I added an “also” to my post (May also be a perceived…). I see them as 2 different reasons people will say there’s a timing difference. The actual timing difference is very minute whereas a perceived difference isn’t really a timing difference, but it’ll feel like one and it would probably be more noticeable.
that plus any input lag differences make it easy to notice/feel.
it’s possible to sense something which measurements might tell us is essentially negligible. humans are remarkably acute.
Well… A lot of audiophiles claim they can “sense” differences between music files/sound systems that they really can’t (i.e. the difference between a 320kbps MP3 vs. lossless audio), which lead them to spending thousands on equipment that don’t really make a difference.
But that’s perceiving differences in sound quality, while we’re looking for differences in speed. Humans might be a bit better at that.
so you’re saying without knowing already that we couldn’t tell the difference?
we might exaggerate sure. but the game feels different. 360 OE on a crt is pretty good though.
not everyone might notice, but some probably do 100% of the time. there is 3S and then there are lesser versions of 3S.
even if its small, differences exist and they are noticeable. they do add up. it’s immediately apparent in my experience. super links are an easy example.
so like isotopez is saying. it might be pretty small, but the actual effect of say 1 frame of input lag more, can be pretty enormous (perceived). especially if the gameplay is running faster and the inputs are running slower (like the ports). so in the end you just have that much less time to react to something. teching throws is easier on cps3, period.
sharp in contrast deez nuts
just wanted to post this here. it’s a rundown of various arcade sticks and their innate input lag. as you can see every arcade stick varies. just one more thing that could add up to a different experience. for instance when OE first came out there was a general feeling that OE lagged more on PS3 than 360, but this could just as easily be arcade stick as anything else. even a stick that is modded for several different consoles can have different delay on each platform! or a stick with no input delay on console might have poorly written drivers for PC and have delay there.
every individual component in the chain adds up to the overall experience.
Holy shit well that might explain why I thought ps3 was shittier than Xbox. I’ve only tried ps3 at last years Evo where I played about 40-50 matches on a standard TE and it felt like complete dog shit. I blamed the poor ps3 never even thinking to blame the true turd, the TE.
That also might explain why I’ve never felt comfortable on a TE on Xbox as well. About a half frame lag.
Now I guess really it doesn’t matter if you ONLY use your stick on console. But if you are borrowing a stick or primarily play arcade, this is pretty significant.
Ps3 TE omg
16.66ish ms is about a frame (assuming around 1/60 of a second).
looks like i should invest in an etokki omni lol
You sold me a bunk component Lance! Lol
Real shame too. I wanted to get a PS3 sooner than later and try some of the PSN comp. Could buy a vx-sa.
All these tests are great. So much theory flying around about lag early in the OE run. Amazing how people shut their brains down when they’ve decided a theory is the truth. Like people saying less than 1 frame of lag is imperceptible even though many people notice the difference.
I wish MadCatz was paying attention to these things when they started making expensive joysticks.
It’s hard for companies to pay attention when you have a good chunk of people in threads like that claiming 1-2 frames of lag doesn’t matter or it’s impossible to tell the difference. What a joke.
Really discouraging how much dumb you have to weed through whenever you test stuff like this. Can speak from personal experience lol, it really saps your energy and interest. At least for us it was only one person, that guy is dealing with a large group of them. You set out to get to the bottom of something and learn more, and along the way you have to defend yourself from people who think the whole thing is imaginary and aren’t interested in testing anything themselves but are 100% interested in voicing their opinion.
yeah there are some straight up dumb people is what i learned.
or maybe just it’s clear who is coming from a 3S perspective and who isn’t. like in sf4 where the difference of a single frame matters a lot less because all the hit confirms are multiple normal sequences with static timing which give you a huge window to see if things are hitting.
sorry for not having knowledge in the matter, but one question:
do better or improved input drivers compensate for input lag?
Eg if you compare Shmupmame, released 18 months ago, to the latest MAME, a lot of changes were made to drivers, input included.
If controllers can feel more responding and inputs are registered with greater accuracy, like in the arcade version, isnt this better than small input lag yet inaccurate inputs and timing?
Yes there can be an increase in performance through the use of improved input drivers. I recall using a booster for my usb ports on my last rig and suddenly finding ggpo to be playable. That changed soon thereafter but the change was definitely noticeable.
If the improved drivers do in fact make the inputs more consistent, then it’s a matter of whether or not you have more fun playing in persistent lag vs having your inputs occasionally lag. It’s also possible that the variance in the lag data for the emulators is caused by inaccurate measurements from the monitor ghosting (we didn’t have access to a CRT).
If someone is in Japan and can play the Nesica version of 3S, please, can tell to us - after test it, of course - how is the speed of this system in comparison the others?
So by comparison, how does it run on GGPO, Supercade, and fightcade etc>
Does anyone know if the default theme in Windows 8.1 causes lag like Aero in 7?
If you play in fullscreen does the theme still cause lag?
Windows 8 has aero permanently on.
You can disable Aero in Windows 8, but it’s a mildly involved process. You have to suspend winlogon.exe and then kill dwm.exe using procexp. You also have to rename some system dll files the first time you do it.
Regarding game speed, it turns out it’s very easy to find out PC emulator framerate. Just need fraps+frametime viewer. Fraps’ display already shows 59.5fps (only shows 3 decimal places) in speed-accurate emulators like Shmupmame and Groovymame. Looking at frame times, you see a frame interval correlating to that speed. The emulators themselves also indicate that they’re running at 59.583. There’s no need for adjustment for these emus.
I found this out when testing black frame insertion in Groovymame, which can only run at exact monitor refresh rate (so, in my case 120hz). This caused Fraps to show 120fps, 8.33ms frame intervals (1/2 of 16.66), and an increase in speed when I timed single and multiple rounds equivalent to the difference in speed between 59.583fps and 60fps.
TL;DR Shmupmame and Groovymame are already speed accurate without adjustment. However, my personal recommendation is to get them running at 60fps if you’re on an LCD monitor - this means video will be smooth, frame delay will be consistent, and the current tournament standard(?) is 3SOE which runs at 60fps. If you’re on a 120hz monitor, use black frame insertion to get near-crt motion smoothness.