AE2012 Matchup Series #2: DeeJay, Dhalsim, Dudley, Honda, Fuerte, E. Ryu, Fei, Gen, Gouken, Guile

m-bison

#1

Dee Jay

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Dhalsim

[details=Spoiler][/details]

Dudley

[details=Spoiler][/details]


#2

E. Honda

Spoiler

This match is still a turtle fest, basically whoever gets hits first loses, similar to turtle Blanka and Balrog match ups.

Headbutt Shenanigans
[LIST]
[]LP headbutt and EX headbutt cannot be punished on block.
[
]MP headbutt is punishable by LK Knee Press (reversal) and MK Knee Press Nightmare (reversal). LK Knee Press Nightmare works too but only hits three times for less damage than the MK Knee Press Nightmare.
[]HP headbutt is punishable by LK Knee Press (1 hit), MK Knee Press (2 hits) HK scissors (2 hits, reversal) and MK/HK super. The HK scissors does more damage but it must be a reversal so if mistimed, or you will get punished
[
]Honda super is punishable by c.MK xx Special
[*]Honda Ultra is punishable by Ultra I and Ultra II and crouch MK into combo
[/LIST]

If the Honda you’re facing likes to turtle out a bit more he won’t throw out too many headbutts. This will allow you to sit on a life lead or start offense easier because they’re fishing for retaliation opportunities. You can focus his Buttslams and dash off to punish if you can see them coming. Just because Honda doesn’t have great anti-air without meter doesn’t exactly mean you can jump in for free. Jumping in blindly can get countered with his up+HP attack and it counter hits for a good amount. You can safely cross him up with j.MK and bait out some EX-Headbutts and burn his meter. EX meter is a little hard to come by for Honda in this match up unless they do like to go aggressive against Bison. He’s kind of left with whiffing Ochios across the screen to build up meter.

Honda has some good mixup off his blocked jumpins between LP HHS and Ochio. Be aware of his tick Ochio setups.

After a throw or in any “safe” crossup situation you can OS your crossup with sweep and beat LP Headbutt, go under Buttslam, and chase EX Headbutt. After chasing the EX Headbutt you can c.LK, if Honda pushes a button he’ll get hit.

Watch out for HHS links, Honda can go c.LP xx HHS and link into another set of c.LP xx HHS. The spacing after one set of c.LP xx HHS allows for another. So after the second one, back out a little and you should be safe.

When you’re playing the chip damage tug of war with Honda, beware if you misspace and missuse your Knee Presses, you can easily eat a c.LP xx HHS. If you block, make sure they’re safe (LK Knee Press 2 hits on block, MK/HK Knee Press, 1 hit on block).

Crossing Honda up when he has a charge is a big risk, you can mess his charge up with a blocked Head Press and wiggle a bit over head, crossing him up quickly and back, and then Skulldiverfor some chip damage and frame advantage.
Buttslam
Only his HK Buttslam is unsafe unblock and at that its only -3. You can punish with C.LK xx SK but its a 1 frame link.
Cross up Buttslam on your wake up can stuff EX.Pyscho Crusher. Use EX.SK to get out instead. This also applies to Honda’s cross up J.MK.

Headbutt
Headbutt stuffs EX.Pyscho Crusher clean due to a projectile invincible hurtbox.
His MK and HK Headbutts are unsafe on block.
You can punish his MK Headbutt with LK SK (which does less damage than the chip damage his headbutt does lol) A better punish is reversal MK SK but you need to block it standing, a reversal MK SK from a crouching position can be blocked and punished by Honda, EX SK will hit from crouched and standing though.
HK Headbutt can be punished by HK SK as well as the other SK.
You can actually punish LK Headbutt and EX Headbutt with LK Super if they perform them as a wake up reversal and your right on top of them when they do it. However it whiffs 2 of its 5 hits and only does 220 damage.

If you can get Honda into the corner and your on top of him as he does wake up EX.Headbutt, he doesn’t get to push you back far enough to be safe so you can punish with full C.MP xx PC/SK (xx Super if you like). This also applys to LP.Headbutt.

The other option to deal with Ex.Headbutt is jump back baiting. If you suspect your opponent is going to do it as a wake up reversal or use it to get out of block string pressure, jump back leaves you into a position to punish it on whiff. However you don’t want to be point blank on Honda if you do this as it will limit your punishment options to C.MP, S.MK/HK. If you do it from a little further back you can throw him out of his recovery for some safe jump set ups or do a combo on him during his recover. Don’t do an instant S.HK when you land from the jump back as that tends to whiff.

The down side to this of course if he doesn’t do Ex.Headbutt, you will have just zoned yourself out. EX.Buttslam will also beat your jump back.

If Honda does EX.Headbutt from full screen away you can stuff it clean with EX.Pyscho Crusher on reaction. By the time the invincible frames are gone on EX.Pyscho Crusher the active frames on the Headbutt will be over, allowing you to win clean. Perform the EX.PC just before the Headbutt reaches you.

Super
You can punish his Super on block with C.MK xx PC/SK. You cannot raw LK.Super him.

Tidbits
Honda’s command throws are unique in regards they all lack throw or hit invincibility.
Counter hit combo S.HK to S.HK does not work on Honda. Use S.MK instead.
If you land a J.MPx2 (Hell Attack) you can connect with both hits of EX.SK if you time the EX. SK to connect just before Honda reaches the ground.
Cross up Psycho Crushers will stuff auto correct EX.Headbutt.
3x S.LK , S.HK does not work on Honda. Like CH S.HK , S.HK Honda’s hitbox is too low for the S.HK to combo after the last link. It does work if he’s crouching however because of reduced pushback.

El Fuerte

[details=Spoiler][/details]

Evil Ryu

[details=Spoiler][/details]


#3

Feilong

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Gen

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Gouken

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Guile

Spoiler

"I think ultimately beating guile requires atleast one round being won by timeout.
Guile still can’t make comebacks, even though his defense is really good, that will always be his weakness and you gotta keep in mind that.

In the beginning I imagine I’m basically losing by 30%, that 30% represents how much life you will probably lose due to chip damage alone. That being said, you must wait and feel for the right moment to jump. You wait to land a jumpin and guile will be in trouble. You rush in doing stupid desperate focus dash forwards ? You’ll lose. You can do those when you’re actually in a desperate situation.

I think ultra 1 is better in this case, ultra 2 is not realistic enough to land. Guile has to give it to you in order for you to land it. But vs average guiles U2 is better.

The more time you spend on the ground, the more you’ll understand how to pressure guile. Walk up block, walk up attack, move in and out if his roundhouse or backfist, etc. Once you get a hunch that “oh this is a good time to jump”, do it.

One jump forward every 35 seconds, try that out. (you can still jump straight up or back from far away though)" ~Kim1234


#4

asdfasdf


#5

Anybody else having somewhat of a rough time being rushed down by Evil Ryu? Wow.


#6

He still has no health and he doesn’t have a crazy mixup game like Seth so just block all day


#7

Yeah I suppose I just have to get used to fighting them more with the crossup shenanigans. Tatsu crossups and whatnot. He’s got 900 health now, so it’s not really as low as before. He’s blocking more knee presses and pretty much can punish for a high amount if you let him. Which is what I was just not getting used to.


#8

Some more Honda info.

Buttslam
Only his HK Buttslam is unsafe unblock and at that its only -3. You can punish with C.LK xx SK but its a 1 frame link.
Cross up Buttslam on your wake up can stuff EX.Pyscho Crusher.

Headbutt
Headbutt stuffs EX.Pyscho Crusher clean due to a projectile invincible hurtbox.
His MK and HK Headbutts are unsafe on block.
You can punish his MK Headbutt with LK SK (which does less damage than the chip damage his headbutt does lol) A better punish is reversal MK SK but you need to block it standing, a reversal MK SK from a crouching position can be blocked and punished by Honda, EX SK will hit from crouched and standing though.
HK Headbutt can be punished by HK SK as well as the other SK.
You can actually punish LK Headbutt and EX Headbutt with LK Super if they perform them as a wake up reversal and your right on top of them when they do it. However it whiffs 2 of its 5 hits and only does 220 damage.

Tidbits
Honda’s command throws are unique in regards they all lack throw or hit invincibility.
Counter hit combo S.HK to S.HK does not work on Honda. Use S.MK instead.
If you land a J.MPx2 (Hell Attack) you can connect with both hits of EX.SK if you time the EX. SK to connect just before Honda reaches the ground.
Cross up Psycho Crushers will stuff auto correct EX.Headbutt.


#9

You have to block the headbutts standing up in order to punish with lk super. If you crouch block, you only get partial damage. Not that this situation really ever comes up.


#10

Checked it out. Had no luck with reversal LK Super from a standing position. Outcome was the same, 2 of the hits whiff unless he is in the corner in which case you get full damage.

A little more infro after testing.

Buttslam
Cross up buttslams on you wake up can stuff reversal EX.Psycho Crushers. Use EX.SK to get out instead. This also applies to Honda’s cross up J.MK.

Headbutt
If you can get Honda into the corner and your on top of him as he does wake up EX.Headbutt, he doesn’t get to push you back far enough to be safe so you can punish with full C.MP xx PC/SK (xx Super if you like). This also applys to LP.Headbutt.

The other option to deal with Ex.Headbutt is jump back baiting. If you suspect your opponent is going to do it as a wake up reversal or use it to get out of block string pressure, jump back leaves you into a position to punish it on whiff. However you don’t want to be point blank on Honda if you do this as it will limit your punishment options to C.MP, S.MK/HK. If you do it from a little further back you can throw him out of his recovery for some safe jump set ups or do a combo on him during his recover. Don’t do an instant S.HK when you land from the jump back as that tends to whiff.

The down side to this of course if he doesn’t do Ex.Headbutt, you will have just zoned yourself out. EX.Buttslam will also beat your jump back.

If Honda does EX.Headbutt from full screen away you can stuff it clean with EX.Pyscho Crusher on reaction. By the time the invincible frames are gone on EX.Pyscho Crusher the active frames on the Headbutt will be over, allowing you to win clean. Perform the EX.PC just before the Headbutt reaches you.

Super
You can punish his Super on block with C.MK xx PC/SK. You cannot raw LK.Super him.

Tidbits
3x S.LK , S.HK does not work on Honda. Like CH S.HK , S.HK Honda’s hitbox is too low for the S.HK to combo after the last link. It does work if he’s crouching however because of reduced pushback.


#11

Interesting, I tested it and got basically the same result, outside of an occasional 4-hit punish. I probably just remembered it wrong.


#12

Suparnovax. Your info in the Honda section is gone. Can you add it back in.


#13

Convinced Bison can’t win against a competent Gen. You can’t AA him and his pokes are almost all better.

As for Deejay, the matchup is pretty much Guile but much worse due to Knee Shot having such an insanely good hitbox and the fact his AA is actually better than Guile’s is.


#14

Jakob beat Xian, who is probably one of, if not the, best Gen’s in the world. And Xian beat Kim, too, so it’s not like Xian doesn’t know the matchup.

Dude, why are your matchup posts always so depressing to read


#15

Salt probably, that and honestly puzzled at some matchups, in others just honest observations. The Gen stuff could just be the fact that finding a Gen that knows what they are doing is rare.

The Deejay stuff well, its true as far as I have experienced. Air Slasher might not technically be as good as Sonic Boom but as far as Bison is concerned its close enough. As far as Deejay having better AA, that is true as well and its not just upkicks he has normals that work just as well. Knee Shot done as low to the ground as possible is damn hard to near impossible to AA. Some of the most annoying fights I have had against that character is the ones who realize that doing a simple ground string then low as possible knee shot then rinse and repeat will eventually push Bison to the corner. I have found the move stuffs both st.hk and cr.hp pretty easily and it stuffs ex pc as well. Bison can win the fight but like Guile it requires one of two things and often both: 1. Push him to the corner and keep him there and 2. Get the life lead and try and time him out.


#16

Gen

Cr.HP works, so does air to air j.mp to U1, jump back fierce or jump back roundhouse and EX PC AA if you have meter to burn (Although I’ve been bizarrely knocked out of that by Gens j.hp sometimes).

Bison wins this fight on the ground. St.mk all day baby, Gen can’t do much if your spacing is sick.

It’s all about playing super tight once he has super and taking the fact he has super to your advantage (like not wanting to waste ex meter when he has four full stocks so being able to pressure him more), that depends on the player though.


#17

Dhalsim seems pretty even 5-5, but you’re not getting in without meter, and he has to make a mistake in order to do that. That being said it is really hard to build meter against Dhalsim since he can full screen punish DR. The beginning is the hardest part in this fight imo, his teleport stuff does not work well against Bison because of our good normals, s.RH and s.Fierce usually beat all teleports that are done offensively.

Something worth mentioning I think is that Dhalsim super is a pretty good reversal, it trades a lot but it deals full dmg nonetheless, and it can punish almost everything up close.

Ultra II has uses here since his Yoga blast? ( his aduken ) has really bad recovery, keep your down charge on, normal headstomp is also able to punish these really well.

Sometimes Dhalsim players like to bait your knee press with a Yoga tower, but that’s just a gimmick, easy to adjust and punish that.


#18

He’s always like that. But it is needed for a different side of perspective on things depending on if it’s just flat out wrong or not.


#19

Dudley matchup makes no sense to me. What in the world do you do in this one? I came damn near close to perfecting this Dudley twice but he lands one punch and its over. If you end up blocking the punch your stuck blocking for days. While this wouldn’t be a problem normally he is one of the few blessed with a comboable overhead and decent tick throw game.

I guess it just frustrates me that I was clearly outplaying the guy but because of the fact that Bison does little damage I couldn’t seal the win.


#20

How many match ups do you feel that way about?