A few questions about SF3 3rd Strike


#1
  1. Are reversals frame perfect? I’m having a really hard time getting out reversals. I know that SF4 spoiled me, but damn is it hard.

  2. Is the joystick deadzone different on 3rd Strike than it is on USF4? I’m having a hard time getting out uppercuts and 360° motions, aswell as supers.
    It feels like down-forward is a lot harder to trigger on 3rd Strike, really reminds me of how arcade sticks feel to me.
    (I’m playing on FightCade; maybe that has something to do with it. I’m just very used to the minimum range needed for directions in USF4 on pad)

  3. Is it possible that 3rd Strike isn’t as beginner friendly as SF4? (not that I would call SF4 beginner friendly either, but you get my point)
    The parry confuses me. It makes me feel like my footsies don’t matter since my opponent can (technically) just parry everything I throw out.

The last point is what I wonder about the most. 3rd Strike feels like Marvel, the gap between beginners and good players is ridiculous.
In USF4 I can at least understand what I’m losing to, but when I play people in 3rd Strike, I don’t understand what to take from my losses.
Playing against Urien feels like Honda vs Guile in ST, but without Urien having a problem to approach. Once he got you on the ground, the unblockables just come raining down on you.
And Chun…I’m just going to keep my opinion about her to myself.


#2
  1. Not sure, but I’d guess it’s stricter in 3s.
  2. USF4 is very lenient on execution. 3s is pretty strict.
  3. There’s a big difference in who is playing 3s and who is playing USF4. The numbers I’m about to throw out are a complete guess, but you’ll understand what I’m trying to say. The population of noobs playing 3s is 1%. It’s basically you, me, and a few other people. Furthermore, there are a good portion of people playing that have been playing for over a decade. The population of noobs playing USF4 is more like 20%.

I’ve heard that 3s is NOT a footsies game. There is little to no zoning. I don’t understand what to take from my losses either, but I really like the game and I’m going to keep playing, losing, and having fun. 3s has a lot of charm imo. I love the graphics, music, sound effects, and characters. I don’t know how to play, but those things make me want to keep trying and learning.


#3
  1. I’m pretty sure 3S has a two frame reversal window, though it could be one. Someone who is more of a 3S junkie would have to answer that. I only play it drunk.

  2. What controller are you using? If you’re talking about using an analogue stick on a pad to play, it could indeed have different sensitivity settings on fightcade than on USF4. Hint: analogue pads suck for digital input games. This is one of those reasons why. Try the d-pad. As far as general execution, 3S is more strict than SF4, but has some shortcuts of its own. SF2 fans find it lenient.

  3. Maybe, maybe not. In some ways the execution is easier, e.g., less dependent on links. Parry can be kind of daunting until you get a handle on it. It is also a very mature game with a bunch of old die hards.


#4

The execution required for specials and supers is a lot stricter and requires a lot more precision in 3S than in SF4, so I suggest practicing.

As for the beginner-friendliness, the more experienced playerbase (especially on fightcade) makes it tougher when you start out. Funnily enough, I honestly think 3S has a smoother learning curve than SF4*, but that doesn’t mean much if you just get stomped. See if you can find someone not too far from your level to practice with, it will help you get used to the game.

As for the parry “negating footsies”: if you’re constantly getting parried during the ground game, you’re probably being very predictable. Or, to put it another way, if parrying wasn’t a part of the game, you’d probably suffer the exact same fate, but you’d get stuffed, whiff punished or jumped in on rather than parried. It’s just that parrying sticks out more, since it’s more or less the ultimate call-out on your habits.

  • this is based on my experience with the two games when I started out, I personally found 3S a lot more approachable than SF4, though that might not be the case for everyone.

#5

I’m using the 360 controller and its joystick. I’ve never been a huge d-pad fan when it comes to fighting games.
(and let’s face it, the 360 has a very shitty d-pad)
The only game I play on D-Pad is KoF98, and only because I’m required to because of my available options.


#6

I dunno, the parry feels like an advanced version of the Focus in SF4. Its applications are so overwhelming, that I can’t grasp it.
It adds so much more thought to the game. I can barely wrap my head around focus attacks.
And the game being faster in general is also a thing that’s very difficult to get used to. I’m trying to think of what I can do, then all over sudden Urien already dashed up and grabbed me.
(to be fair, FightCade does have more input delay than USF4, mostly)
To me, the learning curve is much rougher than USF4.

I’m missing the ability to read people quickly enough.
I hope that with SF5 going back to basic, I can actually learn this aspect of the game and transfer it over to older games.


#7

I personally don’t like losing when I don’t know how to prevent it in the future.
I want my efforts to be visible. But I can’t do that when I get utterly destroyed.
Just my perspective.


#8

One thing I have to give 3rd Strike though, these good players made me really think hard about what buttons I was going to press.
I had to play intelligently to get at least a few hits/combos going.
In the end I lost, but some of these rounds were the best I’ve played in my life so far.

As much as it isn’t a footsie game, I do seem to have learned quite something about my spacing from these 2 sessions.
And also that Ryu might be a way better choice for me than Cammy in USF4. His play style seems to fit me WAY better.


#9
  1. Look up guides for frame data for 3rd Strikel I’m sure there’s extensive research and guides if you search for em.

  2. Could just be your controller. I don’t really have much of a problem on 3rd strike compared to USFIV, though Fightcade does generally play more of a part in feeling that difference. Then again, Dudley feels natural to me no matter which iteration of him I play, so I think it’s subjective based on experience with the game and its characters.

  3. SFIV is definitely more accessible to newbies since Capcom wanted to expand their audience, and that’s why this time with V they want to strike a balance between helping newbies understand how to play the game while throwing the hardcore scene a bone by fixing some of the inherent problems in IV and making it feel more like III. 3rd Strike is gonna kick your ass but it’ll reward you once you continue to get a strong feel for a character and adapt.

  4. The gap is only so wide because the game is so old. If 3rd Strike was still the newest, hottest thing out there, the gap between the greats and those who aren’t so great wouldn’t be as staggering. Consider this too: The Online Edition on PSN and XB Live made it easier for newbies to access an older game and be part of the hype. It was why a lot of new kids were trying out the game for the first time, and the gap didn’t feel so wide since it was relatively popular and games weren’t hard to find. Once the new gen consoles came out, it wasn’t as accessible and people turned to Fightcade to get their 3rd Strike fix, but even then the crowd of players that we see regularly on Fightcade isn’t nearly as high because more players are on other fighting games or other games in general.

I highly recommend that you continue to give 3rd Strike plenty of play time so you can appreciate what a fighting game should be, and don’t get discouraged from getting heavily bodied.


#10

To be honest, using analogue devices to control digital inputs is sub-optimal (particularly for parrying). The 360 controller is pretty awful for fighting games. There are a lot of better options for pads on the PC. Give a look around tech talk.


#11
  1. Yes. But oki in general is different in 3rd Strike since you want to back roll on wake up (hit down as you hit the ground) for every knowndown (no hard knockdowns in the game except from supers) or go for parry/block OS.
  2. Nope, the game in general doesn’t give a shit about “deadzones” since it’s designed for digital control.
  3. Honestly, in terms of tech, it’s actually easier to get into 3rd Strike because of how much more important footsies are in it compared to IV. Unlike Focus, Parry does not work as a strong anti-footsie tool due to the high-low component (where you h cannot parry both standing and crouching at the same time). You’ll notice that some of the most dominant, top tier characters in 3S, such as Chun-Li and Ken, are good because of footsies. Aside from Yun, most of the characters who rely on advanced BS are mostly only mid or even low tier. As has been stated, if you’re getting parried alot, then it’s because you’re getting predictable.

#12
  1. Mmm… strangely enough, in all my time with 3S I never bothered looking up the reversal window timing. Still, two frames is the number that pops into my head, so I’m going to say that.

  2. Not really going to be a difference there. What you are experiencing is likely just a much more strict control scheme. Having taught numerous people 3S, some of which came from SF4, I can attest that most of them coming from newer fighters, tended to feel like they couldn’t even get hadokens consistently. This is why I do recommend anyone learning fighting games as a whole to learn execution in older games with a more strict inputs. That said though, 3S has my favorite input leniency, it’s still lenient enough, once you get used to it. No silly shortcuts, the ones that are there are useful and make sense.

To be more precise, if you are curious, I’ll quote myself from a previous post about the input shortcuts…

[details=Spoiler]Third Strike’s input leniency on supers is as you are assuming. 3S values the diagonals in a super motion more than the forwards. Your first quarter circle must consist of all three inputs, the second needs to only contain down and down forward. This is the opposite to SFIV, where it requires the second forward over the diagonal. If you do a quarter circle in that game, then stop in the diagonal, you will get a shoryuken, this is why even at high level play you see EX shoryukens come out at times. It is an obnoxious “shortcut.”

3S super buffer variants: (Assuming you are on 1P side)

236236 : Super
23623 : Super
23626 : Normal (corresponding to whatever button you pressed)
2366 : Normal or Hadoken if done very quickly
2323 : Shoryuken
2626 : Normal
26236 : Shoryuken
2623 : Shoryuken

For completion’s sake:

  • Dashes eat forward inputs, so you have to do another forward to dP after a dash.
  • Hitting back will negate any forward you do for a DP (This is more or less a universal rule of fighting games at this point, though I think if you do the motion fast enough, you still might get a DP, but you’d have to do it insanely fast.)
  • Half circles are the same concept, the first diagonal is necessary to getting the move, the second diagonal is the end point for the motion.

I personally am a huge fan of SF3’s input leniency. I wouldn’t mind certain changes, but overall, it is a very good foundation, where you get most everything you want when you want it, with enough shortcuts to keep people from having to be completely precise. I could be biased, since I learned fighting game execution in 3S, but, in my experience, if you can do it in 3S, you can do it in any game. SFIV was the exception, because as noted above, I too was victim of DPs over supers, because of that silly input leniency on shoryukens. I would like that changed, and little else. Keep the forward requirement on supers if you want, just make sure a DP doesn’t come out in it’s stead. It is TOO much for a DP to come out after an entire quarter circle.[/details]

(I’ll note here as well, that those shortcuts are for Ryu specifically. Some shortcuts are character specific. Taking Ryu’s Joudan half circle for instance that requires the FIRST diagonal, some half circle moves require the last diagonal. More of a frame of reference.)

  1. Hah, absolutely yes. Pretty sure for quite a long time 3S has been touted as one of the hardest fighting games to get into because it is a game where if you are better than someone, you will win with a near 100% consistency. It is one of my favorite things about 3S, it’s a game of power levels. Rarely if ever will you lose due to some shenanigan (At least once you understand the match-ups a decent amount), you will lose because you screwed up, or your opponent outplayed you. Punishing and brutal to new players yes, but easily one of the more endearing parts of 3S, because once you get beyond someone’s skill level, you will win, without fault.

In regards to the parry system, yes, it takes quite a long time to understand the parry game. There is a surprising amount of depth to it, and learning to play around it can be difficult, especially for a SFIV player or a purebred SF player. Parries are one of the most game altering mechanics to be put in a fighter beyond the basic mechanics, which is why dedicated 3S players tend to have very different mindsets than those who come from other fighters. Think less of parries destroying footsies, and more that it enhances the thought required to participate in footsies, because that’s the actual case, despite what others tend to say. It’s a bit less simple than just judging range and priority, this is why you will see a lot of small pauses in 3S, something you don’t really see much in other fighters. This is a result of the parry game at work, small pauses in offense or defense can dodge or bait so many things, parries included. In other games, most people would think this pretty stupid except at the highest of play where respect for opponents is higher, as most people will just hit a button if you’re close to them. However, parries, and red parries mean that EVERYTHING in 3S is unsafe, which means everything must be mixed up, not even just different buttons, but when you press the button. Maybe you wait a frame this time, two the next, mixing up how you play is exactly what 3S is about. Never work within the confines of one strategy, or you’ll lose.

One of the people I taught SF3 to a bit was an SFIV player mostly, and he HATED the fact that someone could jump in at him, he would anti-air them, it would get parried, and he’d lose. He couldn’t wrap his mind around the concept of anti-airing being more complex than just hitting a button when someone jumps. Like everything else in 3S, it needs to be mixed up, and most importantly, it needs to be a risk-reduced strategy often times. So use the best anti-air that offers the least risk towards you if it fails. This is why dash unders are one of the more preferable anti-air options, as it turns their offensive option into yours-- if they hit a button, they will get hit due to trip guard. Still flawed though, as they could read the dash under and not throw a button and parry you upon landing. Ah… why is 3S so good? Everything has an answer in 3S, every moment, every frame, there is something you could be doing to change how the scenario would work out.

3S is freedom, and it’s why I love it.

Just remember, 3S requires a mindset all it’s own. I have every intention of going into SFV as an SF3 player, so I can confuse the hell out of people who play me like I did in SFIV. People tend to think 3S players impatient but it’s very much the opposite. If there is one thing you’ll learn from playing 3S: it’s respect. When we’re getting pressured, we let it play out. Do all the lows you want, all the throws, all the overheads, we’ll just block and wait, wait for the one hole in your offense, then blow you up for it. Mash you get parried.

Course – MIXUPS, always a time to mash. Gotta throw them off. Hah.

Anyways, even if I haven’t been playing 3S much in the last couple months, if you have any specific questions, by all means send me or one of the many other 3S players here a message.


#13

3s is absolutely a footsie game. Ground game is the #1 most important thing to learn, even for characters who can attack by jumping in. Parry adds an extra layer, you shouldn’t think of it as negating footsies because that thinking will hold you back from improving IMO.

The easiest way to get around parry is to delay your attacks, or use their parry attempt to close distance. it has classically been explained as “if they are guessing parry, just walk up and throw them.” As you get better at the game you’ll recognize the spaces more and where people might buffer a parry, and you’ll be more aware of the risk vs reward of the options you have.

in Tokyo, players actually rarely guess parry because it’s not worth the risk. I’d say it’s a general trend that the more parries you see in your matches, the lower the level of those matches is.

If you post either a link to your fightcade replays or a video recording, we could offer constructive feedback. This might sound surprising, but a good 95% of fightcade players are not super strong by tournament standards (the same applies to XBL and PSN). there are a few players who are quite good, but the majority are not. my guess is that you are losing to game and matchup unfamiliarity rather than being outplayed at this point.

The easiest/best advice I can give a new player is: start thinking about the risk vs reward of every situation. every time you are about to attack, or guess parry, or throw always ask

  1. what do I get if I’m right
  2. what happens if I’m wrong
  3. how likely am I to be right

keep a running set of flashcards inside your brain where you remember how various situations go. what happened when you were in the corner vs Chun? how did your opponent react to your offense when you had him in the corner? how’d it work out?

regarding Chun - to my knowledge none of the strong Chun players of any country play on fightcade. if you are losing to Chun, you aren’t really losing to the strength of the character, you are losing due to unfamiliarity. I think you should not form any opinions about characters or matchups yet, because it sounds like your level of play is still quite low. for now, just play a lot and pay attention to everything that happens.


#14

If someone gets to dash up in your face, you need to be more active. Put some moves on the screen. Do a low forward buffered with special/super. If an opponent dashes into that, he pays dearly.

Also, this is going to sound weird considering how much 3S is warped around parrying, but I’d advice you not to focus too much on the parry when you’re starting up. I’ve seen new players focus too much on parrying stuff, and then fall completely apart once someone takes advantage of that. I think I played for two years before I started parrying things on regular basis.


#15

Oh, whoops. I got my info that it wasn’t a footsie game from Maximilian.


#16

What parry does to the game is a very controversial issue. Some argue it ruins footsies, others argue it makes them more deep. I’m not going to weigh in as these sort of subjective “what game mechanics are good/bad” arguments aren’t really what the newbie dojo is for. There are plenty of parry threads on SRK already.


#17

I have no idea what “236236” is supposed to mean, sorry.
I honestly don’t know how to do a red parry, and what it does either.

I guess I’m just too new to 3rd Strike. I keep forgetting about whiffing buttons to build meter and stuff like that.
And players on FightCade tell me that I need to learn meaties for 3rd Strike, I never looked into that, because it feels like an advanced tool and I don’t feel ready for it yet. I got enough problems with spacing and other basics for now.
To be fair, I don’t know how to practice 3rd Strike. I don’t have a 360/PS3, nor does FightCade allow me to play the game by myself in a practice mode or something, at least not that I know of.
Hard to improve just by playing.


#18

3S is a rush down / footsie game. Most normals are reaction whiff punishable making footsies a very big thing. There is no practical zoning.

On FightCade it honestly feels close to 50% noobies / 30% intermediates that love the game / 18% people who know there stuff decently well / 2% solid players

FightCade is definitely a place to play and learn. Source: Playing over 10 years.


#19

I’m sadly not in a position where I can afford a new controller at the moment :confused:
I’ve been thinking about switching to a stick in the near future though. By the sound of it, that wouldn’t work much better for 3rd Strike either, huh?
Like, I REALLY don’t want to play on D-Pad. Doing half circles in KoF98 on D-Pad is enough for me, I don’t need more of that.

3rd Strike is fun, but if I’m really required to play on D-Pad to get the most out of it, then I’ll pass.
No reason to try to get good if that is the case.


#20

Most of the time it’s fun, sadly a lot of the players I’ve met really didn’t give me good advice on what I need to look out for though.
The (FightCade) community doesn’t feel that inviting to new players.
Maybe that was just tough luck and I ran into all the not so great people in a row.