AE v.2013 E. Honda requests

e-honda

#1

Hi guys,

As you probablly heard, there are some rummors about another version - nothing concrete, but who knows.
I don’t know if another patch comes, or if Capcom listens to us, but still, I think we should try this - who knows, maybe we get something. At worst, we will have something to talk about.
I will post my ideas, I’m looking for more thoughts, ideas from more experienced honda players.

Ok, first, my idea is to buff everybody bar the top - normally some characters should get some nerfs - Viper, Seth, Akuma, Cammy, Rufus. But I think is better to leave them as they are, but buff everybody else - so keep this in mind.
I want to make Honda stronger and more interesting to play.

So, what do you think ? Would you like these changes ? Preffer others ? Honda would be broken ? Thoughts ? Ideas ? Let’s hear it.
After more people give their thoughts, I will post the changes in AE change request thread (I intend to compile a list for every char :razzy:)

The updated AE v.2013 Change Requests for E. Honda:

  • Ex Hands: +1 hitstun (=+5)

  • far st HP: +20 dmg (100) from the 4th frame

  • Shikofumi: - reduce the start up by 6 frames (24); change cancelable frames to 10-24f

  • Hp. Hands: add +14 dmg (= 119) and +3 blockstun (= +6), and restore chip dmg from 4 per hit to 5 per hit

  • Oichos: - add +10 dmg for normal versions (= 170-180-190) and make all versions not cross up on hit (not switch sides)

  • Ex Oicho: increase the range from 1.52 to 1.70 OR add +5 strike invincible frames and reduce the range to 1.20

  • far st HK: add +3 hitstun (= 0) and +1 blockstun (= -6)

  • Ultra 1: increase the traveling speed after the animation

  • cr HK: reduce the start up by 3 frames (= 11) and increase active frames by 1 (= 3)

  • jump fw MP: increase the hitbox (restore it the way it was in Super)

Detailed Explanations:

[details=Spoiler]
Honda was never broken in Super, so the amount of nerfs he got was uneeded. From Super to AE he lost 205 dmg, and from AE to v.2012 another 30 dmg = 235 dmg loss, same as Yun from AE to v.2012 – except Honda wasn’t anywhere close to AE Yun’s level. He also got other nerfs, Ultra 2 was destroyed, hitbox nerf for jump, blockstun reduction for hands, etc. He also didn’t receive any significant buffs since vanilla. For a character that was never considered broken and never won a major, these nerfs were too much.

I think it would be fair to undo part of the nerfs he received:

  • Far HP: +20 dmg (100) from the 4th frame:

Give back half the dmg for HP: 100 dmg (it was 120 in Super, 140 in vanilla !!). I can understand Capcom not wanting Honda to have a 120 dmg poke, but making it have less dmg than MP is odd, esp. for a poke that has 10 frames start up. (right now MP does 90 dmg, and HP 80 from the 4th frame).

Honda is supposed to have big dmg, that’s his character archetype, it always has been. He has no reliable comeback factor, and a terrible oki game, so landing big dmg is the way he wins.

Some characters like Akuma or Seth that have many tools at their disposal can afford to have some useless ones. But Honda doesn’t have many tools, so he can’t afford to have useless stuff:

  • Shikofumi: reduce the start up by 6 frames (24); reduce the dmg by 20 (110)

Capcom decided to give him a unique attack, but right now this move is useless – 30 frames start up, obvious animation and it requires Honda to give up charge. Considering that Shikofumi is Honda’s only overhead, and that Honda’s mix up game is far from stellar, I think it would be correct to make this move more useful. Even at 24 frames start up, Shikofumi would still be one of the slowest overheads in the game, but at least it would be an option that Honda can use occasionally, spicing up his gameplan and making him more interesting to play. It’s also a cool move, it’s a waste not to be useful.

  • H. Hands: +2 blockstun (+5):

give back a part of the blockstun he had in Super (it was +6). Hands are Honda’s main pressure tool. It needs to be advantaged enough so that holding up, backdashing or mashing a 3-4 frame normal won’t defeat the second hhs. Honda has no true strings, no 3 fr normal, and his cr lk is 5 frames so I don’t think this is a lot to ask. Honda needs this tool in order to maintain the pressure on his opponent, since he can’t rely on kd pressure (few options for kd, Oichos don’t allow for safe jumps).

  • Oicho: - for all versions, in the corner, on hit, throw animation doesn’t end with Honda having crossed over to the other side:

In Super Turbo, Ochio throw would swap positions except in a corner. In SF4, Honda is generally at his strongest when the opponent is cornered and he is crouched just outside. Not only is Honda at his strongest, but Ochio throw specifically is strongest at this point. It would be great if Honda could not corner himself and (more importantly) give his opponent the entirety of the playing field to back away and go back to keeping Honda out with fireballs, or whatever else. Honda doesn’t have a corner carry move, he is a defensive character, a charge character, so it’s not like he can easily put his opponent in the corner. But if he does it, he should be rewarded more. This buff would affect mostly Honda’s bad match ups – the matches where he needs to go on offensive, and less his good ones, where he usually just turtles. It would be a big help in matches like Ryu/Sagat/Guile, when Honda finally corners them, to be able to put more pressure on them. It would also be a nice throwback to ST days.

  • Ex Oicho: increase the range from 1.52 to 1.65

Another useless move. 2 out of 4 ex special moves are useless right now for Honda (ex hands and oicho). While for every other character that has an ex command grab, this move has some special abilities that gives a reason to be used, in Honda’s case, ex Oicho doesn’t have anything – it has only 0.02 more range than L Oicho (completely irrelevant), 10 more dmg than H Oicho (no Honda will ever waste 1 bar for this) and 50 more stun (irrelevant, since Honda doesn’t rely on stunning his opponent)

I think the best solution to make it useful would be to simply increase the range enough so it’s worth spending a bar for. This way Honda would have a valuable tool for opening up opponents. Ex Oicho would still have far less range than Zangief’s light spd (1.75) and Hakan’s Ex Oil rocket (1.79) and costs 1 bar (meter is very important for honda). The move will be used for offensive purposes, so it will mostly affect Honda’s bad matches.

  • far st HK: reduce the recovery by 2 frames so blockstun becomes -5 and hitstun -1

This buff would be of great help in some of Honda’s bad matches, namely Fei long, chun li and ryu. Right now Fei can punish a blocked far hk with ex REkkas, and Ryu and chun can even punish it on hit with Super. I think this is really unfair since Honda is barely able to use his best poke in his bad matches. Reducing the recovery and making blockstun/hitstun -5/-1 would remove this and would help Honda a lot in these matches where he struggles, while mostly leaving the rest of the match ups largely unaffected.

These buffs would make Honda closer to what he is supposed to be: a character with a strong defense, big dmg, and solid pressure once he’s in, while also keeping his traditional weaknesses: a hard time against fireballs, really slow normals (and moves in general) and no easy way to get in (average walk speed, no fast move that puts him in front of the opponent, bad FA and dash). Honda would also be closer to his ST counterpart. With all these buffs, Honda wouldn’t be broken, he wouldn’t even be at Cammy/akuma level, but he would be a strong contender and much more fun to play. [/details]


Upcoming Site Improvements
#2

Ultra 2 changes likes Zangief Ultra 1 (Increase the distances to 1.8 and make it cannot be jumped away like zangief one, otherwise it is useless)
Ex hands can have +1 adv on hit
MP HHS can be used to combo into ultra 1. Add more + frames for extended HHS. Apply to all characters. Weak Headbutt can be combo into ultra 1
Reduce the start up frame of Ultra 1, so that it can pass through Dee Jay and Guile fireball easily.
Ex orchit throw has invincible frames like Abel
Ex headbutt can absorb one hit which can pass throw the fireballs
Increase the hit box for jump mp, croach wp and stand HP.
Increase the damage for HHS to 140, Ex orchit throw to 220, Stand Far HP and HK to 140.

Hope you can gather our ideas and send it to Capcom.


#3

Hahahaha this thread

:rofl:


#4

What ? I want Honda to be better, so ?


#5

When we move the joystick backward after neutral jump HP, Honda can be charged while still in the air.
Honda can do ex headbutt, ultra immediately after landing.

Forward medium punch can be hitted croach characters.

sumo splash changes likes the Boxer Headbutt, so that it can combo into ultra 1

Like Rose, Yun and Yang, Honda can push the fireball away.


#6

I said make Honda better, not broken. What you request is ridicuolus.


#7

Just give him a decent costume


#8

I think that honda would be great again if he was just back to his Super version, meaning, more damage and U2 being a grappler ultra. Or just some damage back instead of all of it.
I know that U2 could be useful in some matchups, but right now it’s ass since anyone can jump out of it.


#9

Agreed.

It would also be cool to have Ultra I be a bit faster, and have EX Oicho, Hands, and Shikofumi be more useful.


#10

Already blew up a thread in the Ken section for this, so i will condense what i said there.

Capcom doesn’t give even half a fuck about this game anymore.
AKA People in hell have a better chance of getting ice water, than Honda has of getting buffed.


#11

Then maybe go back to the Ken section, because you are clearly uninformed. Ono himself said that he would be interested in working for another version. Infiltration also said he would like a new version.

Besides that, is nice having something to talk about.


#12

Yeah, agreed on some kind of buffs on EX grab and U2


#13

I want U2 to go back to it’s super iteration, the blockstun on Hp hands to be +6 like it was in super. st hp back to doing 120 damage always and a buff to hondas medium strength normals.


#14

I agree with U2 - but keep the range and easy input :slight_smile: (only reduce the start up). I don’t think it would be too good.
far HP doing 120 I think it’s a little too much, I would say 100 is decent. I preffer to return some dmg for Oichos, H Hands and Ex Hands.
instead of blockstun, I would rather like +1 hitstun for Ex Hands, in order to make Ex Hands combos more viable, and som tweaks with M Hands hitbox/pushback so we can land U1 combo a little more reliable.
I would also like Shikofumi to be more usefull.

Btw, Stevo, what medium normal would you buff and how ?
And waht do you think about making Ex Hands and U1 combos more viable ? I try to find ways to make them more usefull (a little easier, works on more characters), but I’m not a great Honda player, so I would like to hear some sugestions form someone who is actually good with Honda.


#15

I guess I should make an introduction first as I’m quite sure most of you don’t know me. I’m Arthur, generally TWG Arthur at tournaments, and Seiei Enbu on xbox live. I’ve been playing Honda since Vanilla, I used him as an alt during arcade release and switched to him as my main around November of 2009. During Super I was ranked #1 on XBL and last time I was playing I was also ranked #1 in AE, however I have not logged on in a long time so I would not be surprised if I was beaten by this point. As we all know, Xbox live rankings are irrelevant and only show time expenditure; on the other hand, tournament rankings are an entirely different matter. I live in Texas and frequently place well in tournaments garnering the occasional overall win. I believe the largest tournament I’ve won was in Dallas this spring with 63 entrants if I recall correctly. I’ve taken 9’th at Final Round, 5’th at Texas Showdown, and qualified in evo pools twice. This previous year at Evo I lost at the last round of quarter finals to Combofiend and was sent to losers bracket by Iperu. I believe this puts me in a 16 way tie for 33’rd place.

I’ve thought about this a lot, I concluded that Honda is a solid character and does not need many changes. He is designed to be a wall that is hard to approach. He is not intended to be a vortex character, or specifically a grappler, or a character who’s only goal is a bunch of ways to land the ultra. He is designed to be the best defensive character. With that thought in mind, I’ve come up with a few problems Honda has in SF4AE:2012 that have reasonable solutions that would not break the character:

[LIST=1]
[*]Far fierce should do at least 100 damage for it’s duration.

This is a simple thing, really it’s just something that bothers me. The first two frames of far fierce deal 120 damage while the remainder of the move does 80 damage. Far strong does 90 damage. I can see not wanting Honda to have a 120 damage poke, but I can’t understand why his fierce that’s slow and has such a big animation that it looks painful does less damage than a weaker punch.

[*]Honda should be able to better deal with vortex style situations

Honda’s biggest problem with the way SF4 has progressed is dealing with characters with strong offense that sticks to you. You get knocked down and have to deal with a jump in attack that is not only safe against ex headbutt or any butt drop, but will also get you hit with an option selected invincible attack if you Do try to use a wakeup. In this type of case, Honda generally has only the options of U2 or block. In a slightly worse case of a safejump that’s not air-tight Honda’s slow reversals will continue to allow him to be option selected but it takes away the utility of Ultra 2 due to its short duration.

Ultra 2 right now has 3 uses: beating incredibly tight safe jumps such as Ryu’s off of sweep, punishing things that are -1 such as things like Shoryuken FADC, or if you’re trying to be offensive with it and using it as an all or nothing frame trap “I think you hit a button.” The safe jump option selection punish is interesting but not strong enough. If you look at other safe jumps such as Cody’s off of backthrow, U2 is 1 frame too slow to punish this offense, so again, Honda receives a safe jumpin option select that he has to block the initial hit of for fear of just getting stuffed. If Ultra 2 had 5 active frames it would not be any more dangerous as an offensive tool because it could still be jumped out of. However, it would stop all safe jump option selects and make opponents think before mindlessly going on the offensive against Honda.

Another solution to this problem If Ex Ochio had 5 frames of invincibility. Ex Ochio is active on frames 5 and 6, for a jumpin to be safe against Honda’s 8f ex headbutt his opponent has to land by frame 6, thus beating the safejumpin. However, just giving invincibility to the Ex Ochio we have now is now would be entirely too strong. Nobody wants a Honda that can just mash shit out and be totally fine if it comes out or otherwise where you are on the ground, the range would need to be drastically decreased. If you look at the range on Honda’s U2 from Super, Honda could tick into 720 off of 1 low short, but off of 2 low shorts he’d have to buffer the 720 and walk up a few pixels. Super SF4’s U2 had a range of 54 less pixels than Ex Ochio, I feel that’d be a good starting point. It allows Honda to to invincibly grab at point blank but does not allow for him to mash it out in every string anyone uses on him. Perhaps it would still be too large range, the idea here is simply to allow Honda to beat safe jumps, not have an all purpose invincible move.

The Ex Ochio idea is perhaps still too strong though. It would allow every safe jump to be beaten if Honda has the meter. It would also likely have other ramifications on the ground particularly against frame trap type characters whom generally already have a bad matchup against Honda. Honda’s good matches shouldn’t be made better, only his bad matchups should be altered ideally.

[*]Ultra 2 is too hard to do

Just about every other special has a whole bunch of different short cuts/etc that will allow for ease of use. When I want to use U2, I generally am punishing an uppercut FADC at which point I need to go from down back to forward and do the double half circle back. Yeah, the way I used to do 720 was actually a Lot easier. All 720 motions should be acceptable as U2 inputs. Also double half circle forward? Allow for the first back to be skipped same as the first forward is during the double quarter circle forward motions.

I daresay the same should go for Guy, Ibuki, and 'rog, but I’m sure players using those characters will make the same complaints, because double half circle backward is too hard, especially from blocking.

[*]If Ex Ochio isn’t given any invincibility, it needs to serve an actual purpose.

Right now Ex Ochio trades 250 points of super meter for an extra 30 damage on jab Ochio with 2 extra pixel range. I would never give up an Ex headbutt for 30 extra damage. Some examples buffs (Perhaps even combining a couple of these would work…)

[LIST]
[*]Invincible startup plus reduced range
I feel this has been sufficiently explored above.

[*]Much greater range
Right now it has 2 pixels more range than jab ochio according to the mook. Ochio throw’s most notable trait is the long range that it has. Why not make the expense of meter amplify this trait?

[*]More damage
The lazy way to make the move better. I think in the neighborhood of 250 damage would make me consider actually using the move. 250 damage would put Ochio on par with Zangief’s fierce spinning pile driver. It would also be trading one bar for 70 to 90 additional damage to Ochio throw. As Ochio is always a guess on Honda’s part, I honestly don’t feel that it is too unreasonable to compare losing the utility of an Ex headbutt with 70 extra damage on your guess of the other guy continuing to block.

[*]On hit, throw animation doesn’t end with Honda having crossed over to the far side
In ST, Ochio throw would swap positions except in a corner. In SF4, Honda is generally at his strongest when the opponent is cornered and he is crouched just outside. Not only is Honda at his strongest, but Ochio throw specifically is strongest at this point. It would be nice if Honda could spend an ex meter stock to get a command grab with good range and yet not corner himself and (more importantly) give his opponent the entirety of the playing field to back away and go back to keeping Honda out with fireballs/whatever. I feel this is likely the best option.

[*]Longer knockdown time
One of the big problems with Ochio is how, unlike most other command grabs, Honda does not get an offensive setup off of it. Honda cannot safely jump afterward, any character in the game can anti air him or whatever. Crossup jumps also do not alleviate this problem. With additional knockdown time, Honda could preform a safe jump allowing him to get his own offense started. However, as Honda is not by design an offensive vortex style character, I feel this is likely the worst option.

[*]Removal
I honestly feel this is a serious option. I don’t recall ever seeing a Honda player intentionally ex Ochio for the sweet 30 damage extra that you get. If that 30 damage wasn’t specifically what was necessary to kill, if I had seen someone use it for said 30 damage I’d call them wasteful. I get Ex Ochio on occasion when I mess up using an ex headbutt to beat an opponent who is doing a crossup jump attack. Yeah, I shouldn’t mess up my own attacks or whatever, that’s fine. However, it compounds the problem when I waste an ex stock as well as receiving the jump in combo. If Ex Ochio was removed and I still messed up my auto-correct Ex headbutt I’d still eat the combo but at least this time it wouldn’t cost me super meter.
[/LIST]
[/LIST]
Well, that fixes Honda’s problems as I see it. That’s not many changes though. I daresay everyone wants a new toy to play with so why not make a fun change that isn’t likely to affect much but leads to interesting new gameplay?

[LIST]
[*]Give Honda a 1 time use buff
Have Honda receive a move that works like Sagat’s Angry Scar. Possibly have it make your next far Roundhouse knockdown, next ochio give you a good setup, next ex hands +6 on hit, next butt drop armor breaking, or possibly next headbutt fireball invincible. Perhaps different

[*]Make Honda’s overhead into a low crush.
Currently overhead pulls you backward. I thought of this while playing against a Bison who would do kneepress, low short xx kneepress midscreen. I used overhead to move myself backward then kara cancelled into ochio throw to grab him on recovery. Sadly, I whiffed but I like the idea overall. If the overhead didn’t pull Honda backward yet had a hitbox that would dodge a low short it would be a fun tool to use to avoid some types of pressure.
[/LIST]
There are likely any number of things that would lead to Honda being an interesting character that stays true to what makes Honda the tank that he is. Honda is strong and difficult to approach. Honda does Not have superior offensive capabilities, a vortex, or easy to do 500 damage combos that only cost 1 bar. He is like this by design. I say keep him that way, just make him a little bit better at what he does against the characters who beat him up close.


#16

For the life of me I can’t get my formatting correct. I give up.


#17

The reason you cant make ex hands any more than +4 on hit is that atm Honda can do 490 damage off a cr mk for an overall meter cost of 1 bar. The only thing that makes that balanced is that is hard to do.

In super the only way for characters to escape hands to hands on block was to guess an invinceable reversal, backdashing or holding up just resulted in ch hands which if you had super meant GG, this was a very powerful tool which allowed honda to lock characters down.


#18

In super hands was +7 on block. You could do hands, jab, hands, super as a guaranteed block string doing 155 damage. It also built like a third of a bar, helping you get that super.


#19

I really like the idea of Ex Oicho not switching sides in a corner. If the opponent has a life lead and you have him cornered, oicho is kinda stupid just to open your opponent up and end up in the corner yourself.


#20

490 dmg with 1 bar ? what combo are you talking about ? I don’t think you can deal that much damage even with a jump in.
With 1 meter I know you can deal max. 385 dmg from a cr MK - which is quite ok - I mean , Honda is supposed to hit hard, he doesn’t have combos into ultra, nor a great oki game. So, I wouldn’t see a problem here.
Plus, as far as I know, Ex hands combos are useless in tournament settings - I never seen a Honda player using them in a tournament. Cuongster himself told me that “execution mistake is too high in these combos”.
But since both you and Arthur are here, I’m curious, how do you guys feel of these combos - do you think they are doable in a tournament setting ?

Because from my point of view, giving Ex Hands +1 hitstun would make these combos from useless in tourney to hard to do but more usefull. They would still be pretty hard to pull off, plus, wasting a bar for Honda is pretty big deal.

Also, Stevo, what do you think if Honda would get +1 block stun for H Hands ? (making it +4 on block) - would it be enough ? or maybe +2 (so it would be +5) ? I think returning to +6 it would be a little too much.

Interesting thoughts, Arthur :). I know who you are, I’ve seen you in tourneys.
I will try to incorporate your and Stevo’s ideas and make a nice buff list for Honda. I’m also curious what do you think of Honda’s ex Hands combos - do you think they are doable in tournaments right now ? or giving +1 hitstun to Ex hands would be too much ?
I would really like Honda to have some fancy combos :razzy: (but I’m not that good, so I would like to hear some oppions form better players).
I will check your thoughts in more detail later and ask you some more stuff.