Another Patch? Where's my mask?! El Fuerte Changes suggestion discussion

el-fuerte

#1

So guys. I plan on making a video if I don’t end up screwing it up. We have about a month so let’s get to it.

I request only sensible things…

the suggestions come out today.

here’s what I got:

http://www.capcom-unity.com/densuo/blog/2013/04/12/my-thoughts-on-what-fuerte-should-get


#2

QCB + K for Q-Bomb would be nice.


#3

Moves

-Ex Quesadilla always wall bouncing and recovering faster so it can allow more follow-ups
-Make the dropkick a special move Back+HK and not range dependant but make it somehow unsafe is done really close
-Give gordilla more +frames on hit or block or make it armor breaking
-Shower kick throw invincible? (after all he’s in the air)

Bugs

-Guacamole leg throw still trades
-Do something for the dead zone in the corner (like, decide is he his facing right or left but not in a no-inputs void)
-His slide still makes him teleport against certain characters’s wake up animation.
-Fix weird rollback animation on certain characters while he RSF


#4

I am starting to think that it is impossible to fix the Back Run deadzone. I feel the only way to correct it would be to remove El Fuerte’s Habanero Back Dash’s ability to transition into Habanero Dash.

As far as the Guacamole Leg Throw. I will go with what was listed previously in the last Updates thread: Make the damage be split into two, the First hit, when he captures the opponent in the air will deal half of the damage of the move. The Second hit of course getting the last half of the damage. this will at least alleviate the stupid Guac trade glitch.


#5

While the deadzone itself cannot be fixed, I thing making the side switch instant, or making fuerte be considered facing front or back during the animation could be a solution. There might be technical limitations I’m not aware of though.

Also, this:


#6

The problem with Picadillo that makes me think Capcom ran out of ideas with Fuerte is with all three kicks doing the same exact thing. There’s really no point to Picadillo. It has no invincibility, he can not do anything after it except jump off the wall (which then allows him to do something), and it is the same speed and angle as simply stopping your run and jumping.

There’s no point to changing the trajectory of Picadillo jump dependent on button press unless there is some sort of property added to the move. A better thing here is to simply manually stop your jump and jump forward (a fake tortilla basically). What we could use on Picadillo is differentiating the trajectory and speed of the jump to make it more then just “I’m jumping backwards just like a normal jump except I can’t do anything but jump off the wall”

Close HP to 175 stun would be good I think.

I’m amazed that they haven’t made crHP Special Cancelable. It would be a mixup opportunity or at least better positioning off of an anti air.

Health I am iffy on. If they fix his tools it would justify his low health.

I hate seeing Splash touch an opponent and nothing happens.

Q-Bomb as a Command Input would be godlike. But I would prefer a hitbox/lower body invincibility buff instead. Or even make it safe since Fuerte has next to nothing safe.

I think cr Short as a 3 framer was what they wanted to sorta kinda but not really give when they made it chainable from a cr Light.

I would agree on meter gain for Picadillo or SOMETHING from it. There’s no point to this move right now, and we have it on three buttons.

I am a bit miffed about Fajita. While I agree on Fajita being given something else (Like more damage) I’d much rather see it Grab crouchers too.


#7

This will b my 1st fuerte srk post but:

I think fuerte is an ok character but has some flaws that can b fixed to make his gameplay more solid, I don’t want him to be op so but here are my ideas for how they should improve him with balance in mind:

  1. fr.hk- should become an input (back hk). this would an effective tool up close.

  2. overhead- should be throw invc, i don’t see why he can be throw if the animation has him airborne

  3. cr.lk- +1 extra frame of hitstun (+7). its has 5 frame start-up give it something!

  4. cl.lk- 3 frame start-up, ok this one might be a stretch but he could use a 3 frame normal, and it still wouldn’t be a low.

  5. QBomb- “there can b sooo many useful changes to this move” 1. command input, this is a must QCB+k(k). 2. EX QBomb can absorb 1 hit (non a.b.) plus keep counter hit wall bounce “OR” always wall bounce. If it got both of these things it would be one of the best EX moves in the game, so i’ll only ask for one.

  6. Guacamole- stop trading!!

  7. Splash- Slightly better hitbox, sometimes this misses when it shouldn’t

  8. Fajita- Slightly more projective invc when airborne, i hate being hit with a fireball on the tall end the upward part of this move.

  9. Picadillo Jump- meter build

  10. New Super Jump- Just hear me out 1st! One of El Fuerte’s main tools is him mobility, it only makes sense that he has a SJ. It could also open up new combo potential (cr.hp, SJ, EX QBomb) or something like that. it would also allow him to punish more stuff. His SJ would move faster than his normal jump and make the sound from picadillo jump. Moves that would be SJ cancelable: fr.lk, cr.lk, cr.mk, cr.hp


#8
  1. fr.hk- should become an input (back hk). this would an effective tool up close.

  2. overhead- should be throw invc, i don’t see why he can be throw if the animation has him airborne

  3. cr.lk- +1 extra frame of hitstun (+7). its has 5 frame start-up give it something!

  4. cl.lk- 3 frame start-up, ok this one might be a stretch but he could use a 3 frame normal, and it still wouldn’t be a low.

  5. QBomb- “there can b sooo many useful changes to this move” 1. command input, this is a must QCB+k(k). 2. EX QBomb can absorb 1 hit (non a.b.) plus keep counter hit wall bounce “OR” always wall bounce. If it got both of these things it would be one of the best EX moves in the game, so i’ll only ask for one.

  6. Guacamole- stop trading!!

  7. Splash- Slightly better hitbox, sometimes this misses when it shouldn’t

  8. Fajita- Slightly more projective invc when airborne, i hate being hit with a fireball on the tall end the upward part of this move.

  9. Picadillo Jump- meter build

  10. New Super Jump- Just hear me out 1st! One of El Fuerte’s main tools is him mobility, it only makes sense that he has a SJ. It could also open up new combo potential (cr.hp, SJ, EX QBomb) or something like that. it would also allow him to punish more stuff. His SJ would move faster than his normal jump and make the sound from picadillo jump. Moves that would be SJ cancelable: fr.lk, cr.lk, cr.mk, cr.hp


#9

This will b my 1st fuerte srk post but:

I think fuerte is an ok character but has some flaws that can b fixed to make his gameplay more solid, I don’t want him to be op so but here are my ideas for how they should improve him with balance in mind:

  1. fr.hk- should become an input (back hk). this would an effective tool up close.

  2. overhead- should be throw invc, i don’t see why he can be throw if the animation has him airborne

  3. cr.lk- +1 extra frame of hitstun (+7). its has 5 frame start-up give it something!

  4. cl.lk- 3 frame start-up, ok this one might be a stretch but he could use a 3 frame normal, and it still wouldn’t be a low.

  5. QBomb- “there can b sooo many useful changes to this move” 1. command input, this is a must QCB+k(k). 2. EX QBomb can absorb 1 hit (non a.b.) plus keep counter hit wall bounce “OR” always wall bounce. If it got both of these things it would be one of the best EX moves in the game, so i’ll only ask for one.

  6. Guacamole- stop trading!!

  7. Splash- Slightly better hitbox, sometimes this misses when it shouldn’t

  8. Fajita- Slightly more projective invc when airborne, i hate being hit with a fireball on the tall end the upward part of this move.

  9. Picadillo Jump- meter build

  10. New Super Jump- Just hear me out 1st! One of El Fuerte’s main tools is him mobility, it only makes sense that he has a SJ. It could also open up new combo potential (cr.hp, SJ, EX QBomb) or something like that. it would also allow him to punish more stuff. His SJ would move faster than his normal jump and make the sound from picadillo jump. Moves that would be SJ cancelable: fr.lk, cr.lk, cr.mk, cr.hp


#10
  1. fr.hk- should become an input (back hk). this would an effective tool up close.

  2. overhead- should be throw invc, i don’t see why he can be throw if the animation has him airborne

  3. cr.lk- +1 extra frame of hitstun (+7). its has 5 frame start-up give it something!

  4. cl.lk- 3 frame start-up, ok this one might be a stretch but he could use a 3 frame normal, and it still wouldn’t be a low.

  5. QBomb- “there can b sooo many useful changes to this move” 1. command input, this is a must QCB+k(k). 2. EX QBomb can absorb 1 hit (non a.b.) plus keep counter hit wall bounce “OR” always wall bounce. If it got both of these things it would be one of the best EX moves in the game, so i’ll only ask for one.

  6. Guacamole- stop trading!!

  7. Splash- Slightly better hitbox, sometimes this misses when it shouldn’t

  8. Fajita- Slightly more projective invc when airborne, i hate being hit with a fireball on the tall end the upward part of this move.

  9. Picadillo Jump- meter build

  10. New Super Jump- Just hear me out 1st! One of El Fuerte’s main tools is him mobility, it only makes sense that he has a SJ. It could also open up new combo potential (cr.hp, SJ, EX QBomb) or something like that. it would also allow him to punish more stuff. His SJ would move faster than his normal jump and make the sound from picadillo jump. Moves that would be SJ cancelable: fr.lk, cr.lk, cr.mk, cr.hp


#11

I just want my 500 damage ultra 2 back and make ex guac safe again.


#12

Fix Guacamole trade give tortilla 150 damage again more damage and stun on cl. HP fix the slide through ibuki’s wake up and Elf will be good.


#13

I would say given the Tortilla losing the ability to interrupt the DPs in Vanilla I’d say its warranted.

I wouldnt mind a 500 u2 back either.

EX Guac… I would prefer getting the trade issue dealt with. to be honest.


#14

Four changes:

  • cr.HP, a few frames faster start up(6 frames or so). Would lead to cr.mk rs cr.hp combo but cr.hp isn’t cancelable so not a huge deal.

  • cl.HK, allow for resets after launching, ala Abel(cr.HP xx roll, cr.mp xx roll, mixup). Gives move a usage outside of an “I can’t RSF” punish. Reduce damage to compensate.

  • Shower Kick, add airborne frames. It looks airborne, make it airborne for three of four frames.

  • Gordita Sobat, reduced damage and make FADC-able sooner so you can combo after. Maybe allow for hp xx Sobat FADC, hp xx and so on. Get properly rewarded for predicting a backdash and allows for El Fuertes that can’t RSF have a “ghetto” fierce loop. Maybe delay the active frames on Gordita a frame or two so cl.HP at a distance wont combo to stop 8repRSF, Sobat, FADC, 8repRSF, Sobat, ect., but using two meters to extend combos for 120-200 more damage is not uncommon.

EDIT: How often do y’all run into Quac trades? Is it really that big of a deal? I use cr.HP as my primary AA and use Quac more to train my opponents to “get your ass back here and stop jumping” and I barely remember any Quac trades happening. Raida trades do the same thing. It sucks but it’s part of the game.

EDIT, EDIT: Bomb could use some tweaking but I can’t think of how to adjust them. Maybe Lvl3Bomb is throw invincible for a few frames on start-up? But El Fuerte needs to be weak on wake-up. It’s kinda his defining trait and Achilles Heel.


#15

So we got another 2 weeks to go and I have been thinking.

In General:
El Fuerte has to work for his win. Why can’t they work for their win on Fuerte. I know they’ll keep his damage low.

El Fuerte should be made to be much more slippery. And in order to do this Fuerte should be a mixup when he’s on the defensive.

A More defensive Fuerte

Spoiler

Fuerte can already run the clock like nobody’s business. And while he cant do this against everyone, it would make him multi faceted for different characters. The following would make it better for him to get out of trouble.

~ Much like how Abel’s Tornado Throw works this could be incorporated to his run. regular run is throw invincible. EX Run already takes hits.

~ EX Guacamole should get it’s vanilla recovery back. We are burning a meter to get out. Even then it’s still quite punishable anyway.

~ EX Run should be made into a true reversal, And allow the damn thing to be Negative Edged.

~ His back step should go back farther.

[spoiler=A More EXPLOSIVE Fuerte]

El fuerte I think is generally not feared. Reminds me of what Kai was talking about when he dropped Fuerte. I think I may have hit paydirt with this one…

~ His wall jump. make it faster. that’s right FASTER. one second I am full screen away from you The next I am in your face slapping your shit for a misplaced fireball toss. Reacting to fireballs from full screen would make for an AMAZING damage potential especially with the range of jMP. You can beat a late reaction tiger uppercut with it as is. Imagine the potential. of an even faster wall jump

Guac Trades

Spoiler

It’s not about how often it happens. It’s about how it shouldn’t happen. Or if it does, then it should be an ACTUAL trade. That’s why I feel half damage is fair and an easy way to not even worry about the trade.

Crap like that should be fixed. Cut and dry. I will concede when the move is straight up beat. If we TRADE WE TRADE DAMAGE, if I win, you eat floor.

Quesadilla Bomb

Spoiler

This move still sucks. There’s a ton of ways we can go with this. A friend of mine, a Bison user mentioned how it should get one hit EX Armor on EX.

There’s a few ways we can go with it.
For one it needs a better hit box. It is already risky, has a crap startup, and obscenly unsafe on block, with level 1 being unsafe on hit.
We can reduce it’s startup, this would open a road for more combo opportunity and FRAME traps.
Or we can actually make the damn thing safe. if the opponent is too stupid to punish it when it’s coming, they deserve the chip damage.

Run Specials

Spoiler

Sudden stop is fine.

Tostada press’ hit box needs a tweak. There’s no reason for it to miss when you can see Fuerte’s body touching them.

Fajita Buster should either grab crouchers or get a significant damage and stun buff. Or another idea would be to give the move a longer down time for the opponent to allow fuerte to setup another mixup.

Back Step. This shit needs the same invincibility as backdash.

Gordita Sobat. This move sucks. It combos to super (useless as Fuerte needs the meter), it’s FADCable (useless again), it leaves you at a distance that only allows you to combo ONE jab (really?) and it has to be timed well to beat out backdashes. make the move more active. The opponent should be knocked down on hit with Fuerte recovering significantly faster to allow more of a mixup regardless of hit or block.

Calamari Slide. The move is fine.

Tortilla. Vanilla damage back. we lost the ability to interrupt Ryu and Akuma DPs. Gimme the damage back.

Picadillo Jump. the jump trajectory should be changed to be farther than his normal jump. Picadillo as it is now is basically a back jump that doesn’t let you press buttons. Making him not jump as high and go farther will allow Fuerte an opportunity to land Ultra 1 on a proper read, or at the very least, help his run away game. This would also be VERY good with my previously proposed wall jump change.

Back Run. Instead of transitioning to forward run, just stop at a wall. This should eliminate any worry of a Dead zone glitch.

Normals

Spoiler

This is where it gets tricky. As Fuerte’s Run Stop Pressure would be retarded if we went to far with stuff.

That said:
3f crLK
faster startup/more active frames on clHK
Improved hitbox on far MK, reduced hurtbox.
cancelable crHP
reduced startup on far HP
improved hitbox on second hit of far HK

IMPROVED HIT BOX ON j HP. the damn thing has such a specific range for a cross up it is retarded. Everyone and their mom has easy as shit crossups. This alone would solve his god damn damage problem because now we would have a better way to get that RSF in.


#16

Hi, Fuerte player here, since Vanilla.

I’m really considering this patch because I think Capcom never understand how the character works and how squishy he is, so it’s time to show them what do we want.

I’ll start with the Q-Bomb :

  • I don’t think making a qcf Q-Bomb is the best solution. The problem with the Q-Bomb (in my opinion) is that you don’t get a hardknockdown on-hit. All of the offensive specials Fuerte has, he can follow-up with a vortex because he’s close to his opponent even if he’s quick standing, except for the Q-Bomb. Making it so bad at the risk/reward thing. As for the EX version, it has to be safer on block, not completely safe because of the counter-hit wall bounce.

Now for the rest :

  • Slightly improve his j.HP hitbox so it can hit in guard when the opponent is blocking crossup, it whiffs a lot against some characters.

  • Make the super fully hits on a juggle state opponent midscreen. It’s annoying to hit confirm a damn lvl 3 Q-bomb for only three hits of the super and see his meter gone.

  • Fix the unblockable forward mk overhead against ibuki.

  • Fix the guacamole-trade thing.

  • The forward mk overhead needs to be unthrowable frames 8~17.

  • Slighty improve the hitbox of the tostada press.

  • Make the U1 more viable : improve the damages 470 > 500 OR the distance 2.14 > 2.20.

  • Improve the stun of the cl.HP 150 > 180.

  • Improve the damage of the tortilla 130 > 150, OR the distance 1.73 > 1.80.

  • Make the cr.HP s-cancellable.

  • (Game System) Fix this rollback animation after some normal move on hit. It happens when you hit a certain spot (high) of the opponent’s hurtbox, don’t know how it really works, but it’s so freakin’ annoying when you start a RSF and your second cl.HP whiffs because of that. Especially on AE against Yun…

That’s it for me. I think Fuerte can be too dangerous if we give him too much tools, such as great reversals, so we have to be careful with the buffs. He needs to be as weak on wake up as he is strong on his okizeme.


#17

Yeah I don’t mind his achilles heel being his wake up. But If I read properly, I should get out. Not get hit anyway.


#18

I will explain One of the reasons why Q-bomb as a QCF input may be better. It’s pretty obvious. Fuerte has to give up a button for the QBomb. He must give up throws, integral for defense or the most basic of punishes. He must give up Focus, Again integral for defense. Or he must give up Far/CR HK. two of his better normals. On top of this you must take an action to remove the charge safely. You must Guac, or jump needlessly. Doing this for the move would justify it being unsafe as you would no longer also be surrendering a button. Does that make better sense? Other characters with a charge button(s) like Cody or Balrog have some manner of invincibility on their’s. Fuerte does not. For all that Fuerte gives up, the move should either be more safe, or have an easier input.

Ultra 1 is already quite Viable. The problem with it is that Ultra 2 Outclasses it.

The Hit Reel animation for many characters is retarded. I do hope they fix it.

The jHP needs tweaking certainly. the damn thing whiffs sometimes when the opponent walks forward. It’s bad enough it’s range is dreadfully specific.

I would actually prefer it if Fuerte could get away from being a Vortex character. I want his mixups to be something that says “I mixed you up. Now you must guard my setup for damage” instead of OK! I mixed you up. I’m gonna mix you up again forever.


#19

Well I understand your position, I know all of this (I might didn’t understand what you said but you can safely realease the charge during a backdash, a lk… everything) but… The more you charge, a better version of the move you have right ? With a QCF input, I guess you get the lvl 3 with the HK version ? The light/medium version would be kinda useless, so you need to completely rework the move. And i’m afraid they will nerf the move BECAUSE of the qcf input making it a LOT easier to perform. That’s the only reason why i’m against the qcf input. So maybe let’s think about how the 4 versions should work with a qcf command.


#20

I have been here since birth even though im “retired” I may come back to the squared circle once again like a true luchadores

buffs

-Q bomb should be a QCF + P (it would be a level 2 charge, 3 for ex)

  • Super damage restored for U2
    -should be able to ultra after an ex bomb wall bounce, I feel this “buff” has no reward to it except for distance
  • Run into Q bomb would be sick
  • C.mk x C.Hp is now linkable
  • C.hp should be buffed as an AA
    -guac needs to be fixed, no reason it should trade with a normal

his normals could be better as well

nerfs

-blockstun reduced on q bomb making it easier to punish
-calamari slide being less safe on block
-stun increased by 50
-EX guac