A question for all the goukens

gouken

#1

Hey everyone. I am a very long time lurker, who has finally registered.

I have played SF4 on PC for quite a bit and got decent enough that I always beat my friends and family and did pretty good in online matches. Then I played someone from here in a gouken mirror match and they smoked me hard lol. I won a round and then was not a factor lol. So I started reading and learning.

Well I got tired of waiting to see if capcom was ever going to release SSF4 on PC and so I ordered an xbox360, SSF4, and a year of live. Should be here by the end of the week.

All that out of the way, my question:
I have read all of the changes made to the old man, frame data, loss of properties to flip kick, etc.
My question is How does he feel now? Is he more rush down then before? Can he move around the screen better? Basically I wanted to know if he played the same or is it like Gen where I have to relearn how to play him?
Thanks guys and keep those vids coming!


#2

You just have to be slightly more careful. Because Demon Kick no longer has overhead properties, that move has definitely gotten worse. But as far as its usage is concerned, it’s still just as effective provided that you use it at the right times and manage to catch the enemy while they’re vulnerable. I think it’s better for me because it forces me to be more conservative with the move. I don’t know if this is happening for anyone else, but there are times when I feel like his j.MK has gotten worse. For some reason I’m getting DP’ed out of cross-ups on hit a lot more often than I used to. Maybe I’m just getting rusty.

Anyway, Gouken… If you use his Ultra 1, then you’ll feel right at home if you’re familiar with Gouken from Vanilla. His Ultra 2 however, opens a whole new can of worms. I’m having so much fun using Gouken and messing around with that thing. Ultra 2 sacrifices damage in return for stun, but on top of that, it also allows for an interesting set of combos that normally wouldn’t be possible with Ultra 1. For example, if you catch people in the air with a double-hit j.MP, you can actually follow-up with a Denjin and land it, as opposed to anything else which would require a single-hit j.MP if you wanted to do anything after. Denjin’s wall-bounce allows for interesting follow-ups under the correct circumstances, but the one thing I love about the Denjin now is that you can do crazy stuff like:

In the corner… “j.HP -> c.HP xx EX Palm -> HP Hadoken -> LP Palm -> Denjin”

If you think Gouken stunned fast in Vanilla, then he does it even faster now!


#3

Thanks for the reply man.
I want to play around with ultra II just because it is something new but the damage scaling looks to be about the same as in vanilla from the vids I have watched.
So when you stun them after a nasty combo…what then? You really can’t do much more damage at that point.
I know that you just reset but that seems…iffy. The only reset I was really good at was mixing in the flip throw (was really good at getting people with that even crouching).

So is doing damage or causing stun separate paths gouken has to take or can you do both? Am I even making sense?


#4

For me, I find that the trick is to use the Denjin so that you bring the guy to the brink of stun and then stun them using a reset or a bait-and-punish, that way you get the most out of the next combo. A big combo into Denjin can really rack up the stun points on opponents, but yes it does require you to be a bit more aggressive to keep that offensive pressure on so that you keep hitting the guy.

I would like to say that both Ultras dish out damage, but just in different ways. Ultra 1 is good for direct, crush-your-face damage where you literally just blast them with your fist, no questions asked; whereas Ultra 2 is damage in the sense that it creates damage “opportunities” which will come more from your normals and specials rather than the actual Ultra itself. Depends on your play-style and who you’re fighting. Against someone like T. Hawk or Gief, I would opt more for Ultra 1 just because their high life warrants that I have something that can take a huge chunk off their health just to be safe. But against say, Seth or Akuma, Denjin makes things much more interesting. I can’t really comment on which is “better” per se since I like them both. The most amazing thing I’ve ever done was have my Gouken get beaten down to a sliver of health, and then making a come-back by dizzying the guy while still having my Ultra 2, and then landing a full-charge Denjin while they were still seeing stars. Hooooh boy!

Right now, I’m using Denjin as a way of making my Gouken’s normals-game more effective, not always relying on a 50% Ultra 1 which I can get free from a backthrow. I know I’m restricting myself because who WOULDN’T want a potentially game-ending Ultra 1, but like it because it helps me find new ways to use my character.


#5

I feel on certain moves his range of motion was compromised


#6

Thanks for the insight guys I do appreciate it.
Phoenix, your indepth answers just show me how much I have to learn lol. Now I have to choose ultras to match the other chars? lol
I see what you mean about balancing the stun meter to your advantage though. Just wish it was visible…
Also I like the idea of raunwynn’s to use the kongo as a “poke” not really as a counter.

Damn you guys are good lol.


#7

You don’t necessarily HAVE to choose your Ultras based on your opponent’s characters. Which Ultra you use is entirely based on your preference depending on how you like to play. I merely choose mine because I think sometimes Ultra 1 works better on certain characters while other times Ultra 2 works better for others. But in the end they can both be effective in a match when used effectively.

I think we all have much to learn. In a game like SF where no two rounds are ever the exact same, the learning never stops. But in any case, happy fighting!


#8

gk

his nerfs were disappointing at first, but in comparison to the rest of the cast he is actually more balanced. the nerf on dive kick is not that bad considering a blocked dive kick can still lead to a block string or a throw.

the nerf on whiff demon throw was killing me at first, but i learned to escape wakeup pressure in different ways. probably helping my game.

i do use his new overhead a good bit when playing against charge characters, i just get close and when they are too predictable with the downback charge i let loose on it. before it was so dang slow you couldn’t catch anyone.

his new cr lk is nice too, just to throw out here and there.

i really think the active frames/or hitbox on cr hp were changed, i really feal like i trade a lot less now. it is a better anti air somehow.

im not a big fan of denjin just yet. i just cant let go of shinsho, its just to damn strong.

the devs made all the characters’ exploitable moves less so. and i think they did this to gouken minimally but it has forced me to play less gimmicky and predictable.


#9

I’m glad I’m not the only person who felt that his c.HP got better! XD


#10

Damn Fedex!!
My Xbox 360 will not get here til monday…
Ah well back to SF4 on PC til then. I appreciate the help and when I get it I am sure I will be back in to pick your brains again!


#11

The last time I was waiting on my 360, I went to Walmart and just bought the el cheapo version and returned it for my $$$ back when Microsoft sent my Elite back to me. :slight_smile:

I love their return policy!!!


#12

LOL Yeah I have used that before. When my air compressor cracked a seal (defect) and I had to finish a project, I just went and bought one of their cheapo 5 gallon jobs and finished it. Brought my real one to Harbor freight and they ordered the part and I was good to go in 5 days.
Returned the other one to wallie world that day.

But yeah, I don’t have the disc yet either (everything in one package) so I guess I can wait til then. Just sucks. There are people still on the SF4 PC just no one wants to play any player matches anymore.


#13
  1. Damage reduction hurt him alot. Against good players you won’t get too many openings so you have to make the most out of every one of them. But with damage reduction, you are just simply not able to do as much damage as you did in vanilla.

  2. Speaking of openings, the nerfing of godflip really hurt here. It took a mixup option away and that always hurts.

  3. Some of his normals are better. Nothing suddenly became godlike but they are still better.

  4. I don’t like Denjin that much. Like I said, you don’t get too many chances against better players so you have to make the most out of them so I’ll take damage over stun. The damage scaling makes it so that you really have to plan ahead for that Denjin stun to be worth it. And even then, if you are good enough to be able to plan the stun ahead of time and actually carry it out with Gouken, you were gonna win the match anyways regardless of which Ultra you chose.

One really good thing about it is that it gives you something to do with a double-hit j.mp. I will often pick Denjin against characters who are in the air alot, like Seth and Vega.

  1. Online is not kind to Gouken in terms of frequently used characters. You will see alot of Ryu, Dictator, Boxer, Guile and Dudley. The Boxer matchup is as bad as ever, if not worse due to the flip-kick nerf. Dictator got a great defensive tool in U2 and you have to be more careful harassing Guile with fireballs upclose due to U2.

#14

For me, one of the biggest changes for Gouken was his focus attack frame data. He’s now +6 on block from a level 2 focus attack when dash cancelled. IIFC in vanilla he was -2 on block from a Level 2. That’s huge. I have found myself fishing for focus bait a lot more now.


#15

I got my xbox 360 and year of live n ssf4 today! Still waiting for the vga cable so I can play it on my 28" computer monitor. For now I have it hooked to my crappy tv and well it’s crap. Hard to learn the new stuff when the screen is so much farther away and so damn blurry. Hell I was wondering what the heck was going on when I couldn’t do the Denjin…it is because it is all kicks and the tv is too blurry for me to make that out. Ah well should be here in a few days.

EDIT

Got the cable today. For some reason my 1920x1200 monitor does not like the 1920x1080 setting through that cable but 1680x1050 looks great. Busting through arcade on hardest to learn the timing again then I will hop online and take my lumps lol.

Thanks again for all the info you guys have shared in this thread and the board in general. It is so damn helpful to have first hand info then what something is “supposed” to be.