As you probablly heard, there are some rummors about another version - nothing concrete, but who knows.
I don’t know if another patch comes, or if Capcom listens to us, but still, I think we should try this - who knows, maybe we get something. At worst, we will have something to talk about.
I will post my ideas, I’m looking for more thoughts, ideas from more experienced honda players.
Ok, first, my idea is to buff everybody bar the top - normally some characters should get some nerfs - Viper, Seth, Akuma, Cammy, Rufus. But I think is better to leave them as they are, but buff everybody else - so keep this in mind.
I want to make Honda stronger and more interesting to play.
So, what do you think ? Would you like these changes ? Preffer others ? Honda would be broken ? Thoughts ? Ideas ? Let’s hear it.
After more people give their thoughts, I will post the changes in AE change request thread (I intend to compile a list for every char :razzy:)
The updated AE v.2013 Change Requests for E. Honda:
Ex Hands: +1 hitstun (=+5)
far st HP: +20 dmg (100) from the 4th frame
Shikofumi: - reduce the start up by 6 frames (24); change cancelable frames to 10-24f
Hp. Hands: add +14 dmg (= 119) and +3 blockstun (= +6), and restore chip dmg from 4 per hit to 5 per hit
Oichos: - add +10 dmg for normal versions (= 170-180-190) and make all versions not cross up on hit (not switch sides)
Ex Oicho: increase the range from 1.52 to 1.70 OR add +5 strike invincible frames and reduce the range to 1.20
far st HK: add +3 hitstun (= 0) and +1 blockstun (= -6)
Ultra 1: increase the traveling speed after the animation
cr HK: reduce the start up by 3 frames (= 11) and increase active frames by 1 (= 3)
jump fw MP: increase the hitbox (restore it the way it was in Super)
Honda was never broken in Super, so the amount of nerfs he got was uneeded. From Super to AE he lost 205 dmg, and from AE to v.2012 another 30 dmg = 235 dmg loss, same as Yun from AE to v.2012 – except Honda wasn’t anywhere close to AE Yun’s level. He also got other nerfs, Ultra 2 was destroyed, hitbox nerf for jump, blockstun reduction for hands, etc. He also didn’t receive any significant buffs since vanilla. For a character that was never considered broken and never won a major, these nerfs were too much.
I think it would be fair to undo part of the nerfs he received:
- Far HP: +20 dmg (100) from the 4th frame:
Give back half the dmg for HP: 100 dmg (it was 120 in Super, 140 in vanilla !!). I can understand Capcom not wanting Honda to have a 120 dmg poke, but making it have less dmg than MP is odd, esp. for a poke that has 10 frames start up. (right now MP does 90 dmg, and HP 80 from the 4th frame).
Honda is supposed to have big dmg, that’s his character archetype, it always has been. He has no reliable comeback factor, and a terrible oki game, so landing big dmg is the way he wins.
Some characters like Akuma or Seth that have many tools at their disposal can afford to have some useless ones. But Honda doesn’t have many tools, so he can’t afford to have useless stuff:
- Shikofumi: reduce the start up by 6 frames (24); reduce the dmg by 20 (110)
Capcom decided to give him a unique attack, but right now this move is useless – 30 frames start up, obvious animation and it requires Honda to give up charge. Considering that Shikofumi is Honda’s only overhead, and that Honda’s mix up game is far from stellar, I think it would be correct to make this move more useful. Even at 24 frames start up, Shikofumi would still be one of the slowest overheads in the game, but at least it would be an option that Honda can use occasionally, spicing up his gameplan and making him more interesting to play. It’s also a cool move, it’s a waste not to be useful.
- H. Hands: +2 blockstun (+5):
give back a part of the blockstun he had in Super (it was +6). Hands are Honda’s main pressure tool. It needs to be advantaged enough so that holding up, backdashing or mashing a 3-4 frame normal won’t defeat the second hhs. Honda has no true strings, no 3 fr normal, and his cr lk is 5 frames so I don’t think this is a lot to ask. Honda needs this tool in order to maintain the pressure on his opponent, since he can’t rely on kd pressure (few options for kd, Oichos don’t allow for safe jumps).
- Oicho: - for all versions, in the corner, on hit, throw animation doesn’t end with Honda having crossed over to the other side:
In Super Turbo, Ochio throw would swap positions except in a corner. In SF4, Honda is generally at his strongest when the opponent is cornered and he is crouched just outside. Not only is Honda at his strongest, but Ochio throw specifically is strongest at this point. It would be great if Honda could not corner himself and (more importantly) give his opponent the entirety of the playing field to back away and go back to keeping Honda out with fireballs, or whatever else. Honda doesn’t have a corner carry move, he is a defensive character, a charge character, so it’s not like he can easily put his opponent in the corner. But if he does it, he should be rewarded more. This buff would affect mostly Honda’s bad match ups – the matches where he needs to go on offensive, and less his good ones, where he usually just turtles. It would be a big help in matches like Ryu/Sagat/Guile, when Honda finally corners them, to be able to put more pressure on them. It would also be a nice throwback to ST days.
- Ex Oicho: increase the range from 1.52 to 1.65
Another useless move. 2 out of 4 ex special moves are useless right now for Honda (ex hands and oicho). While for every other character that has an ex command grab, this move has some special abilities that gives a reason to be used, in Honda’s case, ex Oicho doesn’t have anything – it has only 0.02 more range than L Oicho (completely irrelevant), 10 more dmg than H Oicho (no Honda will ever waste 1 bar for this) and 50 more stun (irrelevant, since Honda doesn’t rely on stunning his opponent)
I think the best solution to make it useful would be to simply increase the range enough so it’s worth spending a bar for. This way Honda would have a valuable tool for opening up opponents. Ex Oicho would still have far less range than Zangief’s light spd (1.75) and Hakan’s Ex Oil rocket (1.79) and costs 1 bar (meter is very important for honda). The move will be used for offensive purposes, so it will mostly affect Honda’s bad matches.
- far st HK: reduce the recovery by 2 frames so blockstun becomes -5 and hitstun -1
This buff would be of great help in some of Honda’s bad matches, namely Fei long, chun li and ryu. Right now Fei can punish a blocked far hk with ex REkkas, and Ryu and chun can even punish it on hit with Super. I think this is really unfair since Honda is barely able to use his best poke in his bad matches. Reducing the recovery and making blockstun/hitstun -5/-1 would remove this and would help Honda a lot in these matches where he struggles, while mostly leaving the rest of the match ups largely unaffected.
These buffs would make Honda closer to what he is supposed to be: a character with a strong defense, big dmg, and solid pressure once he’s in, while also keeping his traditional weaknesses: a hard time against fireballs, really slow normals (and moves in general) and no easy way to get in (average walk speed, no fast move that puts him in front of the opponent, bad FA and dash). Honda would also be closer to his ST counterpart. With all these buffs, Honda wouldn’t be broken, he wouldn’t even be at Cammy/akuma level, but he would be a strong contender and much more fun to play. [/details]