A Brief Questioning of the Thoughts of Some People Here Regarding Gameplay Mechanics


#1

Epic name FTL.

But yes, let me just get this started. Though i understand fighters in particular SF (I’ve played several iterations of the game for quite a while) I am as people here call them, an 09’er in regards to competetive play, i live in England so the arcade scene is near non-existent so online is all i have (bitch whine etc add infinitum)

On top of this i never had a Dreamcast & they never released third Strike on any other console here meaning i never got to play that which brought alot of current mechanics & standards in balance. (Though SF has always remained comperatively balanced in regards to the amount of characters it often has per game)

In terms of my skill level i acknowledge i’m not pro, i’ve currently just hit G1 about 2 weeks ago for anyone who can get a basis off that, i play Akuma & can consistently do his usual combos & have a mild -> Poor knowledge of matchup specifics. this bit is added purely so people don’t get the wrong idea that i’m a complete scrub thinking he’s some kind of pro etc etc.

Shortcuts.

though other games have had a few basic shortcuts or have reduced how stringent they want the input to be SFIV has kinda made a big “lol pwned” to all of them by making some rediculously crazy shortcut availablities. If someone asked you how to do shoryuken did you ever think you’d tell them “lol df,d,df P” or any of the other combinations there are. the Question is:

Do people like this?

feel this is fair? Now i originally thought that this shortcut mechanics was implemented to this extreme so poor players could perform shoryukens by mashing QCF repeatedly. However if this was made for that purpose then why do characters like Vega & Guile - 2 unanimously bad ultra combos as it is - have an input that even decent players have a hard time performing? After thinking, my guess is they made this shortcut system so people could cancel easier. It still means bad players are getting the lenient treatment, but even i confess i find it difficult to do a Shoryuken off of a crouching low punch without the shortcuts. they may have done this for Xbox/PS3 control players as, from whatr i here it is easier to do quick motions on sticks. (But i have never used stick so could be completely ignorant & am only going by here-say.

imo it’d be nice if they restricted the shortcuts to things a bit closer to the actual input, rather having some moves be capable of performing from an input that is barely recognise as the move being performed. The downside to this is, kids play SF to & restricting them from doing these moves from a money standpoint is not exactly wise. Certainly it’s unlikely any game company would restrict an audience for the sake of the veteran players. (As sad as that truth may be) Hoever i do recall an old SF game (Capcom VS SNK 2 for gamecube?) had a 1 button special setting. why they couldn’t implement that, or something similair seems strange to me. (Certainly not a function for competetive play of course, but a “kids mode” kinda thing)

Plinking

could be a touchy one this. Now i’ve played RTS’s for a good amount of time & things that make your life easier are always worth having. Why select a building, then a unit, then click them 5 times when you can hotkey the fucker & hold shit + click once. (Never mind the analogy if you don’t play RTS’s) & though plinking makes an easier time out of linking i am concerned as to whether it was an intended gaming mechanic. In general.

Was Plinking in Third Strike?
do the Pro’s Daigo/Wong etc use this method?
Do you think it’s fair?

Basically, if a game has a mechanic within it that is unintended, then depending on how beneficial that mechanic is or how easy it makes an otherwise difficult function leaves me to consider whether it is justifiable to use. In terms of fairness i guess you could say Stick players have an unproven advantage over controller players as it’s far easier to plink on sticks (Bare in mind i am going by what i percieve here, perhaps i’m horribly wrong) Button layouts on controllers do not handle plinking well & sticks off are pretty much predesigned for the dexterity you need to do such things. I’m certainly not saying stick makes it godly easy, links are & always will be a difficult thing to time. & again i don’t think this matters anyway, it’s quite clear that pad players are not the elite players & thus will probably not play the elite where such a marginal benefit will warrant any afterthought. That & it’s common knowledge Sticks, once propperly accustomed to can improve peoples game. It’d be like someone losing a game of pool & complaining he only lost because he was hitting with a golf club. (Yeah, my analogies suck) But the other point is intention, clearly capcom intended for 1 frame links to be 1 frame links, so to me a function that widens this margin seems to be more of an exploit than a legitimate ability. It does potentially mean that someone with more skill can lose to someone with lesser skill purely because they are not aware of plinking or are unable to use it.

Rage/Ultra Mechanic

It’s kind of debatable whether rewarding a player for getting his ass kicked is a fair mechanic, certainly in my own opinion i feel it adds a degree of cautiousness to the game, in which so long as a character has Ultra you can be very limitted in your options. (Say, Abel with fireballs or Seth with; nion anything) But this also leeds to characters with poor Ultras in a kind of negligent loop in which they gain no benefit for having an Ultra available. (See, Vega, Guile, Fei Long) However it is entirely possible that the characters have redeemable qualities that makes the lack of scare-tactic in regards to ultra a void point. (Like Akuma who has a warehouse of options but has a very difficult to hit ultra against a competent player)

do you think Ultra should be gained by being beaten up? Or by some other method?

As i said in this it seems to break more to the balance among ultras, which is still surprisingly better than i expected, i certainly didn’t expect them to make every Ultra have a consistant balance.

Damage Scaling

Personally when i learnt exactly how Damage scaling worked i do think it is well implemented, going on a move by move basis means hard hitters don’t get a general advantage & reasonably lengthy strings can still be effective. the Ultra coutning as 2 attacks ensures you will never get a full Ultra off of a link or combo. The downside here is that lengthy strings which can take incredible skill can do less damage than a Jump RH -> fierce -> shryuken but this has been somewhat of a fault in the majority of fighters & is not limitted to SFIV.

Do you feel they have a better way to implement Damage Scaling?

Custom Combos?

Nothing really to add here, but i’m curious, like i said before the competetive side of the SF genre is pretty new to me & my tampering with Custom mechanics in previous games led me to believe they where good but not great, or perhaps if used skillfully better than the Super moves that we can consider there counterpart.

anyone explain why custom Combos are considered an abusive mechanic?

like i said i’m not trying to say they’re good/viable, my ignorance on this subject removes me from that privelage. I’d just like to know why they are so “WTF Pwn”


I guess thats it really, i thought i had more to say on the subject of mechanics but that’s all i can remember at present. Keep in mind that in regards to plinking i’m not trying to take some elite moral high-ground, if i played stick i probably would use it. Cheers for reading if you did. & hopefully this doesn’t turn in to an "I’m sick of these threads/fuckin 09’ers/your everything thats wrong with the planet reply fest.

PS - I apologise for any typos, in this post.


#2

third strike was released for ps2.


#3

I still hate Capcom for not releasing third strike in europe.


#4

I know it was, but not in the UK


#5

Good thread.

Custom combos: too easily broken, I’m glad they are not in.

Damage scaling - I’ve not figured the exact equation, but have a fairly good idea of how it works here. The hit-based exp decay of SFEX works well, in my opinion.

Ultra: it’s worked as a viable gameplay mechanic for 10 years or something in SNK games, which I generally don’t like. It’s ok, but not the best. Obviously it means the game is exciting to watch as a turnaround can happen at any point. Otherwise, I’m not sure they are needed in addition to supers.

In England you had to import the PS2 version.


#6

Shortcuts
I like the idea of shortcuts, in that, it should be about when or how you use a move rather than if you can.

I don’t know what plinking is.

Revenge Meter/Ultra Combos
Again, I like the idea of this, but it could be done a lot better. There should be some way to actually gain meter instead of losing. Using Focus Attacks is a great idea, but it’s very risky and doesn’t always pay off. Additionally, not everyone even bothers to use Focus Attacks unless it’s for cancels.

I don’t know how, but you should be able to earn meter if you’re going for a comeback.

Damage Scaling
It’s pretty good as it is, but I think that something should be done so that lengthy and hard-to-execute combos are more worth it, than simply just as a hit-confirm thing.


#7

I think the SRK shortcut is a bit much. New players are ALWAYS going to have a tough time learning how to SRK whether it’s with the old motion or the new one. The worst part about it is the ease of use for annihilating crossup attempts on wakeup. If the op moves quickly from df to db to df and spams on punch, it will easily counter most deep crossup attempts with ease.

Plinking is fine. It doesn’t really break anything. I would agree normally, but turning a 1 frame link into a 2 framer doesn’t instantly make it super easy, and it still requires a lot of skill and timing to hit the link and use a plink correctly. It was not in 3rd strike, but karas were, and they have similair concepts between them.

Ultra’s are fine, but I just think they should be more fleshed out considering how hard it is for some people to land them. Certain characters have a lot of setups for good damage and certain characters have few to no setups for little damage.

Damage scaling… meh. It is sad that some long strings do cruddy damage, but at the same side I REALLY don’t want to get hit with a less-scaled version of the RSF loop.

Custom combos have no part IMO. I’ve never liked them. Broken design behind a wall of execution. I think the only good custom combo system that’s ever existed has been smash bros. Frankly though, that system has no place being in street fighter despite being well done.

That’s my 2 cents… I better leave before the v-ism fans and smash haters come with their torches and pitchforks.


#8

Ultras and shortcuts need to go. They just reward shitty playing.


#9

I disagree. More often than not they punish shitty playing instead. If you fall for an ultra think about what you did wrong as opposed to the Ultra system itself.


#10

Shortcuts are a joke, the rest is fine


#11

why do people hate shortcuts?
it doesn’t interfere with your playing if you’ve already mastered the regular movements.


#12

d/f,d,d/f is the only shortcut method that i’d be mad if they took out. personally i dont think that the majority of high level players like any of the shortcuts besides the one that i mentioned. they REALLY hate the shortcuts when they are playing bison as well cause it causes overlap problems with his ultra and teleport. the only overlap problems ive had with chun (my main) is getting out an ex hasan shu instead of ultra, and every once in a blue moon i’ll get out a super when all i wanted to do was walk back then forward then back then forward again and do F+MK but instead i get a super… (because of how long the input buffer is on ultras and supers).

but yeah, easy motions havent really hampered me much at all.

i dont think so, 99.9% sure.

if they find that it helps them with some form of execution you can be sure that they do, theres no reason not to, unless there execution is so great that plinking gives them no more of an edge than just doing things the regular way.

??? of course it is… everyone has access to them, though certain characters make better use of it than others.

i personally dont really like the way ultras are handled on 4, but i learned to deal with them, and in many cases win because my opponent had one and i didnt (block and punish)

as far as not all ultras having the same utility… yeah thats a good point. they should all be rather easy to land… just have different setups, with damage being based on the ease of the setup IE an EASY setup does ALOT of damage scaling, just like rogs cr.lpx3xx headbutt>ultra.

i think it would be fine no matter how they go about letting the player get them, its just that they need to be tweaked, kind of like make it so that no ultras have invincibility on start… leave that to supers.

currently the only ways they balanced ultras was to make them non cancelable into, as well as make them count as 2 moves when combod into.

imho damage scaling weakens the low damage characters too much while not doing much to the powerhouses like sagat, rufus… thats my only real complaint…

that bigger combos that are more than possible in this game actually do alot less than much easier, simpler, and smaller ones, so they not only arent viable but are actually are quite stupid to even attempt.

in every version of streetfighter that has had some sort of custom combo they have always found ways to BREAK them. EVERYTIME.

i LOVE the mechanic of custom combos cause of sheer fun factor when i land one, but it sucks to sit there and see your character getting juggled for 30 secs while losing like 75% of there life.

i’m glad that they’ve been omitted from 4. good riddance.

-dime


#13

I disagree with this because some moves are supposed to have their power balanced with their input difficulty - specifically referring to the SPD and the dragon punch here.


#14

the only thing mechanic wise I am unhappy about is direction correction.

If I am jumping over someone and they do a DP to the right, I should not get caught by a D to the left. Either the person should do a right facing DP or they should just throw out whichever punch they used, or whatever attack a reverse DP would do.

This isn’t putting ease of access in. making movements easier to do is one thing, correcting someones mental error is another. the person should have to choose to do a DP behind them if they expect someone to jump over them.

Imagine a QCF SPD…


#15

Shorcuts is the reason why there is a lot of bad shoto players out there.
Instead of learning the basics of sf4, they just random dp/ulta/super all the match.
Even though the game is about zoning and footsies they do jump a lot.
I would prefer to lose and enjoyed the game instead of winning with ease, i learn nothing from this

I had some shoto players jumping to me till they get dizzy and perfected them and some of them were higher ranked than me…wtf!?

They should learn when/how to use normals and specials 1st, after that they should try the flashy stuff.


#16

yes it does, shortcuts net you so many unwanted SRKs. It’s retarded.


#17

i still think the main problem is a fucking combo.

ridicolous reversal window+shortcuts+autoguard(maybe…)


#18

FTW.

Especially when crossing up/ baiting an Ultra out of someone, and the POS game auto corrects them to go in the opposite direction they inputted it to. The fuck is that about? I’m looking @ you Blanka.

Yes it does. Try dashing and then throwing a hadouken right after. DP 99% of the time.

I’m a Viper player, and it sure as hell pisses me off when I get a random Super when Seismo chipping someone because of the retarded QCFx2 shortcut.

Also getting Seismo when trying to do a simple c.MK xx Mp.TK because I hit DF when going for my QCB.

SF4 shortcuts took a shit on my execution. My hands came from 3s and Alpha where inputs were strict (not so much 3s,) so when c.MK xx Hadouken comes out as c.MK xx SRK it sure as hell isn’t my fault.

Reversal windows need to be fixed too, and LP.SRK needs a nerf out the ass, even when I mained shotos I thought it was unfair I could do that shit like 5 times in a row and have my opponent just sit there and take it, unless they had a SRK too.


#19

i dont have this problem at all… from what positions are you havuing these problems???

i have more problems with trying to do an srk and instead i get a super… which is a problem with the supers shortcut not the srk’s.

the only problem i have with getting out srk’s instead of my intended move is when i walk forward and throw a fireball.

but thats not a SHORTCUT problem, its an easy, lenient buffer, problem.

-dime


#20

^^autoguard?^^

Chers for the replies, give some interesting insights