AE Update - What would you change (add, remove or simply modifiy) about Balrog in the Update?

balrog

#1

Just interested in what you guys think about what needs to be changed about Boxer?

Personally I doubt it’ll happen but I’d love for the original idea for TAP to come back from SF2. Longer you hold it the more damage it does. That’d be intense.


#2

uh… TAP can do 560dmg if you charge it for 55+ seconds


#3

I would like to see the recovery on his HB be put back to where it was, and last but not least give him a valid Ultra2. Make that bitch 1+0 and change the way people play against Rog. This would give him a valid wake up game and would force people to keep away when he has it loaded. BUT, it would also force people to choose between U1 and U2. More damage or more stun and a valid wake up game. You can combo U1 but not U2, but U2 forces people to respect a characture on wake up, that has no valid Focus attact, no crossup, little to no wakeup options. There is a reason that Rog has only won one tournament, and just think how much things would change if that ultra was 1+0.
God I can only dream, about a characture with 2 ultras to choose from.


#4

I just want far jab back actually


#5

1+0 U2 isn’t going to happen, look @ what that Ultra did for Honda, even with it’s horrible range, hands FADC fwd dash was incredibly scary. The only buff i’d ask for U2 is to give it more frames of knockdown. Balrog gets no opportunity for Oki with that Ultra unlike ALL of his other UKD’s, just enough frames of knockdown somewhere between the time for his dash low or his sweep. But that’s the only change i think he needs.

and headbutt recovery if i want sprinkles on top.


#6

I expect a few nerfs and no buffs for the patch

Or if we’re lucky Capcom will pull a Viper and ignore us completely


#7

Jusr give us super rog back ;___;


#8

I want far jab back,

increase dmg on hb.Also lessen recovery


#9

I like Balrog’s new HB recovery considering its ability to change a match via a “random” HB into Ultra - I’d be fine with the old recovery on a hit HB, though, for better mix-ups.


#10

More priority with standing strong for anti air… Bring back standing jab blocking and Make crouching medium kick +8 on hit to be able to ultra on counter hit off reaction and to combo sweep at anytime to keep that pressure and respect balrogs low game a lot more since the character has no real mix ups.


#11

That’s not even practical on a competitive level.


#12

That wasn’t the point…


#13

I would be down with 120 damage on ex HB and one more frame of advantage on hit for HP dash straight.

oh yeah, and a teenie buff to the range on cr. mk. Like just a few pixels.


#14

Any decent Rog on some level will not have too big a beef with the recovery on headbutt - It trains you to realise that random HB’s or even spur of the moment clutch HB attempts will be punished and thus should only be used situationally or with a definate purpose.

The only thing upsetting me over the Headbutt change is how Headbutt crossovers were a decent mixup - That and it being removed as a viable / consistant fireball avoider but people will tell you he has many other ways to avoid projectiles anyways.

Still, that doesn’t mean I feel it was a GOOD change to begin with - Think it was absolutely pointless to add such ridiculous recovery on whiffed headbutts - Hell he can’t even cancel them and yet someone claiming “HB Ultra is such a game-changer” well thats all well and good until you realise other characters have similar moves that also lead to Ultra but are actually cancellable to really add to the insult, making them safer and probably even more damaging than the pitiful headbutt ultra with it’s reduced damage and disgusting scaling.

It wasn’t even a great AA, only situational at best and most people don’t even end combo’s with it anymore, favouring dash straight, so what, pray tell, is the point of headbutt now other than a situational AA that CAN be used in a scaled off Ultra? Little.

I’d revert it back or even JUST reduce the recovery slightly rather than leave it as it is. I’d also be one of many who’d love FSJab back.

Ultimately I’m not too fussed however and I also predict Rog will get nerfed even more rather than improved - People spent too long crying about Balrog since Vanilla so I feel any request for a positive change will be laughed at as opposed to considered.


#15

cr.mk is +10 on CH.


#16

The overall theme of the changes I want to see is to make Balrog faster and safer with the trade-off being a reduction in the damage of his special moves across the board.Basically, I want to see Balrog FIGHT more like his Super Turbo form. I guess the best example is this video of Daigo -vs- John Choi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbMllTeLTR0 starting at 4:10. The crowd gets so excited at Daigo’s relentless Balrog rushdown. That’s what I want to see for Balrog in the next version of SF4. So here are the changes that I think can make that work in a balanced way. Each change has a buff coupled with an inherent nerf to balance it out:

  1. Make all versions of Dash Straight to be neutral or have frame advantage on hit. Currently, from lowest strength to highest, Dash Straights are -2, -1, and -1, respectively. Basically even if you are succesful in connecting a dash straight on - HIT - the pressure stops, because they can just push a button to push Balrog out. If Balrog, tries to push a button to continue the pressure, he gets counter hitted for his troubles. Just for comparison, Bison’s short scissor kick comes out faster, has comparable range, hits twice so it breaks armor, is neutral on block, and knocks down on hit. It only does 90 damage and is a very good move but it certainly is not overpowered. This change for Balrog would allow him to continue pressure for successfully landing his hits and to balance it out the damage can be lowered from 100 to 90 on the jab version. It can be kept the same as it is now on block.

  2. Make all versions of TAP have the same recovery as level 1 TAP. Currently, Level 1 TAP is +2 on hit, -2 on block and does 130 damage. Level 2 TAP is 150 damage -5 on block and -1 on hit. The trend as the TAP level increases is that is more unsafe but deals more damage. The problem is that in high level play there’s seriously no reason to ever use anything past a Level 1 TAP because it is too risky or not safe even on hit. The solution I feel is to make all versions of TAP have the same recovery as level 1 TAP but start the damage of Level 1 TAP at 110, then the next 3 levels (Level 2 , 3 and 4)increase by only 15 points of damage which would make Level 4 TAP do 155 damage on hit but it would have the same on hit and block. The next 3 levels (5,6,and 7) would increase in increments of 20 making Level 7 TAP do 215(Currently, Level 7 TAP deals 410 damage). The next 3 levels (8, 9 and Final) can increase increments of 65 making Final TAP do 410 damage which is still very good (Currently Final TAP does 560 damage). To put it in perspective, currently Level 4 TAP does 210 damage but it is -8 on hit. Considering the way TAP works, you lose access to either 3 of your kicks or 3 of your punches for the duration of the time you decide to charge it, you also cannot tech throws, and basically lose half of your special moves. Why make so many levels of TAP when the only usable levels are level 1 TAP and … FINAL? I think this change would increase the chance of people actually going for higher levels of the TAP. It would be so exciting to see a Final TAP in a tournament. Right now that will probably never happen.

  3. Make ground straights faster startup and safer on block. Currently even the jab ground straight is VERY slow to startup and is -8 on block. It deals 90 damage and causes untechable knockdown. I think a balanced way to change this move is to make it have faster startup but lower the damage from 90 to 70 on the jab version and make it be -4 on block. The recovery frames can remain the same on whiff but the -4 can come from making the move cause more frames of block stun. The strong and fierce versions, same thing, safer but less damage. This would make Balrog closer to his ST form and people would actually start using that move in SF4.

  4. Change the way dash swing blow works. Make jab version much faster but lower the damage considerably (make from 80 to 50). The purpose of the move should not be for damage, it should be to reliably open up their guard. Balrog is a boxer, he’s supposed to wear you down and break your guard. strong should be slightly faster, lower the damage as well but be safer on block because it is slower, and with the fierce version it can stay the same as it is now.

** the combination of 3 and 4 would create a cool mixup with Balrog once he gets in.**

  1. Decrease recovery of short rush upper so that rog can do the ST trick, vs crouched opponents. make them block a low strong then intentionally whiff short rush upper in order to grab them. They can make it so that rog is -1 on on a blocked cr. strong canceled into short rush upper and +1 on hit from a cr. strong canceled into a WHIFFED short rush upper. improve hitbox of short rush upper as anti air. * lower the damage*

  2. Change the way his Super works. short and jab versions should have LESS range but better startup, strong and forward versions should be exactly as the current super works, fierce and roundhouse should have longer range but SLOWER startup. This would add more variety to his super. Lower damage by 40 points. This would make his super be similar to his ST super that is very fast. Lowering the damage by 40 points would make it balanced because since it is more versatile, it shouldnt deal that much damage.

  3. Adjust Ultra 1’s pushback on hit so that it doesnt uncombo during dash ultra’s thru fireballs. Slight damage nerf

  4. Return headbutts back to the recovery from Super/Vanilla. (damage can be kept at 100) Balrog was always able to whiff headbutts to close the gap on fireballs and escape some situations. I understand that it did a lot of damage but it was already very punishable on whiff block, didnt break armor, and couldnt FADC.

  5. and last but not least!!! Change Ultra 2!!! Currently it does 300 damage and 700 stun only at maximum, has poor range, cannot get any oki after you successfully land it because the opponent gets up at the same time Balrog recovers, is jumpable after the ultra flash, and has the worst recovery of all the command grabs in the game. I think the best way they can make Ultra 2 a useful ultra is to make it have “zero” frame startup so that you can’t jump out of it but lower the stun at MAX to 500 (down from 700) and the damage to 190 at max. That is a big decrease in damage and stun but the ultra would actually become very useful because you have to respect it on balrog’s wakeup and if balrog gets in your face you have to worry about just wanting to block all day. If balrog successfully stuns with it he can get a big combo. Balrog’s strongest combos with full super do at max 500 damage. So with full super and ultra he can probably get around 500 to 600 damage after scaling. The power comes from the THREAT of having u2 if Balrog is in your face and the potential resets he can get if he dizzies you.


#17

Problem I have with that is his lack of mixup.

Given he has no crossup, all ‘rushdown’ is pretty straightforward and with little mixups, having less damage on moves for the sake of recovery/startup is hit and miss considering Balrog still has the same problem of actually getting in to begin with against down-backers. If we’re still going to rely on tick-throws, baits and other common tricks then recovery/startup doesn’t really help as much other than blockstrings and his overhead which, let’s face it, even with better recovery or startup, great players won’t struggle to block it 95% of the time anyway or punish.

This may be biased because I play at a level where good players are rare, thus when you land multiple of that long-ass slow overhead for stupid damage and stun, it’s just lovely… I’d have a different perspective if I was facing top notch players more often as then you’d really see the need for improved recoveries / startup etc

Regarding TAP, I both agree and disagree - I mean, it’s true, why would anyone want to charge beyond level 1 when it becomes so unsafe? It’s mostly used as a troll move - You’ve seen the movies, people like Poongko trolling with level 10 TAP SUPER etc

But at the end of the day, a move that can dish out over 500 Damage in one punch has to have recovery, that would be the logic of Capcom - Hey, this move takes 50% of health off, give it big recovery! Can’t see it happening even if it would be nice - Ultimately the chance of being able to charge up levels of TAP and it recovering the same as Level 1 wouldn’t be too fair. I once had a chap charge a level 7 TAP which I blocked - It still took off the damage equivelant of a full on Vanilla BnB Headbutt Combo - Having stuff like that with less recovery would be pretty sick.

I do agree his DLB could do with a little recovery love but on the same token, DLB (Sweep) has a lot more pushback than straights and uppers which doesn’t exactly make up for it but does help - Example, in the Gief match (at least in terms of Vanilla) if I knew the Gief was competant at punishing blocked/unsafe dashes with SPD’s I’d pepper the odd DLB or Torpedo, knowing that they had higher recovery but pushed him out of range on block for SPD grabs, leaving me with free chip damage and being at a semi-decent spacing range on recovery.

Please don’t reduce his Ultra 1 damage any further - Some of us poor sods aren’t capable of dash-ultras and considering any other form of non-full grounded Ultra is likely to be scaled to oblivion, seeing more damage nerfs would be really really horrible :frowning:

Just my scrubby 2 cents - Nice post though, Jav. I’m sure it’d be appreciated more by the higher skill players than people like me.


#18

Hell, I’d be happy with just one or two of those changes for AE.

But all of them together would only happen in a fantastical world where Capcom buffs characters to create balance instead of nerfing


#19

Personally the only 2 nerfs that bug me are the following.

  1. far st jab doesn’t hit the “big” guys when crouched anymore - give me that back please, totally changes some matchups.
  2. headbutt damage nerf - please give us back the extra damage it did, makes his bnb a lot weaker.

That is really all I care about, and even w/those, I still try to play with Rog to my best and never once even contemplated a character switch. Would also be cool to go back to the old recovery on the torpedo punch, because I forgot about it sometimes and to a poorly spaced one and get punished for it.

Headbutt recovery is pretty moot to me because I never did those headbutt mixups, and it isn’t like it was hard to punish it prior to this nerf.


#20

It would be cool if they lowered the start up on some of his dash punches from some ranges. That way you could combo into the low dash from non-pointblank range and even get out faster overheads. However, i don’t think a change like this should make his dash punches a viable mid range tool. That’s what his normals are for. Just kinda make it easier to combo some of the lesser used dash punches.