avoidance technique- I commend you on your mastery.

This leads us to the concluding point. While I agree that there are some fundamental differences between 2d and 3d, and that each have different, independently legitimate strengths, I think too many of you are content to try and turn it into some kind of “stalemate”. Since when does “different” = “non-comparable”? We successfully compare different kinds of things all the time! In fact, different things are the only things worth comparing in the first place- obviously. You ever hear anyone compare two of the exact same things? Um, no. Ever think about why not? Because it would be incredibly boring- thered be nothing to compare. Thats what comparisons are- they put different things side-by-side. If you think that 2d and 3d games are different in some way that prevents comparisons, Im afraid youll have to provide that pesky scourge to the blabber-mouth… reasons. Why are these games “apples and oranges”? From an abstract perspective, they have a remarkable amount in common.

Real comparison is the right way to understand how both can be improved. With the way many seem inclined to leave it, it sounds like you think “Well, if you get the Tekken-style stuff right, you cant possibly also get the SF-style stuff right!” Um, why not? I think you pretty obviously could have an incredibly involved up-close fight and interesting distance strategies. Its not like one necessarily precludes the other. My fear is that this is just another symptom of that basic scrub motivator- laziness. If were sure that they cant be compared (because its all just bias, after all!), were free from the awful burden of trying to figure something out. It might be true that the two really cant be compared (although the existence of VOOT, with an involved system of both, seems to make that conclusion difficult to defend), but you should be dragged kicking and screaming to that sad conclusion- have it forced upon you- rather than passively accepting the bad news just because it saves you the trouble of thinking for yourself.

– Seth Killian


#2

Download complete son.
Glad you can tell em’ how it is. Some people just don’t understand XD
To the scrubs:
GG
NO
RE.
I play 3d fighters too.
This man knows what he is talking about. LISTEN TO HIM.


#3

I dont know how well 3D are presented in this argument because the only 3D game that degenerates into unpunishable backdashing is Tekken and modern Tekken also incorporates walls. Walls are useful in both platforms and using them for pressure is how you get people to change that. I cannot see the arguments that Seth is shutting down but they do not sound like anyone mentioned walls to pressure people from a distance. I can see the arguments targeted and I think that there was alot of nonsense thrown at the original article and as always on the internet much of this is baseless mudslinging.

I would say that the argument posed in the original article is valid but 3D games are underrepresented not so much because of bias or conspiracy but because Seth is a 2D gamer and simply doesnt have the experience playing as many different 3D fighters as 2D fighters. It would be like me (a veteran 3D player but a mid level SF4 player on a good day) writing a similar article and using just SF4 for the 2D side. I would still be hard pressed to see anyone write a better argument at the same period of time.


#4

good shit seth


#5

After reading these, I can see why you were so excited about Yatterman-2 when you were demoing UAS. Spark Fireball + Super Passion + Omotchama’s Roll all at once, bleh. Attack vectors taken to an extreme.


#6

Bring back Karate Champ… That was a real mans game! OG Ryu and Ken. duck the pots. Honestly in retrospect i would Like to see capcom or namco tackle trying to make a new arcade fighter that uses 2 analogs like Karate champ did… especially now that home consoles come with dual analog on their controllers standard. Its not like we would have to buy a new controller or anything… even tho im sure it would be hilarious to see what Madkatz and Hori come up with to please the hardcore with an “arcade experience” not to mention custom “sticks” pun intended… lol

I dunno Seth your a very smart man, but i think your almost wasting your time trying to rationalize where your comming from. I say this simply because its a lot trying to explain third strike to someone for the first time. Most people simply wont get what is going on in front of their eyes and there is nothing you can do but tell them to “pay attension” and hope they learn something. The problem i have come across with 3D games that really make them shitty 9/10 is just poor hit detection/collision or the fact that there is always some kind of enviromental qlitch that makes the game worse usually by mistake 4 example “tekken 4/VF3” stages. On the flipside its almost the exact opposite in 2D where you have this completely finite 2D plain that goes from one end to the other and can never leave that place. The actual background graphics might change but underneath it all its still the same exact space in measurement. I realize this is necessary to keep the fights contained and prevent from boring fights of people running away until time ran out. This also explains why ranged attacks are so imporant because othewise you could never actually get to someone that simply decided to run away. I would like to see devs take some risks how they used to with the old Marvel games and to a certain extend SF3 where at least you would see changes in the backgrounds with things either breaking or progression of time (like samsho/fatal fury) I think thats why i was so impressed with Africa in SSF4 (great job on that stage capcom)

Overall the biggest problem in fighting games is going to be how to make games deep AND easy to pick up… So far i havent really seen a game that has accomplished this and the ones that come close usally come with their fair share of flaws whether its in balance or just plain “fun factor”… the best examples being DOA and VF both have almost the exact same control scheme but 2 completely different learning curves. They are both fun for different reasons but you will hardly find an Expert at VF that is going to say that he would rather play DOA 4 unless its to look at some tits and mash combos to see people flipping over hand rails and down steps… in any event you always tend to get an “extreme” of one of these but never the happy medium that makes you never want to play another fighting game besides the “best” one…

Personally i would like to see Sega AM2, Namco, SNK and Capcom “donate” a select few team members from each company to make a brand new IP to test the boundries of what is truly possible when you have the cream of the crop put their minds together trying and create something new and fresh in the fighting game genre. Give this team 2 years to make the game and a reasonable budget and i bet you anything that the game they come up with puts Tekken, SF, and VF in the dirt for good. Have loctests in Tokyo/Cali/Korea/NYC and i cant see how you could go wrong… obviously this entire scenario is what would be called a “Dream Match” in SNK but sometimes its nice to dream. In the end I dont want to argue if 2D is better than 3D i want to finally have a really great undisputed “Fighting Game” that i can use to put down all the other half assed attempts of other publishers trying to cash in on the fab… Give me the Fighting game equivilant of GTA3 on ps2


#7

That was amazing Seth. Every point was spot on, and it actually made me realize a thing or two that I never thought about.

I wish more people would take the time to read your entire passage with their utmost attention.


#8

seths articles=best thing on srk


#9

Tekken is indeed, a lot of memorization and a big reason I never really got into it hardcore. It just felt to me I was losing simply because I didn’t know what was punishable or where certain moves hit. It’s like if you can upgrade yourself to an encyclopedia and hit the correct punish every time and then randomly pick between your two or three designated oki moves, you can be a beast at tekken.

But in the end it comes down to what you enjoy.

If you like to act and react and only be in the moment then I think Tekken is a good game for you.

If you prefer a more strategy based “must memorize matchups instead of move properties” kind of game, then SF is a better choice. I also feel like SF uses more spacial thinking.

I think the thing with Tekken is that you don’t really need too specific of a character strategy for each character, you generally want to fight everyone the same. If you know how to beat Feng while playing Nina, you also probably know what you should do to beat him playing any other character provided you know frames. 2D seems more about knowing SPECIFIC matchups such as how do I beat Sagat as Akuma, alright this time how do I fight Ryu as Akuma.

I think it’s a matter of preference no matter how you cut it though. Reaction and Strategy are there in both games, it’s just which each leans more towards.


#10

the chess reference

castles don’t move

that’s funny


#11

Hey Seth if you really want to do something good for the 2D fighting game world you should convince Capcom to buy the rights to Samurai Shodown from SNK so that you can give it a back-to-its-roots reboot with the SF4 engine. SNK has done horrible *horrible *things to that once great game. :sad:

:bgrin:


#12

Really enjoyed the read. Just a few hours ago I was playing Tekken 6 online and the amount that you can be juggled is insane. Plus the thing that makes 2d fighters better imo is that in alot of them, street fighter namely, is that almost everything can be countered.


#13

Why bother arguing which is “better”? It all comes down to personal preference in the end. Just like how you can argue all day about which fast food restaurant is the best, it truly does not matter in the end, because they all offer the same thing (food, obv) but in different varieties. So you like tacos? Go to Taco Bell.


#14

once again this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. i don’t know when was this written but it’s obvious he’s a scrub when he wrote this article.


#15

People always just post stupid shit up without thinking. Why do you say he’s a scrub. What makes it “obvious” that he was a scrub when writing the article?If you make a statement, back it up. English 101.