Adon changes for next patch (2015?)

adon

#1

Hey fellows … as rumors say that there maybe will be another patch that will include some tweaking/balancing I ask you to contribute to a new changelist for Adon that hopefully will make him the perfectly balanced fighter.

I want to emphasis that I really want to have a changelist not a wishlist … I know that we all can think about really nice changes that would make Adon better but keep in mind that Adon was and still is a top tier character with only a few weak spots and does not need major changes at all. I also fully understand that all of us will have different playstyles and therefore other opinions on what should be better or fixed. In my opinion Adon is in the first place a footsie character with good defense and the ability to create strong pressure if he gets close … I am not a big fan of senseless JK pressure and fine with the JK nerfs.

If we get a good discussion going on … I will put together a changelist that we “hopefully” all agree.

So … what are “my” changes:

#1 Faster Overhead  Reduce start up to 20 frames (+1 on hit / -2 on block)
#2 Faster close HK  Reduce start up to 6 frames and add 1 active frame (4 active frames)
#3 Faster cr.HP  Reduce start up to 8 frames and add 1 active frame (4 active frames)
#4 Improve cr.MK  Extend the hitbox forward to give it a bit more range (to match the animation)
#5 Improve JT  Give all JTs a bigger horizontal hitbox and reduce recovery on light JT by 2 frames (+3 on hit / -2 on block)
#6 IAJK  Reduce hight restriction by 1 frame

Explanation:

#1 Improve his footsie and make his OH viable … 20 frames is still slow
#2 Make it a reliable AA against neutral jump and make the corner reset easier (nearly impossible on some chars that juggle low)
#3 Make IAJK > cr.hp easier … improve his RFA comboability
#4 Improve his footsie and make this button finally a solid cr.mk
#5 This is mainly to give him the ability to hit the full cast (or atleast 85%) with JT after a FA crumble and to make light JT a bit better at baiting stuff
#6 IAJK is the hardest TK special in the game … this change would solve two things … it will make IAJK just a bit easier and would make it -1 if you hit @ the lowest height (this nerf was unnecessary)

So … in the end it is maybe a bit too much and if I could only get 4 out of 6 I would prioritize 1,2,5,6.

Looking forward for your feedback/input guys.


#2

One change would be absolutely amazing … making far standing HP super & RFA cancelable.

For the RFA cancel it would be necessary to add active frames or hit stun so that the RFA can combo from the st.HP.

This would open counterhit set ups from close MK/MP (1 framer / 2 framer) and a very nice CH hit confirm … with this close MP would have more reward for scoring the CH and the -4 on block would be ok if I can get a 2 frame link into 120 damage > RFA > followup combo.

Also … IAJK > far HP > super … would be amazing … XD


#3

I would like the damage and chip back on the JK and AJK.

I would want the IAJK frames back but understand why we cant have them back.

cl.HK as B+HK is a must i am so sick of getting cl.hk when i want st.HK

Biggest thing i always wanted. After ex.jk(1hit) and Ex.JT that you can juggle with any button.

I would love corner ex.JT then nj.hk or nj.mk xx jk.

Don’ t think this would be to broken. It would make Adon more fun.


#4

All JT +1 more hit/block stun and forcing stand would be amazing !!! Reducing the recovery by 1 frame would be the way to go … XD

1 frame faster start up and slightly better hitbox would also be very welcome …

But still … cr.hp being a 8 frame start up button and a 6 frame close HK would be enough for me … everything else is cake …

Actually … A better lower Hitbox for standing HP and close LP would also be very very welcome and less pushback on standing far HP … for combos into cr.mp and CH combos into itself … god … that would be so lovely …


#5

cl. HK in its current state is just garbage. Make it a command normal. It would be super cool to make it cause a juggle state on counterhit, but honestly I’m just sick of whiffing cl. HK on a crouching opponent.

It would be supercool to get chip damage back on JK as well, but overall Adon isn’t in a bad spot.


#6

A flat 100 damage for AA JK would be nice.

IMHO I don’t think that it is necessary to have close HK be a command normal … it would be crazy good … but … faster startup would allow a better proximity AA with it AND it would make corner juggles after 1hit lk RJ easier …


#7

Either way, it needs a change. It’s basically useless. I would prefer it to be a command normal (3xk, because I don’t want it coming out when I’m walking forward or backward going for regular stHK) and if they have to tone down the damage because it’s really good, fine. Juggle state would be AMAZING but way too good.


#8

Just recently was told that Adons close MP & MK has only +2 on a counterhit … 8(

THIS IS REALLY BULLSHIT … so Adon is not able to combo close MP (CH) into cr.hp > RFA followup …

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLSHIT !!! CAPCOM please change this !!!


#9

To sum it up:

Fix the bugs … all pokes should have correct counterhit data … and fix the trade/CH problem.

cr.hp 8 frame start up and 1 frame more active frames
close HK 5 or 6 frame start up
cr.mk better horizontal hitbox (more range) to fit the animation
AA medium and light JK 100 damage
less pushback on far HP so you can link far HP > far HP on counterhit

That would be 100% perfect and nothing else would be needed … the nerfs for the JKs and IAJKs are fine … all this would give him so nice CH possibilities … something Adon does lag a bit currently.

This changes would be fantastic … trust me … would open such nice mind games and scoring CH with close MK/MP or cr.hp would lead to nice damage & stun. Combos like CH close MK > far HP > cr.mp > light RJ will be possible … atleast on some of the cast. cr.mk should combo from a CH cr.hp … which would be a 2 frame link and a nice corner combo … it would be just beautiful … XD

Cheers


#10

Close MK counter hit and still a trade!?

This bug is really annoying … I score lots of CH with close MK and the f… trade don’t let me combo … I really really hope that this will be fixed !!!


#11

I know I repeat myself … but can you guys imagine how wonderful a 8 frame cr.hp would be:

  1. Combos from far HP counterhit
  2. Combos from close.MK/MP counterhit
  3. Easier hit confirm for all nj.HK / IAJK
  4. Better for hit confirming into RFADC lvl 1

What a wonderful world !!!


#12

It will be nice if Capcom extend the hitbox of his close mk , now the link cr lp -> cl mk is a two frames , it’s a pity to cannot use it properly because the close mk became a far mk too much , don’t need to mention the link cr lk -> cl mk doesn’t works against Poison (and Guile too).


#13

That is true, a better proximity for close MK would be fantastic … especially when you do a cross up jump in MK … BUT … it does work against some chars … we should write down a list of characters it does work properly from both sides (jump ins) … because than you can hit confirm j.mk > cr.lp > close MK > HK/MK RJ (and FADC) …

In this MUs this is really a damage boost and it will give you a safe jump … I think it does work on Cody and Chars with similar hitboxes!

I got holiday next week … maybe I will have the time to test stuff like this and make a list.


#14

Very good point … this is more than annoying and reliable close mk combos after all jump ins would be great (also against crouching chars).

Improved hitbox of close MP would also be very very welcome … it is nuts that a medium that is -4 on block does also sometimes whiff against crouching chars and does not hit after a nj.HK … o.O

I would be fine with a better proximity for close MK … !!! This would really be a nice fix/buff.

Wishlist:

  • cr.HP 8 frame start up
  • close HK 6 frame start up
  • better proximity for close MK & MP
  • overhead 19 frame start up
  • fix the counterhit frame data for close MP & MK

Anyone thinks that would be too much ?


#15

Hi guys … so … basically Capcom has confirmed that they will do another balance patch in 2015 and I want to make sure that we seriously put together our feedback.

I do still think that Adon is a solid character but all the talk about Adon and that he is still top 5 is bullshit in my eyes. I don’t even know if he is top 10 anymore. If I look at the latest tournament results and character lists in tournaments I would say that Adon suffers a lot from all the nerfs he got in USF4.

Lets put it together:

  • Less damage for JKs and double nerf with the damage nerf for AA JKs
  • Minus 5 for DP FADC
  • DWU hurting his b. and f.throw set up game
  • IAJK nerf on block and double nerf with chip damage
  • OH nerf
  • Ultra 1 damage nerf

I am more or less fine with this changes (beside the OH nerf) but I do 100% believe that the light RJ juggle and cr.lp +6 are not even enough to compensate the nerfs.

  • RFA combos are not really practical for Adon and the bug with his close medium (only +2 on CH) makes any frame trap into cr.hp impossible.
  • IAJK as his main pressure tool is the hardest special move to input in the whole game and it got double nerfed.
  • Hitbox buff for close HK does not change anything

So what does Adon really need without reverting the USF4 changes and therefore give him back the brainless JK (low risk high reward) game.

With the nerfs to JK and IAJK and DWU hurting his pseudo-vortex safe jump game (after throws) he needs to a bit better in the following:

  • Damage from counterhits (due to DWU you don’t have to respect the tick throw game from Adon compared to AE2012)
  • Better footsie tools and high low mix up in the neutral game
  • Higher reward for IAJKs or less execution level for it
  • More consistency for his BnB combos
  • More reward for close HK resets

After I thought a while about it …. There are some easy ways to do it without making him OP or change his style

The essential change to solve a lot is making cr.hp only 8 frame start up & give him +3 on counterhit for close MK + MP (bug fix)

  • This will enable CH combos into cr.hp with RFA followup
  • Will make the cr.hp link from IAJK easier (RFA followup)
  • Better whiff punish with cr.hp

Next is to reduce the push back from far HP and give it +6 on hit (reduce damage to 110)

  • With close MK on CH being +8 you can combo far HP (close MK forces stand)
  • Now the far HP can combo (2 frame) into cr.mp > light RJ (on more than just 4-5 chars)
  • Will make CH far HP > Far HP or CH Far HP > cr.hp possible

Improve consistency with a better proximity from close MK (trigger distance or make it simple a command normal)

  • This will make jump in combos into cr.lp > close MK possible from front and back (for the whole cast)

Reduce the height restriction from IAJK so that the input is a bit easier (it should still be -2 on block for HK)

  • Biggest problem for reliable Adon play
  • Huge problem for beginners to learn the character

Faster start up (19 frames) for his OH

  • Improvement for his neutral game

Faster start up for close HK (5 frames) & give it 250 stun

  • Will make it better as a close proximity AA
  • Will improve the use of a FADC close HK reset and the use in the corner after a 2nd hit light RJ juggle

Improve hitbox for cr.mk … extended to fit the animation

  • Slight improvement for his footsie game
  • Good alternative compared to cr.mp (is just to superior)
  • Another small buff to his high low mix up

This looks like a lot but nearly all buffs will only give you some better options from a CH or slightly improve your footsie game … AND most of it require tight links / good timing + 3 EX Bar for RFA.

Cheers


#16

A lot of the things you write seem very interesting. Although instead of faster startup on the OH. I would rather have the possibility to combo from it. Since the startup would be the same there is that high risk high reward aspect.

Now with the IAJK. I never understood why this was nerfed.
Reducing the height restriction might be a good idea to compensate for the -2 on block.

Right now I feel that we are lacking tools to fight grapplers. With the buffed green hand / condor spire. Gief is almost impossible to fight against now.

Tbh I just feel that Adon didn’t get that much in return for the huge nerf. Unlike other characters like E.ryu/Yun/Akuma and so on.


#17

That is true … but I would be fine with some hard MU … that is the nature of the game … buffs to far HP and cr.HP would help in the Grappler MU.

Well the problem with a comboable OH is that you are getting crazy high damage if you can combo cr.lk FADC Ultra 2 … which would be crazy !!!

Another way to fix or buff his OH would be to make it faster 19-20 frames make it only one hit and with 3-4 active frames 90 damage and being +2 on hit … so you can combo off from a CH or a meaty set up … similar to Sagats OH. I would take this all day … because I love CH and meaty set ups.


#18

Ofc the grapple MU should be hard. But something just needs to be done to make it a little bit better.

Didn’t think about the possibility to combo into U2 from an OH. But right now the link is extremely hard to hit. So maybe it wouldn’t be to bad. It will still cost 2 meters and with a decent amount of scaling.


#19

To help him against grapplers or characters against who is zoning is not good enought (Bison , Balrog , Chun …) , i have two ideas , improve slightly his walk speed or buff his life , giving him finally 1000 stamina.

I always thought he has below average stamina because his hurtbox is thin but now we have Poison with 1000 stamina and a fu… hurtbox , why Adon should stay with 950 ?

His backward walk speed is only average actually , a little buff would not refuse.

Make his crouch hp one frame faster should be appreciable , this normal is good to wiff punish but is actually already a Sagat killer …

In general , his normals are actually very good , except his crouch mk , i don’t think Capcom should touch it , and it offense game is already very good.

I don’t really see what capcom should change about him , only ex jaguar kick wasn’t nerf in ultra , it’s enought , and his normals doesn’t need a buff same as his offense game, i think in this metagame Adon would always struggle against Grapplers , only his old wake up coul really help him but it will not happen.


#20

TBH what changed in the Adon v Gief MU. Only started in AE a year ago. So what changed to make this one of Adons worst MUs?