Anti-Sagat notes

sagat

#1

(It’s not much, as I forgot I started writing this and never finished…)

c.HP 1500 +2/+2
7/8/14
29 frames total

Don’t roll against this move. It’s faster than Sakura’s s.HK.


far s.HP 1600 -4/-4
6/8/20
34 frames total

Sagat’s version of Yamazaki s.HK.


far s.MK -12/-12
5/[3,8]/24
40 frames total

Sagat’s biggest opening. Roll through this.


Sagat c.LP is a horrible attack. It has 5 frame startup. Take big advantage of this any time you’re up close. Sakura and the shoto’s c.LK will always beat this attack for a free combo. After knocking Sagat down, use an ambiguous cross-up trick with your roll. If Sagat tried reversal DP but made the input in the wrong direction, he’ll get an accidental c.LP instead! Don’t be afraid to meaty or jab Sagat as he gets up. His tiger uppercut may hurt, but your combo will hurt him even more. The advantage is always in your favor after a knockdown.


#2

any strats for maki vs sagat? i HATE this fight. unless i can link a super in there, i’m dead. my other strategy is to run away. weak.


#3

maki NEEDS to run away… it aint weak… i find myself weak as i see how i got fooled in easting that high grab of hers while trying to block low… just do ur thing, run back and forth, walljump out when youre in the corner… try to irritate… when youre maki, dont try to beat your opponent, but irritate the one playing him


#4

running away only works for so long. i’d rather try and do grab mix ups into the occasional combo. i’m wondering more specific things like which normals have solid priority over some of his attacks. just forget it. i’ll look in the maki threads. sorry i cluttered up this one.


#5

that’s so not true. knockdowns against a lot of characters are 50/50 or neutral if u back away or even in their favor if u back away from fear of getting punished (and the guy needs space to play well…say Remy in 3S).

so it’s not as simple as u put it. In fact, i hate knockdowns against a lot of characters simply because u’d have to be dumb to even test them. Try meaty whatever against a C-Sagat with lvl2. I gaurantee u ur combo with ur character is not worth it in MOST cases, since Sagat does such beastly damage.

I think that knockdowns are best because they put the match in ur favor psychologically. When u both see that the opponent is knocked down, that’s like a big sign saying “YOU JUST GOT HIT”. Even if it’s a simple sweep or whatever, it’s still in ur favor mentally.

But ur right in certain situations. Like if ur getting rushed down or simply overwhelmed because u cant get in against certain annoying characters, knockdowns can help.

Same thing against characters with no super an no real wakeup. It’s nice to get an easy crossup into gaurd crush string agaiinst those guys.

Thats my thoughts on the situation.


#6

The advantage is in your favor after a knockdown because you can choose to do whatever you want.

You can choose to not attack Sagat as he’s getting up, or fake an attack and just block instead. An ambigous roll lets you choose what direction to attack from and if Sagat accidently does an up-close c.LP, c.MP, or c.HP, Sakura’s c.LK will always win.

If Sagat has a level 2, and I know my opponent likes doing wake-up supers, I’ll probably go for a cross-up or custom combo instead. Again, it’s my choice so I always have the advantage after a knockdown.


#7

Re: Re: Anti-Sagat notes

no u don’t man. what if sagat sees u go for a crossup and does a wakeup lvl2 low tiger cannon? it’ll hit u. having a choice doesn’t give you an advantage. if you have a choice between getting shot and getting blown up, that’s not an advantage.

neway, i know what ur saying, so i dont wanna start shit, but i definetly dont think its as advantageous as u put it. The only advantage knockdown has is the mental one. Everything else is fair game for either opponents.


#8

The person who’s getting knocked down is always at a disadvantage. So many options …

Meaty attacks
Faking a meaty to bait a super
Faking a meaty to throw
GC strings
Anti-wake up super
Activate to GC CC
Option Select parrying


#9

u realize those are ALL educated guesses…guesses which have tons of counters depending on what the guy waking up does. Dude…it’s all fucking educated guessing. It’s 50/50 most of the time. It’s only advantageous (AS I PREVIOUSLY SAID) when u take advantage of flaws inherent to a character.


#10

If you know someone down, you’ll ALWAYS have the advantage, as their options are more limited than your options. Depending on the amount of life they have, the options get even more limited. so there’s NO WAY you’re not at an advantage. Maybe unless you’re a scrub.

kcxj: if someone does an ambiguous roll against Sagat, I would think jp uppercut is the last option, so baiting out cr.jab is pretty hard. Most of the time I see people doing mp or fp versions, since if you guessed wrong, you’re screwed either way, so might as well make it hurt if you guessed right. If someone rolls that way, i just “option select” super with qcb x2 mk, for either lvl2 tiger raid, or if they crossed up lvl 2 tiger genocide. either way, it cancels to more hurting with tiger uppercut.

EDIT: my bad on the wrong super, though they’d still be eating either if they rolled beside you.


#11

lol…knocking some1 down ALWAYS creates an advantage? ok there buddy. so in 3s, if i knock hugo (with gigas) down, and im a shoto. I’m at a HUGE advantage right? Cause u know…i may confuse him with my tick throw or overhead…the worst that can happen is u know…just Gigas…but that does only 10-15% damage right? Right? Like my throw or random uppercut will do way more. I’m such at an advantage. :rolleyes:

And about the “option select” (another gay term i hate)…low tiger shot is QCB+PUNCH, not kick…u would get the tiger genocide if u did it ur way…which would do basically no damage.

EDIT:

Fuck it, i’ll give a real example.

Remy (SA1…1 bar) vs. Makoto (SA2…1 bar)

Remy knocks down Makoto.

Remy can meaty (NOTE THE DEFINITION OF MEATY)…
-then Makoto may do a random guessing parry and guess right. Remy gets stunned and die.
-Remy hits, and then he has to link something into super…which btw, is a MUCH harder and concentration intensive option then Makoto’s parry, karasuka…then she has 2 minute to wait and combo)
-Makoto parries wrong and may eat one of Remy’s HUGELY devestating combos of DOOM.
-Makoto blocks…wow. Remy has CRAZY mixups…watchout mak!

This is just a simple scenario…but one that is obviously in favor of Makoto just cause Remy doesn’t hurt Mak that much, but Makoto can kill Remy in one combo using 1 super #2


#12

Wrong game buddy. if you look above…this is the cvs2 forum…so please use REAL examples.


#13

yamazaki with meter against anyone. What are you gonna do? U gonna get up close so he can grab super you? Or maybe you wanna bait one out so he can air super you? Or maybe you’re gonna do your lvl3 to beat his throw super? Or maybe even stay outside the range of his super and poke him? But then he can do lvl3 Anti-air super to catch ur poke. Or maybe he’ll roll and throw super u anway.

It all comes down to educated guessing + character advantages + INTUITION. Knocking down never has and never WILL provide AUTOMATIC advantage to the one who got the knockdown.


#14

Being knocked down you have far less options. You either stick out an invincible move ie dragon/super, throw/tech throw, or block. ALL of which, are based completely guessing on what the other person is doing. Now, you have to know exactly what the person is going to be doing, and have a counter for it. Its not always easy to know what they are doing. They have the opportunity to play mind games, while you are on the ground… this is why knocking down gives advantage. They play mind games, while you have to guess.


#15

it doesn’t matter how many options they have because they could have 3939 options and they guy getting up can still neutralize all of them (as long as the character has the TOOLS necessary…which is what i’m saying) with just a few of his own options.

u say the guy getting up has to guess, yet the guy standing up knows exactly what’s going to happen? The risk is equal for BOTH as long as each has the tools to punish the options given to either.

EDIT:

and those options u gave are so limited.

-invincible move
-RC’ed safe move
-RC’ed invincible move
-jump
-roll
-block and counter roll
-block and alpha counter
-block
-stick out a normal
-RC hopback type move (blanka/vega)
-super
-parry
-jd
-dodge

And because of the fact that there are SO many options for both ppl, and because different character have different strengths and weaknesses, THE GETUP GAME TOTALLY DEPENDS ON THE CHARACTERS.


#16

Um, you basically listed what I did with the addition of parry and just defend. If you are being knocked down and you just randomly wake up with something without basing it on what you think the person standing above you is going to do then you need to re-think what you are doing. The person standing up doesnt do something based on what he thinks you are goin gto do, he makes you think he is going to do something and then does the counter to it. IE, throw set up, but then get a counter hit short.

and RC’d invincible move? RCing makes ALL moves invincible for a period of time.

And btw, I did list invincible move, this covers supers, dragon punches, hop back moves, and RC’s.

Again, if you are like “hmmm, im going to wake up with an rc” and dont even think what they are doing… it makes no sense. You RC because you have no option (ie no super and no life) and you think they are sticking out a poke. Why do you think they are sticking out a poke? Perhaps they did the same set up before, or perhaps their distancing makes you believe that. You might be right, or you might be wrong, it doesnt mean you always lose the wake up mind game if you get knocked down, it means if you’re knocked down you can play NO mindgames.

Blocking and alpha countering/counter roll? if they jab you? then you wasted a meter, if you try to do it on the next one? What if they are tick throwing you?

Stick out a normal move? Why would you do this? Because they let you get up at a safe distance and didnt stick out a meaty? How do you know they didnt time it so you think they let you up, so they can counter hit you?

I listed 3 basic options because that’s pretty much what you are left with, the mind game sand bait/punishing will lead to similar outcomes… whether you throw a dragon punch, super, or unsafe RC… you still get punished the same, and if they “made you” do it then they are still blocking…

You make the wake up game sound like a game of Rock Paper Scissors where you throw out a move and look at the outcome. The wake up is by no means a 50/50 game. Neither is it 100/0 game. But it is definately in the favour of the person standing.


#17

It IS 50/50 in the general sense…because u dont know what they are going to do. YOU ARE GUESSING. YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE YOUR BAIT. YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THEY ARE EVEN AT A HIGH ENOUGH LEVEL TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU COULD BE TRYING TO DO.

Read the caps part and think about that. Then tell me that knock down is always an advantage.

EDIT:

And i added the RC invincible move for a reason. A jab uppercut on wakeup will beat crouching meaty attacks and such, but it will not beat SOME lvl3 supers. An RC’ed jab uppercut will IIRC because the full body invincibility from the roll is longer then the jab uppercut’s.


#18

Re: Re: Re: Anti-Sagat notes

Quoted. am i the only person who thought that was funny?

anyways, put it this way. the person knocked down is at a disadvantage. Here’s an example. chun vs ken, both of them have no meter. chun get’s knocked down and ken closes in. chun has these options: Block, sbk, lightning legs, fireball, attempt a throw or wakeup with any of her normals (c.jab, c.short, etc…). Ken on the other hand can do a lot more: jump crossup, empty jump, jump in attack, command or normal roll crossup, meaty attack, RC, tick throw, bait an attack, overhead (not likely). All these options put ken at an advantage. Y? becuase most likely chun will block. more options = advantage. If i had the option of being shot or blown up, i’d rather be shot. Becuase if i was shot there it’s much much more likely that i would live.


#19

This man is playing EX-Groove with unlimited points, plus infinite bar apparently, and can dodge AND roll as an option.

You do realized that RC hopback with blanka is useless, since the hop itself already has invincibility frames, and RC it only makes the move slower. Extra invincibility frames will be useless, as any attack that would’ve hit the normal hop back will still hit the rc hop back.


#20

Why are you guys ruining my thread by arguing with Geese?